Interesting story on BBC

[atco-matic]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2161079.stm about our financing at Nats

[vertigo]

..and here is todays latest news on NATS..


http://news.bbc.co.uk/media/audio/38170000/rm/_38170163_airtraffic_stanbridge06.ram

[foo fighting]

..."dire" is the word used in the above story, todays instalment in the entertaining story of the continuing disintegration through gross mismanagement of one of Britains vital transport networks.

Is it about time that some of our 'superiors' fell on their swords ?

[Julian]

And the latest...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/2164989.stm

[250 kts]

I think we're all being far too hard on management. After all it is only about 8 years ago that they were warned by the staff/unions that they wouldn't have anywhere near enough ATCOs to run the number of sectors that they were planning on.

The customers are now reaping the rewards of believing what they were told by NATS. The truth is that the flow rates are back at LATCC levels and were at that level relatively quickly. It is purely a FORESEEN staff shortage that has caused this mess.

Management even had the nerve to blame too many people retiring early as a factor-funny I thought they knew we had a flexible retirement scheme:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

The sooner we have a policy which posts people around the country into LACC & LATCC the better. I know this is controversial but I see the only way out is to train our way there-and the quickest people to validate will be previously valid staff. I know you won't get them all through but at least the chances should be increased.

It's really not bad down here-once you get used to the huge mortgage. :D :D.

[foo fighting]

excellent idea re:moving people down south.

Can't imagine we'll get killed in the rush though. I think our northern colleagues will find enough reasons not to work a lot harder for a relatively poorer existence. No blame attached there, only to said management who seem to forget the "movable grade" aspect of the job that they throw at everyone when it suits them.

[250 kts]

And that's just why we have to make the differential worth moving for.

We should be getting the Additional Attendances factored into WPP for LACC so EVERYONE has to do a few extra days BUT the reward is,say, an extra £8000 on the basic salary.
Doing it that way ensures that there will not be so much anymosity(as there will be) to the ones who do it and also that the days are properly monitored. We all know what happened last year with SRATCOH etc.

Also doing it in this way encourages both sides to resolve the problem asap and there is a definite end date to the additional duties. As it stands at present this will go on into the Summer of 2004 without further negotiation

There is also the issue of nights being equally rostered. Just imagine that your mate volunteers for the AVA.I don't think they will get nights just in case they are needed. No, voluntary days are not the way to go and have some major problems attached.

The major advantage to this is the money is there in peoples' salaries for good and if NATS need to extend the deal then they will have to cough up again in the future when the deal is extended.

It would also get away from, say, a guy in his 50's knackering himself out doing upto 20 days extra just to boost the pension-assuming he lives long enough to see it of course.:eek: :eek:

[ZIP250]

Me thinks Mr Cheese n Ham has a bad case of Foot in Mouth. Kenny has told us that it is all under control now he's back. I wonder what awaits the Chief Operating Officer on his return from the Eastern Mediterranean. They can hardly follow the usual course and promote him can they?

On the subject of staffing Swanwick it has to be a question of supply and demand. Now we are in the open market then surely all those guys n gals practising their skills elsewhere will come to the sunny South Coast for a few squids. The only problem is defining "few". I reckon to make it worthwhile for someone from jockland to transfer we must be talking £25k a year on basic. I may be wrong but with the current insoluble staffing crisis, I reckon the've got to start an auction and I think that for that sort of money they might get a few takers.

What about it you folk up north. What is your price??!!


Z :) :) :)

[Scott Voigt]

Do you not get a bonus for working evenings??? Or on weekends?

regards

[250 kts]

At present the differential between the top of the 2 scale at LACC and at MACC/ScACC is around £5K. My suggestion would increase this to about £13K.

I'm looking forward to hearing what the reaction would be to this idea from some of our colleagues "oop north". Bearing in mind NATS can't afford to keep all these centres open and I'll be amazed if McNERC ever happens,they'll be coming down here anyway so any advances made now can only benefit them in the future.

I also urge LACC people to react to the idea of the additional duties being built into the WPP.

Scott. The money for nights/holidays etc is paid in the form of an Unsocial Hours Payment(UHP). This is fine except nATS has consistently failed to raise its' value in line with the normal increases which we may get. It accounts for less than 10% of basic pay. However our wonderful new rosterers get it at a rate of 12.5% and they do't even have to work nights for it. :confused: :confused:

[Spotter]

Or another similar sounding Scottish phrase.

I'm not at LACC or LTCC, & I hope never to be. But you can be sure that whatever precedents you set down there will be forced on the rest of us whether we like it or not if it suits management.

Surely you are not serious about wanting COMPULSORY extra shifts rostered? I've no objection if you want to VOLUNTEER for extra duties & mess up your days off just for the sake of a poxy few quid, but don't expect me to.

Anyway I thought it was supposed to be so horrendously busy down there that you need every bit of respite just to recover for the next cycle's onslaught?

I may not work at a unit handling the amount of traffic you do, but I value my time off, and if anything would prefer the union to be working towards negotiating a shorter working week for us in line with other quality industries in this country & abroad.

I feel that your suggestion rather than encourage people to move south, would have the reverse effect. If you want to attract people then you have got to attract them by offering a better quality of life. & to some people quality of life is not just about having figures on your payslip that look like phone numbers & a mortgage to more than match.

If you want more money then fight for more money, but don't work yourself into an early grave for it.

[250 kts]

Thanks Spotter. You do miss the point i'm trying to make. If the duties are factored in then we,as a union,have the ability to put a definite finish date to any deal. As it is, people can volunteer to do a number of shifts and if they have not done them all by the end of 2003 then they can be carried on into 2004. now this is way beyond the end date for this pay deal but NATS are still benefitting from it.

If it is spread amongst everyone then it will mean around 5 extra duties per year but with major benefits then built into the salary scale FOREVER. This way it also means that individuals do not become reliant financially on the overtime money. It also means that it is much easier to track in terms of SRATCOH as this was a major problem with OCT last year. This way also gets away from the situation of management phoning individuals to do extra and coming up with cosy deals depending on the desperatness of the situation. I recently heard of an ATSA4 being offered TRIPLE time to do a duty-now where does that leave the ATCO daily rate in comparison??

We do have a major problem over night shifts down here and a voluntary deal can only make that situation worse. I think the deal will be voted in by many units but they know that they will not have to change their Working Practices at all to get the additional benefits.

I do accept that many people do not want extra duties but as I said before we have to accept that NATS can't go on like this and properly rostered duties are the best way we have of keeping a track on just what is going on.

[Cavemonster]

250kts

I work at Swanwick, don't want to volunteer for extra duties as the chaos caused socially outweighs the sum on offer in value and don't want to see further divisions in the workforce as the arguments re-start as certain people start doing extras.

So if I wanted to help get the company back on its feet, I'm afraid that I agree with you; everyone to do extra days at a sensible price for a defined period of time. It's a right pain but more equitable.

[1996]

The last 2 posts are precisely why we should not go down the road of overtime under any circumstances. Prospect have accepted a VOLUNTARY overtime deal for a specified period. Those that wish to earn extra cash, feel free but don't expect the majority of us to be joining you. The ATCO job is demanding enough as it is, and those of us who have been doing it for some time value our time off more than cash. Don't ever suggest any form of compusory overtime as intimated in these posts. Managment will be laughing all the way to the bank with their bonuses.:(

[Scott Voigt]

Hi 250 Knots;

Thanks for the information... I have a hard time keeping it straight as to what all the different countries rules are <G>.

Here we get 10% of base for working between 1800 and 0600. We get nothing for working on Saturdays, but we get 25% of base for working on Sundays..

regards

[250 kts]

1996.

Would you work additional duties for £10k-a day??

I would hazard a guess that you would. So for most people it's not the principle but the reward.

I hope that no-one does the AVA in order that the price to NATS does have to rise to at least what was negotiated last year. We do have to come into the real world over some of these issues. Some of the airfields have been doing OT for ages in order to keep the contracts,and now that NATS is in such a "dire" position maybe we have to do our bit as well.

Yes the managers may still get their bonuses but I don't see some of the senior ones being around too much longer.

So if we do go down this road then let's do it properly built into the WPP and have it regulated and monitored to protect ALL of us.

[Aunt Rimmer]

Why should I move down south to an overpriced overheated economy, when my quality of life in Scotland is so much better?

Trouble with NATS is too many decision makers with positions and self-interest to protect continually build new buildings in expensive parts of the country. As I understand it, ScOACC is more cost efficient than LATCC and NERC, so perhaps, given that ScOACC now controls 70% of the UK airspace we should be compulsorily posting people to Scotland and closing the centres down south. NERC would make a lovely call centre after all ..... no change there then
:D
Why should you folk 'down south' get £5k extra (plus London weighting) for doing the same job in very small part of the country.:p ...

Think of the money NATS could save by moving it all to a less expensive part of the country .....

[dontshootme]

I don't get this. One minute you guys are overworked, the next your wanting to work overtime!

Surely it would be better for all concerned to fight for individual rostering. That way, instead of some people doing a nightshift from their bed and their colleagues fighting to cope with the traffic levels later that day, everyone would do their fair share and the peaks and troughs would be staffed for.

[foo fighting]

To A Rimmer,

Must be difficult controlling half a dozen planes in 70% of UK airspace.

I'll pass the hat round in TC to compensate you for the difference in earnings you struggle on for doing the same job as us.


ho ho ho

[ZIP250]

Dontshootme,

We don't want to work overtime. It is management's idea to get us out of the mess the've created. We don't want individual rostering (or ****logic either). We don't sleep on night duties.

:mad: :mad: :mad:

Z

[WetFeet]

Have to support Aunt Rimmer on this one. After all, sectors from down south are gradually being moved up north precisely because Scottish can handle them without the major delays imposed down south. Just watch the flow rates jump on North Sea next year!

Also a false impression that it is only a few aircraft, it is busy, and without the restrictions. Would be even busier if the flights could get through London area.

And don't forget the Ocean, that's also at Prestwick. Numbers rising again, no radar. Gets busy there too. No longer an easy unit to validate at, just ask those that haven't made it. That was unheard of 10-15 years ago.

Forget unit pay differentials. The ones we already have between ATCO2 and 3 stations cause enough problems as it is. Do we really want to create more division. I thought we were a team!

[flowman]

Re: moving down south

I was "moved down south" after 14 years controlling up north (or "in the provinces" as management quaintly called it at the time) but spending 50% of my salary on a mortgage was not my idea of earning a living.
I would love to be working at Heathrow, that was my posting and somewhere I had always wanted to work, but when the sums don't add up what can you do but look elsewhere.
When house prices in the South-East are rising by as much as 5% per month its hard to imagine any pay deal attracting anyone who is not already resident in that part of the country.
My only alternative was to keep moving South- to Brussels! A bit drastic I know, and I really miss the controlling (but not the U.K. strangely enough).
As has been said, its a free market now, so go where the best conditions are.
My suggestion: you should all learn Spanish and b*gger off to Spain....

Flowman

[250 kts]

The only way that we at Swanwick will be working overtime is if the rest of the country vote for the deal on offer. I can count on one hand the number of people who have said they will vote for this deal. The reason for this is NOT the 10% pay rise but the strings attached. It will be so easy for the rest of the country to vote and sit back and watch things happen down here. Some people will do the additional duties but i suspect most will refuse point blank or will not do so until the price is right-after all we all have our own price to do things.

On the subject of nights. Well I'm afraid the good times are long gone down here. Every one rostered HAS to work BOTH nights-that's just the way it is now.

Aunt Rimmer you need to come into the real world. You are a mobile grade and should be prepared to move if neccessary should the operation require it-it's not nice at the time(I've done it) but you do get used to it. I see we've just had a lady posted from ScATCC and she wanted to come down here. I understand there are also a number at MaCC who have posting requests in. And you shoot down your own argument when you say you have a good standard of living on your salary up there. That is exactly why there should be a MAJOR difference between the salaries at the 2 units.

Yes sectors are being moved to other units but let's be clear so far they are the quietest sectors that we have on the unit. I know that S29 has kicked up a gear but I see that restrictions are rarely imposed by either MaCC or ScACC- draw your own conclusions from this one.

All units are busy at this time of the year but something has to be done to attract staff to the units which have the shortages-unpalatable but true.

flowman.

Hola. Working on the Espanol already. Adios:D :D :D

[dontshootme]

ZIP250
We don't sleep on night duties.
You may not, but your colleagues at most NATS units do, some in the comfort of their own homes.
If rostering was improved so that this was eliminated it would provide the equivelant of a lot of extra controller hours without asking controllers to work extra shifts. That is an inescapable fact.

[250 kts]

dontshootme. You really show your lack of knowledge/ignorance on the subject.

The cause of most of the delays at present is at Swanwick purely due to staff shortages and was forseeable by some 5/6 years ago. Well I can tell you that the night manning is as close to the wire as is possible and that is with ALL staff working ALL of BOTH nights. It only takes one person to be sick on a night and this often leads to closure of sectors. Indeed if more staff were to be available on nights then we wouldn't be in the crazy situation of having to re-route traffic out of the London FIR.

It still may be the case that staff at some units do get some sleep on nights-but don't long haul crews do so as well? Would you prefer to have controllers who have had no sleep at all controlling you at 0600 into LHR or someone who maybe has had a couple of hours nap?

It is an inescapeable fact as you put it that NATS has allowed in excess of 3000 days in lieu to accumulate at Swanwick alone and have no provision for the staff to take the time owing to them. So when you start criticising the working practices amongst the controllers,just have a look at what they have already given to the organisation first.

[2 six 4]

250KTS The reason for this is NOT the 10% pay rise but the strings attached.

What strings would they be ?

[dontshootme]

250 kts
It still may be the case that staff at some units do get some sleep on nights-but don't long haul crews do so as well? Would you prefer to have controllers who have had no sleep at all controlling you at 0600 into LHR or someone who maybe has had a couple of hours nap?

Are you saying that your operation is less safe because you don't get a sleep at night?

I'm not talking about someone getting their head down during a quiet spell. I'm talking about those who go home after half a shift, or who come in at 2 or 3 am to replace them, and those who don't come in at all.

[250 kts]

2six4. You are right in that that should one choose not to do anything then they don't have to. I should have used the phrase "PERCEIVED strings".

Let there be no doubt that there will be people who will volunteer to work this overtime-because that is what it is,and both sides will come to rely on this as a normal part of Working Practices. It will need to be very carefully regulated to ensure that we do not have the shambles which surrounded the OCT deal last year. And let's not forget that the going price for a days' work has fallen by around 40%. If we really think this will end in 2003 then we are living on another planet. indeed there will be no significant increase in numbers for at least 2 years and probably longer than that-unless the Flexible Retirement scheme is withdrawn.

The part of the deal relating to retired ATCOs being allowed back is worrying as this could lead to a potential blockage on promotion. There is little enough job progression for ATCOs as it is and this could make it even worse.

I suspect and hope that the deal will just just be carried but that few if any work the overtime.

Management also say that the aspiration of controllers will be self-funding. If that isn't a guarded way of saying that jobs could go I don't know what is. They may not be ATCO ones but jobs all the same. And if not jbs then certainly a threat to our T&Cs.

dontshoot.

I think it stands to reason that any operation is less safe if the staff have potentially had no sleep for approaching 24 hours. I may be wrong but hey I'm only human. I know that I certainly don't function particularly well at 0630 on the 2nd night. Why do airlines have a 3 man crew for flights over a certain time limit-safety or just to give 'em a free trip to LAX/SFO etc-I think the former!!

I will reiterate that at Swanwick,which is responsible for most of the delays at present,staff work all of both nights and just one going sick often leads to airspace being closed. This is a FACT. Yes there may be units which still have a surplus on nights but Swanwick ain't one of them.

I look forward to an acknowledgement of this and if you have any bright ideas on how better to keep a 24 hour operation going on the shoe-string numbers we have let's all hear it.

[Lieutenant Dan]

Reasons for doing overtime?

Clear your debts, and get the hell out of NATS.:p

[flowman]

Lieutenant Dan
I like your attitude, you sound like another Spanish candidate!
Take the money and run.

[Lieutenant Dan]

Flowman, I don't know if I could cope with all that sun. After another British summer my skin now blisters under bright moonlight.

But northern Europe, hmmm. I never did see the atomium...

[flowman]

Lieutenant Dan,

Try:

http://www.eurocontrol.be/jobs/index.html

and it is perfectly safe in Belgium (or Netherlands) for anyone with any kind of allergy to the sun.

Flowman

[Lieutenant Dan]

Thanks for the website info, Flowman.
Eurocontrol is very appealing, once I can get over the apprehension of a move abroad. But I'm starting to move in that direction.
May be joining you in the wee countries before long.:)

[Vercingetorix]

Aunt Rimmer & WetFeet, you are simpletons

[dontshootme]

250 ktsI think it stands to reason that any operation is less safe if the staff have potentially had no sleep for approaching 24 hours.
I would say that any ATCO who would be 24 hours without sleep at the end of a shift should be declaring themselves unfit to work.
Gary Hart was sentences to 5 years in prison for causing the Selby train crash through lack of sleep. Imagine what would happen if a controller caused or contributed to an accident for the same reason.

I look forward to an acknowledgement of this and if you have any bright ideas on how better to keep a 24 hour operation going on the shoe-string numbers we have let's all hear it.
I accept and believe what you say about the hours worked at Swanwick. The point is that if the rostering was improved elsewhere then each unit could probably spare a few to be posted down to Swanwick to relieve the crisis down there.

As zerouali indicates, your only asking your colleagues to work their conditioned hours.

[250 kts]

zerouali. I see from your past posts that most of them appear in the "wannabe" or ATC areas. Which are you??

If it is the latter then you would have no problem with relation to conditioned hours,and I say again, the staff at the unit which is the most under-staffed are now well and truly working ALL of their
conditioned hours.
And if you are a wannabe what is galling about our shift patterns to you and what does it have to do with you anyway???

You probably have never done a night shift in your life. If you had then you would know that it takes more than a pair of curtains to persuade the body to sleep when it doesn't want to. But thanks for the tip anyway:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Aunt Rimmer]

Vercingeteorix
You are obviously well placed in the arse end of beyond to comment on the simplicity of controlling today in the UK :D

Let market forces decide. If it costs 10k+ more to employ a controller at Swanwick, then why should the airlines pay that extra?

Surely employing a lower paid controller at ScACC makes economic sense - hence the reason more sectors are moving north.

If we're not all careful they'll build a big centre in some third world slum and employ folk on the minimum wage .......

[Bigears]

Aunt Rimmer, think its called Prestwick- wasn't there a project once called 'NSC'? :D

[250 kts]

zerouali.

The comments I reacted to were from someone stating that people not working their rostered hours was causing the delays to the customer. My point was that most of the delays are caused by Swanwick and at that unit staff ARE WORKING THEIR ROSTERED HOURS.

I assume you are not at LACC and therefore would almost certainly NOT BE working all your hours. Sorry if this is incorrect as it may be a rash assumption.

What unit are you at-the profile doesn't say???

[dontshootme]

250
Can you think of a faster way to get more validated ATCOs at Swanwick than to take qualified and experienced people from units where they are surplus to requirement? Surely they will validate quicker and easier than a bunch of newbies straight out of training?:D :D :D

[250 kts]

dontshootme.

If you read back through this thread you will see that this is just what I was advocating and was well and truly hauled out to dry for it.

Unfortunately there is a belief that we are no longer a mobile grade. And even if we were then not many are prepared to move down south to the areas with a high cost of living. Therefore i will repeat that it is essential that a major gap is established between the salaries at LACC/LTCC/EGLL etc to encourage staff that the move is worthwhile.

OK time to duck below the bullet line!! :D :D

[zeros and ones]

Surprised to read that Swanwick ATCOs are working their conditioned hours....

That'll be why the 12 beds provided in the building are generally oversubscribed?

[250 kts]

Yes they are. And have you bothered to check who uses them. I'm not going to start a war between ATCOs/ATSAs and the rest of the staff who are around on nights-so go away and check your facts.

ATCOs can have a rest period,depending on validations, of upto 2 hours on nights and still not break SRATCOH and it is sometimes awkward to find a place not already occupied by shall we say, non-operational staff.

And as our conditioned hours include fatigue breaks then yes,we are working our hours at LACC.