Instrument flying; how important is the Attitude Indicator?

[SASless]

Attitude Indicators.....primary or secondary instrument for Instrument Flying?

[LRP]

Attitude Indicators.....primary or secondary instrument for Instrument Flying?

Depends on mode of flight. Normally a supporting instrument. In cruise flight: primary pitch = altimeter, primary turn = heading indicator, primary power = airspeed. (if you remember your Army days...you were only going to have the attitude indicator for the ITO, then it was going to "fail")

[oleary]

Attitude Indicators.....primary or secondary instrument for Instrument Flying?

I did 8 years in the Beaufort Sea and high Arctic in the 212, 61 and 76 much of it at night. When we took off from a rig deck the calls are: PF "coming up" (applies power at least 15% above hover power), PNF calls "20", "40", "rotate" (5% nose down on the AI), PF calls "positive rate" (of climb).

I actually had an AI fail (slow tumble indicating roll right and nose down) with no flag just after rotation during a rig departure at night. I warned my co to get ready to take control if needed as I transitioned to the standby horizon in the centre of the panel.

We also did a lot of night slinging. When training new pilots I can recall a few times when the AI went all Grey then all Black, .... then all Grey again. :hmm: I suggested to the lads that when this happens it is simultaneously "wings level" (on the AI) and "pitch to zero" (on the AI), then evaluate.

Finally, all our engine out on takeoff drills were predicated on "x degrees nose down" (on the AI), accelerate to Vtoss, level (on the AI), then accelerate to Vbroc.

So my vote is "primary".

[Vertical Freedom]

An AH is not required for DayVFR....simply maintain visual reference with the ground at ALL times - nuff said

[paco]

"Attitude Indicators.....primary or secondary instrument for Instrument Flying?"

I was taught that it was useful, but a backup. The Army taught me to fly partial panel (on the Beaver), which was back in the day when they were notoriously unreliable.

Phil

[Anywing]

Attitude Indicators.....primary or secondary instrument for Instrument Flying?

Primary is the attitude of the pilot... The helicopter didn't fly into the clouds, the pilot did. In that situation most of would got a strange feeling of rather being on the ground, turn around and go to plan B, land. Some pilots apperently do not get that feeling. I have experienced pilots wo wanted to fly a Robinson helicopter into an area with forecasted severe turbulence. It was very hard to convince them of not doing that revering to the limitation sector of the afm/poh. People wo wanted to fly a aerial inspection returnflight from homebase in bad weather while our schedule has plenty space and the coming days the weather should be fine. In my opinion it was not commercialy a good idee...CPL... commercial pilot, think of the costst.
As said before, in my opinion it is about decision making, planning, respecting limits, knowing your ability and avoiding commercial pressure or your own pride.

Safe flights to all

[[email protected]]

Surprising attitudes (pun intended) to the use of the AI/AH - it is the primary instrument for instrument flying as anyone who has taught IF will tell you.

It is even more important in RW compared to FW since the platform is so much more unstable.

Yes, you can fly straight and level in the cruise without using the AI/AH but anything that requires manoeuvering with any accuracy needs the AI/AH.

[Georg1na]

Spot on Crab - as anyone who has flown a Whirlwind 7 in cloud will surely attest. AI always the centre of ones scan.

[Vertical Freedom]

Yes, you can fly straight and level in the cruise without using the AI/AH but anything that requires manoeuvring with any accuracy needs the AI/AH.That's amazing, been humping the Cyclic for 28years the last 11 in extreme Mountains & I never ever look at the AH/AI, not once :ooh: yet I gotta do some extreme manoeuvres in some pretty narrow gorges in weather? I was trained that my Airspeed indicator is my stick position (attitude) indicator & I look outside for everything else except, for speed & engine gauges. I never realised I needed an AH for all this flying :eek: always learning but :8

[skadi]

I look outside for everything else except, for speed & engine gauges. I never realised I needed an AH for all this flying :eek: always learning but :8

...and what do you see outside in IMC???

skadi

[Vertical Freedom]

...and what do you see outside in IMC???

skadi

ow You mean approaching beer o'clock??? Well, well before IMC; land, put the machine to bed, then park myself on a comfy chair & stare at the next beer through my special IMC beer goggles :8

[nigelh]

I think VF is playing with you ....!! Flying in his area is all VFR , even in v poor viz . No option to climb . Apart from that ...he is flying a single !

[Heli-Jock]

You should be scared of the IMC. That's what caused the low RRPM horn.
The Pilot was completely disoriented being devoid the visual cues he had relied on since his first ever flight, and did what almost always happens: responded desperately to inaccurate cues (accelerations and noises were all he had left). He almost certainly "pulled the collective to the roof" to arrest a perceived (and possibly real) decent, or when he glimpsed the world rushing up to kill him.

The thread drift is unreal.

IFR/IMC/Gold bars.
It would have been illegal and dangerous for a qualified IFR Pilot in a capable and certified IFR machine to have been where that foolish Pilot was. (In IMC, below LSALT and not on a published procedure.)

The simple fact is the Pilot chose to push on into totally unsuitable meteorological conditions and killed his pax. Criminal negligence. Ultimate price paid by all on board.

"Here Here",,,totally agree and apart from that,,,I have No words for the stupidity of this pilot! :ugh:

[skadi]

I think VF is playing with you ....!! Flying in his area is all VFR , even in v poor viz . No option to climb . Apart from that ...he is flying a single !

I know, and I am absolutely with him concerning his flying in Nepal. But he quoted [email protected], who surely talked about flying in IMC and there you should use an AH

skadi

[[email protected]]

However, if the mountain flying is extreme and in poor weather, the AI is still an important instrument as it helps you avoid false horizons caused by the slope and strata of the mountains which can be very confusing.

Or you can just pump the cyclic, ignore the AoB and its effect on your power requirements........................

[Georg1na]

Spot on again Crab. The AH in clag is your life saver................VF I admire your flying career enormously but if you have never looked at your AH you are a very brave man - and have never flown a Whirlwind 7 in cloud!!!;)

[SuperF]

i have never looked at an AH either. none of my helis have one...

[Vertical Freedom]

i have never looked at an AH either. none of my helis have one...

I'm wid You SuperF...only the AH 's here are not maintained to an IFR standard so it'd be damn dangerous to trust one. I doubt any DayVFR machines AH is maintained :} I'm sure Your flying in the NZ Mountains that too have some crappy weather :*

Hey crab......weather in the Himalayas is extremely ****ty, layered & very dodgy 9 months of the year, stooging about in valleys that have ridge-lines up at 25,000' whilst flying down at 10,000' & yet, I've never been IMC ever :ooh: I've yet to use the AH & yes one eye is always glued to the FLI, another eye to the IAS & my third eye is always scanning outside :8

Stay Happy...Stay VMC :cool:

[Vertical Freedom]

Please correct me if I'm wrong; the AH is not a required instrument legally for DayVFR? :confused:

Once You've pressed on for far too far & Your thinking that an unserviced AH in a VFR machine, without an IF procedure, below LSA/MSA is gonna save Your arse in Mountain soup.....you'll end up like this gung-ho Pilot this sad thread is about :}

Stay up right & stay within limits :cool:

[JimL]

This thread probably needs to be split into two: the discussion about this incident and operations in VFR; and, another on the important issue of why the scan of a helicopter pilot differs from that of his fixed-wing cousin.

In a recent RAeS presentation of eye-scanning, it was shown that some helicopter pilots (both experienced and not-so-experienced) were not using the AH as the fulcrum of their scan for flight in IMC. It is important to see this not as a fault on their part but as an issue that needs to be understood.

Jim

[paco]

"Please correct me if I'm wrong; the AH is not a required instrument legally for DayVFR?"

Not under operational rules in Europe or Canada, but there may be engineering rules that require it - a 212 guy got caught out by that in Canada.

Phil

[[email protected]]

Jim, some of that might be due to the prevalence of glass cockpits, since the old selective radial scan, where you had to move your head to encompass all the analogue instrument scattered across the cockpit, can now be replaced by a 'big picture' type scan where the PFD only requires a fixed gaze at the attitude with the remainder being picked up on peripheral vision.

[JimL]

Hi Crab,

Yes, that is correct but the 'heat maps' provided by the eye-tracking system did not even include the horizon for some of the pilots. There must be a reason, and that reason should be understood because it might require an adjustment in the configuration of the screen or more education on the the optimum scanning pattern (do we educate pilots on the necessary scanning pattern for glass screens? do we specify, precisely, what should be monitored by the PF or the PM when hand flying? Is there an optimum distribution of the monitoring duties of each of the pilots when the autopilot is engaged?) All questions that should not go unanswered.

The comment was made at the conference that if neither pilot included the horizon within the scan, a critical departure from the flight path could occur and might be missed.

If there is a difference in the required scanning patterns between a stable fixed-wing and an unstable helicopter, what does that imply?

Jim

[[email protected]]

One of the classic student mistakes in IF is 'instrument chasing' where any one or two instruments are concentrated on to the detriment of the AI - it is obvious to the instructor and will inevitably end up with inaccuracies or unusual attitudes as the task gets more demanding.

A good instrument pilot will base his scan around the AI but we all get lazy sometimes, especially when the workload and arousal levels are low.

When things get gnarly then it is those with the AI centered scan who will retain accuracy and safety and the instrument chasers will probably scare themselves.

Despite VF's dismissal of its value, the use of the AI for mountain flying has long been taught in the UK mil - perhaps because the skills learned from a visual/IF balance are even more important when you fly the mountains at night.

[Vertical Freedom]

Hey Crab.....I hear You Mate, I'm not negating the value of an AH, for IMC & for NVMC it is a life saving necessity. Wouldn't leave home without it!!! :ok:

For DayVMC under VFR in the Mountains it is a distraction from looking outside if Pilots wanna be chasing it & in these unique conditions eyes outside is where You wanna be, to stay safe ;)

Heaven forbid, I'd never wanna be up in these Mountains at night :O

Happy Landings :)

[Non-PC Plod]

VF - surely you must scan the AI from time to time even when you are VMC, because there must be a lot of the time you dont have a natural horizon in your environment? (In that a level horizon is rarely visible unless you are above all that massive terrain)

[John Eacott]

Jim, some of that might be due to the prevalence of glass cockpits, since the old selective radial scan, where you had to move your head to encompass all the analogue instrument scattered across the cockpit, can now be replaced by a 'big picture' type scan where the PFD only requires a fixed gaze at the attitude with the remainder being picked up on peripheral vision.

Agree, but surely 'move your head' is a typing error. Instrument scan should be eye movements only whether radial or orbital, head moves can start vestibular canal upsets; the occasional glance over to Ts & Ps on a large cockpit panel should be the only conscious head movement.

Going way OT here from the OP.

[ShyTorque]

On the subject of pilots being put under pressure to fly, here in Ireland we had a recent controversy when a senior Government Minister pressurised an Air Corps pilot to fly when fog was forecast. And to compound the matter his representative phoned up the pilot again to 'rub it in' when the fog didn't materialise. Varadkar defends Coveney?s call to pilot over cancelled flight (http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/varadkar-defends-coveney-s-call-to-pilot-over-cancelled-flight-1.3144592)
The Minister's excuse was "I'm a 'hands on' type of guy". You couldn't make it up.

I've had that happen to me a few times. I couldn't take off because of unforecast early morning fog. I was castigated for not informing the passenger the flight would be cancelled, the night before.

I've also been called a "jobsworth" to my face when insisting I stuck to the regulations when using a private landing site (no ops after dark, the passenger wanted to come back well after last light).

And I've been called a "chicken" by the owner of a listed building when I decided not to land in his confined area of a garden because it was downwind in 25-30 kts of wind. Flying into wind to land to get in there would have involved very low flight over his house roof and would probably have lifted tiles or worse.

You do need broad shoulders for this job.

[jellycopter]

You do need broad shoulders for this job.

Or thick skin!

[[email protected]]

Agree, but surely 'move your head' is a typing error. Instrument scan should be eye movements only whether radial or orbital, head moves can start vestibular canal upsets; the occasional glance over to Ts & Ps on a large cockpit panel should be the only conscious head movement. You could do that on a Gazelle but the Wessex, Lynx and Sea King all required some head movement to scan the instruments, especially if you were on standbys.

[ShyTorque]

Or thick skin!
Preferably both!

[John Eacott]

You could do that on a Gazelle but the Wessex, Lynx and Sea King all required some head movement to scan the instruments, especially if you were on standbys.

Really? The basic T is essentially the same in all of them and eye movement did it for me, although I didn't experience the Lynx. Even my later life with graduated lenses didn't require any head movement for analogue instrument scan in many different civilian types. The standby AH in the Sea King is almost touching the main AH, and when on the HAS1 I 'pioneered' the adjusting of the engine instruments so that when in normal operating range the needles were all vertical and easily checked. Anyway, that's what the left hand seat is for, isn't it?

