2 person Fightdeck rule

[PorridgeStirrer]

Anyone hear of a recent incident? Luanda bound apparently.

[777-200LR]

Lusaka/Harare

[Odins Raven]

If you know the route, you know the gossip. Now spill the beans 😎

[donpizmeov]

Be careful with this one. Two conflicting rumours around. The truth will come out. Best wait till then I reckon.

[BigGeordie]

Two rumours! Even better! Let's have them both then.

[lospilotos]

Perhaps it's time for a 3 person flight deck rule, or 4, or 5, or 6, or wait... Perhaps just trust the 2 highly trained and scrutinized persons you put there in the first place?

[harry the cod]

Agree with Don.

If you're desperate to discuss this incident, or rumour, head off to the dedicated Emirates forum or save it for your RTGS. Putting this out on a public forum is hardly sensible given the content, IMO.

Harry

[Airmann]

Or how about better care is taken of pilots and cabin crew to stop them going off the deep end in the first place.

And better monitoring of mental health. Why just a physical check once a year (or twice depending on age). Why not a mental check? Good body bad brain may lead to bad results.

Or are companies too scared that far too many of their crew wouldn't be class 1 mentally fit?

[Emma Royds]

It would appear that the far more sinister version of events that is spreading rapidly, is untrue based on information I heard from people who know the Purser and the Captain involved.

[PositiveRate876]

Let's hope this incident results in cancellation of the current flight deck policy.

[A320ECAM]

Guys, what on Earth has happened? The two persons flight deck policy is supposed to be a safe procedure!

BA, on the other hand, do not have this policy and therefore I would expect something serious to have happened...

[777-200LR]

The conflicting rumors may be as a result of some mentioning this happened on a flight to LAD. Those with an investigative eye will see it was on the way to LUN

[pfvspnf]

Wtf happened ?

[JAARule]

Be careful with this one.

It is sadly indicative of the rule of fear and paranoia with which the airline is governed that to speak of a rumour you couldn't help but hear is to risk unmentionable punishment.

[donpizmeov]

Not what I meant JAA. There are two rumours. One exciting, one sad. Best we wait and find out what happened before jumping to decisions.

[g109]

So what exactly happened? whats the point of discussing things when we don't know what happened

[LivingINtheDream]

Spot on JAA. Unfortunately the usual protagonists (trolls) are quick to yank the chain and keep the minions on the party line. Sad indeed.

[WakeTurb_69]

Is it possible that a sudden decrease in "Testosterone supplements" could have adverse effects on ones mental well being as much as the physical? I for one am expecting to see some serious withdrawal symptoms amongst certain crew members.

[pilotguy1222]

Interesting that as I checked for some alt/ias info on EK713 on a popular flight tracker, the flight does not exist on the 21st.
Both legs the day before, both legs the day after.

[Consol]

A bit of a pointless debate here with just hints. If it's just gossip then let it go away. If an event occoured that could inform other professionals of the risks involved with this policy and the circumstances so we can learn from it and try and make our operations safer, then tell a bit more. Certainly do not embarrass innocent participants or give away sensitive security information.

[KippaLippa]

Is this all about that flight where a purser did the thing nobody knows about while being there where we cannot know with the other guy, allegedly flight crew, who in turn did or perhaps did not what we don't know while we all thought he should have definitely done some other unspeakable thing?
am I right?

[luvly jubbly]

am I right?

I cant say

[glofish]

Yeah, unfortunately i can't say anything either.

I am too important and too far up the knowing chain to be able and allowed to disclose any important information. I really know the whole tru ... ehh rumour and i am so well informed, disclosure would harm the whole industry, it can only be burdened by my holy experience and position.

Sorry folks, it's not for the plebs. Keep on rowing and worshipping the holy whatever.

[Jack330]

I just heard about the knockout... I mean WTF

[5star]

the 2man cockpit rule is not only a joke but has always been a huge safety risk. Kudos to BA for never applying this BS.

[fatbus]

Is it the airlines or regulators that imposed this stupid rule?

[galaxy flyer]

Fatbus,

Have you heard of the German Wings suicide flight? Do you not think having someone to open the door a good idea?

GF

[cerbus]

Is it true the captain restrained the purser while they were in the cockpit and had a little fun?
Sounds like a good time and the Mile High Club box was checked!

[pfvspnf]

Reminds me of the Saudi incident , captain and purser punching each other , would really like more details on this one .

[JAYTO]

This needs to be discussed. Not brushed under a carpet and hope it goes away.

I for one do not feel at all comfortable sitting in my cockpit with someone behind me. Especially when I am meant to be facing forward minding the ship.
Now if said person sitting behind me decides it's time to meet his maker. Things could get really bad really quick.

J.

[natops]

@galaxy flyer: No

[pilotguy1222]

Except is was not the captain and purser. It was the FO and the purser was a male.

[A320ECAM]

Excuse me you expats.

The two-person flight deck policy is a cracking idea. It stops mentally ill morons ruining our profession even more by parking the aircraft full of innocent pax on the side of a mountain on purpose. If you fail to realise this, then maybe you shouldn't be in the flight deck in the first place.

[BigGeordie]

The mentally ill morons we are worried about aren't pilots.

[5star]

320ecam
your post proves to all the 'expats' over here that you have no clue what you are talking about....

it is the weakest link in aviation security...

[A320ECAM]

320ecam
your post proves to all the 'expats' over here that you have no clue what you are talking about....

it is the weakest link in aviation security...

How is it the weakest link? What are the chances of a pilot-suicide event when there is another crew member in the flight deck, even if it is CC?

And BigGeordie, there are some pilots out there with mental issues. Surely you won't know because it is hard to see mental illness (obviously). The stresses from the industry can and are having massive impacts on pilots and their mental/emotional/psychological health and if you cannot see this, then I recommend a trip to your local opticians.

[pilotguy1222]

How is it the weakest link? What are the chances of a pilot-suicide event when there is another crew member in the flight deck, even if it is CC?.

A job as a CC is not difficult to get, and takes no preparation.
A commercial airline pilot job takes a lot of money and a lot of time to get, IF you can get it. Who's to say this psycho can fly in the first place. It is also a numbers game. Chances of a looney CC or pilot? I know where to place that bet.

99.9% of the CC aren't going to be able to stop anything anyway, and after this incident, there won't be any male cc in the flight deck when I step out.

[777-200LR]

and after this incident, there won't be any male cc in the flight deck when I step out.

Thats exactly the way I see it. You're the commander, and will have to make the judgement call, if they don't like it or feel 'uncomfortable', let them report it

[Talparc]

After Hassans eMail I believe the clock on the 2 person flightdeck rule is ticking

[BigGeordie]

What we need is a three person rule. No cabin crew on the flight deck unless both pilots are there.

[A320ECAM]

A job as a CC is not difficult to get, and takes no preparation.
A commercial airline pilot job takes a lot of money and a lot of time to get, IF you can get it. Who's to say this psycho can fly in the first place. It is also a numbers game. Chances of a looney CC or pilot? I know where to place that bet.

99.9% of the CC aren't going to be able to stop anything anyway, and after this incident, there won't be any male cc in the flight deck when I step out.

I don't know the details of what happened but the only way of putting this issue to bed once and for all is that the flight deck is given it's very own lav which is separate and isolated from the cabin. Until then, two persons must always be in the flight deck because the pilot may commit suicide. There have been many pilot suicides in recent years, especially MH370 and Germanwings. But even before that there have been many cases! So the only solution... have another body in the flight deck when one of the pilots leaves. That person has to sit in the observer seat (or stand if no observer seat is installed).

[jack11111]

Quote: "There have been many pilot suicides in recent years, especially MH370 and Germanwings."


When did MH370 get solved as a suicide?

[A320ECAM]

Quote: "There have been many pilot suicides in recent years, especially MH370 and Germanwings."


When did MH370 get solved as a suicide?

When did you lose your common sense?
Read the facts and you'll soon be able to work it out.

And by the way guys, the Saudia Tristar accident was the result of having a dyslexic flight engineer onboard (it was cited as one of the leading causes). Read the report and then get back to me, especially you Loose (that's if you can read the report within the next decade).

[wiggy]

For info, from the Germanwings accident report....

...... some of the previous events listed in (previously in the report , "ed" ) show that even with two persons in the cockpit (i.e. two pilots), a suicide remains possible. This “2-person in the cockpit” rule cannot fully mitigate the risk of suicide, although it is likely to make it more difficult. In addition, this rule may introduce new security risks by allowing an additional person inside the flight deck. Consequently, the BEA acknowledges the potential safety benefits of the “2-person in the cockpit” rule, although the security risks and training needs for the staff performing the tasks of that second person have to be carefully assessed.

(My emphasis).

[nolimitholdem]

Canadian regulators also removed the rule in June.

Rule requiring airlines to keep 2 crew in cockpit at all times lifted by Transport Canada (http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/transport-canada-two-flight-crew-cockpit-1.4164592)

[Trader]

A320ECAM - lose the attitude and the "I'm smarter than you" stance!

The simple fact is that if a pilot is going to commit suicide there is nothing any cabin crew can do to stop him. The CC could have a gun and the pilot could still disconnect with his thumb and turn the column completely left/right is a matter of about 3 seconds. The airplane is unrecoverable. The said CC - completely useless!

[fliion]

When did you lose your common sense?
Read the facts and you'll soon be able to work it out.

And by the way guys, the Saudia Tristar accident was the result of having a dyslexic flight engineer onboard (it was cited as one of the leading causes). Read the report and then get back to me, especially you Loose (that's if you can read the report within the next decade).

The industry hasn't worked it out - tell us the facts and how you know it was suicide.

[jack schidt]

C C in the cockpit to save the day, my thoughts...

With only 1 pilot in the cockpit and a C C member to save the day, what hope would they have if the remaining pilot at the controls of an airbus did the following. Over a 10s period turn off the primary and secondary flight controls and then the engine masters. At this point the C C gets startled by events and wouldn't know what to do while the pilot decides to get out of the seat to deadbolt the door while attacking the C C member. All would be lost, it really is a pointless exercise.

I would prefer to trust the other pilot being left in the seat alone rather than a brand new C C member with no psychometric evaluation or particular in depth personal or professional history being known.

How about 2 pilots in the cockpit and while on controlled rest the "on duty" pilot choses to Jettison fuel while over the ocean or polar route.

To me, the safest answer would be to ensure that there is a temporary way to disarm the door locking mechanism. When there is only 1 pilot in the cockpit the deadbolt would be powered open and the door access gained . Aircraft with coded door access would mean pilots would need to have a personal code created for them "alone" should they ever need to use it as above. Could a potential terrorist get the code off you? Well when you go out to the bathroom, would you want to open the door for them and suffer the same fate either way with them at the controls?

Perhaps in the thread title incident it was a case where the pilot is at the controls and the C C member becomes incapacitated blocking the door. Now you will have no one at the controls while the pilot attends to them and removes them from the blocked door area. No pilot at the controls caused by a worthless policy which is described above as pointless.

Just a few thoughts there, not the best solutions but better than the current policy.

Enjoy your week all

Jack

[Plane_Sailing]

The logic of the situation is simple. A pilot can fatally crash the plane if there is one person , 2 people or 5 people in the flight deck. Consider the possibility of the pilot monitoring recovering if for example the PF shoves the control wheel forward with full strength at 100 ft agl. Big fat zero!!
There are many other ways. One pilot could get up and grab the axe and bash the other to blazes then do what he likes. The point is , that's an accepted risk. Or simple pull the fire handles over the North Pole! No way to stop it.
Now we introduce a new risk in the form of a cabin crew! They may be many things including a radicalised religious freak or just a troubled young girl jilted by too many pilots out for revenge. Doesn't matter, they are a risk even if they are just a pumped up purser who has a personality clash with an aggressive captain.
I think whoever said there should be 2 pilots in the cockpit if a cc is to be present is spot on.

[KippaLippa]

I apologise for asking A320ecam, I mean no offense....

are you an airline pilot?
are you a pilot?

that would help us a lot understanding your posts

regards

[wiggy]

So if there was another crew member in the flight deck, then they would have been able to stop that moron from parking the Airbus on the side of the Alps..


No, they aren't saying it would have stopped it, they are saying it might have stopped it.

The report also points out however that introducing another crew member onto the flight deck may increase the risk of causing another incident or accident (FWIW one of the BEA spokesmen also said the same and provided a bit more detail during a Press conference when the report was released). In short by insisting on a "two person" rule to try and solve problem A (in this case pilot suicide) you may be increasing the risk of loss of life in the future caused by B, C D, etc happening ....I'm not going to spell out all the B, C or D's in plain language here but one look round your airline might give you some some ideas.

The level of extra risk is considered to vary from airline to airline which is why the EASA recommendations allow airlines to carry out their own risk assesment before deciding whether to implement a two pilot rule, or an EASA approved equivalent measure which is more appropriate to their operation.

[GoreTex]

so is it true that there was a fight in the cockpit between purser and flight crew? I heard different stories

[Trader]

If the industry was truly concerned and if the issue was as big as some make it out to be then the solution would be to have 3 pilots on ALL flights. One to take the seat of the guy peeing! But that would be expensive.

CC in the flight deck is nothing more than optics for public consumption.

If the story at EK is true it will illustrate (to the world) just how silly the policy is.

[fliion]

so is it true that there was a fight in the cockpit between purser and flight crew? I heard different stories

No - there was no fight.

[Talparc]

more like a love fight

[gearlever]

more like a love fight

How sweet...... :ouch:

[recceguy]

more like a love fight

A love fight using fists ? :O

More seriously, when alone with a male CC in the cockpit, I always :

- unlock my belt, so If being attacked, I can defend myself better. Simple and unnoticable.
- prepare myself mentally to retaliate using elbows, striking backwards towards the face. Simple and efficient.

So much for the good atmosphere.

[my salami]

A love fight using fists ? :O

More seriously, when alone with a male CC in the cockpit, I always :

- unlock my belt, so If being attacked, I can defend myself better. Simple and unnoticable.
- prepare myself mentally to retaliate using elbows, striking backwards towards the face. Simple and efficient.

So much for the good atmosphere.

Mate... you seriously need to see a shrink..

MS

[GoreTex]

I find it pretty stupid that a supernumerary crew with a month long history in EK has to sit on a jump seat for takeoff and landing but a pilot on his off days is not allowed, its to easy for some lunatic get hired and then do something crazy, its just a matter of time.

[eternity]

recceguy

If you are alone in the cockpit I would not recommend unlatching your seatbelt.
An aircraft (that you're strapped to) and the naughty man insn't strapped to...would provide you with a multitude of options to help avoid him reigning blows down upon you.

Additionally your Parker Pen (or if a Captain) your Mont Blanc pen can prove to be very useful if you attempt to direct towards the eyes, if at all possible.

If (and this is far more probable), we inadvertently fly into some particularly nasty CAT - you (the pilot who is supposed to be f*#king flying the thing is now also face planting the overheard panel.

Don't undo your seatbelt mate.

Eternity.

[Luke SkyToddler]

A male cabin crew was arrested a few years ago at a UK based airline I worked for. Had been viewing Al-Qaeda material on the 'net and was picked up by MI6.

Big strong guy, looked like a real gym rat, brought us coffee in the cruise a few times, no harm was done but you've got to wonder. If he had a well executed plan then he could well bring the plane down even with two pilots in the flight deck. Where does it end?

[simmple]

65 posts and still nothing about what actually happened!

[motley flight crue]

ECAM, your an idiot. Go away

[fliion]

The irony.

Back on topic: have Emirates had a successful go-around since Flight 521?

I believe you can apply again in 12 mos

[SOPS]

I believe this person is a troll, or a complete idiot.

[Big Enos Burdette]

I believe this person is a troll, or a complete idiot.

Probably both.

[Kobus Dune]

An aircraft (that you're strapped to) and the naughty man insn't strapped to...would provide you with a multitude of options to help avoid him reigning blows down upon you.

Additionally your Parker Pen (or if a Captain) your Mont Blanc pen can prove to be very useful if you attempt to direct towards the eyes, if at all possible.


Excellent , and full of useful ideas. As for myself, I will keep them in mind.

The only problem would be that the involved CC might have a pen, too.

So it seems that quite of us are already designing their own way of fighting back the CC in the cockpit. So great.

[Bus Driver Man]

I believe this person is a troll, or a complete idiot.
The solution (http://www.pprune.org/profile.php?do=addlist&userlist=ignore&u=461957)

[Odins Raven]

A male cabin crew was arrested a few years ago at a UK based airline I worked for. Had been viewing Al-Qaeda material on the 'net and was picked up by MI6.

Big strong guy, looked like a real gym rat, brought us coffee in the cruise a few times, no harm was done but you've got to wonder. If he had a well executed plan then he could well bring the plane down even with two pilots in the flight deck. Where does it end?

It always amazes me how they can catch a guy looking at stuff on the internet, yet somehow they can't or won't block the web address to that material. That's like offering free beer on the highway and complaining when someone gets caught DUI.

[Flyboy_SG]

I don't know the details of what happened but the only way of putting this issue to bed once and for all is that the flight deck is given it's very own lav which is separate and isolated from the cabin. Until then, two persons must always be in the flight deck because the pilot may commit suicide. There have been many pilot suicides in recent years, especially MH370 and Germanwings. But even before that there have been many cases! So the only solution... have another body in the flight deck when one of the pilots leaves. That person has to sit in the observer seat (or stand if no observer seat is installed).


Get your facts straight buddy. Looks like you have a little or no experience in aviation.


MH370 is still a mystery, Pilot suicide is one of the many theories of what could have happened. No assumptions in aviation, because assumption are the mother
Of all the f$&@ups. A CC in German wings could have never saved the plane, if she/he was 320 rated. You would have read about AF447 incident.



Primarily two person cockpit rule was made for pilot incapacitation, not suicide.
I had this rule in all the airlines I had worked/working for.

And it's lose not loose. Do you know the difference ??

[Flyboy_SG]

I believe you can apply again in 12 mos

You think he is qualified to apply ? Looks like he has 10s of Cessna hrs under his belt and not even a CPL.

[Officer Kite]

You think he is qualified to apply ? Looks like he has 10s of Cessna hrs under his belt and not even a CPL.
Well I'm applying not long after graduation, the average demographic of the EK pilot appears to be leaning towards the younger generation. Although, having said that, I'm not entirely convinced by the company or lifestyle. I shall see once I'm fully done with training and have joined my sponsor airline what my next move shall be. Emirates might still take some convincing and definitely a better offer than what they currently have for d/e FOs.

[fliion]

Officer Kite - and what has your contribution to do with the thread "2 person flight deck rule?" Wrong thread? As a tip (as you are close to graduation) when it comes to your exams read the question / topic!

As to the thread, the 2 person rule was simply to do with making sure the other pilot could get back in after leaving flight deck i.e. not denied access.

There are lots of scenarios to do with this which are really best not discussed in public, better to think about it yourself or talk about it with your buddies in the bar.

As to what happened recently - rumour of course - rearrange the following words - commotion, fit, restraint, seizure. Actually if what i heard is correct quite sad! So lets wait and see.
Also as a totally unrelated topic and as its a rumour network did the steroid testing email come out before or after this happened?


That whatsapp rumor msg started doing the rounds around the 20th, the steroids missive came out 10th.

You might be on to something there

[pfvspnf]

Officer kite , really don't want another beef with you

Zero contribution to the thread ,

Off topic but when did an MPL , "graduate from anything ?"

If this is the sort of quality that EK is getting then slow clap it is

[sealear]

Well I'm applying not long after graduation, the average demographic of the EK pilot appears to be leaning towards the younger generation. Although, having said that, I'm not entirely convinced by the company or lifestyle. I shall see once I'm fully done with training and have joined my sponsor airline what my next move shall be. Emirates might still take some convincing and definitely a better offer than what they currently have for d/e FOs.

Calm down, the failure rate here for interviews is really high. You don't "decide" whether or not to work for EK before the interview, you do the interview first THEN make that decision IF they offer you a job. The entry requirements may have completely collapsed but that doesn't mean they take just anyone. :rolleyes:

No offence, but why don't you actually go out and get some real flying hours first before you deem EK unworthy of your services :yuk:

[Officer Kite]

Officer kite , really don't want another beef with you

Zero contribution to the thread ,

Off topic but when did an MPL , "graduate from anything ?"

If this is the sort of quality that EK is getting then slow clap it is

With the greatest of respect, sir, who are you? We had beef? I tend to fall asleep after a good steak so that probably explains it. Joking aside though, I'm sorry but I don't have any recollection of any discussion with you :rolleyes:

As for the MPL, I am not an MPL cadet no, I'm ATPL.

And sealer, I hear you and point taken.

Anyway, regarding the thread, what's to say a cabin crew member and a pilot who both know each other and have the same evil intent don't simply plan to get on the same flight together and end up both in the cockpit together at some stage? Are there protections against this? It's a bloody obvious gap in the system.

[tech log]

Are there protections against this? It's a bloody obvious gap in the system.


Is it really?

I'm sure the security services are scrambling to secure that glaring own goal. Good thing a kid in ATPL Groundschool, who took 8 attempts to get into flight school, caught it in time.

[Officer Kite]

Is it really?

I'm sure the security services are scrambling to secure that glaring own goal. Good thing a kid in ATPL Groundschool, who took 8 attempts to get into flight school, caught it in time.

except that didn't really happen did it? i was offered a place to "get into flight school" first time, but i wanted to get onto a programme with a job attached and insisted on it every time, so said no. Otherwise i would have been a "wings cadet" like you quite some time ago. Thankfully I thought wiser than throwing away tonnes of cash to end up back home scratching my ass whilst the "graduate services team" held me by my throat and end up like a puppet trying to impress them to try and get just an interview. Do try and be more accurate next time, and I hope you are more accurate in your exams considering you too are in flight school, I suggest you go and do some study rather than spend your time stalking my history, and good luck job hunting :)

[tech log]

i was offered a place to "get into flight school" first time, but i wanted to get onto a programme with a job attached and insisted on it every time, so said no.

Oh dear.

CTC Qatar - final stage (rejected twice)
Aer Lingus - final stage (rejected twice)
CityJet - Final stage rejected
easyJet (rejected once at final interview, initially accepted second time but then rejected again with the personality test fiasco at OAA)



considering you too are in flight school

Am I really. Someone had better tell Aviation House LGW, they've printed A320/LV on my license by mistake.

[Officer Kite]

Didn't get on the airline programmes, however offered to do the whitetail course which is what you did ...i.e. "get into flight school", same happened with oxford and fte ... i refused to train unless an airline was involved but each time offered to do the school's own integrated course. And considering I was 18/19 for all the attempts you have listed, and made the final 50 of over 3,000 applicants to the aer lingus programme at 19, I have got no shame in admitting it. And the post you have quoted, was actually made to try and encourage someone else that was rejected from a couple of programmes and everyone else that may read it, to make them realise that we can all not pass selections for various reasons (interview techniques was my issue) but if they really want it and keep aiming to improve, they can get there. Have you seriously nothing better to do with your time? How sad!

[Officer Kite]

Oh ******* wrap it up you two. Can we get back on topic and if there is a need for member waving take it into PM's.

I concur, I found the deviation from the topic rather annoying tbh but he wanted to question my background so had to answer.

Now 2 posts ago I said what's to say a cabin crew member and a pilot who both know each other and have the same evil intent don't simply plan to get on the same flight together and end up both in the cockpit together at some stage? Are there protections against this? It's a bloody obvious gap in the system.

I asked this as a genuine question, regarding the 2 person flight deck rule, are there protections against this happening or ?

[Airmann]

I asked this as a genuine question, regarding the 2 person flight deck rule, are there protections against this happening or ?

Yea it's called professionalism.

[Trader]

I asked this as a genuine question, regarding the 2 person flight deck rule, are there protections against this happening or ?

That is the ENTIRE point - there is NO protection if a pilot has ill intent. Period...end of story!

You can sit a person behind a pilot while the other is out of the flight deck and they will have no ability to stop anything. The pilot, with the flick of his wrist can have the aircraft inverted before anyone can interfere. Hell, you could have a gun pointed at his head and there would still be enough time to get the aircraft upside down.

By adding cabin crew, who have no training and very likely less security vetting, you in fact increase the threat. The entire policy was nothing more than optics to keep the public happy. If it was truly a serious concern then ALL cockpits would become 3 pilot workplaces. But that's expensive and there is no will to spend that kind of money. Even then it would be no guarantee.

[White Knight]

If it was truly a serious concern then ALL cockpits would become 3 pilot workplaces. But that's expensive and there is no will to spend that kind of money. Even then it would be no guarantee.

As we saw with a Japan Airlines DC-8 many many years ago! But the youngsters won't know about that one I imagine!

[Old King Coal]

... and / or with what happened aboard FedEx 705 (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Express_Flight_705)

[fliion]

No guarantee - even with three against one - the FX705 crew never flew commercially again.

Officer Kite was still in his pampers then.

[tdracer]

What Trader said...
If the pilot flying is intent on crashing and isn't a total idiot, it's pretty close to impossible to stop it. They simply need to pick a time and place when there simply isn't enough time to intervene prior to impact. There are at least two of those times every flight...

[highlight]

As to what happened recently - rumour of course - rearrange the following words - commotion, fit, restraint, seizure. Actually if what i heard is correct quite sad! So lets wait and see.

As you said, SS, rumor of course and many stories flying around - no pun intended. However, I have a hard time believing this angle - how is a seizure considered "inappropriate behavior by one of cabin crew?" These were the words of our esteemed SVP. If someone had a seizure, I'm thinking they'd be convulsing on the ground, semi-unconscious or whatnot... not behaving inappropriately. If anyone could chime in and enlighten me, then I stand corrected.

Like you said, we'll have to wait and see but I doubt we'll know the real details from the company.

[harry the cod]

Two angles here.

Firstly, German Wings example where depression/mental illness is the causal factor in crashing. In this case, having another person on the flight deck is prudent and our policy works. Very few people take their own lives with others around. An act often done in private although there are exceptions such as those that throw themselves in front of trains or off bridges onto cars. The second example being alluded to is the terrorist. As already stated, nobody, even a qualified pilot, would be in a position to intervene if the timing was correct. Even a four man ULR crew could do little.

This is probably why authorities are taking differing views, given the differing threats faced by individual airlines. As a high profile brand and prolific sponsor of Western sports, EK is hardly the model Muslim airline. Combine our location in the highly volatile ME region with our propensity to employer a large percentage of Arabic males, and it's clear that the policy we have is probably not the best.

Harry

[jack schidt]

Rather disrespectful of some posters to hijack this thread and become keyboard warriors off the topic. Put simply, there are Pilots here of all ages, skill and knowledge levels including high professional standards. With regard to ones CRM training; Courtesy, Respect and Manners (high standards), please stay on topic because absolutely no one else cares about your personal cases or adolescent bickering.

Regarding the thread issue, if you are in the company then you are in the "know" or you just aren't asking the right people. Most flights will offer crew with at least 80% of the right answers as to what happened.

Happy Eid All

J

[Captain_Bolt]

If the pilot flying is intent on crashing and isn't a total idiot, it's pretty close to impossible to stop it. They simply need to pick a time and place when there simply isn't enough time to intervene prior to impact. There are at least two of those times every flight...


Just a thought - what about automated flight systems that take over if a deviation from normal/safe is detected e.g. pointing the aircraft at a mountain range with seconds to spare ?

[glofish]

what about automated flight systems that take over if a deviation from normal/safe is detected

HAL reinvented ....! Give me a break.

If you want to mitigate the risk of deliberate suicide in a cockpit, you should limit the number of people in it and definitely not add less vetted individuals to reduce the supposed risk coming from much more controlled ones.

It has been said before, the only logical reason to have two inside, would be to lessen the risk of a possible incapacitation, but with the entry logic of today's locked cockpits, even this eventuality is covered by 30 seconds.

The policy today has simply increased the risk of an incident!

But it covers some deplorable armchair managers who only care about their backside and not about safety.

[Toledo]

[QUOTE=Trader;9877033]That is the ENTIRE point - there is NO protection if a pilot has ill intent. Period...end of story!

What a nasty combination. Pilot with ill intent & a period.
End of story is the only outcome!

[arketip]

Your fellow crew member does decide to roll it inverted in the cruise before you get the chance to knock him out with your fire axe.

Why would he do it in cruise?

[nolimitholdem]

Can't we go back to a couple of wannabe pilots arguing over which one's been rejected from more flight training programs? Hilarious! And far more entertaining.


http://www.reshareit.com/wp-content/uploads/how-dare-you-wear-it.gif


If you watch the new EasyJet infomercial, it would seem the only requirement to become a pilot in the UK now is to get your mum to take a second mortgage to come up with £120,000...so how does one get rejected, anyway?

[jugofpropwash]

It raises a slightly off topic but still relevant question actually.
Your fellow crew member does decide to roll it inverted in the cruise before you get the chance to knock him out with your fire axe. Would the average straight from CTC Etc cadet to Bus/Boeing at <200 hours have the skill to be able to recover it? Maybe the older ex mil or those who came through GA then light TP over thousands of hours would stand a chance but I don't imagine the odds would be great apart from the ex mil and even then..


Do I remember correctly that the crew of the Fedex flight that was attacked by the dead-heading pilot put the plane upside down in an attempt to get the crazy/suicidal guy off of them?

[slatch]

Yes you do....

As part of his plan to disguise the intended attack as an accident, Calloway attempted to disable the cockpit voice recorder (CVR) by pulling its circuit breaker to interrupt CVR power. During standard pre-flight checks, 39-year old flight engineer Andy Peterson noticed the pulled breaker and reset it before take-off so the CVR was reactivated. However, if Calloway successfully killed the crew members with the CVR still on, he would simply have to fly for 30 minutes to erase any trace of a struggle from the CVR's 30 minute loop.[5] About twenty minutes after takeoff, as the flight crew carried on a casual conversation, Calloway entered the flight deck and commenced his attack with the hammers. Every member of the crew took multiple hammer blows which fractured both Peterson's and 42-year old co-pilot Jim Tucker's skulls, severing Peterson's temporal artery.[3] The blow to Tucker's head initially rendered him unable to move or react but he was still conscious. 49-year old Captain Dave Sanders reported that during the beginning of the attack, he could not discern any emotion from Calloway, just "simply a face in his eyes". When Calloway ceased his attack with hammers, Peterson and Sanders began to get out of their seats to counter-attack. Calloway left the cockpit and retrieved his spear gun. He came back into the cockpit and threatened everyone to sit back down in their seats. Despite loud ringing in his ear and being dazed, Peterson grabbed the gun by the spear between the barbs and the barrel. A lengthy struggle ensued, while Tucker, also an ex-Navy pilot, performed extreme aerial maneuvers with the aircraft.[6]

Tucker pulled the plane into a sudden 15 degree climb, throwing Sanders, Peterson and Calloway out of the cockpit and into the galley. To try to throw Calloway off balance, Tucker then turned the plane into a left roll, almost on its side. This rolled the combatants along the smoke curtain onto the left side of the galley. Eventually, Tucker had rolled the plane nearly upside down at 140 degrees, while attempting to maintain a visual reference of the environment around him through the windows. Peterson, Sanders and Calloway were then pinned to the ceiling of the plane. Calloway managed to reach his hammer hand free and hit Sanders in the head again. Just then, Tucker put the plane into a steep dive.[7] This pushed the combatants back to the seat curtain, but the wings and elevators started to flutter. At this point Tucker could hear the wind rushing against the cockpit windows. At 530 mph (853 km/h), the elevators on the plane became unresponsive due to the disrupted airflow. Tucker realized this was because the throttles were at full power. Releasing his only usable hand to pull back the throttles to idle, he managed to pull the plane out of the dive while it slowed down.[8]

Calloway managed to hit Sanders again while the struggle continued. Sanders was losing strength and Peterson was heavily bleeding from a ruptured artery. Sanders managed to grab the hammer out of Calloway's hand and attacked him with it. When the plane was completely level, Tucker reported to Memphis Center, informed them about the attack and requested a vector back to Memphis.[9] He requested an ambulance and "armed intervention", meaning he wanted SWAT to storm the plane. When Tucker began to hear the fight escalate in the galley, he put the aircraft into a right turn then back to the left.[10]

The flight crew eventually succeeded in restraining Calloway, though only after moments of inverted and near-transonic flight beyond the designed capabilities of a DC-10. Sanders took control and Tucker, who had by then lost use of the right side of his body, went back to assist Peterson in restraining Calloway. Sanders communicated with air traffic control, preparing for an emergency landing back at Memphis International Airport. Meanwhile, after screaming that he could not breathe, Calloway started fighting with the crew again.[11]

Heavily loaded with fuel and cargo, the plane was approaching too fast and too high to land on the scheduled runway 9. Sanders requested by radio to land on the longer runway 36L.[12] Ignoring warning messages from the onboard computer and using a series of sharp turns that tested the DC-10's safety limits, Sanders landed the jet safely on the runway at well over its maximum designed landing weight. By that time, Calloway was once again restrained. Emergency personnel and police gained access to the plane via escape slide and ladder. Inside, they found the cockpit interior covered in blood.[5] Calloway was then arrested and taken off the plane.

[Officer Kite]

This is a very interesting topic actually, we did a university study in this area (it was around the time of the germanwings incident) and the results and conclusions from the study were quite frightening.

[Praise Jebus]

If you want to mitigate the risk of deliberate suicide in a cockpit, you should limit the number of people in it

That's one way I suppose or perhaps a caring employer could actually take mental health seriously. Say, a protocol that allows easy and discrete access to mental health care for those that might need it. Train managers of critical function employees (eg pilots) to recognise and respond to concerns over a mental health issue. I recall the only response from TCAS to the German Wings suicide/homicide was to inform pilots that antidepressants are now on the list of drugs that will lose you your job...

[Besser]

Can we please have this utter stupid flight deck rule revoked again.

Replacing an extremely remote risk by another higher risk policy never made any sense, other
than selling ticket in a nervous market. However it just must change before anything ugly will happen.

I hope for Ek magement to grow some balls and revoke it.

In my opinion it has seriously affected the daily onboard working environment, in a quite negative way unfortunately. Not that im that naive to think they care.


I think more they would care about the commercial price of the media knowing that an middle east airline is giving none psychometric evaluated male CC by the thousands access to a 500+ passenger jet, left alone with one pilot on a every day basis. Hired with insufficient background check to eliminate the potential risk, and for the majority from the arab region. The lack of apparent risk analyse is insulting.

My next airline will have the old Policy for sure.

[SOPS]

PJ...that would be a typical TCAS ( read EK ) response. Why ami not surprised?

[harry the cod]

PJ

Why on Earth would anyone go to their manager with a health/mental concern? EK have peer support but more importantly, EAS (Employee Assistance). 100% confidential with trained professionals. There are the resources here, it just comes down to whether you know about them, use them or trust them.

Harry

[glofish]

100% confidential with trained professionals

Harry, please. Professionals, yes. And their intent to keep it confidential, i agree as well.

But in a country that bans Facetime calls, WhatsUp calls, tries desperately even with private Skype, where VPNs are illegal (unless used by an archaic EPT, naturally ....), where every employee is controlled on emigration/immigration and sentenced if caught non acclimatised although perfectly fit, no one believes for one second that there can be any credible confidentiality.

[harry the cod]

Glo

The only time councillors are obliged to disclose is if you have or likely to have suicidal tendencies. Other than that, they do a damn good job of keeping personal issues away from the Company. Managers don't ask because they know full well they'll not be told. There is integrity in the process, believe me. I speak from personal experience and that's no bull.

Just because we don't hear the success stories does not mean the system doesn't work.

Harry

[Talparc]

Harry:
Why was TCAS nearly every day at EAS when he was still dwarfing around? Maybe he got assistance too?

[fliion]

Harry:
Why was TCAS nearly every day at EAS when he was still dwarfing around? Maybe he got assistance too?

You have no idea of how inappropriate that post is, do you?

[motley flight crue]

Innapropriate, but funny

[perthbound]

As always with EK there is no middle ground.
It should be easy to send a request to fleet to have a particular set of days off in the following month but such requests are denied if they are even responded to.

I have two examples where our colleagues requested time off but were told to go fly or call in sick.

Example 1:
Daughter scheduled for surgery in Dubai on following month.
Father asks for thee day block so he can be there to check her into the hospital on the first day, be there for the surgery on the second and be there when she opens her eyes on day 3.
Instead he was forced to call sick for the three days and was called into the office on the following month to explain himself.

Example 2:
Another Pilot requested three days off to attend his brothers wedding in Europe....denied the time off.

In both cases fleet said they have no control over the schedule and in both cases we had very stressed employees going to work.

Harry, all the counselling in the world does not fix the real world situation we as expats and human being s have to deal with.
Our kids can be seriously ill and require hospital time, Family members have weddings and unfortunately family members can be becoming very ill and die.

Keep in mind the emergency leave does not cover the above situations in all cases and is normally deducted from your 42 day leave bank.

Mgt need to be more flexible with our reasonable requests.

[EchoKilla]

PJ

100% confidential with trained professionals.


Does this count how they all gossip at Kostha Kaafey - majority who barely even hold a degree in psychology. Isn't one of them always travelling - both Australians in fact. One too obsessed about his boyfriend who also works at EK and the other one never at her desk. Tsk tsk we do have a DOOZY as the saying goes.....................

[harry the cod]

EchoKilla

Serious allegation my friend. If you've overheard people discussing highly confidential material and you know who they are, you have a duty to report it. Problem is, I don't think you DO know who they are. The 'male' you're referring to with the boyfriend? The team consists of 7 specialists and they're all female. Sounds like you haven't got a Scooby Doo about what goes on in the EAS! And they either hold a degree or they don't.

Perthbound

In the case you mention with the child operation, why did he not contact EAS or peer support? Was the mother not available? If he was the only parent available, there would be good reason for EAS intervention. Regardless of their decision, I'd be telling Fleet I was having the time off and deal with the muppets later, like he did. FR in fleet is normally helpful with these type of issues but even JA when he was here had little control on rosters. It's a joke. Living as an expat does have challenges regarding family support so yes, I agree with you, the Company should be more flexible when it comes to dealing with issues. Problem is very few individuals, especially the fleet superintendents, are empowered to make any worthwhile decision.

My point is, this facility provides a good service that has helped many crew. I know this for a fact. The obvious deficiencies in Fleet with their lack of empathy and punitive policies on sickness is not a reason to ignore the potential of the EAS, especially in the context of this thread, mental health.


Harry

[EchoKilla]

EchoKilla

Serious allegation my friend. If you've overheard people discussing highly confidential material and you know who they are, you have a duty to report it. Problem is, I don't think you DO know who they are. The 'male' you're referring to with the boyfriend? The team consists of 7 specialists and they're all female. Sounds like you haven't got a Scooby Doo about what goes on in the EAS! And they either hold a degree or they don't.

Perthbound

In the case you mention with the child operation, why did he not contact EAS or peer support? Was the mother not available? If he was the only parent available, there would be good reason for EAS intervention. Regardless of their decision, I'd be telling Fleet I was having the time off and deal with the muppets later, like he did. FR in fleet is normally helpful with these type of issues but even JA when he was here had little control on rosters. It's a joke. Living as an expat does have challenges regarding family support so yes, I agree with you, the Company should be more flexible when it comes to dealing with issues. Problem is very few individuals, especially the fleet superintendents, are empowered to make any worthwhile decision.

My point is, this facility provides a good service that has helped many crew. I know this for a fact. The obvious deficiencies in Fleet with their lack of empathy and punitive policies on sickness is not a reason to ignore the potential of the EAS, especially in the context of this thread, mental health.


Harry

Negative - quite more than 7. Split between EGHQ & SZR. Some bounce between corp psych & EAP. The gent bounces between corp psych and EAP - look it up on HRDirect - they come under obscuring cost codes - some under Human resources and some under medical hence the peculiarity. The gossip part is true - maybe names are withheld but the stories are real / anything from this current tale of the flight deck to numerous others. Just depends on what time of the day you happen to be sipping those priceless lattes they whip up at Kostha.

The education bit / hmmmm well half and half - some are and some are questionable / just give it a visit 😉

[Jack D]

I have never had occasion to deal with EAS . My question is , if you need time off for a serious family event e .g. Funeral , child's operation or illness possibly overseas , can they help ? I would guess not , it's called life . In reality how dare one be denied the very few days needed to offer solace or suppport . As H said , if necessary just take the days you need , the explanation may be stressful but you'll feel much better and more empowered for it ! After all , most flight crew have a significant amount of leave owed to them ... the operative word being owed .

[fatbus]

Simple , press 2!

[Praise Jebus]

Harry I wasn't suggesting going to fleet with a mental health issue, that would be a disaster. But if managers were more aware of mental health then one of them might just consider it when punishing their minions. The reason the pilot screwed up the approach might just be due to the stress of his partners death or his/her divorce or any number of issues. And just maybe, instead of taking away a command and compounding the situation that leads to self harm, the poor pilot might get the help needed and be referred to one of your 100% confidential professionals....

[motley flight crue]

ECAM your an immature little deadbeat. More likely a teenager by your lack of any sort of knowledge. If your not interested if flying in the Middle East, why are you on the site. If your learning to fly, give up, you'll never pass any psych.

[uplock]

More progressive countries allow the use of medication and treatment for depression and you still get to keep your licence and job.
Here the answer is removal from roster, lose your licence and your life is turned upside down.
So give yourself a pat on the back GCAA medical department.

No pilot is going to report any symptoms even if they do have them. Its career suicide. Then again if no problem is reported what's the issue ?
Shame we can not strap your bums to a jump seat for a few months to see what we must deal with.
Article discussing link between lack of sleep and depression by Professor of Psychology, Goldsmiths, University of London here (https://theconversation.com/why-a-lack-of-sleep-makes-us-depressed-and-what-we-can-do-about-it-66446)

It has been proposed for some time now that by improving sleep we can perhaps prevent or treat depression. Recently, data have started to emerge from studies suggesting that this may indeed be the case.

[spanishfly69]

Uplock,

I will never defend EK. I just want to point out facts. You CAN fly taking anti depressants under the GCAA. GCAA copied the program from the Australian Civil Aviation. I am saying that for personal experience and dealing with the GCAA. There is big stigma in the world about depression specially in the aviation world. But the reality is that it is a not as bad as people think it is. Actually the real suicide is flying sick without taking the proper care.

[ruserious]

Not really mmm, they just hate paying out for ANYTHING, so if it can be removed then so it be gone

[kipper the dog]

As another thought on 2 person flight deck rule why is there no problem with the EK B777F flying around most of the time with 2 crew??

Probably because there is no flight deck door on the freighter :bored:

[glofish]

As another thought on 2 person flight deck rule why is there no problem with the EK B777F flying around most of the time with 2 crew??

I'd rather fly 2 crew than with some horse grooms from somewhere deep down in Kashmere.
But then again, they must be thoroughly screened and vetted and must pose a smaller risk than our wives .... (Quote from one of our managers stating this very reason as to why they can't fly with us as passengers, like on any civilised freighter worldwide)



It's basically simple: The rule of this topic increases the risk!

[Talparc]

because as long as they don't report each other everything is ok.
The problem starts when they meet in the galley!

[Kobus Dune]

Is that an impression, or do we have less cabin crew coming to the cockpit for discussion, as we had some years ago ?

Perception, suspicion on both sides now, attitude change from their managers, change of atmosphere since inception of the 2-persons rule, new generations, other reasons ?

[Flygirl71]

I find it pretty stupid that a supernumerary crew with a month long history in EK has to sit on a jump seat for takeoff and landing but a pilot on his off days is not allowed, its to easy for some lunatic get hired and then do something crazy, its just a matter of time.

What is stupid about it? Why should pilot on days off be in cockpit? I find that stupid

[Old King Coal]

Flygirl71: wrt "Why should pilot on days off be in cockpit?"... well perhaps they are travelling on standby (on their days off) but the main cabin is full, so an empty seat in the flightdeck would do nicely ?... indeed, in years gone by, we used to do that all the time (never leave staff members behind if we had empty seats); we even used to have pax in there with us too (especially so if they were particularly good looking).

[GoreTex]

I find you stupid flygirl, think first and then type