USA JAA schools? / FAA to JAA is it really a no no?

[Flygirl77]

Can anyone advise?

Have my PPL but am looking to go all the way, and given that the UK is so ludicrously expensive, can anyone recommend any US JAA/JAR schools? (I know they exist!)....and when they say they offer ATPL ground + CPL/IR + MCC, is that all you need bar some hour building,to take you to the industry?

Also, is the transfer of an FAA licence to a JAA really so dreadfully awfull? I get the feeling it is to be avoided at all costs.

thanks in advance.

p.s. before anyone sends any annoyed replies, yes I did do a search on the subjuect for previous similar questions.. . <img src="confused.gif" border="0">

[MVE]

Hi,. .For JAA approved schools check out the CAA FCL website where you find them listed and then do a search specifically for those schools on wannabes.

There is only one JAA school in SA at the moment and they charge approx' what you pay in the US but they include food and accom' so it would be cheaper than USA.

As to converting any other license including FAA, due to changes at the CAA you will no longer get any credit for IR taught anywhere else than under JAR and so have to do the complete IR course, regardless of who taught you and most likely the complete ATPL exams. So obviously a waste of time and money doing any other course but JAA approved after PPL and 150 hours total.

So you could do as I am and do 0-160hrs including food, accom. and lots of multi time for about 8.5 grand in South Africa and then bide your time and complete a CPL, Exams and IR at a JAA approved school when the job market looks better.

I would also suggest you give a great deal of thought as to how you fly the hour building, 150 hours of holding patterns over swamps would obviously be less usefull than planned crosscountry with regular check flights to ensure you aren't picking up any/many bad habits.

Best of luck and if you want any of my research on US/SA/GB/Spanish schools drop me an email.. .Good luck,. .Regards Rodders.

[SFO to BRU]

There are a few schools in the US that I've found. One is International Flight Training. .(001 561 463 7373 Fax: 001 561 463 7178. .E mail: [email protected]). .another is European flight training (Tel / Fax: 001 561 466 4757 Email:[email protected]. .website: EUROPEAN FLIGHTTRAINING.COM)

Both are in Florida. I like the people at Int. Fl. Tr. Very helpful for me. You can also try Western Michigan University. I know they do couses.

So far as converting the FAA ATP, I can tell you from experience, because that is what I am trying to do right now. It's a nightmare. And you can look at, if you don't have at least 1500 hours of multicrew aircraft (like a B737)time, having to do the IR and TRTO course anyway. It's a lot easier to convert the other way, so my advice is go with the JAA lic. first, and if you want to fly in the US, convert it.

[EX FTE]

Support the advice to look at the CAA website:

<a href="http://www.srg.caa.co.uk/pld/fcl/fcl_information.asp" target="_blank">CAA SRG Flt Crew Licenses</a>

They list all the approved schools for JAA FCL.

From my humble experience, let me raise a flag for you on the overseas schools. When talking to them be sure that you understand where the training is conducted. Some of the schools advertise that you can do it all in the USA but then in teeh course details you find that actually the check rides and some of the IR is done at a sister school in the UK.

I had the good fortune to be working in the USA while flying so I could pay the bills etc. Assuming you are a Brit with no right to work in the US, you may wish to weigh the options of sunny overseas flying but with no income against the perils of UK weather but maybe retaining some form of job?

I am at the start of my CPL, having the ATPL writtens done and the required hours in the book.

Drop me a line if you want to chat some more.

[aztruck]

At the risk of being shot down in flames..... .The UK/Jar IR is highly procedural and does not encourage a flexible approach to coducting an IFR flight. It is envisaged that you are always working in a very regulated environment, ie, where holds are published rather than plucked out of the air, and where you expect to fly the approach you have planned, and where all the navaids work, and where all your instruments work until the examiner tells you otherwise.. .The US is different, the rating is very pragmatic, and the examiner will NOT tell you he is about to fail the dme/vor/glideslope, but will simply distract you for a second and pull the CB.. .Expect engine failures any old time, and the examiner is also ATC and can ask you to do pretty much anything.. .All this may not help you jump through the JAR hoops, but consider that the US IR can be had for little more than the cost of the equivalent in Multi time building in the UK.. .Consider also the number of N reg aircraft that need IR safety pilots in the UK and/or the chance of cheaper flying in an N reg twin to gain actual IR experience in the Jar environment.. .Its like what the actor James Mason said when he was doorstepped by a jobbing wannabe at an airport.. ."What advice would you have about training to be an actor Mr Mason?". ."PRACTICAL experience dear boy..."was the reply.. .Oh yes...and its bloody good fun.

