Logging as safety pilot

[andrewc]

There was I this morning, having fun flying my
aerial beast across the landscape following various
radio fluences from point to point with my trusty
safety pilot keeping me from inadventent
misadventure.

The interesting question that arose was whether
and how he could log the time spent...?

Now I was certainly the responsible pilot, hence P1,
and this was not a multicrew m/c...however we were
actually performing in a multicrew role.

So should he be able to write P2 in his log book for
this time - opinions requested,

-- Andrew

[Keef]

Unless you agree to "share" the time between takeoff and touchdown, there's nothing he can log. If you were P1 in a single-crew aircraft, that's it.

When I do my FAA IR "currency" flights, I get a friend with an IMC to be safety pilot while I bimble around under the hood. I have to record his name etc in my log, but he doesn't get to log any of the time. He doesn't "need" hours, so doesn't care.

[mattpilot]

I disagree - at least from an FAA standpoint.

Anytime a required flight crew member must be present on board, he may log it. When your in your Single Engine plane under the hood, you MUST, according to the FARs, have a second flight crew member. This makes the second person a "required flight person" and therefore he can log SIC time. However, this time is only added to the "total flight time". You could log it as P2, but is it worth wasting a column for it when your not gonna do much of it ? - unless you plan on logging your professional co-pilot time in the same logbook you used for your training - some people dont have professional logbooks when they are students (like me).

Oh, and i can back this up in the FARs, dunno really what your CAA says but it sure is allowed in the FAA and i know of a couple of people who do it. Plus my instructor(s) agree with me. :)

[englishal]

This makes the second person a "required flight person" and therefore he can log SIC time

Wrong, the safety pilot can also log PIC time....There is a big difference between the JARs and FARs, under JAR the safety pilot can not log anything, unless as mentioned before you 'share' the time. Under the FARs both the pilot under the hood and the safety pilot can log PIC time. The safety pilot must be qualified and current on type, and the flight must be conducted in VMC unless the safety pilot holds an IR.

If the pilot under the hood does not hold an IR, the safety pilot does hold an IR, and the flight is condicted in IMC, then the pilot 'under the hood' cannot log PIC.

Cheers
EA;)

[mattpilot]

i wouldn't say "wrong", ... there are a couple of scenarios. 2 that come to mind at the moment


1. hood pilot is legal PIC & is sole manipulator of controls - Safety pilot only gets to log SIC

2. hood pilot is flying, but not legal PIC - he gets to log PIC because he is the "sole manipulator of the controls" - safety pilot is legal PIC, but is not doing anything - he gets to log PIC too

[BEagle]

I once logged P2 time for a flight in a Piper Cub! The radio had failed, we needed to get back to our aerodrome in Class D airspace and the other guy (P1C) hadn't got enough hands to fly the ac in bumpy air whilst talking on the hand-held. So I reasoned I was a 'required operating crew member' on that specific occasion!

[englishal]

MattPilot,

1. hood pilot is legal PIC & is sole manipulator of controls - Safety pilot only gets to log SIC
The Safety pilot DOES get to log PIC, I think SIC is intended for aircraft requireing more than one pilot to operate. I'll dig out the relevant FAR when I have time...
hood pilot is flying, but not legal PIC - he gets to log PIC because he is the "sole manipulator of the controls" - safety pilot is legal PIC, but is not doing anything - he gets to log PIC too
When you say 'legal' PIC what do you mean? To log PIC the pilot must be qualified on type, or a student on authorised solo. In instrument flight training, as the pilot is 'qualified' on type (ie. SE PPL holder) and in VMC then the pilot under training is entitled to log PIC as they are fully qualified. If however they fly into IMC, this person flying is no longer 'qualified' and can now not log PIC The safety pilot can always log PIC, while the other pilot is flying by sole reference to the instruments, in VMC. If IMC is entered, so long as the safety pilot holds an IR (and the pilot under training doesn't), he can continue to log PIC as he now is in command of the aircraft (ie. the only one qualified to fly in IMC). If the pilot flying holds the IR and the safety pilot doesn't then the safety pilot can no longer log PIC (obviously)...

Cheers
EA;)

[mattpilot]

i think you are a little confused :) no big deal - i'll help you out :D


I'm sure you heard of Rod Machado and i'm sure you heard of AOPA. They both say it the way i say it. You saying we, and the FARs, are wrong? :cool:

You say you can quote it in the fars - please do, because so can i.


When i say "legal PIC" i mean the designated PIC who is responsible for the flight. The Fars allow the following people to log PIC time:

- sole occupant of aircraft (duh)
- sole manipulator of (controls) aircraft
- responsible pilot - legal PIC

legal PIC can be designated at any point before or during the flight - and can be changed. This is why flight instructors can log PIC. They are responsible for the flight, but the student is the manipulator of the controls - so both get to log PIC (if infact the student already has a PPL license). If the Flight instructor does not have a medical, he can still teach (only in VMC and people with PPL or better), but he can't log PIC because he can't be person legaly in command.
-------

Lets start from the beginning.

Situation 1:

Left Seat(LS) is hood guy with basic PPL.
Right Seat (RS) is safety pilot with basic PPL.

LS pilot is designated PIC and is sole manipulator of controls.
RS pilot is only safety pilot.

In this case, only the LS pilot may log PIC while the RS is acting as a REQUIRED FLIGHT crew member (fars say that he is required under simulated instrument so he is a "required flight crew member"), he may only got SIC. If you look in the fars under "SIC logging", you can read that any required flight crew member, who is not any of the 3 examples above, may log SIC.


Situation 2:

LS is hood guy with basic PPL.
RS is safety pilot with basic PPL.

LS is only sole manipulator of controls.
RS is Designated PIC and is also the safety Pilot.

In this case, LS gets to log PIC because he is one of the 3 examples above, and the RS gets to log PIC because he is also one of the 3 above.



Understand? This is what has been published in AOPA and this is what Rod Machodo told me in an e-mail after i asked him the same thing. And anybody with a FAR/AIM can read this in the book - mind you, i did even before i got AOPA flight mag and before i asked Rod.

[Keef]

I think we're all agreeing. My understanding is:

In the UK, flying a G-reg aircraft that only requires one crewmember, only one person can log flight time at any one time. If two of you share a trip, you can share the total time - for example, start time 0900, end time 1200, log 90 minutes each.

If one of the two has an FAA IR and is flying a G-reg under the hood to keep FAA IR currency, and the other is lookout (within the terms of his licence and ratings), then only the "P1" can log it.

If it's N-reg, whether in the UK or the USA, both the "P1" and the "Safety pilot" can log it as P1. Different rules.

Hope that's right!

[maggioneato]

I flew safety pilot for three years for a pilot with a safety pilot restriction on his medical. Was'nt sure how to log this flying, so checked with the CAA, their view was, that I should log that time as P2 as I was there for a reason, and all other right seat flying as supernumery (SNY), so that 's what I did.

[englishal]

MattPilot,

Technically you're right, but .....

In your scenario 1, when practicing instruments in VMC with a safety pilot, then both can log PIC as the safety pilot really HAS to be "legal" PIC (only one who can see out of the window / responsible for the flight)...Yet the hooded guy can also be PIC while sole manipulator of the controls. It would not make sense for the guy looking out of the window NOT to be PIC for the purpose of the flight. Ok, technically the safety pilot could NOT be PIC but SIC, but I for one wouldn't act as safety pilot unless it had been agreed beforehand that I was PIC for the following reasons:

The main reason to agree beforehand that the safety pilot is PIC is that if any airspace violations, non-compliance with ATC instructions, near mid air collision, and runway incursions on the ground occour, the safety pilot (PIC) is responsible. If this hasn't been agreed beforehand, and an accident occours then the safety pilot may find themselves in trouble. Even if it was agreed beforehand that the safety pilot was SIC, after an accident stories can be changed ("honest guv, he said he was PIC";)), and the safety pilot may find themselves unwittingly in trouble.....Its always best to assume and agree that the safety pilot is PIC (and log time as such of course).

Cheers
EA :)

[BlueLine]

Wendy,

Sounds like you received duff gen from a clerk! You can only log flight time as a Safety Pilot, if you actually have to take over control i.e. the PIC becomes incapacitated and you swap roles. As most of the others have said you cannot log P2 in an aircraft certified for one pilot.

In Beagles case he was a Flight Radiotelephony Operator which according to the ANO is a flight crew member.

In reality you can log anything you like, it just won't count for anything.

[BEagle]

Quite so! In fact I wasn't able to do much actual poling as there were no instruments in the back and it was so noisy I had to devote all my time to faffing with the Icom handheld.

I'm rapidly coming round to the view that, in UK ac, any flight with a FI and the FI logs the whole flight as P1C. The other pilot can log what the heck he/she pleases as it won't count towards any licensing hours requirements - but NOT P1C! Note that I say FI, not Authorised Examiner - successful flight tests are logged as P1CU/S by the applicant.

[maggioneato]

Hi Blueline. would have suited me better not to have so many p2 hours in my logbook, who can we ask if the CAA can't get the answer right? I fly for fun so it was'nt important to me to have as many hours as I could get.:confused:

[englishal]

Although I believe the FAA's way of doing things does seem 'fair', especially if acting as safety pilot in the LA basin or similar other VERY busy areas. Probably the equivalent of driving down the M25 blindfolded with your mate telling you what to avoid:D

Cheers
EA:D

[mattpilot]

good thing we have that settled :D :cool: