Hour Building Logbook entries

[pilotjimbo]

Hi All,

Currently at the stage of Hour Buiding whilst completing ATPLs.

When I started my PPL, I was always told to log T/O to LND time and add 5 mins either side to accomodate taxi/power checks.

My training and now my hour building is being mostly done at an airport with lots of revenue/airline traffic, quite often resulting in lengthy taxis and holds before I get airborne.

With the ultimate goal being fATPL, I want to ensure I make the most of my hour building and gain as much valuable experience as possible, however, I feel adding 5mins either side is sometimes quite far off the mark.

What is the legalities of logbook entries, and would I be entitled to record block off to block on time, rather than just add 5 minutes either side?

Thanks in advanced

[LastStandards]

Part-FCL definition:

"Flight time": for aeroplanes, touring motor gliders and powered-lift, it means the total time from the moment an aircraft first moves for the purpose of taking off until the moment it finally comes to rest at the end of the flight;

Therefore you should feel free to correctly log block times. The aircraft maintenance on flight times is a separate matter.

[Reverserbucket]

I have always believed the T/O - LDG plus a nominal amount for taxy out and back (some schools use -10/+5) was a UK CAA standard that protected the student pilot from mercenary schools where long taxy and pre-takeoff checks were being included in the accumulated training time, as is the norm in the USA for example where it's common to be airborne for less than 30 mins but instructors directing the student to log an hour (based on tacho). I've witnessed more than once sadly where, for an hour long 'Effects of Controls' exercise (i.e. Upper airwork), the actual airborne time was in fact just long enough to haul round the circuit once. And EASA ask how it's possible that basic handling skills have deteriorated in recent years :rolleyes:.

As a qualified pilot, I would log block time as Part-FCL implies and LastStandards suggests.

[Genghis the Engineer]

When I started my PPL, I was always told to log T/O to LND time and add 5 mins either side to accomodate taxi/power checks.
And you passed PPL air law?

I would log block time as Part-FCL implies and LastStandards suggests.
FCL and LastStandards aren't implying or suggesting anything. They are stating quite clearly what the rules are. You log brakes off to brakes on. Any local arrangements for charging are fair enough, but they aren't what goes in your logbook.

[Reverserbucket]

Bit harsh there Genghis but yes, alright semantics maybe but the message was the same - I was trying to be helpful.
You log brakes off to brakes on. Any local arrangements for charging are fair enough, but they aren't what goes in your logbookI appreciate that the OP is now licenced but is this really how it works during training these days? I believe you are an FI - do the places you have instructed really charge blocks off/on for all lessons? There are airfields where pre and post-flight actions including taxy can all be accommodated within block time but there are most certainly locations and circumstances when that is not the case, not least with a basic student in the early hours of training who naturally takes longer to complete checks. My example earlier is just one of many similar ones that would have never have been deemed acceptable when I was teaching either by staff or students; it was prescribed in the Flying Order Book on the basis of guidance from the CAA and that is what we logged (ex-CAP509 IRI).

[pilotjimbo]

And you passed PPL air law?


FCL and LastStandards aren't implying or suggesting anything. They are stating quite clearly what the rules are. You log brakes off to brakes on. Any local arrangements for charging are fair enough, but they aren't what goes in your logbook.



Aye I did, but being told by your FTO to log 5mins either side contradicts what you've learnt

[Genghis the Engineer]

I should change FTO, they may have other bad habits.

[BillieBob]

Flight time is clearly defined in FCL.010, precisely as LastStandards quoted, and is what should be entered in the logbook. What training organisations choose to record for charging purposes is entirely irrelevant to the OP's question. What happened under CAP509, when the CAA was still the rulemaker, is also entirely irrelevant.

[Reverserbucket]

BillieBob
Thanks for the clarification - its been many years since I instructed in the G/A world and certainly pre-EASA so I accept that my input is entirely irrelevant.
The OP wasn't asking about what his training provider was choosing to record for billing though, but rather what he had been told to log for the recording of flight time so presumably, if relatively recently, this "bad habit" still continues at some places? Is the point of discussion I was trying to make regarding excessive taxy time being counted toward accumulated flight time for training purposes also something EASA wouldn't give any consideration to? There are airfields in various locations around the world for example where elementary students training for the issue of Part-FCL licences typically taxy for 15-20 minutes then can hold for significantly longer waiting for IFR arrivals; do you feel this is fair to the student from a training and financial value perspective - or is that also irrelevant?

[Genghis the Engineer]

I think that you need to separate out logging and charging.

Where I do most of my instructing (as a CRI not an FI, not that it makes any difference in this context) it's common to charge on the basis of 15 minutes taxi time, regardless of what actually happened - this works reasonably well most of the time is that's near as dammit what it actually takes here: 10 to the runway and 5 from, and all charges are set as such.

On the other hand, some of the aircraft here charge on tacho - which actually means that your taxi time is virtually free as revs are low for virtually all of that.

If actual time was charged - yes, it can be a bit unfair at some airports where taxi time can vary so much, but on the other hand presumably it's understood, as are local conditions, and charges are set on that basis.

But none of this changes the basic legal point - LOGGED TIME is from when the aeroplane first moves under its own power, until it comes permanently to rest at the end of the flight. There should be absolutely no ambiguity about that - at-least in the European civil context, and I think in North America also.

It's really not hard after all to note separately what's loggable and what's chargeable. My PLOGs note tacho as well as brakes-off and brakes on, for example.

You could make a point that at some airports students are likely to need to log more time for the same training value than others, and that point would be valid. But, if the charging scheme is open and transparent, and they reach the skill test standard - it is what it is.

[Reverserbucket]

Thanks Genghis and I agree , we are talking about two different things and we used to charge in exactly the same way as you describe in my PPL days.

No argument concerning logged time either and as you say, there should be no ambiguity. I've muddied the water a bit by picking up on this training vs experience question but I was recently told by a former colleague that the CAA had rejected a proportion of night experience claimed by a number of students from a sizeable UK ATO for CPL application on the basis that the hours recorded had been based on Hobbs (as is my experience in the U.S for example). The students had to complete additional night flying on return to the UK. Fully appreciate this is outside the scope of PPL hours building in the UK at smaller airfields, but it does highlight the fact that students are not necessarily aware, regardless of their understanding of EASA Air Law, that there is possibly, just a chance that ambiguity may exist and I feel that pilotjimbo has demonstrated this. Apologies for thread drift.

[pilotjimbo]

Thanks for all your replies guys :)

As I tried to mention in my opening paragraph, I want to ensure I am as experienced and well prepared as possible when I start my CPL phase of training, and as such I am not looking to record 'an extra 10 minutes' of taxi time per flight for any kind of financial gain or quicker hour building; rather I was just looking for your opinion on the matter of the whole 5 minutes either side habit and whether actually I should be logging blocks time.

[Genghis the Engineer]

That I think we've established - you should most definitely be logging blocks time.

(Reverser- an interesting point about Hobbs, which will depend massively upon what the Hobbs is wired up to. If it's wired to the engine, the power master, or through a weight on wheels switch - you'll get three difference answers, all wrong. As it happens I do have an FAA PPL as well, and have flown at quite a few places there, none ever did logging on anything other than time, so the practice you've seen is definitely not universal over there.)

[Reverserbucket]

Quite right pilotjimbo, and I don't think any of us thought that you were for a minute. You have your answer now though from FCL.010 : "...total time from the moment an aircraft first moves for the purpose of taking off until the moment it finally comes to rest at the end of the flight."

Out of interest, where are you conducting your hour building?

Genghis
If it's wired to the engine, the power master, or through a weight on wheels switch - you'll get three difference answers, all wrong. As it happens I do have an FAA PPL as well, and have flown at quite a few places there, none ever did logging on anything other than time, so the practice you've seen is definitely not universal over there.)It was Battery Master.

[Genghis the Engineer]

What was the quality of the human product from that sausage machine?