Duke Lifeflight Crash in North Carolina

[SASless]

Four dead....crash occurred approximately Noon....very good weather....no details known.

Location is in Perquimmans County in coastal North Carolina.

[funderrc]

Was one of the original pilots with Duke Life Flight in 1985. This is very sad news and my thoughts are with the crew, their family and the staff at Life Flight.

[SASless]

Just got off the phone with a friend who knew one of the Flight Nurses aboard the aircraft....she had one year to go till retirement.

Very sad news for all those connected to those lost....prayers and condolences to them all!

[henra]

Four dead....crash occurred approximately Noon....very good weather....no details known.


Very unusual.
A modern Twin engine Helicopter crashing violently from Cruise in best flying conditions.
The two Non- burned Rotor blades look strangely undamaged.
Very mysterious. And not the bog standard HEMS crash pattern.

[skadi]

Very unusual.
A modern Twin engine Helicopter crashing violently from Cruise in best flying conditions.
The two Non- burned Rotor blades look strangely undamaged.
Very mysterious. And not the bog standard HEMS crash pattern.

Indeed. But both tailrotorblades are gone...

skadi

[SASless]

Duke helicopter crashes in eastern N.C. leaving four dead | The Chronicle (http://www.dukechronicle.com/article/2017/09/report-duke-helicopter-crashes-in-eastern-n-c-four-dead)

No real news....and per routine....despite Duke grounding the other aircraft....competitors are taking the flights that Duke would have undertaken.

Most news articles are talking of heroes out saving lives when discussing the Crew.

I prefer to think the Mission Statement should start off with "providing a safe, dependable aero-medical transportation service...." and leave off this "saving lives....".

[helonorth]

I prefer to think the Mission Statement should start off with "providing a safe, dependable aero-medical transportation service...." and leave off this "saving lives....".[/QUOTE]

Duke Life Flight mission statement:

The mission of Duke Life Flight is to provide the highest level of care to patients, families and communities served by Duke Health through the integration of clinical care, education, and industry leading safety standards in air and ground transport.

[SASless]

The news media and some of the hospital reps are the ones to whom I refer as they go about euolgizing the folks who were lost.

We have to remind ourselves the fanciest EMS helicopter is just an Ambulance with advanced equipment and the Crew has skill sets that allow them to provide advanced care.....but the dangers of forgetting what the unit mission statement says.....if you fall prey to the "We are Life Savers cheating the Grim Reaper of his harvest " mentality...you will certainly increase your chances of an early demise.

That was not the case here as the crew was going about their stock and trade in good weather in daylight.

It is the media that carries on so!

Perhaps they might stick to quoting the Mission a Statement and forego the emotionalism!




I prefer to think the Mission Statement should start off with "providing a safe, dependable aero-medical transportation service...." and leave off this "saving lives....".

Duke Life Flight mission statement:

The mission of Duke Life Flight is to provide the highest level of care to patients, families and communities served by Duke Health through the integration of clinical care, education, and industry leading safety standards in air and ground transport.[/QUOTE]

[Thomas coupling]

Airbus 145.
Vertical decent - no or little rotor speed.
http://www.dailyadvance.com/image/2017/09/08/300x_b2_bc444444_q90_w4_p2/Medical-Helicopter-Crash-2.jpg

[SASless]

A recent news article.

NTSB takes control of Duke Life Flight helicopter crash investigation | News & Observer (http://www.newsobserver.com/news/local/counties/durham-county/article172797311.html)

[KiwiNedNZ]

Those factors suggest to Jim Crouse, a Raleigh-based aviation lawyer, helicopter pilot and Duke School of Law alumnus, that “some sudden emergency happened in the air” that the crew ultimately couldn’t overcome.

No **** sherlock. Didn't take Einstein to work that one out.

[SASless]

Seems we have an American "Jim" to equal the British "Jim" that BBC drags out so often to comment on Aircraft Accidents.

[212man]

Seems we have an American "Jim" to equal the British "Jim" that BBC drags out so often to comment on Aircraft Accidents.
Not any more - he died a few years ago....

[Cyclic Hotline]

NTSB Preliminary report issued this morning. https://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief.aspx?ev_id=20170908X24535&key=1

[Outwest]

So pretty much a vertical decent with almost zero RRPM.....I can only think of 2 things that would have that result. MGB seizure or collective up with a loss of power. The report saying that the MGB could not be rotated is not comforting.

[mnttech]

The bearing roller pins were worn down to the surface of the bearing race. The end of the turbine shaft aft of the nut exhibited rotational nonuniform damage.
From a visual inspection at the site?

The fixed wing guy has to ask, "Other than lack of power, what happens on a twin engine helicopter if one engine stops?"

[army_av8r]

At a very basic level, a loss of power in a twin will result in the healthy engine being required to supply the total required power based on flight profile and collective pitch. If 60% power was being demanded at the time of failure (per engine). The healthy engine would need to supply a full 120% power to maintain RRPM. If this wasn't possible due to engine electronic logic, or outside conditions, the remaining engine would give all she has, and the rotor would droop due to the lack of required power. The droop is much slower than when you lose all power, but it can still be fatal if your low (enough) and slow, and you react incorrectly to a loss of power. If they were on a medium final approach, 300 feet and lost power, this could easily result in a panicked collective pull to arrest the building rate of descent, and subsequent loss of control.

[[email protected]]

mnntech - the power required in level flight curve starts high for a helo in the hover and then reduces from about 12 kts to somewhere between 50 and 80 kts depending on type, then gradually increases again as forward speed is increased.

In simple terms at very low speeds the rotor is doing all the work of accelerating the air through it - then a phenomenon known as Translational Lift reduces power required as a function of the rotor moving forward through the air (that movement helping to push the air through the rotor).

After the bottom of the curve (50 - 80 kts) any increase in speed needs more power to overcome parasite drag.

So, at low or high speeds, the loss of one engine will be more significant on a twin than around the medium (bucket speed) due to variations in power required Vs power available.

[mnttech]

Thank you both, that helps.
So if I understand the concept, from cruise flight allow the aircraft to slow down to what ever the remaining eng's max cont HP would allow (i.e. into Translational Lift I would assume) and then a run on landing. Somewhat like drift down on a transport fixed wing that loses an engine. Of course, weight, OAT designed power, etc. all can change any of the plan.

[SASless]

As an Army Aviator flying large twin engined Helicopters I learned attention to detail was a necessary trait for success.

In the Duke event, the aircraft was in cruise to a distant hospital landing pad.

The standard flight profile flown would afford adequate single engine performance adequate to maintain flight.

As there is no information to challenge the pilot’s performance....perhaps mentioning a panic reaction as was made does not apply in any way to the cu rent tragedy.

[[email protected]]

mnntech - yes, spot on, you can fly a constant angle approach reducing speed and increasing power until you get close to your max available - we tend to leave a little in hand to cushion the touchdown if required.:ok:

[AnFI]

Was this another gearbox failure in a twin engined helicopter? TBC I guess

If so it's part of the price of engine redundancy and cannot be ignored.
It is worth it IF the saving in catestrophic loss from engine failure is outweighed by all these other catestrophic failures.
That's a big IF :rolleyes:

[Bell_ringer]

Was this another gearbox failure in a twin engined helicopter? TBC I guess

If so it's part of the price of engine redundancy and cannot be ignored.
It is worth it IF the saving in catestrophic loss from engine failure is outweighed by all these other catestrophic failures.
That's a big IF :rolleyes:

Anfi, dude, this is like trying to have a conversation with a budgie..

[[email protected]]

One which is pining for the fjords and has been nailed to its perch to stop it dropping off:E

[ShyTorque]

That same old cracked record has been put on yet again.....

[SASless]

https://i2.imgflip.com/1y2roz.jpg

[LRP]

The aircraft had video/audio recording so someone already knows the cause.

My only observation is from the crash photo...the aircraft appears to have landed skids level, no ground scars, no debris scattered about...just burned in place. Seems unlikely that the xmsn seized and it landed level with no apparent crash damage/debris field. Looks more like it landed, maybe on fire, and the occupants could not/did not egress.

[Al Fentanyl]

SASLESS:

Check out the legendary heroics statements on the Qld website.

Endless repetitions of the 'heros saving lives' horsesh!t and breathless dramatics around absolutely routine inter-hospital transfers and low-acuity scene responses.

Eventually they start believing their own media and everything becomes a 'mission' with crew running to aircraft, focusing on achieving rapid launches rather than careful flight planning and risk assessment.

The Normandy D Day landings were a 'mission'. Aeromedicine is a job.

[helonorth]

SASLESS:

Check out the legendary heroics statements on the Qld website.

Endless repetitions of the 'heros saving lives' horsesh!t and breathless dramatics around absolutely routine inter-hospital transfers and low-acuity scene responses.

Eventually they start believing their own media and everything becomes a 'mission' with crew running to aircraft, focusing on achieving rapid launches rather than careful flight planning and risk assessment.

The Normandy D Day landings were a 'mission'. Aeromedicine is a job.

And this is relevant how?

[SASless]

He refers to the trap that awaits the unwary who cannot grasp the concept that Helicopter EMS flying is all about providing a safe, reliable, system of aeromedical transportation.

