Aug 1. 2017: MD Explorer crashed in the austrian alps

[skadi]

A MD902 crashed after takeoff from a alpin hut ( 11200ft ) near Grossglockner summit. The crew and patient received no or light injuries.
Hubschrauber kippt auf Glockner um - tirol.ORF.at (http://tirol.orf.at/news/stories/2858243/)

skadi

[SilsoeSid]

Hubschrauber kippt auf Glockner um - tirol.ORF.at (http://tirol.orf.at/news/stories/2858243/)
google translated.

Helicopter tilts to Glockner

A dramatic incident took place on Tuesday evening on the Großglockner. A rescue helicopter, which wanted to fly a patient from a shelter to the hospital, tipped to the side after the start.

The accident occurred at 8:15 pm in the Großglockner area. The rescue helicopter Martin 4 from the base Matrei in Osttirol had a 48-year-old mountaineer, who had complained about heart problems, at the Erzherzog-Johann-Hütte.

Alpine police ensure traces
At the start the machine was caught by a strong gust of wind. According to the pilot, the blast pushed the helicopter down, then tipped over, said Roy Knaus, Flight Operations Manager and owner of the helicopter fleet, against the ORF: "First the runners touched the ground, then the machine has tipped over and then has The rotor touches the ground. "

http://oekastatic.orf.at/static/images/site/oeka/20170831/martin3.5637271.jpg
The crash occurred near the Archduke Johann Hut

On Wednesday morning, the alpine police were still busy with tracking. During the day the flight accident commission would arrive, according to Knaus.

http://oekastatic.orf.at/static/images/site/oeka/20170831/martin2.5637270.jpg

Doctor suffered nasal bone fracture
The pilot and aircreppers were able to free themselves from the helicopter after the incident, they remained uninjured. The emergency physician suffered a nosebone fracture. The 48-year-old patient from Germany was also reportedly hurt by the police. He was flown to Lienz hospital with another rescue helicopter.

Having landed at the same spot in an Alouette 3 a few years ago, + you can also probably see from the top pic, that this could have been so much worse an outcome.

[Non-PC Plod]

I like the term "aircrepper". I bet they were crepping themselves when this happened!

[Thomas coupling]

Is there a bone in the nose?
And why was there Police brutality against the patient after the event? Shame on them.
I would have preferred to remain uninjured after the incident myself .

[wiedehopf]

@thomas this is a more accurate translation:
"The 48-year-old patient from Germany was also hurt according to the police"

and aircrepper should be something like airborne paramedic

[Thomas coupling]

Wiedhopf - I'm sorry "wit" (even badly presented) is a very British trait, for good or bad. Ask the Yanks.

I apologise.:rolleyes:

[wiedehopf]

@thomas don't sweat it i got the humour :)

somehow i lost sight of it though in the bad translation and had to provide a better one, it's the internet after all!

[Flyting]

Amateurvideo zeigt Hubschrauberabsturz - kaernten.ORF.at (http://kaernten.orf.at/news/stories/2858257/)

Video of the accident :eek:

[Thomas coupling]

http://oekastatic.orf.at/static/images/site/oeka/20170831/hubi4.5637274.jpg
Michael Umschaden, Pilot und Stützpunktleiter des ÖAMTC-Rettungshubschraubers C11 in Klagenfurt sagt, als Pilot habe man in solchen Situationen nur begrenzte Möglichkeiten zu reagieren: „Konstanter Wind hilft beim Flug, plötzliche Windböen, die vor allem in den Bergen auftreten, sind aber schwer einzuschätzen.“ Deswegen würde der C11 bei hochalpinen Einsätzen auf das Nötigste geleert, um mehr Leistung zu haben.

Michael left the handbrake off.

http://oekastatic.orf.at/static/images/site/oeka/20170831/hubi6.5637320.jpg
Der Unfall am Dienstagabend war nicht der erste der Firma Knaus. Firmeninhaber Roy Knaus verlor seinen Vater im Jahr 1997 bei einem Hubschrauberabsturz - mehr dazu in Immer wieder Unfälle in Firmengeschichte Knaus (tirol.ORF.at, 29.4.2012). Bestätigt wurde mittlerweile, dass der Pilot, der am Dienstagabend am Glockner unterwegs war, 2012 in Tirol an einem tödlichen Unfall beteiligt war. Damals war er am Großvenediger in eine Nebelbank geraten, drei Männer am Seil klinkte er deswegen aus, einer davon starb beim Aufprall auf den Gletscher

Luckily some walkers found it at the bottom of this gulley and called the AA.

http://oekastatic.orf.at/static/images/site/oeka/20170831/hubi1.5637277.jpg
Der Absturz eines Rettungshubschraubers am Dienstagabend am Großglockner beschäftigt nun die Flugunfallkommission. Der Flugbetreiber Knaus schließt ein technisches Gebrechen aus. Ein Amateurfilmer filmte den Absturz mit.

The front bumper was damaged but otherwise it was repairable.

http://oekastatic.orf.at/static/images/site/oeka/20170831/hubi5.5637309.jpg
Knapp rechts unter der Hütte stürzte der Rettungshubschrauber ab, nur wenige Meter davon entfernt befindet sich eine steil abfallende Felswand.

It was towed to the nearest garage at the top of the hill.

[Phoinix]

What was a NOTAR doing up there such conditions in the first place?

[Flying Bull]

What was a NOTAR doing up there such conditions in the first place?
Do you have more information about performance at altitude regarding NOTAR?
Don´t have a rating on MD, only heard someting about coanda-effect with air travelling along the tailboom i.e. - which might give problems in gusty conditions.
Watching the video I saw a helicopter, which was still light on the skids, when the PAX-pic up started...
And a pilot, who tried to continue to hover, when either a firmer contact with the ground - or a progressive effort to fly away, would have been a better way - thats what I think

[Helicopter ASI]

Good to hear everyone is OK for the most part! Any idea what the aircraft registration number is?

[Spunk]

In the newspaper article it says:
When the helicopter wanted to take off with the patient on board, problems arose. According to the pilot, a violent gust of wind pushed the helicopter down again

In the video I see a helicopter making an approach and not a departure.

In the video I see an inversion layer and dust slowly moving away after the crash but I don't see any indications for violent gusts.

What I do see is a helicopter pilot having problems finding a solid stand on the gravel.

[GoodGrief]

The video contradicts the pilot's testimony.
At over 11000 feet he ran out of left pedal on lose and slopy ground, probably paired with a bit of spacial disorientation losing reference looking down the mountain.

[Phoinix]

If the weather was anything like 70 km SE, we had 20ºC and winds 14, gusting 25 kts @7.000ft PA.

902 FLM:

[Flying Bull]

The Johann hut - is 3.454 m ASL - about 11.300 feet....
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erzherzog-Johann-H%C3%BCtte
With the chart given - the gusts may well have exceded the demonstrated limits.....

[jymil]

Looks like the wind was blowing from the valley, i.e. left crosswind at first. However the pilot never put it down on solid ground but hovering around. When he turns further right, he gets himself into tail wind, which pushes him further right (weather cock effect) and this is where it gets out of control. I'd say this is pretty much textbook LTE.

[MikeNYC]

Ground handler sure got lucky.

[Hedski]

Can NOTAR suffer LTE given the jet of air is pushed out of the tail boom?

[henra]

Ground handler sure got lucky.

Small correction: Stellar performance of Guardian Angels of ALL involved. :ok:


They all should celebrate an additional birthday from now on.
What I saw in the vid is pretty much how I would define close call... :eek:

[atakacs]

Amazing that no one was seriously hurt or worse.
Can anyone confirm the flight envelope of this aircraft?

[Flying Bull]

Can NOTAR suffer LTE given the jet of air is pushed out of the tail boom?

Its a combination of air pushed out with airflow modified over the tailboom...
So yes, LTE is possible

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/NOTAR

[[email protected]]

Certainly looks like classic LTE/LTA even though there isn't actually a TR involved - undemanded/unexpected yaw that wasn't/couldn't be brought under control.

Perhaps the best option was to transition to forward flight.

Initially I thought such a sharp mountain feature might produce violent gusts but the video shows quite a laminar and steady flow.

[Thomas coupling]

Correctomondo Crab the Notar does have a tail rotor - but it's parked up where the sun don't shine!

I reckon it's a mixture of gusty conditions and light on the skids. Skid digs in and ooops a daisy.

[nigelh]

I see no relevance to a skid digging in or any sign of that . Also no sign of TR fan failure ( the spin would have been far more aggressive ) . Either he just ran out of pedal ( pulling too much power plus wind on tail ) or never gave it full pedal ( unlikely as a professional ) . He would have done better to take off when he realised he was in bad spot and found better place to land properly or find a place he could be light on skids but into the wind .

[Hot and Hi]

The Johann hut - is 3.454 m ASL - about 11.300 feet....
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erzherzog-Johann-H%C3%BCtte
With the chart given - the gusts may well have exceded the demonstrated limits.....
To add insult to injury: Mid summer on the mountains. OAT most likely well above ISA.

[Aucky]

https://ibb.co/n2m76a
https://ibb.co/n2m76a
Seems they were a bit high for HOGE (not sure of OAT) and ran out of pedal. Nose down the valley would probably have been the best action, in hindsight.

The linked graph is the 207 variant, the 206 (if fitted) performing a little less well at altitude.

[Thomas coupling]

Nigel me old stalker you obviously didn't pass German O level or is it "Ö" - Stufe.

Zuerst haben die Kufen den Boden berührt, dann ist die Maschine umgekippt, und dann hat der Rotor den Boden berührt.“.

What do you think happened now after reading that............................:ugh:

[Flying-dutch]

TC, did you look at the video of the accident?
you don't need to understand German to see it's spinning out of control instead of a rollover due to gusty winds.

And when you do speak German (as I do) you do put question marks comparing the video and the first statement.
But the final report will reveal it all I guess.

[jymil]

He would have done better to take off when he realised he was in bad spot and found better place to land properly or find a place he could be light on skids but into the wind .
Yep, putting it into the wind in the first place would have been better. Sometimes it's hard to judge the wind, but in this case they had people on the ground being capable to tell the pilot. In picture #2 of post #9 it also looks like landing into the wind would have been possible on this spot.

[[email protected]]

Correctomondo Crab the Notar does have a tail rotor - but it's parked up where the sun don't shine! so it's not a tail rotor then:) Its a fan blowing air down the tail boom to the coanda slot and the buckety-blower arrangement.:ok:

[jymil]

so it's not a tail rotor then:) Its a fan blowing air down the tail boom to the coanda slot and the buckety-blower arrangement.:ok:

Check the causes of LTE: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Loss_of_tail-rotor_effectiveness

1. Main-rotor vortexes pushed into the tail rotor by wind.
2. Wind from the tail (6 o'clock) can cause the helicopter to attempt to weathervane into the wind.
3. Wind moving in the same direction as the tail rotor moves air

1 cannot happen with NOTAR, but it is not prone against 2 and 3.

[[email protected]]

It's got big vertical stabilisers which can help it weathervane into wind and combinations of rotor downwash and crosswind can affect the coanda flow on the tailboom.

Don't rely on wikipedia ffs.

[Ascend Charlie]

LTE???? Har har har, the Bell Spin Team is high-fiving and celebrating the total brainwashing of the junior rotary community. The term LTE is firmly embedded in the skulls, and is brandished whenever some poor coot runs out of power pedal, be it from altitude, bad wind direction, or pilot pushing his luck.

With a NOTAR, surprise surprise, THERE IS NO TAIL ROTOR. Yes, he may have run out of anti-torque power, but it ain't LTE.

It certainly looks like a simple case of running out of power, a right turn which doesn't get corrected, the momentum builds up, a bit of nose-down pitching occurs, and splat, or as they say hereabouts, Geschplattenzerden.

[Thomas coupling]

I do apologise most profusely, this reference people are making to a video? I've only just found the link by scrolling thru from the beginning again! Ooops.

As Ascend Charlie states, this is most definitely loss of directional control due to the major gusts he was obviously experiencing. The gusts must have robbed him of most of his coanda effect thus making directional control more sensitive and he moves into pilot induced oscilating in yaw and then the nose dips.
Quite frankly, he must be one of the luckiest guys on the planet - if she had rolled to port instead of the way she did go, he'd have fallen a n enormous distance to his untimely end.
Correct - NOTAR's don't suffer from LTE (no helos do except OH-58's and some 206's but there is an argument for them losing LTA during certain cross wind/tail wind situations and at the bottom of auto's (even though the TR is in the cone, it's still a tail rotor design but not situated at the end of the tail cone but at the beginning..

Ascend - when did you retire. You must have gone well past 40 yrs of flying?

[nigelh]

An apology from TC .....the whole world has gone crazy 😱

[[email protected]]

AC - It certainly looks like a simple case of running out of power, a right turn which doesn't get corrected - can't make the quotes thingy work today

The second part is clearly correct - how do you come to the conclusion that he ran out of power?

LTE is, as has been discussed before, an invention of Bell to explain their TRs aren't big enough but it has become a useful term, along with LTA to explain yaw deviations due to aerodynamic or mechanical (LTA) reasons

[handysnaks]

As it is 10 years since I last flew a 902, the memory has faded a bit but I do seem to recall the RFM showing a prohibited sector of about 60 degrees of relative wind direction from one of the rear quarters, above certain altitudes, but like a bus, if we wait a bit, a proper 902 pilot should come along to give a more educated 'guess'

[skadi]

As it is 10 years since I last flew a 902, the memory has faded a bit but I do seem to recall the RFM showing a prohibited sector of about 60 degrees of relative wind direction from one of the rear quarters, above certain altitudes, but like a bus, if we wait a bit, a proper 902 pilot should come along to give a more educated 'guess'

See post #15

skadi

[handysnaks]

Ahh, that's the one. I obviously missed it in my hurry to post before the actual reason is known :)

[jymil]

It's got big vertical stabilisers which can help it weathervane into wind and combinations of rotor downwash and crosswind can affect the coanda flow on the tailboom.
Don't rely on wikipedia ffs.

Ok, the wiki article is not that great on a second glance. But in any case, my point was that an uncommanded yaw (yes, technically not necessarily LTE) can be caused by effects which are independent of TR/NOTAR, like the wathervane effect caused by shape of the fuselage or wind/gusts countering the thrust direction of the TR/NOTAR.

[Hot and Hi]

In better resolution
https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=50c_1501851597

[Flying Bull]

Watching the full video brings up more questions.
What was with Crew coordination?
The sliding door was opend and pax started to get in immediately.
Did the pilot even had a chance to put the bird down before additional weight was added?
Might have contributed to the accident!

[jimf671]

We don't know from this video whether this was his first approach to the location. If it was his first approach then perhaps being close to an edge beyond which there were unexplored air conditions was not a good plan.

[atakacs]

Did the pilot even had a chance to put the bird down before additional weight was added?
Might have contributed to the accident!

My thoughts exactly.

Also wasn't this a medevac flight? What business had the guy (?) to jump in as he did!?

[Ascend Charlie]

When I said "running out of power" I referred to not having "control power", or directional authority, or basically running out of left pedal.

Ascend - when did you retire. You must have gone well past 40 yrs of flying?

Yes, 3 years ago after 45 years and 15,000 hrs. Not much, in many circles, but enough to say "been there, done some of that."

[alouette]

I looked at the footage a few times, and the pilot plus crew as well as the person at the landing site, had more than just an ounce of luck. Also, and that is just sheer speculation, the power margin seemed narrow, the surface of the landing site prompted the pilot not to put it down fully on the ground, and when he possibly decided to turn the aircraft around, he ran out of directional control. It is scary to look at this scenario. But then again, this is my view. I am certainly interested on the findings of the accident investigation team.

[Washeduprotorgypsy]

We don't know from this video whether this was his first approach to the location. If it was his first approach then perhaps being close to an edge beyond which there were unexplored air conditions was not a good plan.

Well the dustball at the end, highlights the "backlash rotor" quite nicely at the landing spot, no question as to the relative winds. Makes we wonder if the ol Coanda effect was a little disturbed by the windward upflow of the face.

Brain must have been screaming "mechanical" to miss the chance to dump into wind down the valley.

[hueyracer]

I am just guessing now (like the rest of us):

The pilot was well aware of being "on the edge" of power there, so he wanted to keep it short and quick....
He was not able to put full skids on the ground, as the spot he picked did not allow this, so he was trying to balance it on the skids, which at that altitude and which the wind (?) required some power changes in pedal and pitch...
He ran out of left pedal, and the helicopter started to turn.....instead of lowering the pitch (and risking to have the helicopter start sliding on the ground), he increased it, making it worse...

When the helicopter started coming around he probably had the pitch already all the way up under his arm..........easy to say what he should have done now, but once you´re in the cockpit, we all know that a decision has to be made in a split of a second.....this is where experience kicks in.........

[Bellrider]

"Brain must have been screaming "mechanical" to miss the chance to dump into wind down the valley.[/QUOTE]


That's an very good advice!
We had the same in our company a few years ago! Simple LTE in 1000ft ground, Heli starts spinning, pilots was shure that he lost the tailrotor!
So he startet autorotation and crashed in a village!
Nothing mechanical was found! If he speeds up with nose down nothing happend.....

[[email protected]]

A question for those with NOTAR experience - how good is the directional control at lowish power ie less than hover power?

If he was sitting in updraughting air - he was at the forward edge of the ridge - he may have found that he was struggling to keep the aircraft down when he landed - a combination of the surface and gusting updraught.

In those conditions, is the directional bucket capable of producing enough thrust, quickly, to cope with rapidly changing demands?

It seems that once he gets airborne, he should have been OK but if he was already struggling with yaw control, he might have been reluctant to apply full power pedal to arrest the yaw.

[Hughes500]

Crab

Never flown a 902 but a lot on a 520, the biggest thing is the slow response of the anti torque system. Once you are used to it not a problem but does give a problem when there is an unexpected gust ! Well that was my opinion compared to a tail rotor. In some respects it is comparable to a fenestron on a 341 in a strong wind doing spot turns if you want a comparison you would understand. Before everyone shoots me down here I know the comparison is not hugely accurate but it is to give a feel for Crab as he would have more than a few hours on a 341

[rottenjohn]

Watching the full video brings up more questions.
What was with Crew coordination?
The sliding door was opend and pax started to get in immediately.
Did the pilot even had a chance to put the bird down before additional weight was added?
Might have contributed to the accident!

Agree with you, I doubt the pilot was ready or had given the ok

[[email protected]]

Hughes 500 - thanks, I know exactly what you mean:ok:

[Aucky]

While I like the NOTAR system a lot, the 902 anti-torque is less immediately responsive than most conventional tail rotor systems I've flown. When at MAUW and hot, even at lower altitudes you can find yourself applying a surprising amount of left pedal when flying helipad profiles or HOGE with a wind from the right, or arresting a clockwise yaw. It really wouldn't surprise me at all if at 11'000 ft PA on a +ISA day you might easily run out of left pedal. When you pass around three quarters left pedal there is a noticeable audible change in the aircraft as the NOTAR fan blades' pitch increase towards max - something that personally I think is apparent in this video whilst the aircrwaft is yawing to the right. My feel is that he's sat at full left pedal in efforts to stop the yaw, but it's not working.

Crab, generally no problem with NOTAR at low power settings but I have no first hand experience of the impact of a strong/gusty updraught on the effect of coanda in the hover. It's an interesting question - the coanda effect alone is providing approximately 60-70% of the anti-torque in the hover with just 30-40% provided by the thruster can (or so they say). If the updraugh were to significantly disrupt the required flow around the tailboom, enough to reduce the coanda, then it would put significantly more demand on the thruster drum which was probably already at full chat. That said I still think it was more likely a case of WAT and running out of pedal.

[[email protected]]

Thanks for the info Aucky - it's probably difficult to differentiate exactly what caused the loss of yaw control but operating at high DA in gusty mountain conditions will always be challenging and it will expose any weakness in man or machine.

[Washeduprotorgypsy]

"Brain must have been screaming "mechanical" to miss the chance to dump into wind down the valley.


That's an very good advice!
[/QUOTE]

Yes, it' a heck of a plan provided you are sure you haven't rapped the tail rotor in to a tree/rock outcropping. Also wonder if in the midst of all the excitement if he pardonably forgets he's flying a NOTAR machine from years hard wired in a conventional machine. Rough day.

[500guy]

Well the dustball at the end, highlights the "backlash rotor" quite nicely at the landing spot, no question as to the relative winds. Makes we wonder if the ol Coanda effect was a little disturbed by the windward upflow of the face.

Brain must have been screaming "mechanical" to miss the chance to dump into wind down the valley.


Many years ago I did my introduction to mountain flying in a Hughes269 in the on a hot breezy day in the Cascades.

The in instructor picked out several ridge lines for me to attempt a light on the skids landing. In each case, he asked me to set it up with an exit strategy in case we ran out of power or started to get LTE before we set the skids down. Wouldn't you know it, in the highest 3 attempts, we did get one or both! and we had to bail out down the mountain.

Perhaps he was not properly instructed, but I cant imagine any pilot with the mountain flying basics who wouldn't begin that approach with the expectation that he was at the limits of the aircraft and he may have to have to bail out over that ridgeline at the first sign of trouble.

[[email protected]]

500guy - the problem is that your escape route generally disappears once you get the skids on the ground.

This guy's approach was fine and he makes it to the forward edge of the ridge line to try and stay in clear air - just as I expect you were taught - the last few feet to the ground may well have taken him below the demarcation line and into the gusty turbulent air.

[3top]

According to the factory data-sheet - in this case it is possible to do the work on this site with the conditions as they were - but depending on the actual weights he might have been past the limit! ISA+20 is possible but at a way reduced AUW....

Curious what the report will say....