Emirates: New "Acid" test after Recurrent SIM!

[777747]

Ladies and Gentlemen

STANDARDS ON THE LINE

You will be aware that we have experienced some poorly managed events on the line over the last few months; unfortunately we experienced another one last week. In Training we promote the fact that we are driven by evidence, well the evidence indicates that that these events can no longer be viewed as isolated events, therefore it is imperative action is taken to stop the onset of a potential trend. We need to raise the levels of airmanship, awareness, suspicion and professionalism across our pilot community. Let me state that we are of the firm belief that the vast majority of our pilots are professional, proficient, efficient and effective. Unfortunately, the evidence indicates there is still work to be done to bring a small minority of pilots to this standard. The acid test, as always is, if following any training/checking session you would not be confident with the pilot flying your loved ones into some of the demanding destinations, terrain, weather and ATC environments which we operate into, then you have to flag those concerns to Training Management by accurately grading and reporting your observations.

In reviewing the events of the last few months we have asked ourselves what are we doing wrong? What are we missing? What’s the root cause? Why is our training and checking not able to identify those pilots who underperform on the line? Whilst the PFs and PMs in each case demonstrated failures in one or more of the pilot competencies, it was the loss of Situation Awareness and ineffective Pilot monitoring which were so concerning; we therefore need to enhance our training with regards to both. We have already started this in the current round of RTGS, where we present the Flight Data Monitoring playbacks from some of the events in question and then facilitate a discussion on what went wrong and what could have been done to prevent the situation from developing. However it is obvious that we need to do more, therefore in cooperation with Fleet we have decided to introduce the following changes:

· Trainers are to re-emphasize the importance of Pilot Monitoring duties during all Training and Checking events; this is to happen with immediate effect.
· Recurrent training to include a manually flown (Auto Pilot/Auto Throttle off) short sector, focusing on SA and Monitoring. We already cover this on Day 3 on the A380 using NCE; Boeing will introduce something similar on Day 2, this will be effective from 1 Oct this year. Emphasis is to be placed on the Pilot Monitoring making timely exceedance calls and demonstrating a satisfactory level of monitoring throughout the session. Please continue to insert ‘distractors’ during your sessions to mirror the distractions encountered on the line. The PM is to prioritise his workload to ensure his own SA and the safety of the aircraft are never compromised.
· We have re-written the word pictures for the Communication and the Leadership, Teamwork and Support PAMs to include more focus on PM skills. The FCI detailing these changes will be published shortly and will be effective immediately on receipt.
· During a training/checking session should a pilot miss a number of radio or SOP calls which might jeopardise the safety of the flight, or if their attitude or professionalism is called into question then the pilot is to be graded a ‘1’ for Leadership, Teamwork and Support. I accept this is subjective and whilst I would not expect to see a trainee fail because of a ‘few’ missed calls, several missed radio and/or SOP calls could be indicative of capacity or SA issues, so additional training is entirely appropriate.
· Any commander who is graded a ‘1’ or a ‘2’ for any competency during Day 1 or 2 of their recurrent simulator session will continue with their remaining simulator sessions, unless they are removed by a Training Manager. However, on completion of their recurrent training sessions a review of their performance will be conducted by Training/Fleet management prior to the commander being released back to the line; this is effective immediately.
· We will develop learning modules to improve knowledge and understanding of Auto Flight Systems modes. In the interim it is vital that you not only train Automation awareness but also the understanding of the modes.
· 25% of line checks will be planned as ‘No Notice’, this will be effective from the next planned roster. If you are rostered for one of these No Notice line checks, it is important you do not make the rostered crew aware – we are trying to get better visibility over our crews’ standards and level of preparedness – a true No Notice line check will give us that.
· Safety will provide Training with a list of our most challenging destinations and where possible Line Checks will be planned to these destinations going forward.
· There will be an additional 1-week ground school introduced for all new conversion courses to enhance/refresh fundamental ATPL knowledge; date for implementation TBD.
· Starting 1 Feb 2018, Day 3 of the recurrent PPC will be separated from Day 1 and 2. This will give trainees more regular exposure throughout the year to manual flight in the simulator as well as the opportunity to practise their monitoring skills. This initiative will also address the negative feedback we have received relating to 3 x deep night duties in a row and the limited training value gained from the 3rd night.
· We will be working with a third party research team to trial ‘eye tracking’ functionality in the simulator. We will use the results of the trial in the following RTGS phase to demonstrate the effectiveness, or not, of some crews’ scanning techniques during various stages of the flight.

In conclusion, the recent spate of poorly managed events on the line is deeply disappointing. Inaction on our part was simply not an option; as a result I hope you understand why these actions are being taken. It is vital that as trainers we lead by example and we demonstrate the standards others wish to aspire to. We recognise that ‘change’ can lead to uncertainty, especially if that change is introduced quickly. Therefore, if you are faced with a situation during your training and checking sessions over the coming weeks and are unsure of what is expected of you, please call your training management team who will be happy to assist.

As always thank you for your continued support.


SVP Flight Training

[777747]

I dont suppose it has anything to do with driving off your experienced crew, fatigue and stress culture? Oh, and the primary factor.. Greed.

[ibelieveicanfly]

What's going on and on? More and more pressure on pilots by all this coming? Did you see also the captain roster who was involved in DME?
All of us flying too much since months with jetlag and accumulating of fatigue. Please lighten the hours per month,this will NOT work on a long term basis...the human body can just not cope with such an amount of work and stress(fear factor reinforced by the company ). I think I am an average pilot,not top notch but for sure safe from A to B in all the different environment EK flies to and prepared enough for each flight,try to be rested as much as I can, prepared for line and sim checks but that goes too far!!!

[Mr Angry from Purley]

777747 ME forum perhaps?

[WonderBus]

I think this is relevant to all of us as a whole, to compare and contrast the hands we're dealt. It's certainly worrying that EK are taking this line.

It flies in the face of an open safety culture where individuals feel comfortable to admit mistakes so that an airline can monitor trends and train them out. Blaming pilots rather than looking at all the factors involved is merely laying the foundations for the next accident.

This email will serve to increase stress levels, push mistakes to be covered up and make for a worse place to work. It's arse covering of the higher order, managers threatening pilots so they can report to those above that they've 'dealt' with the issue. It's merely compounded an existing issue.

I feel for the guys involved as no one makes mistakes on purpose or sets out to have a bad day. Being PM and monitoring effectively is hard enough when fully alert, but when flying through the night becomes that much harder. Add to this now the complete b******s in the email above, the stressors are heightened.

[gearlever]

Waht's an "ACID" test?

[Propellerpilot]

Waht's an "ACID" test?

LSD :eek: :D

[gearlever]

Aah, that's what I expected:O

[wiggy]

gearlever

Forgive me if you know this but just in case... "acid test" is a colloquialism (vernacular) used in English to describe what test/decider you are using, above all others, to decide the result of something..

e.g. Following a check ride: "Never mind that he flew the instrument rating within the numerical limits, the acid test here is would be you be happy with this individual flying your family from A to B in bad weather?"

Hence the comment in the original post-

The acid test, as always is, if following any training/checking session you would not be confident with the pilot flying your loved ones into some of the demanding destinations, terrain, weather and ATC environments which we operate into, then you have to flag those concerns to Training Management by accurately grading and reporting your observations.

'Acid test' - the meaning and origin of this phrase (http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/acid-test.html)

[Tu.114]

A test to show presence of gold. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Acid_test_(gold))

This is a rather interesting letter and speaks volumes on the company (the caveat applies: if it is genuine).

The incident is a few days old and certainly not yet investigated, but already they are springing to action. Not by asking questions both to the crewmembers and to the organisation behind them, but by increasing pressure on the crews and maybe most shockingly also introducing a non-equal treatment of crew members. The assignment of surprise line checks that only 25% of the crews are subjected to will likely not increase trust and confidence in the group of pilots. Such a policy may be a powerful weapon for the company to weed out people it considers unwanted, seeing that the fail quota will necessarily be higher than with openly rostered line checks.

Or am I misunderstanding this? Does such an unannounced line check come with a different, less harsh failure policy?

[gearlever]

'Acid test' - the meaning and origin of this phrase (http://www.phrases.org.uk/meanings/acid-test.html)

thx wiggy :ok:

[General Dogsbody]

The End of TRAINING in the Airline...

[atakacs]

Can anyone vouch for the authenticity of this ?

I muss say it would be extremely concerning if true.

[Dan_Brown]

Gone are the days when a recurrent was a "fun" exercise to brush up on procedures not done routinely on the line. Whilst i agree with as much manual flying practise as can be accommadated, what is being done to find the route causes of recent incidences. As correctly stated, fatigue must come near the top. What about the selection process? What about training? Are the pilots happy? An unhappy, stressed and fatiqued pilot will make more errors in operating including judgment, as anyone with any signicant experience will be aware.

So you are called upon to rat on a fellow aviator. Sums it up.

[GoreTex]

EK will never get it

[pfvspnf]

Why are you posting this on pprune and not an internal memo ?!

[Wingman82]

I did not get such an email "STANDARDS ONTHE LINE". Is that a joke or did you wrote that?@777747

[Sqwak7700]

Surely this is a wind up, right? Would be massive warning flag if not.

[parabellum]

When it got to the "No Notice' line checks I gave it up as a well written spoof, it is a wind up, I believe. The No Notice check of 25% would be similar to a CAA inspector check, not looking for individual performance, more looking for team work all carried out SOP, more a standardisation check for the company.

[bluesideoops]

I don't know how EK management can have a meeting, the room must surely be full of elephants!

[sealear]

Fake me thinks.

[Big Enos Burdette]

I did not get such an email "STANDARDS ONTHE LINE". Is that a joke or did you wrote that?@777747

The email was only sent to instructors apparently.


For some strange reason, this thread is getting bumped down to the 2nd page of threads due to inaccurate post date & time stamp.

[nolimitholdem]

Fatigue is cumulative. Of course it catches up eventually. You can mitigate it with experience for awhile, but if there isn't as much experience as there once was...er...emm...

never mind.

Architects of their own demise. Same as it ever was. :ugh:

[Eau de Boeing]

It is real and was sent to instructors only. It was out on whatsapp under an hour later. Yet another big stick to save face and nothing else.

[Old King Coal]

A source (inside EK) tells me that Training Department communication (sent to the Instructors) is NOT a spoof. Oh how the mighty fall and one does have to wonder how they ever got themselves into such a precarious place?! :ooh:

[donpizmeov]

Everyone knows how this point was reached. It's been mentioned for 7+ yrs, just never taken seriously.

[haveago]

Shocking! A total embarrassment to aviation! They just don't get it. This has been created entirely by the people at the top. Fear Fear Fear! Experienced levels at an all time low in every role! Rule with the iron fist. When will anyone at the top realise that they themselves are creating the next smoking hole! lets train! Be allowed to train! Have a student ask questions and help them. I get fed up with people stating they learn more on the line than during training. The fear of being graded a 2 for asking the instructor to explain something that is not understood! It is a complete joke!! Is there any other airline that operates like this. WE all came from somewhere before. Open training. Support the student! Help the student! Im fed up with this place! If i only I could leave!!!! Well done Emirates!!!!! Well done for destroying many careers and destroying the love of a what should be a great job. Well Done!!

[SOPS]

The wheels have really, well and truely, fallen off now. Reading between the lines, it seems to me, they are looking even harder for scapegoats now. Anything to prevent them having to admit what has caused this huge fcuking mess in the first place. What the hell has happened to a once great airline?

Al of us on here knows where this could be heading....but those on the third and ninth floor continue to do nothing...but blame the 'lazy' pilots, yet again.:ugh::ugh:

[sluggums]

Bonuses need to be protected minions...! Compliant sycophants was what someone said about the mis-management. Couldn't agree more...

[what_goes_up]

Any other major carrier in the world conducting "surprise unannounced" line checks to try and catch their pilots out off guard and unprepared for a check ride?

From 1st Nov for every single flight, we are to sit in the briefing room wondering if a checker may or may not pitch up? How does this improve airmanship or SA? Guys will be get stressed out over this, loose sleep and when the third guy doesn't appear and the mini "fight or flight" fades, crew performance may well fall below that of a standard line flight.
Where's the problem? You should be able to pass a line check on any of your line flights... If you only pass because you prepare more than for a normal flight, you should not be in the hot seat anyways.

[777-200LR]

Where's the problem? You should be able to pass a line check on any of your line flights... If you only pass because you prepare more than for a normal flight, you should not be in the hot seat anyways

What goes up, be careful, I was shot at point blank range on another thread for suggesting the same.

[what_goes_up]

What goes up, be careful, I was shot at point blank range on another thread for suggesting the same.
:O I am prepared to take the heat. But I stand my point. If you specifically need to prepare for a Line Check, which is nothing more than a regular Line Flight, you should not be in an operational role.

[Cloud Bunny]

True. But I think the point is that all this will create is an added level of undue pressure, causing stress levels to be increased which will in turn increase the likelihood of mistakes being made, missed calls etc etc. They will then turn round and condem you on the back of this.
You're right at any stage, day or night we should be able to go into a sim and fly any procedure, deal with any emergency and have a successful outcome. With zero prep. This scenario doesn't mirror that and they are very very wrong if they think it does.
If someone was to go and sit next to a receptionist and tell her that "today if you make a singal spelling mistake in any of your typing, you're fired. And I'm going to sit here and watch everything you type." What's going to happen? They'll make a spelling mistake in the first sentence they write. Does this prove they are incompetent and totally unsuitable? No. It demonstrates a perfectly normal human psychological reaction to being put under that level of scrutiny without notice. A 'startle effect' of sorts if you will.
Once again they have an opportunity for change, to make things better and again it would seem they're going to f this up too.

[what_goes_up]

True. But I think the point is that all this will create is an added level of undue pressure, causing stress levels to be increased which will in turn increase the likelihood of mistakes being made, missed calls etc etc. They will then turn round and condem you on the back of this.
You're right at any stage, day or night we should be able to go into a sim and fly any procedure, deal with any emergency and have a successful outcome. With zero prep. This scenario doesn't mirror that and they are very very wrong if they think it does.
If someone was to go and sit next to a receptionist and tell her that "today if you make a singal spelling mistake in any of your typing, you're fired. And I'm going to sit here and watch everything you type." What's going to happen? They'll make a spelling mistake in the first sentence they write. Does this prove they are incompetent and totally unsuitable? No. It demonstrates a perfectly normal human psychological reaction to being put under that level of scrutiny without notice. A 'startle effect' of sorts if you will.
Once again they have an opportunity for change, to make things better and again it would seem they're going to f this up too.
Yes and no. To fail a check it needs more than just a "hic up" (or a spelling error as in your example). There might be things to discuss but that doesn't mean to fail. A fail does not nean you are fired either. But quite obviously there is something to be looked at and, maybe, re-trained. There have been several examples, even recently, of pilots being re-trained.
If an unannounced check increases the level of pressure as such that you cannot perform properly anymore, one might have to think about if the chosen profession is the right one. There seems to be a problem that we have pilots that do not perform up to the required standards (and I don't want to point fingers at the colleagues in DME, as we don't know enough to judge). I believe this is an appropriate mean to filter them out and give them the chance to improve with training.

[KOLDO]

Agree 100%, however, in the recent past years, the vast majority was proud of the famous ¨no spoon fed¨training system. So, things happens and now people wants to rethink and disagree with a system that everyone knew was not the best?
Again, agree, but hard to swallow guys. With all due respect.

[Piltdown Man]

Let's assume this missive is true. Then EK's training department believe the company has a problem and the cause is a few "bad apples". And if it wasn't for these few bad apples these events would not have happened. The cause we are told is because these people have poor situational awareness and are ineffective in monitoring the pilot flying. There also appears to be a lack of understanding of the automation.

So the proposed solution is to do spot checks on "No notice" line checks, make people pay attention, grass up your colleagues and to be more rigorous when training i.e. all pilots are now flying under the company's safety cosh. So presumably once the bad apples have been identified and disposed of, safety will be restored and the management will be able to sleep soundly knowing everything has been fixed.

If only the real world was as simple as the solution proposed. I'll suggest management nightmares will shortly start. Nastily little reports will be posted by disgruntled, small minded individuals. The check and training staff will be viewed as executioners, normally solid and reliable pilots will start under-performing and training be viewed as a threat rather than an opportunity to learn. This will result in the wrong people being flung out and absolutely no improvement in safety in fact possible the opposite.

So what might be the real problem? The first and most obvious is that the wrong people have and are probably still being recruited. Whilst many obviously have the "right stuff" there are still too many who might be regarded as below standard. I know of some are not left alone whilst their colleagues take a comfort break. And does the company's demands of residency in the Emirates dissuade many people who be regarded as the right stuff from joining and those with experience from leaving. After all, I don't know if any other company in the world with a leaving list. Then we have the way this company trains and operates. The assumption is that the SOP's are perfect and if crew's stick to this, respond to every R/T call and "pay more attention" then all will be fine. But just how will their training improve their crew's situational awareness? And are they actually up to the task of training flight crew from all around the world (Just shout louder at these bloody foreigners)? And is the culture at EK part if the problem? I don't know of any proper company that encourages staff to "dob their mates in" yet this note requests just that. Nobody likes a grass all this will achieve is a truly poisonous atmosphere. And of course we come to the interesting aspect of rostering and rest. Could this possibly be a contributor to EK's recent spate of incidents?

Who ever wrote "Standards on the Line" has almost certainly stopped the real root cause of EK's incidents from coming to light if for no other reason than it ignores the basic fact that aircraft are flown by Mk I human beings. Apart from doing virtually every thing right, they occasionally do things wrong. You reduce the number and severity of things going wrong by training, encouraging and supporting everybody. Trapping, punishing and humiliating those who commit errors will certainly stop some things from going wrong but will never, ever stop all of them. But by creating a poisonous environment both on the line and in the sim. EK's training department will cut off the supply of real information it desperately needs in order to fix the real underlying faults that exist in its operations; FDM data is pretty useless in supplying the human story behind the numbers.

If I were EK management I would check out your insurance cover and seek out some strong sleeping medication. I think you will need both after the training department had terrorised your pilot corps.

PM

[Old King Coal]

Professor Sidney Dekker on Why Things Go Wrong (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYlIEMNhqM4)... wouldn't you just love this guy to do an audit on the culture within EK (and over FZ too) ?... and he's pilot as well (B737 rated) !

[Airbubba]

Any other major carrier in the world conducting "surprise unannounced" line checks to try and catch their pilots out off guard and unprepared for a check ride?

From 1st Nov for every single flight, we are to sit in the briefing room wondering if a checker may or may not pitch up? How does this improve airmanship or SA?

We've had unannounced line checks in the U.S. for decades in my experience. Sometimes you know you are due for a line check (every two years for the PIC in an FAA AQP program) or can see an extra body on the flight crew list in the computer when you take a look at your jumpseat riders. Other times you are doing the departure paperwork when the 'friendly stranger' approaches you and announces that you are being checked.

Usually the line check with U.S. carriers is cordial and instructive unless you are not doing your job and something goes wrong during the flight. Don't know the failure rate but where I've worked, they are not out to get you in my opinion. I had a line check with a low fuel weather divert a few years ago and I put the check airman to work looking up alternates and communicating with dispatch. He was very pleased with the CRM and so was I. :ok:

Can anyone vouch for the authenticity of this

Surely this is a wind up, right? Would be massive warning flag if not.

Fake me thinks.

I was suspicious when I first read the email and when this whole thread was seemingly deleted I was pretty sure it was a hoax. But, it looks like it is real. :eek:

[victorpapa]

The real acid test is would you want to put your loved ones on an airline that has a training department that thinks like that.

Baled out of EK last year. Never looked back... exept in disgust.

[JAARule]

In reviewing the events of the last few months we have asked ourselves what are we doing wrong? What are we missing? What’s the root cause?

Maybe it's the same root cause behind malls and terminals flooding, marina walls bursting, three-storey aquariums cracking, high-rises catching fire (multiple times), incomplete terminals collapsing, dry-docks opening unannounced on workers, and even sections of cladding or windows falling out of EK buildings and striking employees, some of which events killed and/or injured people.

They could have a very, very safe airline if they wanted but instead everything needs to be the biggest, longest, fastest, tallest, shiniest, most profitable, etc. And it has to be now. TODAY.

If you look up "cultural hubris", Dubai is riddled with examples. That's okay, they are a shallow culture so no one expects anything different but when they add "cheapest" into the equation things begin to fall apart.

This latest event is no surprise. The letter is no surprise. Nothing is any longer a surprise. It is a testament to the stiffness of their upper lips that management can stand behind a letter like this without blinking.

I'd say the "root cause" is the hubris, greed, ready means and lack of any semblance of restraint, whatsoever, of the people in charge.

[homoeconomicus]

“When we can’t fit a square peg into a round hole, we’ll usually blame the peg—when sometimes it’s the rigidity of our thinking that accounts for our failure to accommodate it.”

[my salami]

“When we can’t fit a square peg into a round hole, we’ll usually blame the peg—when sometimes it’s the rigidity of our thinking that accounts for our failure to accommodate it.”

The solution to solve this problem is:
hammer harder till it fits....

MS

[skadonk]

Interesting article titled "When the error comes from an expert: The limits of expertise"

It uses EK521 as a case study. I hope the people in EK Human Factors dept are making their voices heard.

“It is all too easy to say, because crew errors led to an accident, that the crew was the problem: they should have been more careful or more skilful. This “blame and punish” mentality or even the more benign “blame and train” mentality does not support safety—in fact, it undermines safety by diverting attention from the underlying causes.

Admittedly in general aviation, many accidents do show evidence of poor judgment or of marginal skill. This is much less common in airline operations because of the high standards that are set for this type of operation. Nonetheless, whatever discussion about airline operation could have implications for general aviation.

There are two common fallacies about pilot error:

Fallacy 1: Error can be eliminated if pilots are sufficiently vigilant, conscientious, and proficient.
The truth is that vigilant, conscientious pilots routinely make mistakes, even in tasks at which they are highly skilled. Helmreich and his colleagues have found that on average airline crews make about two errors per flight leg and even more on challenging flights (Helmreich, Klinect, & Wilhelm, 1999; Klinect, Wilhelm, & Helmreich, 1999). And this is, if anything, an undercount because of the difficulty in observing all errors.

Fallacy 2: If an accident crew made errors in tasks that pilots routinely handle without difficulty, that accident crew was in some way deficient—either they lacked skill, or had a bad attitude, or just did not try hard enough.
But the truth is that the most skilful, conscientious expert in the world can perform a procedure perfectly a hundred times in a row and then do something wrong on the 101st trial. This is true in every field of expertise—medicine, music, and mountain climbing just as much as aviation (Reason, 1990).

To improve aviation safety we must stop thinking of pilot errors as the prime cause of accidents, but rather think of errors as the consequence of many factors that combine to create the conditions for accidents. It is easy in hindsight to identify ways any given accident could have been prevented, but that is of limited value because the combination of conditions leading to accidents has a large random component. The best way to reduce the accident rate is to develop ways to reduce vulnerability to error and to manage errors when they do occur.”

(I can't post the link to the full article because I'm 'not an experienced enough poster'. Can someone else post the link? Search for livingsafelywithhumanerror and/or 'when the error comes from an expert')

[Killer Loop]

https://livingsafelywithhumanerror.com/2016/12/08/when-the-error-comes-from-an-expert-the-limits-of-expertise/

[nolimitholdem]

We've had unannounced line checks in the U.S. for decades in my experience. Sometimes you know you are due for a line check (every two years for the PIC in an FAA AQP program) or can see an extra body on the flight crew list in the computer when you take a look at your jumpseat riders. Other times you are doing the departure paperwork when the 'friendly stranger' approaches you and announces that you are being checked.

Usually the line check with U.S. carriers is cordial and instructive unless you are not doing your job and something goes wrong during the flight. Don't know the failure rate but where I've worked, they are not out to get you in my opinion. I had a line check with a low fuel weather divert a few years ago and I put the check airman to work looking up alternates and communicating with dispatch. He was very pleased with the CRM and so was I. :ok:

I don't mean this in a rude way, but there is zero comparison between a Western, monoculture airline in the USA and an expat airline based in the Middle East. Completely different cultures in both the geographic and company sense.

[gtaflyer]

Guys you just don't get it do you? Or put it another way can you read the writing on the wall or better still try reading between the lines....

This evidence based thingy is the airlines "official" way of weeding out a lot of pilots instead of redundancy. A lot of pilots who have been in the company a long time are a payroll burden. Best way to get rid of them ? Sim check them and make them feel that for the last number of years they have been doing things the wrong way and their skills are substandard - why this same training department in the past was quite happy with your performance ? And now they want to chop people because they suddenly don't have certain skills in A,B C areas...Ironic that all this comes at a time when companies need to downsize, reduce people and aircraft because they are in financial trouble ! Is this a coincidence you may ask?

Guys and girls leave when you want to not when you are pushed out. Take control of your futures and happy safe flying. As the saying goes Nothing lasts forever !! And for those on the other side, every dog has his day.

[Dan_Brown]

Well said.

I thought "Chop Checks" went out with the Ark. These disgust me to the core. Anyone can be broken in a sim session but what does it prove? Nothing. I knew a guy that passed a "chop check", so he was given another one as soon as there was a slot. That was so they could get rid of him "legally".

Surely the checkers have enough b*lls to see whats going on and refuse to participate. The ones that haven't left that is. If they don't, then this is troubling in itself. Or am I on a different planet? I admit being a dinosaur.

[WB1900]

There is a reason why the wheels of an aircraft mounted with the torque wrinch.
keep em' to loose they will fall off by them self - tighten the bolts to hard they will break, and the wheels fall of - but blame the lazy bolt for just being there and not maintained and treaded well - it is for shure better to tell him how to be a better bolt and threaten him to be replaced if the maintance guy does not use the right tool.

[donpizmeov]

There do seem be several tools on the 3rd floor.

[JAYTO]

What's the best job in aviation.
Left seat line pilot. No more. No less.
With the latest email lets see how many heroes want to join the checking department now. Pay per duty. What a joke.
The company has made the position a joke. It should be a well respected positions taken up experienced employees who are treated well because they are needed to train the next generation of pilots. This company has made the position a part time joke for anyone with 400 hours left seat.
Good luck to the new heroes.

J

[Wh1sper]

I wonder how Dr N in Human Factors will react to the letter?

[alwayzinit]

"Reap as ye sow".
Root cause analysis done.
Until the very top accept that a) The "All they do is push buttons and sh@g hosties!" belief is b@lls b) you cannot expect an error free company when you cruxify anyone who owns up to a cock up. It will only get worse!:ugh:

[Airbubba]

I don't mean this in a rude way, but there is zero comparison between a Western, monoculture airline in the USA and an expat airline based in the Middle East. Completely different cultures in both the geographic and company sense.

Like a lot of us here I've certainly experienced both cultures. And I would observe that a couple of expat nationalities are famous for making training (and flying) absolutely miserable. ;)

Still, I would hope that most of us would be able to survive an unannounced line check. :ok:

[homoeconomicus]

The solution to solve this problem is:
hammer harder till it fits....

MS

Voila !!! It isn't more complicated than this 🤷*♂️.

[knifedge]

" YOU CAN'T SOLVE CURRENT PROBLEMS WITH THE CURRENT THINKING....

......CURRENT PROBLEMS ARE THE RESULT OF THE CURRENT THINKING "

Albert Einstein.

[nolimitholdem]

Like a lot of us here I've certainly experienced both cultures. And I would observe that a couple of expat nationalities are famous for making training (and flying) absolutely miserable. ;)

Still, I would hope that most of us would be able to survive an unannounced line check. :ok:

Of course. Surely you can agree that in a "just" culture, it's a lot more "survivable". (Don'tcallmeShirley).

[Sqwak7700]

" YOU CAN'T SOLVE CURRENT PROBLEMS WITH THE CURRENT THINKING....

......CURRENT PROBLEMS ARE THE RESULT OF THE CURRENT THINKING "

Albert Einstein.

Exactly what I was thinking. How can you task the same group that trained such bad apples, if you will, with finding and removing such bad apples. If they where capable of doing that, wouldn't they have done it the first time around?

Afraid to say there are many company's, not just airlines, suffering from such poor decision making at the top. It's not much different out here in SE Asia. We haven't sunk to ME3 levels yet, but we are not far off.

Good luck ladies. I hope you can keep all this intimidation at check and concentrate on what is important. Don't forget, at the end of they day, it's just a job and your skills are in high demand.

[Landflap]

If there were a number of "incidents" on line, isn't it correct to address the problem ? Looks like SVP has addressed a worrying trend although, a bit knee-jerk, I agree.But, I have to say, a good review and a pretty damn good effort in order to enhance standards.


Selection is the key. If you need lots of pilots and there aren't many around, entry standards would be lowered. High performing Training Departments would expect enhanced training standards to be implemented because the final line check standard should never be compromised.


Oh bring back the glory days. Very tough selection. Bi-annual Base check. One combined with annual I/R. Line check, once a year. One classroom (really fun times) lasting a week, once a year. Cripes, enough eh ? ON line incidents ? Can't remember any.


Worked for one dreadful outfit where a "surprise" standards check was the norm. Could be on anyone, often no-one and was usually just to ensure that we all knew how to arrive with more fuel than we departed with. Mostly a fun day out and chance to bend the ears of the Management pilot .


A later employer delighted in describing the Training Dept as a "Service" department. There were very few "failures" but quite a lot of refresher training. Worked very well.

[fliion]

Landflap you wrote:

"Selection is the key. If you need lots of pilots and there aren't many around, entry standards would be lowered. High performing Training Departments would expect enhanced training standards to be implemented because the final line check standard should never be compromised."

There is no shortage of pilots - plenty of apps with BA LH DL etc

Nor is there a shortage of capable future trainers.

There is a shortage of mgt willing to pay enough for the expertise.

The new Trainers package - a pitiful case in point.

[donpizmeov]

What Fliion said.

[nakbin330]

This pay-as-you-go trainers package is nothing new.

[BANANASBANANAS]

Mandatory viewing for all on the third floor.

https://youtu.be/lmyZMtPVodo

[Jack330]

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-russia-emirates-airlines/uae-investigating-emirates-a380-serious-incident-in-moscow-idUSKCN1BW1WA

[WB1900]

Where's the problem? You should be able to pass a line check on any of your line flights... If you only pass because you prepare more than for a normal flight, you should not be in the hot seat anyways.


I would say even more
You should pass a TEC Quiz lets say level 2 with a min 70% without studying and an LPC without any prep on any given day - that's the job - that's why we called professionals - or would u go to a doctor who needs to start studying when u enter the hospital?


But this "ACID" test leads to the following:
if your trainer decides that u have missed one radio call or u have done one SOP out of sequence for a reason he does not understand or is unwillig to do so - the particular pilot is done. And we know our nerds. the word "situational awareness" is used in EK to any extend. If a trainer finds nothing u have prescribed any little step verbal he comes with "good stuff, ah ah ah yeah but your situ............" - tonnes of rules which can be single sided brocken and abused for personal disagreement - getting more and more intressting
the other question how many groundings for the "ACID" can flights ops possible take?

[BDD]

Mandatory viewing for all on the third floor.

https://youtu.be/lmyZMtPVodo

WOW!!! I would like to be working for this guy!!!
You are correct, all CEO's should watch this.

BDD

[White Knight]

"Trust and cooperation". Kind of sums up the problem exactly. A very interesting video link thanks!

[White none please]

" Definitely not feeling "" in the Safe Circle"" here...................:sad:

[eternity]

I'm not particularly concerned for these 25% random checks... (I'm not thrilled)....but it most certainly does not have me losing any sleep.

I always fly SOP, and during Annual Line checks there are always some minor points that are picked up....I listen to them, I take them on board and then try to fix those minor errors.

These checkers doing these (25%) random checks are probably not particularly happy about them either, and I expect that they will treat them as any other normal annual line check...a few slight errors they will point out to me, I'll take them on board, read the reports, see mainly 4's with maybe one or two 3's (hopefully a couple 5's!!!).

Then I'll jump into my silver shark or blue German mobile and go home.

The guys checking you are human also....just do a normal flight (my annual line check to KHI is always very normal), and then I'll get some scores (hopefully mainly 4's)...and then it's silver shark time again.

I'm not terribly concerned about this.


Eternity.

[fatbus]

Those that are concerned should be more concerned about themselves rather than the spot check.

[WrldWide]

Those that are concerned should be more concerned about themselves rather than the spot check.

Well said
.

[CaptainChipotle]

If you aren't fit to pass your medical check, call sick.
If you aren't competent to pass a Line Check, study
If you wouldn't pass your LOE, study

Any flight you could do could end up as complicated as any one of these or worse. If you aren't prepared, look inward. It's only your fault.

I agree with fatbus on this one.

It happened to me without any issues.

[nolimitholdem]

It's all fine to lecture about being a pro and being ready and so on. Agreed.

But I'd hope any decent risk manager could recognize that being exposed to jeopardy where it didn't exist previously is a step backward by any standard. Even an Oztranaut can have a bad day, y'know.

And the patronizing tone of some of these "poo poo it's nothing" posts pretty much guarantees at least one of you is gonna eat a ****e sandwich on an unannounced check! :ok:

[Dan_Brown]

Oh the Oztranauts. Do they make mistakes? If they do are they admitted? Heard of rocking horse sh*t?

Those who can do, do. Those who cant...... you know the rest. Dont re invent the wheel.

[ruserious]

PS why is it that so many feel its compulsory to turn up to briefing with a cup of coffee firmly planted in their hands - even if it means they're late!

SS at what point are we ever late to sign on? Personally I need something to kick start my brain at 3am, so I have enough concentration to try and wade through/filter 85 pages of useless paperwork

[falconeasydriver]

Ozzie space programme (https://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2017/09/25/australia-re-enters-space-time-without-burning/)

[The Zohan]

PS why is it that so many feel its compulsory to turn up to briefing with a cup of coffee firmly planted in their hands - even if it means they're late!


Even if they're not late...
It takes a second to find out at the dispatcher if the other guy picked up the briefing package or not. If he did than he's also waiting for you.
I like to go together to Costa and I always pay for both coffees...such a nice guy I am.

tz

[fliion]

Ruserious - not got enough time to make yourself a cup at home if its that important!

I was talking more about the few guys / gals who saunter into the briefing room with a couple of minutes to go until its time to go to the bus, complaining about being picked up late yet still have a coffee in hand, obviously don't have any time for anything at home - dirty shoes, half ironed shirt etc etc! These guys and gals mostly continue with this laissez faire attitude during the flight most likely chair back, speaker on also trying to text their mates whilst you're not looking!!
You know what I mean!
I think these are the ones who are being targeted!

''Tis a target rich environment alright

[Dropp the Pilot]

Seaman:

All of these manifold personal failings are summed up in their inability to discern that Costa is a vile, acrid concoction that bears not even the faintest passing resemblance to coffee.

[Trader]

I don't think most people have issues with line checks - planned or last minute. I couldn't care less! I do my job properly and have never had an issue with a line check.

The TONE in the email, however, is a different issue. No doubt most of us can see things moving back to the way it used to be - checking, no training and so some are, rightly, concerned.

I could accept it and actually embrace it, IF management stepped up and accepted some accountability and responsibility. But nada.

We crashed an airplane and almost crashed a few more.........and still nothing from management. Nothing has changed other than the threat to pilots regarding their performance??!!??!

There is no doubt that pilots are fatigued and burned out. I don't care if they had a layover before the crash or if they had 2 days off before their flight etc etc. The constant 90 hour plus months (my record is 110), small blocks of leave where you still fly your max or close to max monthly schedule, the day night mixes, ULRs followed by 2 days off and a night turn etc. is unsustainable and these incidents that we have experienced recently are the leading edge of the knife.

EVERYTHING in our schedules is fatiguing. The biggest issue with the rosters is that we never have an opportunity to 'recover'. Management simply ignore it. Ask the fleet managers why we are flying 90 plus hours a month and you will hear the response that 'it is not every month - you get 42 day of leave'! That lack of understanding goes right up the chain of command where it becomes a lack of accountability. I am guessing that is why we had the 2 senior VP's in flight ops resign - they see the cliff approaching. (If that happened anywhere else in the world and the civil authority would have stepped in to investigate.)

It is all too simple to point the fingers at pilots. To lay blame but take no responsibility. They KNOW the issues and solutions but this silo driven company is frozen in its ability to make decisions and to implement change as senior managers cannot agree and won't push the agenda because of cost and a lack of knowledge of the fundamental issues at an operational level.

The drive to punish while ignoring training, rostering, fatigue etc will lead to another accident. EK have been lucky (beyond lucky in fact) that Joburg, Melbourne, Dubai and Moscow did not result in hundreds of deaths.

Without a significant and fundamental change in its overall operation EK will have an accident again.

[glofish]

I was talking more about the few guys / gals who saunter into the briefing room with a couple of minutes to go until its time to go to the bus, complaining about being picked up late yet still have a coffee in hand, obviously don't have any time for anything at home - dirty shoes, half ironed shirt etc etc! These guys and gals mostly continue with this laissez faire attitude during the flight most likely chair back, speaker on also trying to text their mates whilst you're not looking!!
You know what I mean!
I think these are the ones who are being targeted!

I agree. But to target them now is a tad late.

They should not have passed assessment
They should not have passed training
They (some) should not have passed upgrade
They (too many) should not have become trainers

In trying to target the problem only now, management fights the symptoms and still refuses to fight the root cause.
And by that way they admits tacitly that the layers mentioned above have more holes than cheese, management itself being the worst.

[emiratesf hucker]

Seaman Staynes and other like minded twats.

Sign on out of Dubai is one hour twenty five minutes prior to departure.

You can stick it up your arse if you think I, or anyone else, owe you, or any other ****, an explanation as to what I, or anyone else, have been doing one hour twenty six minutes prior to departure.

As far as you super heroes who think spot checks are fine, see my suggestion to Seaman Staynes above.

It's about time you lot got your hands off it and realise who the real enemy is.

[fliion]

See - told ya!

[donpizmeov]

Just take both sectors SS.
I believe recruiting has now dropped to even lower requirements than those allowed emiratesf hucker in. Frozen ATPL is the newest rumour. So it would appear that the problem isn't going to be addressed.

[Jack D]

Cadets have a frozen ATPL . I know, I know ! ..as for the 1hr 26 min man .. not much more to be said other than a very bitter mini activist pointing at the wrong target ... sad .

[Airbubba]

I was talking more about the few guys / gals who saunter into the briefing room with a couple of minutes to go until its time to go to the bus, complaining about being picked up late yet still have a coffee in hand, obviously don't have any time for anything at home - dirty shoes, half ironed shirt etc etc! These guys and gals mostly continue with this laissez faire attitude during the flight most likely chair back, speaker on also trying to text their mates whilst you're not looking!!

It's a generational thing I suppose and I've seen it in the U.S. in recent years as well. :rolleyes:

I've seen video games on the iPhone while PF on climbout in Chinese metric RVSM. Texting and doing Instagram selfies while taxiing a widebody. Popping a GoPro out unannounced to record HD video of the cockpit when the throttles come up on a max gross takeoff roll.

And, if you say anything, you are the bad guy for being insensitive to your coworker's needs. ;)

[Eau de Boeing]

And I always thought it was the 7 P's. Prior Planning and Preparation Prevents P*ss Poor Performance.

Prep for me on a training flight involves 5 mins of getting to know the guy/girl first over a coffee. If they ask for a soy crappofrappolappocino then both sectors are mine. Simples!

[nolimitholdem]

Unfortunately, in this job, IF you have a bad day and your FO is also not having the best of days, it usually ends up on the National Geographic Channel.

Oh please. "Usually"?! Any errors are undesirable, but there is a spectrum between small recoverable errors and smoking holes. No need to go full drama queen. My point was only that anyone can make mistakes, and being exposed more often to a punitive culture cannot be seen as a positive move.

As Trader said, it's about the tone of the missive, not just the content. If a checker looks for problems they can always find them. Of course I think for the vast majority random checks will be a non-issue. But the overly-dismissive attitudes of some will inevitably lead to them being knocked off their high horse. Always does.

[maggot]

Oh noes, BOTH sectors??! But whatever you do don't throw me in the briar patch

[olster]

Er, I thought these threads were 'moderated' and profane language was not allowed? Having been referred to as a 't@sser' for no apparent reason by a complete stranger I thought that I would give the ek posts a wide berth. The majority of people I met in ek were courteous and professional and of course were unlikely to be quite so brave face to face. I will say this: whatever the (justifiable) complaints ref Emirates at least they have not reverted to a complete ban as per the 'other' UAE airline. If the post by e/f is representative ( I don't think it is btw) I can only surmise mental illness, drink etc. Not a good advert for the airline.