We'll have to agree to disagree.

http://glostransporthistory.visit-gloucestershire.co.uk/images/Air_Sea_King_XZ589_cockpit_starboard.jpg

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/originals/24/c8/f7/24c8f7e9682ee91e14739cc1a670468a.jpg



But we do agree that the AH is a primary instrument for IFR :ok:

[megan]

But we do agree that the AH is a primary instrument for IFRAnd to think this was the typical IMC panel of yesteryear.

Someone mention limited panel?

[Vertical Freedom]

Hey Non-PC Plod.....Brother the DayVFR machines have no requirement to have the AH serviced to an IF standard, they topple often & are just not reliable. I wouldn't trust them. As SuperF mentioned many NZ machines have no AH & fly in the Mountains! Rarely am I above the massive terrain so the technique I was taught by Grand Master Mountain Pilots is that Your attitude is determined by Your Airspeed which is based on the stick position, I was taught You don't look at the horizon to determine speed nor attitude, wouldn't work very well here surrounded by these hills anyways, only the IAS. So You could say my AH is actually my IAS :) this method has been working fine thus far :ok:

AH sure is the primary instrument for IFR & NVFR = YES :)

Cheers it's beer o'clock

[[email protected]]

VF - the problem I have with that technique is that your attitude will tell you what is about to happen to the speed whereas the IAS only tells you where it is at that moment in time.

You must end up constantly chasing speed with cyclic movement, especially in gusty conditions.

Attitude for airspeed, lever for height:)

John - I think you might have moved your head a bit more than you think - its not a lot, and not enough to cause vestibular issues, but I think it is unlikely that your head remained absolutely still during your scan.:ok:

[Vertical Freedom]

G'day Crab........really I don't have a problem with this technique & Mountain Pilots I know also don't, it works. I am not chasing an airspeed. The stick is fixed to the side of the thigh & politely holds the airspeed exactly where I want it leaving most of my time with eyes outside rather than staring at the AH which in this part of the World not maintained so cannot be relied on? :)

Cheers

[Fareastdriver]

Who nicked the GPS on that old instruments panel?

[Self loading bear]

Who nicked the GPS on that old instruments panel?
Charles himselve after landing at Le Bourget.

Cheers SLB

[SASless]

In the way of War Stories....re instrument flying in helicopters I have this to offer.

As part of my US Army Helicopter Instrument flying course at that wonderful Alabama Resort area known as Fort Rucker....using Huey's....we at some point had to enjoy a flight into Knox Heliport by executing an NDB Approach with overhead Hold.

Piece of cake right.....No Gyros, Fixed Card, unstablized single engine helicopter with no RadAlt.

That it was in IMC proved to me my Instructor was near suicidal and had real intent to take two others with him in the process.

That it was I doing the flying....is what convinced me of that.

Artificial Horizons are very nice kit...and have their uses....but they in my definition (if not in the usual context/definition) are "Secondary" instruments.

I am of the school.....that a single Attitude Indicator is a necessity but a Backup is pure Gold should the first one lay down on you while in IMC conditions.

A test I used while Instructing Instrument Flight.....was to use Unusual Attitude Recovery Exercises to determine what technique the Trainee used for controlling the aircraft.

I did the usual, Head down, Eyes Closed, wiggle the sticks all about and add some varying kinds of G Loads.....but that was just to disguise my setting a Five Degree wing low attitude on the Student's Attitude Indicator without being seen.

Then I gave control back while in a very minor non-level, out of yaw trim condition and sat back and observed the recovery to level flight.....and in some cases could have run out fuel waiting for that to happen.

Some Pilots very quickly sorted out the Attitude Indicator was out of whack as they were flying the other instruments and using the AI as a Reference. They would set wings level, pitch attitude level....and then correct for the resulting variation and in a cycle or two....perhaps three...sorted it out.

Others....as mentioned NEVER would have gotten settled down.

As to moving one's Noggin about while "Scanning"....in the scenario above....looking at the Standby...and other Pilot's AI worked well too.

Just looking at two AI's....each showing something different...does not immediately tell you which one is the liar.

In some of the Accident Reports we read about now and then where airliners smack the ground at warp speed because of a loss of control due to instrument failure...it makes you wonder why the crew with at least three AI's could not sort out the problem very quickly.

[Sir Niall Dementia]

SAS;

I spent most of my early career two crew, there was a natural tendency to turn slightly towards your colleague when everything was relaxed. It was brought home to me by a very senior training captain when he pointed out that I had just flown 80% of a solid IFR trip looking at his instruments. I had never noticed that habit forming.

A few weeks later I had an FD failure on my side which took some time to notice because my attention was on the other side. Now I fly a mix of single and multi crew, and age has set in, but I very much agree with you, while the AI has the primary function, if you don't have speed and altitude nailed the AI can be letting you down very subtly and steering you to a whole can of worms.

SND

[Fareastdriver]

Recovery without using the AI was standard when I was taught to fly on instruments. The reason was simple; it was vacuum driven and when it reached 60 degrees of pitch or bank it hit the internal stops, got lost and toppled. Until manually re-erected it just waved woefully as it drifted from stop to stop.

You learnt to recover, even from spins, using limited panel; airspeed, rate of turn, RCDI and altimeter. Firstly in radial engine fixed wing and then later, without the spins, in radial engine helicopters but you wouldn't catch me trying to fly IMC with just an AI.

[[email protected]]

The AI is the primary instrument not the only one hence the selective radial scan where you adjust the attitude and then scan the other instruments to see if it has the desired effect.

Just how do you recover from an unusual attitude in a helo without reference to the AI? Wings level has to be the first action to prevent further problems and you cross check with the standby AI to make sure the main hasn't toppled and got you into the UA/UP in the first place.

Sasless' trick of offsetting the pilots AI during the positioning for the UP/UA has been used for many years to the great amusement of many QHIs and IREs:)

[Geoffersincornwall]

Crab

The two guys who set up the first Sea King sim back in 1970 (Test pilot Peter Harper and Jet Jock Peter Jago) did a lot of work on the question of scanning. It was before the technology to track eye movement was available so each would spend time lying on the interseat console whilst monitoring the pilot flying's eye movement. They were astonished to find that experienced pilots used peripheral vision to a far greater extent than previously realised.

The problem with today's flats screen digital displays is that many pilots coming from older generation helicopters have a huge problem with re-programming the brain to look, recognise, calculate and respond because with peripheral vision the brain relies on the needle position on a dial. No dial, no needle, just a number and your scanning process has to be modified as well as reprogramming your brain to deal with numbers.

G

[[email protected]]

Hi geoffers - yes I have found the same thing in transitioning to PFDs from analogue instruments - in particular the tape for the altimeter is almost a constant stream of numbers and, unless you have a DA line on your desired altitude, it is much easier to miss a deviation than with an altimeter needle moving round a clock face.

[Sir Niall Dementia]

Crab;

If the altimeter is a continuous stream of numbers might I respectfully suggest a few sessions on effects of controls and secondary effects from Jellycopter....................................:E

SND

[MightyGem]

The problem with today's flats screen digital displays is that many pilots coming from older generation helicopters have a huge problem with re-programming the brain to look, recognise, calculate and respond because with peripheral vision the brain relies on the needle position on a dial. No dial, no needle, just a number and your scanning process has to be modified as well as reprogramming your brain to deal with numbers.
Yes, I would often trim the cyclic the wrong way when trying to adjust the airspeed by a few knots when on instruments. :hmm:

[Georg1na]

Gosh - cyclic trim! You were a lucky bunny to have that luxury.......:O:O

[SASless]

As a US Army Instructor Pilot....I learned to fly the Student's Instruments when performing a demonstration of a maneuver as that is what he was looking at while you did the Demo.

In some cases you had to use an index at the side of an instrument rather than the top as you could not see the normal index.

With a bit of practice it became quite normal to do that.

[SASless]

As a US Army Instructor Pilot/Standardization Pilot....I learned to fly the Student's Instruments when performing a demonstration of a maneuver as that is what he was looking at while you did the Demo.

In some cases you had to use an index at the side of an instrument rather than the top as you could not see the normal index.

With a bit of practice it became quite normal to do that.

[[email protected]]

Yes Sasless - the same applied on Wessex, Lynx and Sea King:ok:

[EESDL]

AI is 'GOD' - for at least 90% of the time whilst IF and without AP.
Never forget my first instructor teaching me the radial scan by saying if you are not looking at the AI then you should be - helped me return my gaze back to the middle before something ugly happened!

[jellycopter]

?.......helped me return my gaze back to the middle before something ugly happened!