[EX FTE]

AZTruck: I will hold off on the flamethrower just now. Yes there are differences between US & EU philosophies - such is the nature of the beast. Also, it is why FAA & JAA have a working group looking at eventual standardisation and harmonisation - but dont hold your breath!!

You suggest considering the number of N-plates (in UK or europe for that matter) that need safety pilots and hence may offer a good way of hours building. Interesting approach - any idea what the stats are? i.e.. .How many N-plated IR twins are there based here?. .How many of those are operated by local crews?. .Who some of these people are?

You seem to have the FAA IR by the nature of your reply - are you one of the aforementioned safety pilots?

Curious - especially since I am about to start the job hunt!!

[englishal]

Well, for less than the price of the JAA zero to frozen ATPL at OAT you can go to the US, get a commercial with CFI / CFII ratings, teach for a couple of years (getting paid $ 25 per hr), get your FAA ATP, convert to JAA (including doing IR course and ATPL exams) and come out of it all with a FAA ATP, JAA ATPL and 1500 hrs. I know who I'd rather employ given the choice between a fresh out of OAT Frozen ATPLer or an 1500 hour, ex instrument instructor.

Aztruck is right when he mentions that the FAA examiner can do what he wants. During my Multi check ride, an engine was failed on the runway during the roll....no prior warning to either ATC or me (Oh and had to do a single engine VOR app into Catalina if anyone knows this one).

Cheers

EA

[EX FTE]

Not an unreasonable answer that last one but some points to note:

To be employed & earn cash as a Flt instructor in the states, you do need a visa (such as the J-1). Such visas are educational / training visas and assume that you are starting your study at a relatively inexperienced level. Now if you have a PPL and around 100hrs, you are in fact over qualified for the J1 - you really need to go the ab-initio route in the USA if at all. Turning up with 150hrs & IMC for example is not what they want. Basically the INS are saying "if you invest a certain amount of cash here we will let you stay a while and earn a crust". The more hours in your log book to start with, they reason, the less you will invest.

Given the current hysteria in the USA (from where I have just returned) regarding training of pilots from overseas, you can expect your visa application to attract more than usual attention!! Also, while there is still a demand for new pilots to be trained there, it is flat (according to AOPA) and there are lots of wannabee pilots who thought they would be in the regionals by now but are in fact still instructing!

As you point out, at the end of a couple of years you will have 1500hrs TT in your logbook. But thats a couple of years away. If you dont mind the timeframe on $25/hr (40hrs billed per week equates to $4000 a month before tax and living expenses) then go for it. BUT at the end of that you still have to fork out the money for your JAA IR & ATPL writtens. And cover iving costs bask in the EU for months that will take.

So the summary appears to be:

a) Go USA - lots of hours (albeit VFR with newbies in C-152s etc), some payback during the 2 yrs but still have to do the expensive part of the EU training (the IR)

b) Stay EU - less hours but all done in the local climates in a shorter elasped time and only pay for the licenses you need

Airline hiring stats I suspect may well show an indifference to either method. I believe (and I may be wrong in this one) that 1500hrs giving dual in a C-152 or the like is very very good on the CV but fundamentally, we are all entry level pilots who will be hired on a combination of factors, hours in the log book being just one. Your personality, age, overall life experineces and ability to fit into your prospective employer being others.

Ooops did I just get on a soapbox? Sorry! No offence intended - just a viewpoint!!

I guess it is all a question of choices - each has its pros & cons. Good luck to all whichever way you go!

[englishal]

Of course there is also the small chance that the JAA may change and decide to give credit to ICAO IR holders, so in a couple of years you "may" not have to do the full JAA IR course ! Slim hope I know.... <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

Cheers

EA

[inverted flatspin]

Don't forget that half of the FAA/JAA equation is the FAA, although they are slow to regulate and take away privillages already allowed they are well cabable of out regulating anyone.

I speak of the FAR's part129 specifically. It is not beyond the scope of possibility that the FAA may promulgate a regulation requiring all operators and countries of registry of foreign aircraft to comply with a mutual licence recognition statute.

Remember that The FAA is not only the regulator but also the promoter of american aviation and has a duty to help all those flight schools in this country.

AOPA is a very strong lobby over here and if 300000 people call their congressmen, as they have done in the past, things have a way of getting done.

The ball would then be in Europes Court.

Recognise FAA licenses and ratings or don't fly here (that means airlines).

