AS350 swashplate bearing HOT

[Mutant Mthfr]

My chief pilot insists that my colleagues and I continue to operate a squirrel on a rescue contract with the swashplate bearing becoming too hot to hold your hand on after a 20min flight.

What would you do?

[Evil Twin]

Say no, not until it has been checked and cleared by maintenance

[Frying Pan]

Mutant,

Last week you complained that your CP wanted you to fly with a caution light on in the B206! Now the CP's asking you to fly with a hot swashplate! You need to stand up and be counted and not fly. At least can you name the company so that me and my family never go near your operation.

Cheers FP.

[John R81]

Mutant,

Last week you complained that your CP wanted you to fly with a caution light on in the B206! Now the CP's asking you to fly with a hot swashplate! You need to stand up and be counted and not fly. At least can you name the company so that me and my family never go near your operation.

Cheers FP.



Give him the keys, then casually ask if his life insurance is up-to-date and his affairs are in order.

[icedriver]

What next? My boss wants me to fly a 225 with an MGB chip light?

[OvertHawk]

You know what you should do.

You are a Professional Pilot - Do the right thing.

Record the defect in the tech log - and then see if the engineers are happy to sign it off as not a problem. It's one thing to tell you it's ok - but make them put their money where their mouth is and write it down.

If you allow that situation to continue without intervening or, if necessary, reporting it to the authorities then you may well end up in the horrible position of sitting reading the accident report and having to acknowledge that you could - and should - have prevented it.

Yes - you might suffer as a result of doing the right thing, but others may suffer if you do not.

[gulliBell]

...Record the defect in the tech log...

Exactly. I'm surprised the question was asked in the first place.

[AAKEE]

Exactly. I'm surprised the question was asked in the first place.

All good answers to a question that should not have been neded to ask.
Im sure 'mutant' had'nt asked if he did'nt need to.

[gulliBell]

It is prudent to discuss a snag defect item with the maintenance controller before writing it in the tech log. Only because it offers a degree of protection against trigger-happy management all too keen to fire a pilot for putting a defect in the book. I got fired once for writing a defect in the book, but they had to un-fire me once the maintenance controller admitted to the bosses that I discussed the problem with him first.

[OvertHawk]

I will certainly discuss with the engineering department before I write things in the book but only for the purpose of correctly understanding the nature of the defect so that I can accurately record it.

The concept of asking permission before writing up snags is preposterous. And the suggestion that you would / could not write up a defect if "Management" told you not to is... Criminal.

OH

[brett s]

It may be hard to do what's right when your job is on the line, but what's your life worth? What about everyone else?

That's not the sort of operator I would want to keep working for anyways.

Been there, done that, got fired - in this case I was the A&P too.

[palacio802]

I quite understand your situation. I'm 41 and I was "retired" 5 years ago from the Air Force after recurrent complaints about the safety policy in my unit. Now, I have the civilian licences but, nobody wants to hire a pilot with a "complaining" record here. You know. 2000+ hrs and you are not flying? something must be wrong with you...

First thing I thought after loosing my job was that I had ruined my life. Then, a helicopter in my ex-squadron crashed. 4 death. One year after this, another mishap. Three death. I know that probably I won't fly a helicopter any more. So sad. But I'm alive.

It's a difficult decission but perhaps my story can help you. Regards.

[SASless]

I would find another company to work for...Life is short enough without putting up with crap maintenance and dangerous management practices.

[gulliBell]

Fired for tech'ing it?....

Yep...there was a memo from management that pilots weren't to write any defects in the tech log. Pilots had to report defects to the maintenance engineer, and the maintenance engineer would make the entry.

[Downupside]

Hi, pardon my ignorance, but what is the definition of a hot swashplate? And your hands temperature acceptance level?
Go to maintenance, let them fix or clear this, give them credit/trust for what they do and recommend. full stop. Anything else is speculation beyond my/your area of responsibility.
My 2cts
Kami

[Efirmovich]

Hi, pardon my ignorance, but what is the definition of a hot swashplate? And your hands temperature acceptance level?
Go to maintenance, let them fix or clear this, give them credit/trust for what they do and recommend. full stop. Anything else is speculation beyond my/your area of responsibility.
My 2cts
Kami


Well said !! So much s**t talked on here,,, what do you expect when you are setting fire to 160Ltr/Hr of jet A1, stone cold ??
A brew is hot to the touch but that doesn't make it undrinkable ! If you are concerned you could get the engineer to measure the temp accurately and let him decide or alternatively go down the pub and talk to some bloke who used to service lawn mowers and knows everything ! :ugh:


E.