Following fatal crashes of EMS Helicopters we far too often see the deceased glorified in the media and by some in the industry as being gallant heroes who offered themselves upon the altar of grand sacrifice while engaged in saving lives at great risk to themselves.

These folks at Duke were taken on a pretty day on a standard medical transport flight thus not particularly applicable to this tragedy.

Why do you ask?

[helonorth]

These folks at Duke were taken on a pretty day on a standard medical transport flight thus not particularly applicable to this tragedy.



That's why.

[SandBlaster214]

Okay, so…, I’m gonna call this my “22 cents” worth – because “two cents” worth would have only taken three or four lines.

I would tend to agree with the above question regarding “relevance”. In this particular event, the fact this was an aeromedical flight looks to be, at most, a casual relationship. Would the outcome of this particular flight have changed had this been (semantics aside) an executive transport flight – let’s say transporting the CEO of Duke University Healthcare System or, an area orientation flight or, any other descriptor other than a bona fide “aeromedical” flight? From my perspective (limited as it may be) it certainly doesn’t appear the pilot was pressured into flying into weather that was anything less than “CAFB”, and I haven’t heard anything about any glaring maintenance discrepancies plaguing this particular aircraft the pilot was pressured into overlooking.

My only interest in this event (and thread) is to eventually learn how/ why a modern, multi-engine helicopter, flying from Point A to Point B suddenly and tragically pancakes into a drainage ditch. Personally, I’m also a bit intrigued because, back in the day, I was fortunate enough to work a BK some when the outfit I was flying for leased one short term. They never bought one, but I enjoyed the hours I got to spend behind the stick and, although it's not up there at the top of my favorites list, I thought I might have enjoyed working one again someday.

Granted, like everyone else, I will patiently wait for the official and final reports to be published however, in the interim, I look at this thread for bits of "real" information devoid any useless diatribe. Over the years, I have come to find “Rotorheads” to be, for the most part, a very diverse group of technically intelligent professionals who have shed much insight on many facets of rotary-wing aviation. (I’ve actually been coming here for years as: “SandBlaster-214”, but the dad-burn name thing quit working and I recently had to re-register without the hyphen). My reality is, I’ve spent 43 years in the seat and believe I can turn jet-fuel into noise with the best of ‘em but, technologically speaking, I don’t have as many dots on my domino as a lot of you folks here, so when it comes to intrinsics and insights, along with the manufacturer(s) and other technical sites, I enjoy the exchanges on Rotorheads, and quite frankly I’ve learned quite a bit in the time spent here.

So…, with all of that said, I think it would be a shame to see this thread digress into one of the old, worn out debates such as;
“Safety – Twin v. Single” or,
“Aeromedical – Necessity, Convenience or Marketing Scheme?” or,
“Aeromedical Pilots – Heros or Reckless Public Nucience?”.

I’m certain there are numerous old threads on those and many other similar and related subjects that could be called up or re-opened – as well as a whole other forum that is overflowing with such horse crap. And that’s coming from an old ranch boy who knows his horse crap.

Thanks for the time and please,

Be Safe!

[AnFI]

SandBlaster214:

"My only interest in this event (and thread) is to eventually learn how/ why a modern, multi-engine helicopter, flying from Point A to Point B suddenly and tragically pancakes into a drainage ditch."

Same here, anyone know yet? Rumours?

[SandBlaster214]

Not stating any new information while blaming everyone but the Pope - almost.
Sorry folks, I don't have my TS yet allowing me to embed links

dig.abclocal.go.com/wtvd/docs/Barlett%20Complaint%20-%20Filed%20Stamped.pdf

dig.abclocal.go.com/wtvd/docs/Harrison%20Complaint%20-%20Filed%20Stamped.pdf

[AnFI]

SB214

Para 58 strongly suggests that it IS an engine failure. It is an inconvenient truth that the theory supporting twin engine use is further undermined by these impossible events. TBC

In Europe the regulator would join that list of plaintiffs because they force people to fly with 2 engines either one of which it appears can result in the loss of all on board. TBC

[[email protected]]

If you read the document, all the claims are concerned with the lack of correct actions when dealing with a single engine failure - not at all that a single engine failure would result in a crash.

Any emergency can be badly handled by a poorly trained or incompetent pilot and the same problem in a single would have been equally disastrous if handled in the same way.

So your point is??????....as if we didn't know:ugh:

[henra]

SB214
In Europe the regulator would join that list of plaintiffs because they force people to fly with 2 engines either one of which it appears can result in the loss of all on board. TBC

What's your point? That a f***ed up emergency handling can lead to a severe accident? Wow. That is News for you? What are you doing as a profession? Hopefully nothing to do with aviation!

[MightyGem]

Clickable link for the document:
http://dig.abclocal.go.com/wtvd/docs/Barlett%20Complaint%20-%20Filed%20Stamped.pdf

[Georg1na]

If I had not had two donks all the years I flew Bell 212/214ST and SK61/76 IFR offshore I woulda been dead a long time ago.












And I would have been at the bottom of some Very tall trees in Borneo and at the bottom of the South Atlantic amongst some other interesting places.


Who is this Anfi? We already have a village idiot so he is not from around here!:sad::sad:

[AnFI]

oleary and georg1na
dead or wet?
2 peeps with 4+ total engine failures, statistically implausible or something systematic about that?
lucky that one of the other downsides of a twin didn't get you, its killed plenty of others. Gearboxes etc etc
twin immunity did not work for the subject of this post
and its perfectly possible that the twin has had some successes, they just have to outweigh the negatives.
what were the success cases you claim exactly? (and factor those by 50% at least)

lay off the shabby insults eh?

[ShyTorque]

Anfi, where do you find a single with a big enough cabin to do the work of a twin (or even a triple)?

Singles have their place, but not universally so.

[SASless]

You know the actual cause of this crash do you AnFi?

Care to tell just how that is as no one else does to include the Investigators.

They uncovered a mechanical issue but to date have not issued a Report!

Your tired line of crap wears awfully thin!

oleary and georg1na
dead or wet?
2 peeps with 4+ total engine failures, statistically implausible or something systematic about that?
lucky that one of the other downsides of a twin didn't get you, its killed plenty of others. Gearboxes etc etc
twin immunity did not work for the subject of this post
and its perfectly possible that the twin has had some successes, they just have to outweigh the negatives.
what were the success cases you claim exactly? (and factor those by 50% at least)

lay off the shabby insults eh?

[Georg1na]

2 peeps with 4+ total engine failures, statistically implausible or something systematic about that?

Love it!

what were the success cases you claim exactly? (and factor those by 50% at least)

Love it even more..................

Quick question session Anfi
1. are you a helicopter pilot?
2. If yes are you commercial or private or military?
3. If private - what do you fly and hours flown.
4. [If commercial same question
5 If military same question.

This is just to get a handle on your experience and to try to find out where you get your views from.

They give us all great pleasure and an innate sense of superiority!!

Happy Christmas - and I am sure you believe in Santa Claus....:ok::ok:

[[email protected]]

Georgina - he has been asked for his experience many times on this forum and always failed to deliver.

However, he is a helicopter pilot but never military nor commercial and I don't think his types extend much beyond the products from the Robinson factory.

He does love himself though and claims to have many thousands of hours.

I think his lack of twin time generally and his lack of exposure to using a helicopter in demanding commercial or military roles goes someway to explaining his constant dripping about twins.....

[AnFI]

Shy true
SAS indications are 1 eninge failed, see links
George no substantive answer or engagement from you xept u love it ?
feel superior if it helps u avoid the issue

[SASless]

Crab,


I think his lack of twin time generally and his lack of exposure to using a helicopter in demanding commercial or military roles goes someway to explaining his constant dripping about twins.....


Sounds like a case of Penis Envy.

[Georg1na]

Sounds like a case of Penis Envy.

Perhaps he/she/it is a girl...............?

I know for absolute sure is that when in the hover picking up people from a merchant ship in the South Atlantic and one engine failed - the other one sure as hell stopped me falling through the masts and rigging into the oggin!

Anyway I wish you all a very Happy Christmas and a wonderful New Year.

[[email protected]]

feel superior if it helps u avoid the issue is that the Big Issue you are selling??:ok:

Happy Christmas all

[SASless]

O,

Do you buy Lottery Tickets?

You sure ought to as you are bound to come up a Winner!

[SASless]

My flying sounds very boring compared to yours.....thank goodness!

There were two periods of time that was not so but those are yarns for telling over lots of Beer. There were a several occasions I thought the Army was going to send me Mum its regards and a Cheque paying off on my Life Insurance.

My civil flying was quite tame in comparison.

One engine failure in a 500D coming off Mount Neuheauser near Tok Junctiion in Alaska....landed with no damage.

One single engine landing in a 212 after shutting one down.

One Tail Rotor Failure while hovering in a Huey....as a Passenger in the left front seat....the other guy needed help in rolling the Throttle then goofed up the landing bending the aft Cross Tube somewhat.

Other than that....just a bunch of chip lights, and the odd Governor failure....all to the low side.

I discount the Near Miss I had with an Elephant... although upon reflection I wonder how I would have explained that to the local Authorities had it not been a a miss.

[Old Farang]

I discount the Near Miss I had with an Elephant..
Got'a watch those elephants, especially the pink buggers! :cool: