Interesting scenario A320

[Bkdoss]

Let us assume that you are on ILS and you are at 2500' with the Go Around altitude set to 7000'. Now ATC gives you a speed constraint of 160kts. As per the FCTM you can go below the maneuvering speeds, which is S speed for Flaps 1,as long as you're above Vls. So you choose to reduce speed to 160kts with flaps 1, with the help of speed brakes. You've got your speed down to 160, when ATC says Go Around.

The call in this case would be Go Around flaps and PF advances the thrust lever to TOGA. If TOGA is hit first before flaps are retracted, SRS would engage. Now the SRS speed target in a go around would be Vapp or current speed at October Around whichever is higher, restricted to Vls+25. So if your Vls with Config 1 was somewhere close to 150, then SRS will maintain current speed (as it is the higher of Vapp and current speed and is less than Vls+ 25 which is 175). Now you're flying the Go Around profile at Config 0, with speed locked at 160, which is a long way below safe flap Retraction speed. What would be the protection that would kick in at this point to keep us in the safe envelope?

[RUMBEAR]

Why are you not in a "safe" envelope? You are above VLS and below VLS + 25?. Take-off Flap 1+F has a normal climb speed (V2 +10) well below S Speed.How is this situation different?

I think the key would be to ensure TOGA is selected before the flap lever is moved (if thats what you choose to do). As TOGA with GS and LOC still engaged would become interesting very quickly!

[Bkdoss]

Take off flaps 1+f has flaps at 1+f. But in this scenario you've retracted the flaps at go around to flaps 0, well below S speed and speed locked at 160.

[charlies angel]

Have you heard of the airmanship phrase " Aviate,Navigate,Communicate" ?

It was what pilots used to rely on to keep themselves safe before How To Handle The Big Computer Game became popular:O

In your scenario read the FMA.
Youve gone round from <2500' to 3000' and in flap one.
So FMA reads toga/srs/ga trk then alt* then spd/alt/ga trk. Push nav to engage nav mode for go around routing.
Your protection is autothrust speed mode at 160 knots selected.
A pilot would then suggest to his co pilot something like " Tell ATC to cancel 160kts cos its too slow if we need to manouvre" and wind the speed up to a speed that you are both happy with.
And Voila! youve Aviated Navigated and Communicated :D

[vilas]

Bkdoss
Many pilots do not know that retraction of one step flaps in a go around is not a ritual nor is it mandatory. The purpose is to reduce excess drag of full flap to get better manoeuvreability and better gradient. Since 1,2 and 3 are takeoff configurations it is not mandatory to retract one step. Just hit TOGA and keep the flap. There is no problem at all.

[Check Airman]

@bkdoss, is your company really suggesting that you retract the flaps in that scenario? How about you look at the other guy and say "go around, keep flaps 1"?

Meditate, Aviate, Navigate, Communicate

[student88]

You only retract the flaps 1 stage if the config is greater than 1+F, otherwise leave the flaps where they are.

[vilas]

The mandatory requirement to retract one step is for flap full. Airlines for standardization may keep the procedure to retract one step also for flap 3 since it can be landing flap. But it is not necessary. Why would you follow a procedure meant for landing flap when you are not yet configured?

[Bkdoss]

Have you heard of the airmanship phrase " Aviate,Navigate,Communicate" ?

It was what pilots used to rely on to keep themselves safe before How To Handle The Big Computer Game became popular:O

In your scenario read the FMA.
Youve gone round from <2500' to 3000' and in flap one.
So FMA reads toga/srs/ga trk then alt* then spd/alt/ga trk. Push nav to engage nav mode for go around routing.
Your protection is autothrust speed mode at 160 knots selected.
A pilot would then suggest to his co pilot something like " Tell ATC to cancel 160kts cos its too slow if we need to manouvre" and wind the speed up to a speed that you are both happy with.
And Voila! youve Aviated Navigated and Communicated :D

Hi Charlies Angel. Thanks for your reply. I'm sorry I didn't paraphrase my question correctly. Say you're at 2500 feet when your G/S intercept altitude is 3000. You're on glide and suppose the Go Around altitude is 7000'. Then you're in a mess having retracted flaps to zero.

[Bkdoss]

The mandatory requirement to retract one step is for flap full. Airlines for standardization may keep the procedure to retract one step also for flap 3 since it can be landing flap. But it is not necessary. Why would you follow a procedure meant for landing flap when you are not yet configured?


I'm afraid Airbus point blank says Retract one step of flaps for any Go Around. That is where my confusion stems from.

[Bkdoss]

The mandatory requirement to retract one step is for flap full. Airlines for standardization may keep the procedure to retract one step also for flap 3 since it can be landing flap. But it is not necessary. Why would you follow a procedure meant for landing flap when you are not yet configured?

Vilas again the performance for Approach Climb limiting weight for Config3 approach is computed with Config 2. Tables in FCOM for approach climb limiting weights are for Config 2&3 for Config 3&Full respectively. So I assume even if Landing is performed with Config 3, Go around has to be with flaps retracted one step up.

[charlies angel]

Keep it simple.
You have flap 1 when you set TOGA so the aircraft will go into Go Around mode.
You now have even more time to aviate.
Toga/ srs / ga trk becomes alt* then spd/alt/ ga trk.
Once again push for Nav and you now have green dot speed and managed nav.
What's not to like?:ok:
Don't forget the aircraft will go into go around mode on selection of Toga depending on the flap handle position when you start the manouvre.
Activate the approach and have another go.
Always monitor and believe the FMA.

[vilas]

BK
Approach climb is with OEI. If you see the graph it is not limiting. Unless it is limiting you can always leave it in three. Also if landing conf was full and you had not configured to full or if landing conf was 3 and you had not configured to three, then when you go around just keep the flap at whatever it is. As I said the one step retraction procedure is from landing flap configuration and not intermediate position. Why would you retract from two to one or from one to zero? Procedures have a logic. There is no point blank.

[akindofmagic]

I'm afraid Airbus point blank says Retract one step of flaps for any Go Around. That is where my confusion stems from.

Airmanship. Have you heard of it?

[Bkdoss]

BK
Approach climb is with OEI. If you see the graph it is not limiting. Unless it is limiting you can always leave it in three. Also if landing conf was full and you had not configured to full or if landing conf was 3 and you had not configured to three, then when you go around just keep the flap at whatever it is. As I said the one step retraction procedure is from landing flap configuration and not intermediate position. Why would you retract from two to one or from one to zero? Procedures have a logic. There is no point blank.

Thanks for your explanation Vilas. Yeah I do agree procedures have a reason and logic. The problem is a guy new on the BUS is always taught go around is with flaps retracted one step up. I agree with your point that a certain airmanship is essential. But Airbus being a company which has such elaborate technical notes wouldn't it have been more prudent for them to have specified clearly when to carry out the Go Around flap retraction and when not to.

[vilas]

BK
There are additional procedures like Landing with slat/flap jam or overweight landing. On ground in spare time if you question the why and how of these procedures it becomes very easy to apply them when the need arises and helps keep track of what one is doing. Otherwise mere button pushing with ECAM can leave one unsure of what he has done.

[STFMD80]

If you use flap 2 to slow down instead of that ill though way of using the speed brakes to go below S speed at 2500ft (why would you do that?), you will not put yourself in the mess you describe...

[pineteam]

Airbus can't write a specific procedure for all the possible scenarios. Airbus offers guidelines but sometimes you have to think out of the box. Most of the time at 2500 feet if you are on the glideslope you should be already on config 2. Especially on the A 319, unless you like to do Flaps 1, then gears down before Flaps 2. Anyway like all the guys said before, just apply good airmanship. if you have to go around, at 2500 feet with flaps 1. You still have lots of time to act and think. No need to rush. Quickly set to Toga then back to climb Detent and announce " go around, standby for flaps" or you can just discontinuity the approach by pulling open climb or pressing the approach push button and take appropriate actions or Vertical speed zero... Plenty of options there. Remember if you don't set TOGA, at least once, you won't have the go around phase. Not a big deal if you expect radar vector but better set TOGA at some point before the runway threshold or you might lose the flight plan if I'm not mistaken. Just keep the speed safe, make sure you undestand your FMA and don't forget to retract the gears before 220kt IAS. Happens more than we think. Enjoy =)

[Goldenrivett]

Hi Bkdoss
What would be the protection that would kick in at this point to keep us in the safe envelope?
FCOM, DSC-27-30-10: Alpha/Speed Lock,

If, in the scenario you describe, AOA was above 8.5 degs then the slats would not retract.
If AOA was less than 8.5, then the slats would retract and SRS would attempt to follow 160 kts (or max VLS+25). Depending on Alpha you may get TOGA LOCK with Alpha PROT / up to Alpha Max.

If you insist on blindly following "Go Around flaps" call /procedure then use managed speeds.

[vilas]

pineteam
Remember if you don't set TOGA, at least once, you won't have the go around phase. Not a big deal if you expect radar vector but better set TOGA at some point before the runway threshold It is a big deal. I think you are mixing up GA mode and NAV mode. You must hit TOGA otherwise the FDs will take you down as they will remain in approach mode. There were at least three incidents of this nature. In the worst case the aircraft in poor visibility was 14 feet on the runway before they ignored the FDs and pulled up. When below the FCU altitude TOGA and back to climb as you suggested is a better option. Discontinued approach is not a smart option it will sequence the airport creating extra work plus too much thinking. TOGA is better option even if you were above FCU altitude TOGA will still engage SRS only it will not have target altitude. You can push VS to change SRS set a target altitude and pull climb and cleanup.

[pineteam]

Hello Vilas,

You are totally right. Thank you for reminding me. That's a good point. I was suggesting that cause I believe if you do the standard Procedure of putting TOGA and calling go around the PM might act blindly like a robot and jump on the flaps lever up. Pressing the approach push button and open climb will cancel the approach so no risk to dive to the ground. But I hear what you say. It's not the smartest move.:}

[learner001]

When going around, the speed is yours again . . .

Kind regards.

[JuniorWoo]

In a non standard situation like this, it's often a good idea to look at the configuration and quickly agree a safe plan prior to the actual G/A. Avoids PM's jumping like a robot...

[vilas]

With decelerated approach being the order of the day go around with less than landing flap setting should form part of approach briefing. Normally airlines do revise GA procedure but that doesn't cover this aspect.

[Dupre]

Bkdoss,

Yours is a very good question.

My FCOM says:
GO AROUND........... ANNOUNCE
FLAPS lever..........SELECT AS REQUIRED
Retract one step of flaps

It makes no allowance for a go around in flaps 1 and therefore, requires retraction of flaps, potentially putting the aircraft in an undesired state.

Moreover, the standard callout is "GO AROUND - FLAPS". not GO AROUND, not GO AROUND STANDBY FLAPS. This leaves little ambiguity on what Airbus wants to happen.

My particular airline SOP has no special case for go around with less than landing flaps.

So, having said all that, what would I do in this situation?
I would call GO AROUND STANDBY FLAPS, and consider myself as knowingly breaking an FCOM procedure, that was badly written and doesn't account for my situation. But better to not follow the FCOM than get the aircraft into an undesired state.

Then, at S speed, call Flaps Zero.

[Dupre]

Airmanship. Have you heard of it?

Akindofmagic, a completely useless and negative post. Your tone will make pilots on here think twice about posting questions, for fear of that kind of snide response.

[mcdude]

The scenario implies the aircraft is on final approach because by definition a go-around is only issued to aircraft on final approach therefore the technique to "select a speed below the manoeuvring speed of the present configuration" is probably not being used correctly or the scenario is invalid. Also - only CONF 2 & CONF 3 are certified for go-around (unless above MLW) hence you really do need to apply some airmanship in this scenario.

[Check Airman]

Bkdoss,

Yours is a very good question.

My FCOM says:
GO AROUND........... ANNOUNCE
FLAPS lever..........SELECT AS REQUIRED
Retract one step of flaps

So, having said all that, what would I do in this situation?
I would call GO AROUND STANDBY FLAPS, and consider myself as knowingly breaking an FCOM procedure, that was badly written and doesn't account for my situation. But better to not follow the FCOM than get the aircraft into an undesired state.

Surely you can't expect the SOP to cover every conceivable event. The GA SOP is written for the worst case scenario- a low level GA at mins.

I think it's reasonable for Airbus to assume that you can handle one from 2500ft without having to hold your hand. Would you then be inclined to file a safety report because you violated the SOP?

For what it's worth, I willingly broke my SOP 2 nights ago, as I landed with the wipers on in the rain. Poorly written SOP.

[Bkdoss]

With decelerated approach being the order of the day go around with less than landing flap setting should form part of approach briefing. Normally airlines do revise GA procedure but that doesn't cover this aspect.

So true Vilas. That was where I was getting to. I have considerable time on the Airbus, and am someone who keeps revisiting the FCOM regularly and was surprised that I never thought about this scenario in years. With so much emphasis on cost cutting and fuel saving these days, decelerated approaches are the order of the day. The airline or the manufacturer, I feel, has to discuss about this scenario in a little more detail, so that someone doesn't screw a go around.

[Ollie Onion]

Just leave it in Flap 1' call Go Around 'NO FLAP' or something to that effect, this is what you are paid for. The published missed approach procedure is there for the worst case scenario and some of the actions are only appropriated in that scenario. In your scenario you won't have the gear down either but I assume you will still call 'positive climb' and 'gear up'. Makes the procedure to fit, we have a certain missed approach in my operation that has a speed constraint of 160 kts about 10 mm passed the missed approach point so if we go-around from flap 2 we will not retract any flap to enable compliance with that constraint.

[Bkdoss]

Surely you can't expect the SOP to cover every conceivable event. The GA SOP is written for the worst case scenario- a low level GA at mins.

I think it's reasonable for Airbus to assume that you can handle one from 2500ft without having to hold your hand. Would you then be inclined to file a safety report because you violated the SOP?

I understand this. But the problem stems from the fact that there are many operators in the world, including mine, where they induct Direct Entry Captains from a different type and release them after 100 hrs of training on the left. To be honest, with some newly released captains in my company, airmanship and situational awareness is virtually non existent. In their defense, they are transitioning from a Pilots' aircraft like Boeing to a Techies' aircraft 'Airbus' and they find it difficult to cope up with the automation initially. In such a context they condition themselves to follow SOP religiously so as to keep themselves well within the safety envelope.

So now if I were to execute a Go Around from that altitude with such a PM, he'd retract flaps because that's what the SOP says. The aim of SOP and FCOM procedures Is to keep even the less experienced guys within the safety envelope. Keeping that in mind, I find it prudent that a small note of caution on this scenario should be added, which would give everyone more awareness of what to expect and how to react.

[Bkdoss]

Bkdoss,

Yours is a very good question.

My FCOM says:
GO AROUND........... ANNOUNCE
FLAPS lever..........SELECT AS REQUIRED
Retract one step of flaps

It makes no allowance for a go around in flaps 1 and therefore, requires retraction of flaps, potentially putting the aircraft in an undesired state.

Moreover, the standard callout is "GO AROUND - FLAPS". not GO AROUND, not GO AROUND STANDBY FLAPS. This leaves little ambiguity on what Airbus wants to happen.

My particular airline SOP has no special case for go around with less than landing flaps.

So, having said all that, what would I do in this situation?
I would call GO AROUND STANDBY FLAPS, and consider myself as knowingly breaking an FCOM procedure, that was badly written and doesn't account for my situation. But better to not follow the FCOM than get the aircraft into an undesired state.

Then, at S speed, call Flaps Zero.

That's an excellent suggestion Dupre. I would consider doing that too in the future. It's just that on ground everything makes sense but if someone had to experience this first hand, he'd be caught off-guard. At least I know that I have some defense mechanism having thought about this and discussed with people like you on prune.

[Check Airman]

Fair point BKdos, but wouldn't the more experienced pilot in the other seat catch the error? Is he not also qualified?

I've never seen the scenario play out in the sim, but I imagine the instructor would forgive the PF for calling out "GA Flaps". The PM would get scolded for actually doing it though.

I agree that SOP is written to cover less experienced pilots, but some degree of proficiency has to be assumed, right? The SOP doesn't say to adjust the temperature if it's too low, but somehow, we manage, right?

[Bkdoss]

BK
There are additional procedures like Landing with slat/flap jam or overweight landing. On ground in spare time if you question the why and how of these procedures it becomes very easy to apply them when the need arises and helps keep track of what one is doing. Otherwise mere button pushing with ECAM can leave one unsure of what he has done.

Thanks for the suggestion, Vilas. I keep doing that all the time. This question that propped up in my mind is also a product of such pondering. I'm sure after this discussion, i have this scenario covered and under my control.

[Master of the House]

Like you said nothing wrong with doing it but I'd be taking flap 2 in this situation for sure. My company even mandates taking the next flap if flying below current manoeuvre speed. I think it's a good idea usually.

[Bkdoss]

That's a good idea. Solves a lot of troubles.

[vilas]

BK
Once the procedure is understood in it's entirety then it's applicability at a different stage should be included in approach briefing so nothing is left to chance or confusion during execution. Airbus go around was discussed in 2009 Toulouse Instructor meeting. I had quoted that one year ago. The Emirates Dubai accident may have been avoided if the variation in the go around procedure after touch down was included in the briefing. They carried out normal go around actions which doesn't advance throttles to TOGA if the aircraft has touched down. So with only idle power the aircraft came down and the PM thought he was being smart had retracted the gear quickly without checking sustained climb. That is another popular mistake because people think they may forget to raise the gear. FMA is more important. It ensures everything from TOGA to FDs in GA.

[Check Airman]

Vilas, you're obviously knowledgeable on the matter at hand. Your last post mentions (rightfully) that EK in DXB may have been avoided if briefed. That's true for the vast majority of accidents. At what point do you stop briefing though?

Someone's mind is likely to start wandering about a minute into the approach and landing dissertation that some people give. I find it more effective to spend most of the time focusing on what's likely to go wrong, instead of going down the never ending list of what could go wrong.

[bodypilot]

I have considerable time on the Airbus

are you sure about this?

[Bkdoss]

are you sure about this?
Depending on what you understand by considerable time, the answer could range from a ‘No’ to a ‘Maybe’ to a ‘Yes’. Jokes apart, if you were trying to be cynical with your remarks, I’m sorry, I’m not someone to be offended. Certainly, I work my ass off to know about the systems and the aircraft that I fly. But I’m sure there would always be something that I might have glazed over or never really thought about. And if that happens, any day in my flying career, be it the last day before I hang my boots, I’d still try my best to clarify and learn and I’d be brazenly unapologetic about it.

[Bkdoss]

BK
Once the procedure is understood in it's entirety then it's applicability at a different stage should be included in approach briefing so nothing is left to chance or confusion during execution. Airbus go around was discussed in 2009 Toulouse Instructor meeting. I had quoted that one year ago. The Emirates Dubai accident may have been avoided if the variation in the go around procedure after touch down was included in the briefing. They carried out normal go around actions which doesn't advance throttles to TOGA if the aircraft has touched down. So with only idle power the aircraft came down and the PM thought he was being smart had retracted the gear quickly without checking sustained climb. That is another popular mistake because people think they may forget to raise the gear. FMA is more important. It ensures everything from TOGA to FDs in GA.

Good suggestion Vilas, thanks a ton, your suggestions are extremely valuable. I would be well served if I could imbibe these when I soon transition to the left.

[vilas]

Check Airman
I am in agreement with you that briefing cannot include everything that can go wrong. But GA is not too distant a possibility on any approach. When an aircraft has two distinct procedures for GA it's good thing to include both in the briefing. It's not a new information to be memorized but only reminder of a procedure that the pilots must already know. It should not burden human short term memory.

[Dale Hardale]

From the FCTM:

If selected speed is to be used to comply with ATC, the requested speed should be selected on the FCU. A speed below the manoeuvring speed of the present configuration may be selected provided it is above VLS.I think this should be read that the ATC required speed can indeed be selected on the FCU, but that the aircraft flap position should respect the 'S' and 'F' speeds. - i.e. below 'S' speed, flap 2 should be selected.

I don't think the intention is ever to fly around in extended flight below 'S' speed with only Flap 1 selected. Not a good idea chaps.

Bit like flying around in a Boeing at VREF + 40 with flap 1, when the flaps should be at 5. It's not done.

As a separate discussion, regarding a go-around in flaps 1:

- It's the actual slats or flaps position that determines whether SRS is available. Anything apart from clean will generate it.
- So the the thrust levers need to be in the TOGA detent with MAN TOGA annunciated before the wing is fully clean. Common sense would suggest making the "go-around flaps" call after MAN TOGA is annunciated .

[Check Airman]

From the FCTM:


I think this should be read that the ATC required speed can indeed be selected on the FCU, but that the aircraft flap position should respect the 'S' and 'F' speeds.

That's not what it says though, does it?

There are some airports that routinely have you low and slow on arrival for an extended time. No reason to add drag while you're doing it in my opinion.

[Dale Hardale]

Disagree - it says the speed can be selected.

It's up to you to look after the flaps.

Good luck with your technique as the speed comes down to VLS in turbulence etc. with slats only extended. I won't be flying with you.:uhoh:

[FlightDetent]

Dale, come on. There is around 40 knots between S speed and Vls. And I do think you are reading the sentence incorrectly.

Flying below manouvering speed for a given conf is not a problem, VLS (or the proximity of) is the reasonable slow limit.

[vilas]

Dale
- It's the actual slats or flaps position that determines whether SRS is available.
Not true at all. It's the lever position and not the surface position that allows GA to be available. Even with slats and flaps jammed at the zero flap lever is moved to one to make GA mode available. While airbus has amply clarified that one can fly below F and S speed but when it is required for sustained period appropriate Conf should be selected.

[pineteam]

Disagree - it says the speed can be selected.

It's up to you to look after the flaps.

Good luck with your technique as the speed comes down to VLS in turbulence etc. with slats only extended. I won't be flying with you.:uhoh:

So what if the speed comes down to VLS? It's the minimum selected speed. You can actually fly below VLS even so it's obviously not recommended to do it on purpose . It's V&prot you should be more concerned. Always amazed me how people are concerned to be flying close to VLS or Green Dot at low altitude in calm conditions when you have so much extra power available.. GD, F & S speeds are your target speed on single engine... So with 2 engines, unless you fly into threatening turbulence, it's very acceptable to fly at or below manoeuvring speed if required as the FCTM clearly states. Flying in China, they often asked you to slow down to 180kts when you are still 50nm out. On an A321, would mean at least flaps 2 if we would fly above manoeuvring speed. Well no thanks!! I rather save fuel and the environment.:p
Heard some guys used to set flaps 2 then back to flaps 1 to have 1+F during the approach but they got snapped by the training division for doing that. I beleive it's not recommended by Airbus, but I can't find any official documentations about it.

[Arctaurus]

The flap lever will obviously be in the one detent or greater, but it is indeed whether the wing is clean or not which determines whether SRS is available.

It's in the FCTM somewhere - don't have one in front of me right now

[vilas]

You can actually fly below VLS even so it's obviously not recommended to do it on purpose . It's V&prot you should be more concerned. Sorry it is not correct. Flying below GD, F, S and VLS is not the same. Flying below VLS is not permitted nor desired. This is like saying Vapp is not important you should worry about stick shaker. Very unsafe habit.
Arctaurus
but it is indeed whether the wing is clean or not which determines whether SRS is available.
It's in the FCTM somewhere - don't have one in front of me right now

It's nowhere in FCTM and don't bother searching you won't find it. It's not the wing but only Flap lever 1 or more gives you SRS.

[vilas]

Arctaurus
From FCOM DSC-22_30-80-40 P 1/2
Setting at least one thrust lever to the TOGA detent engages both SRS/NAV modes, if:
‐ The flaps lever is at least in position 1, and
‐ The aircraft is in flight, or ‐ The aircraft has been on ground for less than 30 s

[pineteam]

Hello Vilas, =)

I did not express myself clearly: Yes we shall definitely not fly below VLS. What I try to say is that if for example you are flying with A/THR off and your speed drops slightly below VLS, There is no reason to panic, the aircraft is not going to be on an undesired state as long actions are taken without undue delay. the FCTM states that VAPP can be as low as VLS in case of A/THR off, no ice acreation etc... Surely if your target speed is VLS, they might consider the fact you might fly below it inadvertently. I personally always keep a nice minimum of 5 kt margin from VLS regardless of the kind of the approach. I rather have too much energy than too little.

[lurkio]

Not looking for an argument.

DSC 22_20-60-40 Flight guidance (extract only)

15 ° when the aircraft speed is below the maneuvering speeds (F, S, or Green Dot speed) -10 kt
Then linear increase to 25 ° up to maneuvering speeds (F, S, or Green Dot speed) -3 kt
25 ° above maneuvering speeds (F, S, or Green Dot speed) -3 kt.

Just to show that Airbus describe them as manoeuvring speeds no matter how they spell it.

[FlightDetent]

3310

The double use of the same term is somewhat unfortunate. But we can always have at the definitions chapter as well:

3311

[mrs nomer]

It's nowhere in FCTM and don't bother searching you won't find it.

I found this in the FCTM:

[pineteam]

FCOM clearly states that SRS will engage as long as you are not in clean configuration. Also in the ABN- Flaps/slats locked at zero it says to set at least the flaps lever to 1 purely in case of Go around to get the go around mode engaged when you set TOGA. So It's definetely regardless of the actual slats/flaps postion.

[vilas]

Arctaurus and mrs nomer
When the thrust levers are set to the TOGA detent, and provided the real slats/flaps configuration is different from clean configuration
Not your fault, surely you will find it in FCTM. But it is one big howler by Airbus. It is simply not true. Not because I say so but because FCOM says so, because with slat and flaps jammed even at 0 zero Abnormal procedures ask you to select flap1 to get GA mode. Also FCTM says the following:
If the FCTM data differs from the FCOM data, the FCOM remains the reference. So the matter should end there.

[pineteam]

Thumbs up for Vilas the A320 Master! :p

[lurkio]

DSC 22_30-80-40 Go-around.

Setting at least one thrust lever to the TOGA detent engages both SRS/NAV modes, if:
The flaps lever is at least in position 1, and
The aircraft is in flight, or
The aircraft has been on ground for less than 30 s (AP disengages and can be re-engaged 5 s after lift-off).

Pretty clear I would say (My bold).