[Nubian]

So much s**t talked on here,,, what do you expect when you are setting fire to 160Ltr/Hr of jet A1, stone cold ?? E.

Your contribution is just what you say..... s**t!


To the OP:
When it comes down to a maintenance issue, it is not up to the CP to decide what goes or not, but the DOM

[riff_raff]

Hi, pardon my ignorance, but what is the definition of a hot swashplate? And your hands temperature acceptance level?
Go to maintenance, let them fix or clear this, give them credit/trust for what they do and recommend. full stop. Anything else is speculation beyond my/your area of responsibility.
My 2cts
Kami

Good point. A metal bearing surface at 180degF would be too hot to touch for most people. Yet it could easily still be within acceptable operating limits for the swash plate system. Ask your maintenance people to look into it.

[JohnDixson]

Downupsides point is well taken.

Swashplate bearing temperature in normal conditions may vary according to design.

Info on the one monitoring system I have access to ( but it is the original 92 manual, so subject to later changes ), is as follows. The bearing monitor system provides a caution " S/P Temp Detect " caution when the bearing temp is 100F over ambient. EP is to land as soon as practical. The system also has a "S/P Temp Limit " warning, triggered by a bearing temp ( straight, raw temp ) of 300F, and the EP is to land as soon as possible.

Not to restart old discussions, but this is a single point failure mode that has proven to be susceptible to Mfgr/QA error.

[rotorfan]

I agree with riff_raff, and would even modify his statement by saying 180degF would be too hot for anyone to touch.

I work on high precision machining equipment for my business. While touring a machine with a new laser thermometer in hand, I was checking the temps of all sorts of mechanisms. I was particularly interested in the hydraulic system, knowing from too many experiences that pumps and valves had inflicted pain. What's this? Only 125degF (52C) hurt enough that I couldn't touch it for 2 seconds without yanking my hand away. I was fascinated to realize how little above our body temperature was the threshold of pain. It's also interesting that poking my finger in a cuppajoe might feel hot, though it might not be as hot as I prefer to drink it.

As riff_raff says, it may seem quite hot to our touch, and yet nothing to tough steel. It needs to be actually measured and then investigated. Feeling hot to the touch could mean 130 or 530, just irrelevant.

[Wiggins61]

I agree with riff_raff, and would even modify his statement by saying 180degF would be too hot for anyone to touch.

I work on high precision machining equipment for my business. While touring a machine with a new laser thermometer in hand, I was checking the temps of all sorts of mechanisms. I was particularly interested in the hydraulic system, knowing from too many experiences that pumps and valves had inflicted pain. What's this? Only 125degF (52C) hurt enough that I couldn't touch it for 2 seconds without yanking my hand away. I was fascinated to realize how little above our body temperature was the threshold of pain. It's also interesting that poking my finger in a cuppajoe might feel hot, though it might not be as hot as I prefer to drink it.

As riff_raff says, it may seem quite hot to our touch, and yet nothing to tough steel. It needs to be actually measured and then investigated. Feeling hot to the touch could mean 130 or 530, just irrelevant.

Not unusual for a swashplate to run hot especially after being lubricated or newly installed. Hot to the touch means nothing. Easy enough for maintenance to check the condition of the bearing by disconnecting the pitch links, drive link and spinning the rotating ring. Nothing wrong with being cautious but you should be offered an explanation. The three I usually offer up are, "they're all like that", "it's the gauge" or "I can't fix it".

[NickLappos]

Wiggins61 is right, on all counts. The grease lubed roller or ball bearings can get to about 250 to 300 degrees and still be very happy. The limit, based on the type of grease used, can be a temperature that will blister your finger. That doesn't mean this is normal for your type, so there is nothing wrong with personally discussing your observations with the maintenance chief, and even a wander thru the maintenance manual.

[Mutant Mthfr]

I was hoping to receive advise from experienced AS350 operators.
So far not one reply.
Even the reverent Mr Lappos appears to have no knowledge of the operating requirements of the as350.
Every rotorcraft on the Australian register has a placard on the instrument panel stating that the rotorcraft MUST be operated IAW the approved flight manual.
The AS350 flight manual is clear in its requirements for after the last flight of the day checks.

Swashplate Bearing: check to be performed within five minutes after rotor stops.....No abnormal heating felt when touched with hand, no grease runs, no change in colour, no scaling of paint.

So, what is abnormal?
If a prudent pilot performed this check after the last flight of the day, as the RFM mandates, he would soon learn that under normal operating conditions his swashplate would NOT be HOT to the touch. Not hot is normal.
Hot is abnormal.

In my case the chief pilot is also the maintenance controller and company owner. He is a standover man. A bully and a tyrant with a propensity for violent outbursts. He holds the maintenance provider over a barrel by way of unpaid invoices.

So, once again I'll ask the question.......

What would you do?

[Bravo73]

Get a job elsewhere.

[Frying Pan]

Jeez Mutant, this thread drift went on regarding the temp limitations and technicals etc etc. But the bottom line was, what would you do?

Better to be unemployed than dead. Better still to let other people know rather than have blood on your conscience from something you knew wasn't right.

Now, just deal with it, as I mentioned before this isn't the first time you've posted a similar experience.

P.s if you're on the Gold Coast I know exactly who you mean. :ugh:

[palacio802]

I was hoping to receive advise from experienced AS350 operators.
So far not one reply.

...

In my case the chief pilot is also the maintenance controller and company owner. He is a standover man. A bully and a tyrant with a propensity for violent outbursts. He holds the maintenance provider over a barrel by way of unpaid invoices.

So, once again I'll ask the question.......

What would you do?

I hope you'll have the specialized reply you want... but sincerely, the problem here is not if the swashplate is hot (you have the manual and you already know that it is abnormal, ¿right?). The point is that you are a pilot and you have lost confidence in the maintenance system and management in your company. This is a bad situation for all the involved here. You end up thinking that something bad can happen, which puts a lot of stress on you and even fear every time you here a noise from above (I have passed through this). On the other hand, pilots with no confidence in the maintenance systems ara soon tagged as "picky" pilots and are really difficult to handle by the management.

You should look for a job in another company before they fire you.

[Cyclic Hotline]

A general but very specific question is asked here, without the appropriate qualifying reference that the OP already has at hand. If you wanted to get a better take on the situation then you might have provided this information from your Flight Manual at the first instance, instead of promoting responses then critiquing them?

I would always recommend that discussing an item is discussed with your maintainer prior to writing it in the book. However, if it is a defect, I know of no Aviation Regulatory system that allows you to NOT record it in the logbook; with the appropriate rectification/action being accomplished and returned to service by an appropriately authorized person prior to any further flight. I do know of companies getting audited and found to have no defect or rectification entries in their logbooks being an immediate red-flag that there is either a secondary recording system or an alternative systemic culture of the internal process of managing the maintenance of the machine and the personel within the organization. If a review of the maintenance logbook reveals parts changes that could only have been detected in flight and no other entries have been made, you need to look very closely at the entire operation, management, processes and policies that exist. Remember, that if you are the Pilot and are not following the regulatory process, you may be left as the one holding the bag!

If you don't have the answer and your maintenance provider doesn't have the answer then you need to escalate the quest for definitive information. In this instance contact the OEM through your local Tech Rep. To ensure you always get a response do it in writing. In this specific maintenance instance, I can assure you that you are playing with fire. I can also assure you that the OEM will have some very specific recommendations for you. I can also eassure you that your Regulatory organization will have some very specific actions to bring you (as well as your employer) back into line.

More simply. Do you want to die? If you're working in an organization that operates in this manner, it can only operate this way with your complicit participation!

In the meantime, read this report and understand WHY this warning is in your AFM. This was a tragic and very avoidable loss.

https://app.ntsb.gov/pdfgenerator/ReportGeneratorFile.ashx?EventID=20001213X29094&AKey=1&RType=Final&IType=FA

[Washeduprotorgypsy]

As yes , the "mom and pop" operation. Third party maintenance. Pop wears all the "regulatory title" hats, mom runs the books and the office. Economic realities dictate that nuisance snags are dealt with in "non textbook ways"
Pop may be a tyrant but he is probably well aware of the economic realities that come along with a fatal accident , remind him of this. That said , if your knowledge on type comes even close to his, run away as fast as you can. If his operational experience far outstrips yours. Listen, but always question.

It's been about 8 years since I last put a AS350 to bed, but as previously mentioned after fresh grease, I remember the swashplate check being a pat at most due to temperature. Seeing as it sounds like your maintenance department is non existent, I'd buy a handheld IR thermometer gun to quantify the temperature value creating your own standardized practice on post shutdown for your own peace of mind. A good tool to have in your "hat rack tool box" when operating in remote environments. If you have a open circuit in a oil temperature gauge, which causes it to peg to the high side. You 'll at least have a clue to the temperatures involved when troubleshooting.

Have fun. Paranoia can save your life, just make sure it doesn't get clinical.

[ericferret]

Temperature is not normally something that is measured from a maintenance point of view. I have never seen any limits mentioned in a manual for a swashplate. Not to say that is definitive.

Normal maintenance action would involve greasing and checking the outgoing grease for contamination, metal or other debris. Other checks would be visual including paint discolourisation, rotational roughness check including break out forces and checking for play.

As too temperature itself. Aeroshell 22 which is a common grease used in swashplates has an upper temperature limit of 204 deg C. So the temperature needs to be under that. The rest depends on what the swashplate is made from. The bearings themselves being steel will stand quite high temperatures. The body could well be alumininum alloy and be more susceptable to temperature. Aluminium alloy for high temperature use falls into between 260-370 deg C. I would hazard a guess that material used for swashplates falls somewhere in that band.

So I would sugest that the grease and it's operating temperature is the limiting factor.

Then Bell 206 engine driveshaft (all steel) does have temperature monitoring. Originally temperature indicating tape and now a band of green primer paint. The paint changes colour from green to brown at about 300 deg C. If you are unfortunate to have suffered a fire affecting the aircraft structure a quick check is to look at the aircraft primer internally, if brown you have a problem. Conductivity checks should be carried out in any case.

[riff_raff]

The link provided by CH above mentions the swashplate bearing should have been greased every 400 hrs per OEM, and every 100 hrs per operator's procedure. The swashplate bearing failure in this case apparently seized due to lack of lubrication/overheating just 1.2 flight hours after the last 100 hr inspection of the swashplate was scheduled per company procedures.

One thing that should be looked for when adding grease to rolling element aircraft bearings is any metallic debris within the old grease pushed out from inside the bearing. A properly designed bearing grease circuit will allow the fresh grease to completely displace the old grease from inside the bearing internal volume, along with any debris, moisture or contaminants. Obviously, this requires a significant amount of grease to be injected at one end, a discharge port at the opposite end to allow the old grease to exit, and an effective set of bearing seals in between to prevent leakage.

In this particular case, it should have been obvious visually if there was sufficient leakage of lubricant past the bearing seals to produce this type of failure within the limited amount of flight time since the last scheduled inspection. The report also states the bearing materials had a blue tint, which would indicate they were heated to a temperature close to 600degF. This is well above the safe operating temperature of conventional bearing steel alloys.

[helicopterray]

Aeroshell 22 which is a common grease used in swashplates

Aeroshell 7 is the only grease authorized for the AS350 swashplate. If it's too hot to the touch, you more than likely don't have enough grease in there. Give it a couple of shots of grease and see what comes out. Or how many pumps it takes before grease starts to come out.

[GrayHorizonsHeli]

You're going to want your maintenance staff to refer to SB 62-00-12 and 62-00-17, although older documents, they will provide guidance on what the definition is on a hot swashplate. Basically they say if you can't keep your hand on it, it's too hot.
If your swashplate is recently overhauled or new bearing installed, there are criteria specifically mentioned in the maintenance documentation that they should be following such as rotational drag.
Experience tells me that if the graphoil is applied to thick (exceeds two light crosscoats and is transparent, then the bearing will be tight and fail the rotation drag check, and thus will run hotter than it should.

So, your determination of "too hot" is based on keeping your hand on the swashplate.
Can't do it, ground the aircraft.

[claudia]

Be careful, checked on my AS355 the other day and bearing was barely warm
to touch after one hour flight!