IFR Flight - Through Manchester TMA

[STurns]

I'm popping down to White Waltham from Carlisle this week and thought i'd route via POL, TNT and DTY. What are the Manchester controllers like for clearances through their zone?

I'm IMC not IR rated so i'll have to stick to Class D which in between POL and DTY is max. 3500MSL (or is it 3,499!).

Ta,

Dean

PS Whats White Waltham like too - first time there.

[FlyingForFun]

ST,

Can't help with Manchester, never flown around there. But I can help with White Waltham, since it's where I'm based.

It's a beautiful airport - many people complain it's a little expensive, but apart from that I love it. There are a couple of things to be aware of.

The runways can be a bit bumpy (what are you flying?), but that shouldn't be a problem.

It can be tricky to find, especially if approaching from the north. I'd suggest that you route via point Whisky, which is on the edge of Reading, west of the airfield, even though this might not be the most direct way of approaching. (The VRPs are shown in Pooleys, and the flooded gravel pits at point whisky are marked on the 1/2-million chart as lakes, and are indistinguishable from lakes from the air.) From the VRP, it's a simple matter of following the railway line to the east, and you'll see the airfield directly to the south of the railway line. If you decide not to take my advice and to approach from the north, there's a reasonable-sized rectangular clump of trees on a hill to the north of the airfield which can help point you in the right direction, and it helps to find Maidenhead and locate the airfield on the corner of the town, but it's much harder.

The other thing you need to be aware of are the published circuits. The airfield is very noise-sensitive, and you should definitely phone for a briefing before you go. The circuit diagrams are all on the website - print them off, and take them with you. Call up for joining information nice and early, then study the circuit diagram for the relevant runway before you get close to the ATZ.

Be aware that the eastern half of the ATZ is actually class A - there are special rules which allow you to fly there without talking to ATC, so long as you're joining or flying in the circuit, and not above 1500'. The overhead join is at 1300' so as not to infringe this rule, and the circuit is at 800'. When in the circuit, don't go east of the A404M - that will keep you in the ATZ, and avoid annoying the boys and girls at Heathrow.

Once you've negotiated all that, you'll find a very helpful, true A/G radio service (as opposed to one which pretends to be Heathrow Approach), a whole bunch of interesting aircraft to look at on the ground or watch in the circuit, staff and pilots who are friendly and helpful, and good food (and beer, too, if you're not flying back that day). I'm sure you'll enjoy it!

Have a great trip! :)

FFF
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[Edit to add that there are several non-radio aircraft based at the field, so keep your eyes open!]

[Aussie Andy]

Ditto all the good stuff that FFF says about White Waltham! (I am based at nearby Wycombe). Sorry but I too can offer no info re- Manchester Class D.

FFF: I have been into Waltham a few times and will be flying in there again this Sunday (to introduce a mate who lives in Reading to the club there as he is keen to start PPL). Maybe you can help me with a question: I believe that there is a convention on grass strips to land on one side (left?) and t/off on the other (right?) in order to reduce/spread the wear & tear. Is this right, and do I have it the right way around? Or does it not matter?

Cheers,

[FlyingForFun]

Never heard of that, AA.

The management at Waltham do ask pilots not to land on the centre line, especially in winter - if every pilot landed on the centre line, the runway would very quickly become unusable, whereas it survives most winters if the damage is spread across the width of the runway more evenly. But I've never heard of any convention about landing one side and taking off on the other. Willing to be corrected if anyone else knows differently, though.

FFF
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[DesignerChappie]

Before I start I'm not a pilot so some of the info is a bit sketchy. But i've flown as pax a few times to Blackpool from Woodford and Manchester.

Almost certainly you will have to use the low level corridor that virtually follows the M6 and the West Coast Railline to Crewe. The visual reporting point for this is Thelwall Viaduct, where the M6 crosses the Mersey and Manchester Ship Canal, just south of Haydock Park racecourse.

The low level route takes you under the arrival/departure paths for MAN and LPL, max altitude 1500 MSL. It's usually quite busy with light stuff, especially at weekends. The times I've been through it we used Warton radar and then transferred to MAN approach (119.4 ?), then Shawbury when past Crewe.

I think if you give the tower at Barton a call, they will be able to give you more info about the entry and exit points, rules and regs etc. As everything into and out of Barton uses the low level route.

Hope this helps, but things may have changed a little in the six/seven years since I've been darn sarf.

[Shaggy Sheep Driver]

STurns

Call on 119.4 (Manchester Approach). They may well say use the Low Level Route. It's fine - 5 miles wide, 1250 QNH max (I usually go through at abot 800 feet to avaoid veryone else at 1250 ;~).

No clearance is required in the route. Do NOT follow the M6 south of Warrinton - it swings east out of the LLR towards EGCC.

Keep a good lookout.

SSD

[Hooligan Bill]

Sturns

If you are looking to cross the Manchester Zone IFR at a lower level I believe that you will be out of luck. Normally they will not offer anything much below FL60.

You could always try crossing the Liverpool Zone, via LPL and WHI at 2.5A, if you are looking for IFR, this keeps you out of Class A airspace. Approval would be subject to workload and traffic levels both at Liverpool and Manchester, but this is a quite a well trodden path for crossing the area.

[RotorHorn]

My suggested route would be

1. enter the low level route overhead Haydock racecourse and head due south (<1250 on Man Qnh).
2. exit via the Whitegate NDB (WHI 368.5) - it's next door to Oulton Park race circuit.
3. route direct to Lichfield (NW Birmingham)
4. route down the right hand side of the brummy class D airspace.
5. Then pick up DTY....

[Holdposition]

SSD:

Well i normally fly LLR @ 750/800 ft for the same reason, so keep a good look out!!! as i will, will be using it Sunday so might get a chance for a wave,

cheers

[Chilli Monster]

Everyone so far has mentioned the LLR, and crossing the Liverpool zone. Nobody though has realised it's the opposite side of the country STurns wants to go to.

My suggestion would be EGNC - POL - SMF - NOT - DTY - EGLM. It's close to direct, yet likely to give the least airspace problems

CM

[long final]

Got to agree with Chilli. Being based around there, neither MAN or LPL are too keen IFRing you through (MAN an definite No-No). POL to SMF is about your best at <FL35, but Leeds will give you a radar across.

If you are still IMC by East Mids...... don't know what they are like at letting you through.

Regards
LF

[STurns]

Thanks for all your replies.

I ended up going EGNC-LBA-SMF-TNT-DTY-EGLM.

Was IMC on the way down until 1/2 way LBA-SMF (weak cold front) and then on top FL55, lovely flight on top of the haze layer.

Flight back was even better, nice to see the Lake District without any clouds for once! Any 2 hours is a bit quicker than the car.

Can recommend White Waltham too, lots of runways and no hassle.

Regards,

STurns

[Hooligan Bill]

long final wrote

Got to agree with Chilli. Being based around there, neither MAN or LPL are too keen IFRing you through (MAN an definite No-No). POL to SMF is about your best at <FL35, but Leeds will give you a radar across

I have absolutly know problems with requests for IFR transits across the Liverpool Zone. However, what you have to remember is we can only offer 2.5A maximum any higher and it is Manchester's airspace. It is also dependant on Manchester 'giving' us 2.5A south of the M56 as this portion of airspace is not delegated to us at this level. Since 06R opened it has become a little more difficult when Manc are on easterlies. Also if you cross at WAL you need to be able to fly in Class A airspace.

[long final]

Hooligan Bill,

I wasn't having a go per se at Liverpool, just that to route the other way doesn't have the possible problems you pointed out.

Those N Wales Hills are too close, if you have to route round, for me at 2.IMC is all. :)

Glad you enjoyed your trip STurns.

Regards
LF

[andrewc]

Having recently flown the TopNav from White Waltham, I
feel free to comment...

Its a damn big field, with hares/rabbits gamboling around
on it, occasionally being spooked by the airey planes.

Landing is fine, taking off was the worst experience
I've had in a plane - thrown in the air by a great
bump, just below flying speed, wallowing down with
a crump and then staggering into the air...

Yeah, I loved it really, but I'm going off grass strips,

-- Andrew

[spekesoftly]

Just a small correction re. the LLR - it is 4nm wide, not 5.

I prefer to fly at 1250' in the LLR - it keeps me clear of all the A/C at 800', whose pilots are avoiding A/C at 1250' ;)

[STurns]

Bumps, yer divvent knaa the meanin o the word - come to Northumberland and i'll show yer bumps! When I wer a lad we had to make do with a cliff to land on and be glad of it :D

[RotorHorn]

We used to Dreeeeam of a cliff!
We had to make do with a budgie perch - and we 'ad to pay t'budgie for permission to land....

[long final]

and I take it that perch was to be found farty mile t'north ower t'ills and bog, wit nowt on thar feet bar blister and t'blood .....

;) ;)