EESDL, I think something ugly happened about 20 years before that, and I blame your parents!

[EESDL]

j(c)
When my parents eventually owned-up to having raised me they said I was a result of 'immaculate conception' - some carpenter dude was in town at the time.
How is your garden furniture holding up?
;-)

[Anywing]

Basic rule for both VFR or IFR flying is: Attitude + Power = Performance. Which also can be seen as: Natural or Artificial Horizon + Power Gauge = Flight Instruments. In more detail that will be: Pitch and Bank + Power Gauge = Altimeter/Airspeed Indicator (primary for pitch) and Compass/Directional Gyro/Turn Indicator (primary for bank) + known corresponding Airspeed/Climb Rate (vs. selected power). When left and right is not equal there is something wrong. Crosscheck for the fals one. All instruments are supporting, do not rely on a sole one.

Flying explained by the hand of mathematics, ain't that exciting ;-)

[Paul Cantrell]

AI is 'GOD' - for at least 90% of the time whilst IF and without AP.
Never forget my first instructor teaching me the radial scan by saying if you are not looking at the AI then you should be

Interesting discussion, especially the Army guys talking about de-emphasizing the attitude indicator.

When I learned to fly instruments in the early 90s there were a lot of vacuum pump failures happening (I think the technology of the vacuum pumps had changed from wet to dry and the technology wasn't solid yet). So, as a dumb student, I evolved this rather stupid idea that I would de-emphasize the AI, and in that way I wouldn't lose control when I lost vacuum (of course, this is in airplanes, all the helicopters I've flown were all electric AI).

The thing was, I flew lousy on instruments.

Having flown with some very experienced airline pilots I eventually realized the folly and finally put major emphasis on the attitude indicator. No surprise that suddenly my IMC flying got much better. My only regret is that we don't have giant attitude indicators like airliners used to have! Or at least, the IFR B206L3 I fly doesn't. I just put on my old man reading glasses and lean closer to make the AI appear bigger ;-)

I recently had a discussion of Control and Performance (which I teach) versus Primary and Supporting with the senior fixed wing instructor at our school. I was really surprised that he talked about liking Primary & Supporting and de-emphasizing the attitude indicator so that loss of AI is a non-issue. He's non-military, and a very good instructor, but I didn't find his arguments convincing. I'm still of the opinion that using the AI allows you to make extremely small corrections and therefore fly extremely accurately. Perhaps it's the difference of flying electric AIs - I don't worry as much about a loss of control from an AI going bad (you pick it up pretty darn quick in the cross check).

One thing I always carry with me is one of those rubber instrument covers that we torture our students with. The reason I carry it with me is that I find it very difficult to ignore an AI which has failed. I'm so used to the scan that every time I return to the AI (that has "failed") I start to roll/pitch to correct before I remember that the AI is bad. So, I cover it up and that forces me to use the standby (which is just left of the six-pack).

On the humorous side, I've heard the scan called a "music scan" because you should keep a pace of scan going "and-a-one, and-a-two" each time you leave one instrument for the next instrument in the scan. I'm old enough to remember my grandparents watching Lawrence Welk (an American band leader with a distinctive German/European accent), so that whenever I'm instrument flying I hear Lawrence Welk inside my head!
:confused:

[EN48]

My only regret is that we don't have giant attitude indicators like airliners used to have!

We do! (Although not electromechanical like airliners used to have.) This and similar avionics suites now available in several certified light turbine (VFR only) singles, including B505, E480B-G, R66 (in a less complete form), Agusta 119, B407GXP, and others coming. Typically include synthetic vision, HTAWS, ADS-B In & Out, active traffic sensor, Nexrad wx, geo-referenced approach plates, and other capabilities, and in some cases, an autopilot capable of flying coupled approaches. In the case of the 505 and 407GXP, there is no longer a standard steam gauge option. However, slow in coming to the helo world. In the fixed wing world, this equipment has been available in even the Cessna 172 for 10+ years. As an instrument rated pilot for almost forty years, after flying this setup for the last three years, I have no desire to return to the good old days!

http://www.pprune.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=2589&stc=1&d=1500335177

[SASless]

I would feel like a Dog watching Television if I had a panel like that to look at.:E

[EN48]

I would feel like a Dog watching Television if I had a panel like that to look at

Well ... it doesn't do TV, but it does have SiriusXM radio/music for the dog's listening pleasure. You can listen to Rush while you fly! :ok: