OEI Thrust lever position

[WrldWide]

Would like your thoughts.
When I flew jets with more than 2 engines, after engine shutdown of one or more, the procedure was to then move all thrust levers together. Now flying a hvy twin, 777, the purported method on the Boeing is to leave the retarded lever in the retarded position moving only the operational thrust lever. I find this rather distracting. Maybe has to do with the autothrust servo behaviour?
Thanks for your comments.......I think.

Cheers

[lomapaseo]

I could gave sworn this question was asked and answered a week ago :)

I encountered one in the sim where the idea was to put the lever of a shutdown engine full forward to get it out of the way of any dithering on the other lever during approach.

I simply asked the instructor to give the PF the engine back on final and see what happens. $#^$

[galaxy flyer]

If you read the report on the KDOV C-5 accident, you might believe moving at the throttles is a good idea. In training in the plane, the idled engine's thrittkes was obviously in the idle position. The crew, at one point, had all four in idle, then advanced three thrittkes foreword, misidentifying the inoperative engine. If all throttles were used, they might have avoided the accident.

GF

[stilton]

Why would you want to operate the thrust lever of an engine that's shutdown ?


I can't understand how not being able to operate all thrust levers is distracting.
I think the opposite is the case with one or more shutdown.

You operate the remaining engine(s) with the appropriate
thrust levers, pretty simple.

[AerocatS2A]

Dash 8 checklist allows for the power levers to be operated together once the recalls have been completed. The condition lever is at fuel off and the fuel handle is pulled so no chance of an unexpected light-up. On the other hand the BAe146 checklist leaves the failed engine thrust lever at fuel off. I didn't have a problem with either approach. With the 146 the thrust levers are never all together so you can't forget which ones to push up from idle.

[back to Boeing]

I could gave sworn this question was asked and answered a week ago :)

I encountered one in the sim where the idea was to put the lever of a shutdown engine full forward to get it out of the way of any dithering on the other lever during approach.

I simply asked the instructor to give the PF the engine back on final and see what happens. $#^$

If the engine has been properly secured why would the engine ever come back?

[RAT 5]

There are occasions where using all TL's might help. An engine failure on finals will require an increase in thrust to maintain speed. This will be true if continuing to land or making a GA. At this point the failed engine has not been identified as A.N.C has kicked in, along with some rudder, and you are still concentrating on the 'A' bit.
Once everything is under control, and time allows, you could identify the AWOL engine, retard the lever, secure if necessary, and continue with confidence that the one('s) left under your hand is (are) good to go.

The same could be true during an engine failure on departure if you decide more thrust is required. Advancing them all, assuming no surge, could solve your perception of too low thrust, then when the problem is solved you can go through the identifying procedure.

However, in today's world i doubt many operators will give you such margins of discretion. It's the same regarding landing OEI with rudder trim ON/OFF. IMHO that's a pilot thing not a company thing. But another topic for another time.

[Skyjob]

Keep it at idle, so you remain reminded of the fact this is not normal after you have trimmed the aircraft out, especially so on aircraft where automatic rudder corrections are made so there is even less sensed by the pilot of the situation he finds himself in as one clue (rudder) is taken over by automatics

[vilas]

I don't know which jet they keep forward. Boeings and airbuses don't.

[tdracer]

The 777 A/T allows you to set a throttle at idle, and 'fly' the aircraft with the other engine with the A/T. This was done in part to allow a sick engine to be operated at idle (still providing electric, bleed, and hydraulic) while still permitting use of the Autothrottle. It was considered to be a desirable feature for ETOPS.

[LimaFoxTango]

Dash 8 checklist allows for the power levers to be operated together once the recalls have been completed. The condition lever is at fuel off and the fuel handle is pulled so no chance of an unexpected light-up. On the other hand the BAe146 checklist leaves the failed engine thrust lever at fuel off. I didn't have a problem with either approach. With the 146 the thrust levers are never all together so you can't forget which ones to push up from idle.

I suspect the gear horn had something to do with that on the Dash 8.

But anyway, operating the two throttles together is the ergonomic thing to do. Operating one is very awkward. Keep in mind that most aircraft has the GA button on the outer side of the throttle where the thumb would fall. If the engine fails on the side of the PF, pressing the opposite GA button becomes awkward.

[Rick777]

I never heard of moving the inop throttle with an engine out. There are a lot of different ways of doing things though. On the KC-135R we put symmetrical throttles at idle and just flew with 2 for the approach with an engine out. Never had to practice 3 engine approaches that way.

[vilas]

Besides in Airbus FBW thrust levers are also mode selectors so putting forward is out of question.

[safelife]

Moving the failed engines levers together with the live one(s) is often done to avoid too low gear warnings which are often based on TL angles.

[H Peacock]

Leaving the OEI throttle at Idle is all very well until (if) you also bring the others back to Idle. Have a look at the Dover C5 mishap simulation shown below!


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GeEMiW1vMvU

[westhawk]

I would think it might be dependent on the airplane type. Moving them all together to avoid confusion seems sensible enough, but on some types this may introduce other opportunities for confusion. I would start by following the established procedure for the type, then if interested enough, research all the systems affected by T/L position to deduce the logic behind the SOP. The software and microcircuitry behind the curtain affecting FADEC and FBW interface may not be as obvious as it is with classical electric interface. If Learjet says leave the T/L of the failed engine in cutoff, in cutoff it stays!* I don't know what Airbus says to do on a 340 or a 380, but if I flew one I would...

*As far as I could deduce from the system schematics, placing the failed engine T/L in cutoff on the 60 causes the FADEC to send messages on the digital data bus to data bus subscribers (various airframe and avionics systems) which enables several operating mode changes to occur in other systems. However it is not known to me whether moving the shut down engine's T/L after engine shutdown would have any effect on those mode changes or not.

How about making a BIG RED flag to be placed upon on the inoperative engine T/L in the event of shutdown required equipment? ;)