[WakeTurb_69]

Ruserious - not got enough time to make yourself a cup at home if its that important!

I was talking more about the few guys / gals who saunter into the briefing room with a couple of minutes to go until its time to go to the bus, complaining about being picked up late yet still have a coffee in hand, obviously don't have any time for anything at home - dirty shoes, half ironed shirt etc etc! These guys and gals mostly continue with this laissez faire attitude during the flight most likely chair back, speaker on also trying to text their mates whilst you're not looking!!
You know what I mean!
I think these are the ones who are being targeted!

Duty doesn't start till -85. I'm not required to do anything until then, so i will go and get a coffee. If I make it to the room before -85 then you should consider yourself lucky!

[fliion]

Duty doesn't start till -85. I'm not required to do anything until then, so i will go and get a coffee. If I make it to the room before -85 then you should consider yourself lucky!

Wake - you are indeed correct. I chatted to a fella who decided to pick that fight. Fleet were most courteous and understanding and invited him in for a friendly chat, where he protested righteously his compliance with OMA. They were most appreciative of his interest in OMA compliance - told him gently that the when it came to the rules - his lack of 'off base notification' and 12hr prior in Dubai before to at least two flights in his recent months were additional topics of discussion - not to mention a look back at his travel record that revealed Non acclimation due return to base on pvt travel on more than a few occasions.

Not saying it's right, dont shoot the messenger - but pick your battles.

[OBOGS]

Wake Turb 69, just out of curiosity, which seat are you paid to occupy, if I may ask?

[Dropp the Pilot]

"temporarily occupy", you mean

[SOPS]

At a guess, RHS. Very new, loves shiny jets, Instagram, and possibly may ( or may not) have spikey hair.
And I suggest, he may be in for a big shock on his first visit to the third floor.

However, I could be very wrong.

[You rock]

Let me buy you a amber one. Quote of the year soy crappofrappolacino.
Hit the nail on the head
Hahaha. Love it
So true if you ever needed an example of the current generation

And I always thought it was the 7 P's. Prior Planning and Preparation Prevents P*ss Poor Performance.

Prep for me on a training flight involves 5 mins of getting to know the guy/girl first over a coffee. If they ask for a soy crappofrappolappocino then both sectors are mine. Simples!

[The Zohan]

Duty doesn't start till -85

So if you're a real man and want to send the company your message don't check in before -85, just wait outside.

Showing up 15' after that light turns green is a very bad way to start a duty and, if it wasn't an even worst breach of CRM, I'd take both sectors.

tz

[sealear]

I hope some of you don't talk to each other on the flight deck like that... :eek:

Anyway.... it isn't unusual for anyone to miss or misinterpret a couple of radio calls into some **** hole airport with substandard ATC. I wonder how far they will take this? :uhoh:

[harry the cod]

There's a big difference between missing info because you're not listening out and monitoring effectively to asking ATC to repeat something because you didn't hear clearly or understand the instruction. If you're not sure of the clearance, ask and keep asking until you do.

If anyone marks you down because of the latter, they shouldn't be on the flight deck, let alone in training.

Harry

[adolf hucker]

It's quite notable and strange how a lot of Emirates threads degenerate into a slanging match between captains and FOs. I'm not quite sure why it happens but I think it's symptomatic of an environment where some guys in the LHS start to believe in their own inherent superiority and are disappointed when their FO colleague doesn't appear to live up to the ideal standards which they believe they possess themselves.

There appears to be a certain smug arrogance displayed by some captains towards the junior colleague who just might one day save their ass should they have been wise enough not to alienate them from report time onwards. Whatever you think of that colleague, it's the one resource that's going to accompany you onto the flight deck and you might as well get the best out of them rather than dismiss them for failing to be exactly like you (or how you think you are, more to the point).

Then again, I don't think the company or national culture exactly values the characteristic of humility in those in leadership positions. Bit dangerous in aviation if you ask me and a situation which the whole system of CRM was designed to address. Nowadays, I'm lucky enough to work for an airline with an extremely flat hierarchy both in and out of the flight deck and where I have every confidence that all my colleagues on the flight will do as much to protect my ass as I will theirs. I still don't take it for granted even 4 years after leaving Emirates.

[RK Blue sky]

My personal Acid test is Emirates destroying my health and can we do better somewhere else? The answers to both are most affirmative YES.
Time to get out for our own good.

[fatbus]

Big shiny jet band new first time captain EGO !

[guts]

It's quite notable and strange how a lot of Emirates threads degenerate into a slanging match between captains and FOs. I'm not quite sure why it happens but I think it's symptomatic of an environment where some guys in the LHS start to believe in their own inherent superiority and are disappointed when their FO colleague doesn't appear to live up to the ideal standards which they believe they possess themselves.

There appears to be a certain smug arrogance displayed by some captains towards the junior colleague who just might one day save their ass should they have been wise enough not to alienate them from report time onwards. Whatever you think of that colleague, it's the one resource that's going to accompany you onto the flight deck and you might as well get the best out of them rather than dismiss them for failing to be exactly like you (or how you think you are, more to the point).

Then again, I don't think the company or national culture exactly values the characteristic of humility in those in leadership positions. Bit dangerous in aviation if you ask me and a situation which the whole system of CRM was designed to address. Nowadays, I'm lucky enough to work for an airline with an extremely flat hierarchy both in and out of the flight deck and where I have every confidence that all my colleagues on the flight will do as much to protect my ass as I will theirs. I still don't take it for granted even 4 years after leaving Emirates.

Let me get this straight. You left EK 4 yrs ago and you are still trolling pprune,a tribute to the entertainment value of today's EK management.

[sealear]

I agree with you adolf hucker, some really disgusting comments flying around on here. I don't know who some of these "captains" are who lurk on prune, but I'd love to fly with one just to see how awesome they really are :yuk: