Your airline policy on flying with A/T off

[extricate]

Hi,

Just curious. What is your company policy on flying manual with A/T off?

[agg_karan]

We have 4 levels of automation.
Level one is hand flown / raw data/a-thr off.
Level two is handflown / a-thr / FD
level three is A/p / A-Thr / basic modes.
Level four is LNAV/VNAV/AP/ATHR

Pilots must be aware that consistent use and reliance on automation levels 3 and 4 throughout the flight regime will degrade basic flying skills. Therefore, pilots must continue to maintain proficiency by using all levels of automation on a regular basis, keeping in view the following:

§ Workload
§ Weather conditions
§ Fatigue factor
§ Traffic
§ Experience level of Flight Crew
§ In accordance with company policy and procedure.

[safelife]

European large charter carrier: up to the pilot, manual thrust encouraged to at least be trained
European small charter carrier: auto thrust is standard, manual only by captains approval.
China: disconnect it ever and make everyone freak out. Except maybe the most seasoned check airmen.

[CaptainMongo]

Our airline (US based large) encourages hand flying in an appropriate environment. Clear day, not a lot of traffic, smaller airport, turn everything off including FD. I encourage the line pilots I fly with to hand fly. By the third of fourth flight in the course of line training and landings are progressing well, I have the trainee fly the approach and land using manual thrust. Most certainly by the end of line training he or she will have accomplished several manual thrust landings.

[Vessbot]

Easy, we don't have autothrottles in the CRJ.

[extricate]

Interesting, keep the replies coming.

Just felt by flying with A/T off, you are more "one" with the aircraft, airlines should encourage it more given all the talks about maintaining flying proficiency

[B2N2]

Autopilot off means auto-throttle off.
Company ( and Boeing) recommends against mix 'n match on automation.

[macdo]

Ap on - Athr Off is non standard for Airbus. Acceptable for certain failure cases.
Ap off -Athr On or Ap and Athr off is acceptable

[B737C525]

On the Boeing: no restriction on AP off in reasonable circumstances, AT always off with AP off. Some raw data on the line, again, when reasonable.

Business jets: manual thrust on the types we operate.

I brief the manual veto, do others do so?

[skkm]

777, A/T use is "recommended during all phases of flight," including manual flight – but manual thrust is permitted.

[vilas]

Pilot must have the ability to fly approaches with manual thrust and no FD. It is to develop a scan pattern with hands doing the required changes to thrust or flight path. In Airbus this training is imparted in Jet orientation or Entry Level Traning as Airbus calls it.Some rapidly expending airlines may not encourage it on line but they should allow it at least selectively with experienced crew. Otherwise the skill will degrade and a simple visual approach even with auto throttle can end up in a disaster like SFO.

[Check Airman]

Better a cowboy who can fly than a pilot who can't.

[EDDT]

Every approach at Lufthansa is flown and landed with manual thrust (Airbus) or Manual throttle (Boeing).

Raw data is up to pilot's discretion. Of course common sense about environmental conditions is applied for Raw Data / no flight director.

Except in CAT2/3 autoland, a landing with ATHR is not permitted.

The rule of *Manual flight - manual thrust* was introduced after hard landings on A340 fleet in the 90s I think.

[tdracer]

Several years ago, we were having some issues getting the FADEC and the A/T to play nice together. I told the flight test pilot everything worked fine but the A/T, just use manual throttle.
He rather pointedly told me he wasn't going to accept the airplane without a functional A/T, so fix it then get back to him....

[Skyjob]

Though recommended to use AT during TO/CLM on our fleet I prefer this recommendation to be revised so crew learn to use thrust in favour of controlling it with V/S during climb stages, why set a rate and let AT do it for you when hand flying, sort of beats the purpose of hand flying imho...

Previous outfits: all on or all off, except as aiding in the setting of takeoff power initially.

[overstress]

All 747-400 visual landings are flown in manual thrust. LVPs are auto throttle if available.

[Centaurus]

but they should allow it at least selectively with experienced crew

Do you mean you have to be "experienced" before you are allowed to fly without all the automatic goodies? Sounds like a weird policy. I would have thought the accent should be on allowing the inexperienced pilots the opportunity to fly without automatics.

[CaptainMongo]

Below is a link of an article regarding mixed mode flying:

http://aviationsafetyconsultant.com/documents/MixedMode.pdf

On the Bus mixed mode flying does not present the issues a non FBW aircraft can, however I still avoid mixed mode flying - personal preference. Our younger pilots seem to fly mixed mode regularly which is a preference as well.

[underfire]

If I remember correctly, some airlines (such as AirAsia) ONLY allow autopilot/autothrottle below 4000 feet.

Would be curious to know others.

[Vessbot]

Do you mean you have to be "experienced" before you are allowed to fly without all the automatic goodies? Sounds like a weird policy. I would have thought the accent should be on allowing the inexperienced pilots the opportunity to fly without automatics.

My thought exactly. You might be as stunned as I was when I tell you what I was told by one Captain, when I had just over 100 hours at the airline. When I announced that the autopilot's coming off, he made me keep it on. On a clear and calm day, at FAF attitude, on base. Moderately busy traffic. "You don't have enough time in the airplane yet". To do 90 degrees of turning in level flight.

[Tu.114]

On the DH8: compulsory, as none installed. Adjusting the power levers as required becomes second nature after a while on the type, as it should be. The same can be said for retrimming the aircraft about all 3 axis after each and any power change unfortunately. Flying raw data is allowed above certain weather limits and encouraged by many captains.

On the F70/100: use of A/T was standard but not compulsory. The dual channel A/T was releasable under MEL (0/2 required), so practising flying without it once in a while was not the worst of ideas. Attitudes to switching it off varied among captains though.

[Minderbinder]

I have never flown a AP off and A/THR on Approach on either Airbus or Boeing aircraft. The companies I worked for insisted on manual flight, manual thrust and generally encouraged raw data flying. During my first approach into LHR my instructor on the B737 classic had me fly raw data for training purposes. The SID was also flown manually with both AP and A/THR off as it was not an RNAV Overlay departure. The Instructor was nearing retirement and fondly remembered the days when there were no sims, doing engine failures on the B727 during traffic patterns.
Times have changed I suppose.

[Capn Bloggs]

Company ( and Boeing) recommends against mix 'n match on automation.
Depends on the type! The 737 is not the only Boeing aeroplane and others shouldn't be judged by it's apparently appalling pitch/power couple.

[tom775257]

UK airline, A320. Essentially do whatever we want regarding levels of automation or not, just use a bit of common sense.

[WrldWide]

ME Airline 777, company policy is A/T on always unless dictated by QRH. IMHO, very bad policy. In fact no manual flight above 10k agl. Also poor policy. I know, I know, ridiculous. But...what to do?

[vilas]

I have never flown a AP off and A/THR on Approach on either Airbus Airbus FBW ATHR is used even with AP off. Since it maintains 1g stick free there is no appreciable Thrust/weight pitch up. Even in dual hydraulic failure like G+y ATHR is recommended. Speed stable aircraft may be problematic with auto thrust and manual flying.

[pineteam]

I don't undestand what's the problem of flying with AP off and A/THR ON on Airbus for raw data since the A/THR will be in speed mode. Do I miss something here?


Speed stable aircraft may be problematic with auto thrust and manual flying.

Hi Vilas, could you explain please? Thanks.

[Bus Driver Man]

Mandatory A/THR on is the policy here.
This results in pilots losing their flying skills at this big Middle Eastern company.

[divinehover]

We have 4 levels of automation.
Level one is hand flown / raw data/a-thr off.
Level two is handflown / a-thr / FD
level three is A/p / A-Thr / basic modes.
Level four is LNAV/VNAV/AP/ATHR

Pilots must be aware that consistent use and reliance on automation levels 3 and 4 throughout the flight regime will degrade basic flying skills. Therefore, pilots must continue to maintain proficiency by using all levels of automation on a regular basis, keeping in view the following:

§ Workload
§ Weather conditions
§ Fatigue factor
§ Traffic
§ Experience level of Flight Crew
§ In accordance with company policy and procedure.

Nice clear breakdown of the different phases. Good policy to encourage appropriate behavior. I like it.

[vilas]

Pineteam
I am also saying the same thing. There is no problem flying airbus AP off, even FD off and ATHR on. In conventional aircraft pitch up due to thrust variations is pronounced and requires retrimming while Airbus maintains flight path and auto trims. so no issue really. With only AP off ATHR will remain in whatever mode it is but with both FDs off ATHR will automatically go to speed mode.

[AFA]

A/P off & A/THR off approaches no problem at this U.K A340 operator.
Pilots choice.

[Max Angle]

Mandatory A/THR on is the policy here.
This results in pilots losing their flying skills at this big Middle Eastern company. Exactly the same policy and resultant problem here at a large UK based airline.

[Bus Driver Man]

Another problem is that cadets who start their flying career with this policy will never fly with manual thrust.

[Denti]

All combinations allowed here with an A320/A330 operator. Most use manual thrust with manual flight, some do the odd autothrust on approach to keep that trained as well. FD off take off/landing is encouraged as well, if using proper procedures and keeping in mind workload, experience, weather, traffic and so on.

[underfire]

Denti...manual thrust on manual flight.

Other than manual flight (assumed)

When does SOP suggest AT?

AP/FD/AT condition approach combinations?

A/P off & A/THR off approaches no problem at this U.K A340 operator.
Pilots choice.

That would certainly depend on the decorum.

[Dupre]

A320 operator here, ATHR on/off is not mandated in our books, so it's up to the pilot.

Raw data approach is allowed, with certain weather conditions (max 15kt x/w, cloud base above 1500`)

We regularly fly with AP off, FD off, Athr ON, on non precision approaches once visual and close to MDA.