Do you let people have a go?

[HeliboyDreamer]

When flying in dual command aircraft are you breaking the law if you give control to passenger and you are not FI?

Assume that the person would have been briefed on the controls as well as positive exchange of controls.

I know some people do it but I am not sure if this is correct on not i.e. I bought a flight helicopter experience some time ago and did have the control even tried to hover. The person taking me out was not FI.

[aa777888]

Legal in the US except in R22s and R44s where anyone who touches the controls must have an SFAR73 sign-off first. But legal in an R66, SFAR 73 does not apply :ugh:

[Ascend Charlie]

Might be legal, but doesn't mean it is a good idea.

[oleary]

Done it lots of times.

Just retake control before you end up in the tulips.

That, ... and keep your mouth shut.

[B2N2]

Dropping the controle on people without having briefed them on the opportunity on the ground where their brains still works is a very bad idea. Fixed wing or rotor craft.
Ask me how I know.
On second thoughts don’t....lol

[Thomas coupling]

Sydney Stewart: Toddler DID cause deadly helicopter crash by pushing controls with foot | Daily Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2231146/Sydney-Stewart-Toddler-DID-cause-deadly-helicopter-crash-pushing-controls-foot.html)

[HeliboyDreamer]

Dropping the controle on people without having briefed them on the opportunity on the ground where their brains still works is a very bad idea.

I did mentioned that the person would have been briefed on the ground. In my case I have been briefed 30min by the pilot before we go out flying.


Done it lots of times.

That, ... and keep your mouth shut.

Your comment above make me worried that it is not right to do so....

I am mostly interested in rules for Europe (sorry forgot to mention this at start of thread)

[chopjock]

Unless there is a law against it, it will be legal...

[GoodGrief]

A lot of CAAs tell you that the duals have to be removed for commercial passenger flights.
They can only go in for training and check flights.

[HeliboyDreamer]

I would be very surprised if your pilot was not an instructor.

He was not.

[Thomas coupling]

AOC ops requires commercial pilots to fly - noone else.
GA flying may not have a rule specifically stating children cannot fly, but if they are NOT pilots, you'd have your work cut out convincing a law court you were in control and the insurance company would have a field day.
Same with cars I guess.
Only a dick would allow a child to take control.

(Big difference between taking control and following daddy thru on the controls).

[oleary]

A lot of CAAs tell you that the duals have to be removed for commercial passenger flights.
They can only go in for training and check flights.

In Canada with a VFR medium you will take the ground crew out in the morning flying from the right seat (CARs 703/4), then put on your longline, hop over the pedestal and fly (CARs 702) from the left seat until crew pickup time, then reverse.

Some companies have an STC for CARs 703 (commercial passenger carrying) from the left seat. On any medium I have flown you cannot remove the right seat controls.

[Ascend Charlie]

Do you let people have a go?

Yes, I did once let a couple have a go, but they were in the back seat, celebrating their engagement, and asked me not to look around..... We weren't at 5,280' unfortunately, but that was a minor detail.

[B2N2]

It’s all good fun till somebody gets hurt.
If you’re an aspiring career pilot be extra cautious even if it is legal.
Any blemish on your record won’t do your career any good.

[casper64]

Do you let people have a go?

Yes, I did once let a couple have a go, but they were in the back seat, celebrating their engagement, and asked me not to look around..... We weren't at 5,280' unfortunately, but that was a minor detail.

😂😂😂 added some hi-lo g maneuvers to make "it" extra special??!

[HeliboyDreamer]

HeliboyDreamer,

out of interest, what kind of helicopter was it? what was entailed in the pre-flight briefing?

because this sounds like a public transport flight, and giving passengers control on an AOC public transport flight is a big no-no in the UK

This was in a Bell 206, I didn't know much about Helis so he explained to me what was the effect of moving each controls. Also got a safety briefing before boarding the aircraft. During the flight I got Cyclic first then collective, don't think I got to touch the pedals.

I am not sure if it was tranport flight or not we were the only two people on board.

[Cylinder Head]

In Europe....


EASA EU1178/2011 FCL.900


"(a) General. A person shall only carry out:


1) flight Instruction in aircraft when he/she holds:


i) a pilot licence issued or accepted in accordance with this Regulation;


ii) an instructor certificate appropriate to the instruction given, issued in accordance with this subpart."




Not only should you be properly qualified, you should also be operating under a suitable flying school approval E.g. an ATO and at a suitable training aerodrome.


If you have an accident, the insurers will simply laugh at you and heaven help you if someone else is killed - you'll go to prison.


If you have not trained to be an instructor, you don't know what you don't know! Ask any newly qualified instructor what they have learned in their first six months and they will invariably tell you about someone doing something they had not expected.


As Ascend says it's not a good idea. I know of at least two UK accidents where private owners have let someone have a go and crashed of a result. It's this sort of irresponsibility that puts our insurance premiums up. Best don't do it!

[chopjock]

Cylinder Head
In Europe....


EASA EU1178/2011 FCL.900


"(a) General. A person shall only carry out:


1) flight Instruction in aircraft when he/she holds:


i) a pilot licence issued or accepted in accordance with this Regulation;


ii) an instructor certificate appropriate to the instruction given, issued in accordance with this subpart."




Not only should you be properly qualified, you should also be operating under a suitable flying school approval E.g. an ATO and at a suitable training aerodrome.


If you have an accident, the insurers will simply laugh at you and heaven help you if someone else is killed - you'll go to prison.


If you have not trained to be an instructor, you don't know what you don't know! Ask any newly qualified instructor what they have learned in their first six months and they will invariably tell you about someone doing something they had not expected.



There is a difference between giving instruction and "letting someone have a go"...

[Bell_ringer]

There is a difference between giving instruction and "letting someone have a go"...

From a legal standpoint I don't believe there is a difference.
You are either licensed to operate an aircraft or not.
In the latter case, it can only legally be done under instruction.

[GoodGrief]

There is a huge difference.
A student is a person registered for flight training with the authorities.

[rotarywise]

The OP is in the UK and so the relevant legislation is the ANO, Article 50:

(1) Subject to paragraph (2), a person must not act as a pilot of an EASA aircraft that is registered in the United Kingdom without holding an appropriate licence granted, converted or rendered valid under the EASA Aircrew Regulation.

(2) A person may act as a pilot of an EASA aircraft without holding an appropriate licence granted, converted or rendered valid under the EASA Aircrew Regulation when undergoing flying training, including solo flying training authorised and supervised by a flight instructor, in accordance with the EASA Aircrew Regulation as amended from time to time.

The question therefore turns on what constitutes 'acting as a pilot'. If the courts decide that, by manipulating the controls of an aircraft in flight, a person is 'acting as a pilot' then the situation as described by the OP is illegal.

[chopjock]

Acting is not real though!

[n5296s]

The question therefore turns on what constitutes 'acting as a pilot'
I'm pretty sure you have to wear four gold braids and a peaked cap. A large, expensive and complicated looking watch probably helps too.

[Cylinder Head]

Quote
"There is a difference between giving instruction and "letting someone have a go"...

Opinion is divided on the subject, Chopjock says there is, the law says there ain't!

In EASA land, If you are not a qualified instructor you, as PIC, you have no authority to pass control to anyone else who is not qualified.

[John R81]

You haven't passed "control". You are the pilot even if they are waggling the stick. You are not even training them - their waggle-time does not count as PUT. If the airframe gets bent, you could have an interesting time chatting with insurance about how sensible it was to let them have a waggle......

[Boslandew]

Only did it once. Dumbest thing I ever did.

I was flying an airtest in an S58T. I had an engineer in the left hand seat. He assured me he had had 'hands on' many times in his career. I let him handle the controls during a long descent. At 2000' I took control and increased power to level off. There was an alarming rotor droop and I discovered that he had wound off both twist-grip throttles, thinking it necessary for descent.

Lucky I had started to level off at 2000' and not 500.

Wrong to have done it in the first place but really dumb to assume that just because he was a type qualified engineer, he understood enough to fly it.

[chopjock]

Boslandew
You were the commander and you didn't notice the throttle needles ? Also how do you know he was not just about to twist them back in when approaching 1000 feet or so? There is nothing wrong with letting a pax have a go so long as you keep situation awareness and be ready to regain control in my opinion.

[Thomas coupling]

Chopjock.

If you let a child or anyone 'not qualified'...drive your car and the car gets damaged/injures someone....who gets it in the neck, then?

You've just seen rotarywise quote the law.
Which bit of the law don't you understand?

You cannot hand the controls of an aircraft to anyone other than those qualified or authorised to do so - even for some waggle time......unless you (the PiC) understand fully that for that period - you are acting illegally and you are not insured....simples.
Of course it goes on, all the time and everywhere but...........it is illegal in the UK.
Where is the confusion in all of this?

[GKaplan]

I remember flying around with my 9 year old son handling the cyclic from the left seat while I was keeping control of the collective and pedals (which he couldn't reach anyway).
That was good fun... in a FFS ;) (ok I'm out)

[chopjock]

TC

If you let a child or anyone 'not qualified'...drive your car and the car gets damaged/injures someone....who gets it in the neck, then?

Your analogy with a car is flawed, the car does not have dual controls and there are obstacles on the road to hit...

[Thomas coupling]

Just when I was warming to your retorts on other threads, you go and post this load of bolloc*s Choppy old boy.
Back to square one now - you still are a plonker.....

[John R81]

As many people appear to have done this - even posting here that they have, and there is video evidence aplenty on YOUTUBE; those who say it is illegal, please post a reference to the prosecutions. I have looked at the UK court record and can't find any.


Not saying it is a good idea, but I can't see that it is illegal.

[Bell_ringer]

As many people appear to have done this - even posting here that they have, and there is video evidence aplenty on YOUTUBE; those who say it is illegal, please post a reference to the prosecutions. I have looked at the UK court record and can't find any.


Not saying it is a good idea, but I can't see that it is illegal.

Who would report it? The let-goer or the let-goee?
There is plenty of youtube footage of all sorts of illegal flying that goes unpunished.
If someone would care to volunteer some of their personal information and some supporting footage, then lets send it off to the relevant authority and see how it pans out.
Any takers? :E

[Hughes500]

Think you will find that a ppl with more than 200 hours with no instructor rating is entitled to give lesson 3 which is an air experience flight. Has to be done under the supervision of an ATO !

[chopjock]

Some front seat observers I know are shown how to land incase the pilot becomes incapacitated!

[Thomas coupling]

Chopjock - now you really have reverted to type. Absolute complete and utter bollocks.

I conducted a trial during my time as CP for the police/hems outfit to cover this very "circumstance".

Each and every time this was discussed or tried, it was apparent that it was a complete non starter.
First you have to 'assume' the incapacitated pilot doesn't slump all over the controls killing everyone instantly as the helo inverts.
Then you have to move from your co-pilot seat or back seat into the pilot seat after having chucked the pilot out of his seat without disturbing the controls! [AP: Don't even go there].
Then you have a complete *nob trying to fly a £6 million helo from X hundreds or thousands of feet all the way down to 'somewhere' straight in front of him or her without deviating (because they can't turn it in balance) to a running landing on the golf course which is always available in front of them and is always half a mile long.
Hovering options: Are you insane?


So I will take your last post as a pinch of salt and an attempt to wind me up - which it has done - bravo.

[rotarywise]

Think you will find that a ppl with more than 200 hours with no instructor rating is entitled to give lesson 3 which is an air experience flight. Almost entirely incorrect, I'm afraid. Only the holder of an FI certificate (i.e. not a TRI or IRI) may conduct Ex.3, which is a part of the PPL syllabus. Perhaps you are getting confused with the 'introductory flight' that may be conducted by the holder of an LAPL or PPL. This is not an instructional flight and is certainly not Ex.3, nor is any minimum level of experience required to conduct such a flight. Have a look at para 4 of IN-2015/029 (http://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/InformationNotice2015029.pdf)

[Hughes500]

think you are playing semantics here. Introductory flight / air experience flight tell me what the difference is then ?

[Hughes500]

The In is typical of the CAA doesn't actually really say much, for the purpose of this thread it doesn't say that you can't let someone have a go which would be an introductory flight would presumably be all about

[chopjock]

TC
So I will take your last post as a pinch of salt and an attempt to wind me up - which it has done - bravo.

There are a lot more on here to wind up than just you. Nevertheless I have spoken to several observers who sit in the front about what they would do in the event of pilot incapacitation and more than one of them told me they were shown how to reach over and hold the stick, steer to a suitable open space, lower the lever and make a run on landing into wind.
I never said anything about hovering and I am not insane.

[The Night Owl]

Is it legal to have unlicensed pilots etc in the p2 seat with duels in or should they be taken out?

... that said my first go's weren't under official instruction

[evil7]

@chopjock

If these observers told you that, it was total bull....
A colleague and I tried it once. I was PF and he sat beside me. He reached over and handled the controls (sans pedals) from his side. It worked and I think he might have gotten us down in one piece (we stopped it at a save height), BUT ..,,,

He had more experience than me at that time (couple of thousand hours) and it was an R44 where he could easily reach the stick!!! And I was fully awake and ready to take over😎
I say it is not possible in a normal helicopter and for somebody having no flight experience (licence).

Nice fairytale, though😉

[RINKER]

Just talking about R22 and R44, I seem to remember the Poh stating if the left
Passenger was not a rated pilot then the duals had to be removed.

R

[Musician]

Perhaps you are getting confused with the 'introductory flight' that may be conducted by the holder of an LAPL or PPL. [..] Have a look at para 4 of IN-2015/029 (http://publicapps.caa.co.uk/docs/33/InformationNotice2015029.pdf)

I looked that up, and found this further down the page:
9.6 Can the passenger operate the controls of the aircraft?

An introductory flight does not count towards the grant or issuance of a licence. If someone wishes to have a go at flying the aircraft they are advised to arrange a flying lesson at a Registered Training Facility or Approved Training Organisation.

Is that a "yes" or a "no"?


P.S.: "This Information Notice will remain in force until 31 August 2017."

[Ascend Charlie]

I have spoken to several observers who sit in the front about what they would do in the event of pilot incapacitation
In most cases, the pilot would slump forward onto the cyclic, and the aircraft would be 90 nose down before an observer could do much about it. And by then, he couldn't do much about it anyway, even if he was able to move the pilot off the controls long enough to try to fly it.

[John R81]

Who would report it? The let-goer or the let-goee?
There is plenty of youtube footage of all sorts of illegal flying that goes unpunished.
If someone would care to volunteer some of their personal information and some supporting footage, then lets send it off to the relevant authority and see how it pans out.
Any takers? :E



No wonder Air Law is not enforced in the UK! We have an admission here that there is no investigatory capability (or desire) in CAA, and they just wait for people to "hand themselves in".


I assume the same is also true for UK Police; no wonder the crime rate is rising!!!




No...... Wait...... This from the CAA's own website: "The Civil Aviation Authority is tasked by the Department for Transport to investigate and prosecute breaches of aviation safety rules and some aviation related consumer protection and health and safety requirements (https://www.caa.co.uk/Our-work/About-us/Enforcement-and-prosecutions/)"


In the last year:

Ahmed Sajawal T/A Al-Karem Travel was fined in respect of 5 counts - of breaching Reg. 9, Civil Aviation (Air Travel Organisers' Licensing) Regulations. Good job he just "handed himself in".


Christopher Kiley, prosecuted for flying in Class D airspace without ATC clearance. Didn't "hand himself in" and all the CAA had to go on initially was a Radar trace.

There are numerous examples of CAA using their investigatory powers, in every year. You can look-up the cases (they are public record). Evidence can include Youtube material or posts on sites like this one (a court can order disclosure of your real name) as evidence, etc.....


What is not specifically prohibited is allowed. I still cannot see a prohibition. The post from Musician tells a lot - you are gently advised against it. Perhaps it is "dumb" but it is not illegal.

[FlimsyFan]

Just talking about R22 and R44, I seem to remember the Poh stating if the left
Passenger was not a rated pilot then the duals had to be removed.

R

Remains the case, and applies equally to the R66

[Bell_ringer]

No wonder Air Law is not enforced in the UK! We have an admission here that there is no investigatory capability (or desire) in CAA, and they just wait for people to "hand themselves in".


I assume the same is also true for UK Police; no wonder the crime rate is rising!!!



Not really, with their limited resources they don't exactly have a team of people trawling Youtube and facebook looking for badly behaving Brexitish subjects and launching prosecutions.
If the CAA did this the jails would be full of drone operators..
I seriously doubt either the regulator or the Police will do much unless a problem crosses their desk - and in the Police's case will generally do little about it.

[chopjock]

AC
In most cases, the pilot would slump forward onto the cyclic, and the aircraft would be 90 nose down before an observer could do much about it. And by then, he couldn't do much about it anyway, even if he was able to move the pilot off the controls long enough to try to fly it.

The point I am making is not that this would work, but the fact they were given control to "try it". Presumably an attempt at a controlled crash would be better than an inflight break up.

[[email protected]]

Teaching people to manipulate the controls of a helicopter in the cruise is relatively straight forward and, in a stabilised aircraft, teaching someone to hover isn't that much more difficult.

However, getting from cruise to hover and landing is usually where it goes wrong for the inexperienced.

I have taught many RAF rearcrew to fly (in the old days with single pilot and a navigator that was quite useful) and some were very competent.

However, we had an incident a few years ago when a helicopter pilot did slump across the controls and it took the co-pilot several hundred feet to recover - had it happened lower, they would have been toast.

In short, know your audience and consider carefully the implications of them suddenly putting in a random control input - a favourite is lowering the lever and pulling back on the cyclic in the hover!

Definitely not recommended in anything with Robinson on the placard!

[chopjock]

Interesting relevant article here:

NTSB takes control of Duke Life Flight helicopter crash investigation | News & Observer (http://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/counties/durham-county/article172797311.html)

"The remaining accidents were apparent one-offs. In one, the pilot of a copter belonging to the Pitt County Memorial Hospital suffered a stroke at the controls and lost the use of his right arm. A nurse on the crew helped him work the flight controls for an emergency landing at the Cherry Point Marine Corps base."

[homonculus]

In the UK a few years ago it was quite common for wives, girlfriends and mistresses to do 'the dead man's course' which was about 5 hours designed to allow them to take the controls and put it on the ground with no injury should the driver become incapacitated. Normally this was undertaken by an FI although a few people did teach their own partners.

Sadly my partner decided nothing less than a full license would do. This is not to be recommended. Nowadays I spend more time in the left hand seat paying the bills than I do driving!

[Ascend Charlie]

the pilot of a copter belonging to the Pitt County Memorial Hospital suffered a stroke at the controls and lost the use of his right arm. A nurse on the crew helped him

So, the nurse helped his right arm have a stroke? Ohhh.... Harvey Weinstein....