R-44 Down off Long Island, NY

[ATPMBA]

Appears everyone is safe.

[aa777888]

Looks to be a well executed autorotation to the water with pop-out floats in play after scary noises. No fuss, no muss :D

Helicopter carrying Shane McMahon makes emergency landing in waters off Gilgo Beach | abc7ny.com (http://abc7ny.com/news/helicopter-makes-crash-landing-in-waters-off-gilgo-beach/2233003/)

[AmericanFlyer]

Helicopter carrying WWE exec makes emergency ocean landing | Miami Herald (http://www.miamiherald.com/news/politics-government/national-politics/article162421983.html)

[aa777888]

Dupe thread...

http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/597282-r-44-down-off-long-island-ny.html

[gulliBell]

What surprises me is an R-44 was able to fit Shane McMahon let alone get airborne. The other thing that's a surprise, why rent an R-44 when he can obviously afford a corporate S76 or AW139?

[RINKER]

Nice to see a happy ending and a big well done to the pilot and rescue teams.

👍

R

[Thomas coupling]

Who is Shane MacMahon when he's at home?
Why did the helo have to be out of range of the coast?
Great news that another Robbo has bitten the dust!

[aa777888]

What surprises me is an R-44 was able to fit Shane McMahon let alone get airborne. The other thing that's a surprise, why rent an R-44 when he can obviously afford a corporate S76 or AW139?
Internet says he weighs 230lbs. POH allows up to 300 in a seat. I've flown folks that big. You do notice it, of course ;)

[mickjoebill]

Won't be the last time someone involved with World Wrestling Entertainment takes a dive :)

[Spunk]

@gulliBell
The other thing that's a surprise, why rent an R-44 when he can obviously afford a corporate S76 or AW139?
Some people, though they have a lot of money, are still "down to Earth".

[mftx7jrn]

Well done to all, nice to see a good outcome from a potentially catastrophic event.

[Hot and Hi]

What surprises me is an R-44 was able to fit Shane McMahon let alone get airborne. The other thing that's a surprise, why rent an R-44 when he can obviously afford a corporate S76 or AW139?
Not a pretty sight! What also surprises is that the Robbie makes a loud bang and then looses all power. We had an accident in Africa recently, starting with the same bang and ending with a botched autorotation that took 2 lives.

A Robbie has never done this on me. Wonder what could cause the "bang"?

[Bell_ringer]

Wonder what could cause the "bang"?

Lousy engineering and maintenance?
Common description from those onboard if they survive and those on the ground if they don't.

[Thomas coupling]

It's a Robbo - what do you expect :rolleyes:

[aa777888]

For all you Robinson bashers, a quick search of the NTSB database shows that, for 2017 to date, the following breakdown of accidents by manufacturer:

Sikorsky - 2 (11 fatalities total)
Schweizer - 3
All other types - 6 (2 fatalities total)
Hughes/MD - 8 (6 fatalities total)
Airbus/Eurocopter - 9 (1 fatality total)
Bell - 25 (20 fatalities total)
Robinson - 34 (17 fatalities total)

Bell seems to be holding its own with Robinson in the accident and fatality departments. I did this sort of quick study for a previous year and Bells actually had more accidents and fatalities than Robinsons. And yet they are one of the most respected makes. Should we not be flying Bell helicopters, either? Of course not.

I'm unable to find any data showing hours flown by each make, but it's easy to suspect that both Robinson and Bell are the busiest. Given that Robinsons do the bulk of the training in the US, that's a lot of hours doing high risk stuff. Similarly, it's easy to visualize that Bells are doing the bulk of high risk work (long line, etc.) Busy + risky = more opportunity for accidents.

If anyone had any rate based (hour normalized) statistics for the US, by make, for a recent year (modern Robinsons with modern training, not pre-SFAR 73), I'd be very interested to see them.

[havick]

For all you Robinson bashers, a quick search of the NTSB database shows that, for 2017 to date, the following breakdown of accidents by manufacturer:

Sikorsky - 2 (11 fatalities total)
Schweizer - 3
All other types - 6 (2 fatalities total)
Hughes/MD - 8 (6 fatalities total)
Airbus/Eurocopter - 9 (1 fatality total)
Bell - 25 (20 fatalities total)
Robinson - 34 (17 fatalities total)

Bell seems to be holding its own with Robinson in the accident and fatality departments. I did this sort of quick study for a previous year and Bells actually had more accidents and fatalities than Robinsons. And yet they are one of the most respected makes. Should we not be flying Bell helicopters, either? Of course not.

I'm unable to find any data showing hours flown by each make, but it's easy to suspect that both Robinson and Bell are the busiest. Given that Robinsons do the bulk of the training in the US, that's a lot of hours doing high risk stuff. Similarly, it's easy to visualize that Bells are doing the bulk of high risk work (long line, etc.) Busy + risky = more opportunity for accidents.

If anyone had any rate based (hour normalized) statistics for the US, by make, for a recent year (modern Robinsons with modern training, not pre-SFAR 73), I'd be very interested to see them.

You probably have to put context to the aircraft type and the accident otherwise your stats are kind of irrelevant. E.g. a lot of the Bell accidents are machines doing seriously difficult work where most are the accidents are pilots flying the aircraft into the ground (e.g. Firefighting, EMS) as opposed to the aircraft themselves breaking causing the accident.

[Bell_ringer]

You would also need to put accidents into the context of hours flown.
I think you may find there will be fewer accidents of the other types that use the words "unexpected loss of power" or "unexplained breakup".
You have to give Robinsons their due, they have made helo flying accessible and affordable for many that would otherwise have little alternative but they have been used in ways Frank never intended.
While not relevant to this accident, the sheer number of fatal accidents that happen in seemingly mundane conditions with little explanation other than simply blaming pilot error still raises concerns.

[as350nut]

News report says "crash"" landing should have said plop landing:O

[Thomas coupling]

Bell ringer - on the button!

The Robbo was cheap enough to attract "undesirables" into the industry/sport.
When you put a moderately wealthy moron behind the wheel of a sports car / fast boat / helicopter - you get the expected outcome. To quantify the statement, I am describing a minority here. I'm sure the vast majority of well to do individuals are responsible adults.

My neighbour who owns a hotel a big boat and a bentley bought an R22 - because he could. He bought it part share with his brother. He flew it home to the hotel where it was going to live and parked it on the lawn outside. Weeks later his brother rocks up makes a big fuss about his new toy and climbs into said helicopter only to find that when they are two up and at his weight (19st), the effing thing won't take off???
A blessing in disguise - methinks.
Lots of money makes some people think they can transcend certain standards/limits and do anything.

I see this phenomena as a way of purging society of moron's...........:mad:

I still have one question to ask of this case (pilot obviously not a moron): How far offshore was he and did he really need to be far enough offshore to have to EOL into the water. This could easily have ended up another tragedy.

[aa777888]

You guys are certainly correct about lack of context in the data, however at least it can't be said that Robinsons are dropping out of the sky for any reason at a significantly higher rate than Bells.

And there's no question that lower cost of entry = lower time pilots = higher risk. Which again, speaks to the truism that it is the pilot, not the machine. Blame Robinson pilots if you wish, but don't blame the intrinsic nature of the design.

Just out of curiosity, I took another pass through the data for 2017. It would seem the Bells are indeed hard working, so to speak, while the Robinsons are much more of mixed bag, half working, half "personal/business" type stuff. Obviously there's no data as to the causes yet.

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4305/35254410883_c947f39ae5_o.jpg

[gulliBell]

Robinson helicopters fall out of the sky even with experienced instructors on board. Not necessarily inexperienced pilots through their inexperience pranging them. At least in a Bell light you've got an extra second or 2 on your side to react to sudden engine silence without the rotor stalling.

[aa777888]

I still have one question to ask of this case (pilot obviously not a moron): How far offshore was he and did he really need to be far enough offshore to have to EOL into the water. This could easily have ended up another tragedy.
Total speculation: perhaps he was on the South Shore helicopter route? Possibly below the 1500ft floor of the Class B?

https://farm5.staticflickr.com/4328/35932959521_b6667ac635_o.jpg

[Bell_ringer]

Robinson helicopters fall out of the sky even with experienced instructors on board. Not necessarily inexperienced pilots through their inexperience pranging them. At least in a Bell light you've got an extra second or 2 on your side to react to sudden engine silence without the rotor stalling.

bell also don't have a safety notice telling you to slow down to a crawl if it gets bumpy despite them claiming there's nothing wrong with the rotor design - apart from the coning hinges and being made from yesterday's linguine :E

[aa777888]

bell also don't have a safety notice telling you to slow down to a crawl if it gets bumpy despite them claiming there's nothing wrong with the rotor design - apart from the coning hinges and being made from yesterday's linguine :E
Well, clearly for many the passion of flying outweighs whatever risks there might be. We can outlaw motorcycles, all of GA, and sharp pencils while we're at it. Where do you want to draw the line? Wait, forget I asked that, everyone's opinions on this forum are well known already!

For those whose only hope of affording the mission, or flying at all, is a Robinson, they have a place, or at least some 10,000 units sold (R22 and R44) say they do, or at least say a large number of pilots and owners think whatever the risks or performance limitations are, they are worth it.

[John R81]

No idea what happened in this case, no inside knowledge.

BUT

If you are flying along in an R44 and you get a sudden "bang" - big sound, like someone dropped a bag of tools onto the rear floor - then PLEASE suspect the sprag-clutch. Failure can lead to continued power, but no free-wheeling for split / autorotation, or to a complete loss of drive. The latter is easy to detect, as you auto down. The former is less easy (sometimes there is a partial failure and you can still split engine / rotor; but perhaps not for much longer as failure will continue to one of the two alternatives).

If you suspect the sprag-clutch then you can't check without disassembly, which I think is a distributor action rather than every maintenance provider.


I have seen it, and the disassembled unit is not pretty

[Hot and Hi]

Is there any benefit of popping the floats anyway, even if you autorotate onto a road? Or are these permanent ("fixed utility") floats?

[aa777888]

They are not fixed floats.

[helicopter-redeye]

....look exactly the same as the permanent ones....

Depends if they are Robinson clipper floats or Dart floats. They look different.

The fixed floats are there in flight. The (Robinson or Dart) floats are in packs on the skids till deployed. Assuming they deploy..