[onehunga]

Some further points worth mentioning. Firstly undertake a search on PPRUNE for any flight schools that you are considering. You will be surprised by the varied feedback that many of them get. Dont be lead by "flash" adverts in the back of Flyer or Pilot. Generally speaking these schools get the worst feedback. Secondly, I was in the states late last year completing my PPL and hour building. The instructors were not getting enough hours post 11th. All had factored on about 100 per month in order to reach the magical 1500 but many were only getting 20 or so. As they only get paid for when they fly they were having a very grim time of it. Good luck, if you need more info then email me.

[Skaz]

FLYGIRL77:. .In South Africa there are a few schools you can research, 43 AirSchool in Port Alfred is very popular, not bad either. I went there.. .Around the Eastern Cape and Cape Town there are quite a few other schools as well.Check out the website for Aero Africa , World Airnes, SA Flyer magazines.. .Also in Johannesburg there are a few good schools like Flight Training College of South Africa. Their commercial pilot's notes are THE ones to have if you are studying for your comm in RSA.. .Also US$/Rand exchange rate good, for you...

Now a question:. .Where can I find out re FAA Commercial ME/IFR license/ratings as well as FAA instructor license?. .I am planning to move o USA in a few years and would like to start swotting the theory if possible.Any info greatly appreciated.

Also, anyone out there knows anything about American South West airlines/or Southwest ?. .thanks. .Skaz

[Julian]

I have used two schools I know on the West coast of the US, one purely instructs and the other instructs and rents.

The one which purely instructs was actually BUSIER post Sept 11th and the one which instructs and rents had not seen any dwindling in student numbers but had lost 40% of its renting business. Now when I was there last there will still a lot of Enhanced Class B restrictions in force and from speaking to the school owner this seemed to be was putting people off and leading them to cancel their holiday.

The instructors were all very busy (I was over undertaking the FAA IR), with a lot still around into the evening! The $4000/month is not unrealistic as chatting to guys there on their earnings its pretty average!

The other thing to point out is that the smart route is get your MEI/MEII out of the way pronto! Their were guys there with 2500+ hours who couldnt go for the majors due to ME time. Other instructors had over the 100 hours required as they were instructing ME as they had got their ticket early.

Julian.

Julian.

[Canada Goose]

Rodders, et al.

Since when has JAA made a decision not to give any credit for an ICAO IR rating ? My info up to a coupe of months ago, including Clive Hughes' book "GTGACPL" issued November 2001, claims that a 5 hour credit is given towards the JAA IR for those holding a valid ICAO IR rating !

Has this now been changed, and thus made the info in Clives' Nov 2001 edition pertaining to this obsolete ??

T.I.A.

CG.

<img src="confused.gif" border="0">

[EX FTE]

From the JAA website licensing section

<a href="http://www.jaa.nl/licensing/FCL_newsletter_3.html#5" target="_blank">http://www.jaa.nl/licensing/FCL_newsletter_3.html#5</a>

"Most questions normally ask how a person can convert their licence to the JAA equivalent licence. In order for conversion of Licences to take place, a bi-lateral air safety agreement (BASA) needs to be signed by a JAA member State and the non-JAA State. Negotiations with non-JAA Authorities from around the globe are required in order to develop these agreements. Since the primary task of all JAA States is to implement the new JAR-FCL regulations, these negotiations will take some time to initiate, plan and develop.

At this time of issue of this newsletter no agreement have been finalised.

A programme is being furthered with the FAA, but the process is lengthy and will take some time develop.

The current text on the regulation of conversion of licences is found under JAR-FCL 1.015(c)."

[MVE]

Canada Goose,

You are quite correct, as per CAA/JAR rules , 5hrs would be credited.

BUT, I was answering a specific enquiry where no IR course had yet been completed and stand by my point that it is not good financial sense to go and do an ICAO IR elsewhere, only to come back to the UK and have to still do a 50 hour IR course! (Unless you know somewhere I can do an ICAO IR that costs less than 5hrs of IR training at home, in which case where? and I'll enrole)

As with any reply you get to enquiries on this website, contact the CAA and get it from the horses mouth or you risk ending up looking like a horses ar#e and a lot poorer!

Regards Rodders

[FL395]

Hey Flygirl77. .okay i guess you really need to ask yourself one question.....Where do you see yourself flying once you get your licence??? in the UK or do you want to work in the US.

Me i got my FAA CPL ME IR and then came home and converted under the old system.Luckily i got in before the JARs came in. I had to do the ATPL exams and then sit the 2 flight tests. Some time was required flying at home before i got the sign off but little really and the wx was a royal pain in the ass taking 12hrs in 3months doing it whilst keeping down a day job....but i got there in the end.. .I'm keeping both my options open because i would like to fly in either the US or Europe and now hold the 2 licences...... .Also....i would work pretty much anywhere else in the world and some countries recognise the JAA licence and others the FAA so i've the best of both worlds..... .My advice is ring the CAA or better still go in and say hello and be very specific as to what you are trying to find out and then see if you do go to a JAR school in the US what benefit it will do you....if any...... .some UK schools have ties with schools in the US so check them ALL out before you leap and spend any money.. .They will all promise you the world...but really you gotta remember wx/tech problems and other students too..... .I'm happy where i am i will go to either country and fly.....but like i said at the start you gotta ask yourself WHAT are you REALLY looking for as an end result and then works towards that result.

Remember......we are all in the gutter but some of us are looking at the stars......

Who wanted to know about SouthWest....there is also a SkyWest airline too...mail me...

[Canada Goose]

Rodders/Ex FTE,

Thanks for clearing my query up, and yes Rodders, you're quite right it doesn't make too much sense for someone from the UK to do another ICAO IR only to come back and have to redo the JAR IR. But for those who do hold or who will hold an ICAO multi IR, it is a small mercy that they are given a 5 yr credit. Another point worth bearing in mind is that someone who already holds an IR will hopefully find the JAA IR much easier having already been used to IR flying and would hopefully be capable of passing the IR within the minimum requirement. How many people have overun the IR minimum requirement ? I like to think of it as a refresher course ! Besides it's all hours and more experience at the end of the day and as another person earlier on mentioned - the FAA had a much more practical approach to IR flying !

Cheers,. .CG. <img src="wink.gif" border="0">

[englishal]

I think you'll find there is no credit given under JAR....Just an IMC rating by the CAA. Last time I searched, even an ICAO IR holder has to complete the FULL JAA course.

Main point being if you already have held an IR for the past couple of years, when you come to do the JAR IR course, you should pass first time, with no extra (bloody expensive) hours to pay for. Although 50 hrs is the minimum, its not guaranteed...But if you've been instructing instruments in a ME aircraft, for a while, you should be "good enough" even for JAA!!!

Cheers. .EA

[Matthewjharvey]

Some good points made above. Let me tell you my story if it doesn't bore you too much. I went to the US in 1999 and obtained my FAA CPL/IR/CFI/CFII/MEI and then in the next two years on a J1 visa I obtained 1500 hours including 600 hours multi engine piston time. Despite all this experience I was obviously disappointed to have to jump through all the hoops to obtain the JAR CPL/IR. I returned home last July and used PPSC and Bristol D/L to complete the JAR ATPL's by November.. .I started my CPL training (to requirement of school not the 25hour minimum) at the beginning of November and finished a couple of weeks later - straightforward first time pass but it took about 13 hours just to familiarise myself completely with the airspace, R/T and UK procedures. Started IR in January, tried valiantly to persuade CAA that I didn't need full 50 hours - no luck of course, they are such a bureaucratic dinosaur it is unbelievable. Passed IRT and MEP at first attempt after minimum 50 hours (5 hour credit for having CPL) with no problems. Incidentally if you have over 100 hours multi time their is no minimum requirement for the MEP and you don't need to do the ground work or exam for it.. .Now looking for jobs - it is going to be hard and take a while but I fancy my chances over 300 hour JAR frozen ATPL'ers.. .The cost of what I have completed is as follows :

FAA PPL/CPL/IR/CFI/CFII/MEI - 27000 USD = £20000. .JAR theory = £2700. .JAR CPL = £3000. .JAR IR/MEP = £12000. .MCC and other costs = £3500

Total about £41000

Now I could have done it all in the UK but it would have cost more and I would only have 300 hours or so. I am glad I went to the US but in the current situation I don't believe it is such a good idea as it was a few years ago. Anyway I hope I haven't bored you too much and I hope this helps someone.

Good luck

[Megaton]

Good luck with the job hunting, Greaser. And congrats on the first time IR pass (as if you wouldn't!).

[apruneuk]

The 5 hour dispensation is granted to holders of ICAO CPLs, not IRs. I believe that until June this year there is a dispensation granted for holding a UK IMC rating (about 15 hours I believe). Speak to FCL at the CAA and they will send you a foreign licence conversion pack.

[apruneuk]

P.S

40 of the 55 hours can be done in an approved simulator - probably not a great idea for a new instrument pilot but a good way for a non-JAA IR older to save a few bucks.