[aerobat77]

well, in real life getting an instruction being on glide but in 2500 ft ( very very uncommon atc gives you such a thing ) to go around ( which is more an instruction to abort the approach than immediately go around in this scenario ) of course there is no need to apply toga and trigger the speed and pitch commands on the airbus but simply to stop descend and smoothly climb out again . adjust vertical speed, adjust flaps as needed and do a normal climbout .

the airbus definition to "go around" is a scenario on short final , being fully configured and at approach speed. in this case the airbus design logic and instructions fully apply .

who gives toga being at 2500ft and roughly 6-8 miles from the threshold at 160 kts ?

this scenario and the thoughts about it seem to be purely theoretical.

best regards

[vilas]

lurkio
It is true They are described as manoeuvre speeds. Airbus 17th Performance and operations conference Dubai gives a detailed description of what they are and how to use them. Extract below:
• Flap maneuvering speeds are recommended to fly the aircraft in a given flaps configuration for:
• Comfort in aircraft maneuver:
• Green Dot, S, F are comfortable
• Particularly in turbulent conditions, or
• For turns at high bank angle
• Flap maneuvering speeds are not limitations:
It is safe to fly between VLS and VMAX (VMO, VLE, VFE) :
The required aerodynamic margin is properly ensured.

[lurkio]

Vilas, thank you for that. You have mentioned this conference a couple of times, where can we have a look at the report or details?
Always good to learn.

[vilas]

Check the other thread I quoted some more info about this. You can check on this: https://www.scribd.com/document/182980195/Characteristic-speeds-pdf

[lurkio]

Sincere thanks vilas.

[PILOTINHO]

Hi Charlies Angel. Thanks for your reply. I'm sorry I didn't paraphrase my question correctly. Say you're at 2500 feet when your G/S intercept altitude is 3000. You're on glide and suppose the Go Around altitude is 7000'. Then you're in a mess having retracted flaps to zero.

In this case as the VLS increase the airplane will pitch down to let the IAS increase together with the VLS. Anyway there is also another procedure that airbus use for this kind of scenario, the name is discontinue approach (you simple press approach and the airplane goes back to heading and vertical speed, no flaps retraction anything, then if you need to climb just pull for open climb and that is all).

[vilas]

PILOTINHO
This discussion is going round in circles like a cat trying to catch it's own tail. To recap everything, it started with, we are at 2500ft at CONF1 (below FAP of 3000ft) and ATC gives you speed constraint of 150kts. First, no constraints are given once on the glide. Second, if constraint was given the obvious course is to select CONF2, albeit 500ft higher or 30seconds earlier from the desired height of 2000ft. If you are that fuel conscious delay the gear a bit. Third, If asked to GA just leave the flap as it is since it is retracted purely for MA gradient. Now you are suggesting open climb which is in THRCLB. What happens to the gradient? If it meets then why we GA with MAN TOGA at all? Discontinue approach is an option only if FCU altitude is at or below aircraft altitude. Below FCU altitude standard GA is mandatory.

[EcamSurprise]

First, no constraints are given once on the glide.

ATC giving you speed constraints of 160 to 4, 170 to 5 or 180 to 6 on the glide is a normal daily occurrence in Europe at busy airports. It's either published in the AOI of the airfield or they'll instruct it once you're establishing.

[PENKO]

who gives toga being at 2500ft and roughly 6-8 miles from the threshold at 160 kts ?

this scenario and the thoughts about it seem to be purely theoretical.

best regards

Unfortunately it is SOP in my company, one of the largest narrow isle Airbus operators, to TOGA our way out of every missed approach.
We used to be able to discontinue an approach (pushing V/S 0 etc), but that was taken away from us when below missed approach altitude. Now it's TOGA, even 6 miles out.

[IcePack]

Aerobat 77. I’d be interest how you are going to get the bus out of the approach phase by doing that.

[PENKO]

Activate the secondary..or enter a new cruise alt.

[IcePack]

Or tap toga :)