alpine long line rescue gone fatally wrong

[Reely340]

English: Fall by rope recovery: Cause unclear (http://www.online-translator.com/siteTranslation/autolink/?direction=au-en&template=auto&sourceURL=http://steiermark.orf.at/news/stories/2847351/)
Source Absturz bei Seilbergung: Ursache unklar - steiermark.ORF.at (http://steiermark.orf.at/news/stories/2847351/)


Can such "variable cable" be disengaged midflight?

Does "human cargo certified" lifting equipment feature a similar mechanical discharge lever at the cyclic
as does the S-300C I fly regularly? (It has an external cargo hook mounted at the bottom)

I was under the impression that human rescue "long-line" equipment is always attached abreast the CoG,
to the side of the fuselage, high up, so that the person rescued can be reeled in to floor height, by coiling up the cable electircally.

Does a side-of-fuselage rescue system feature a quick release mechanism?

Could it be that this tragedy in fact was some form of pilot error?

Is it legal to rescue people with a cargo type external hook right at CoG below the fuselage?
That would mean it would be legal to carry human load dangling on the long line, constantly exposed to both
rotor downwash and forward airspeed, all the way from site of mishap till landing zone, due to unavailability of "reel in function",
as the cable is attached to the belly of the a/c.


edit: I discovered that apparently belly hooks are ok for human rescue:
http://imgl.krone.at/Bilder/2017/06/04/5a7585916ec24e8f6f275f9c8342eed4__apad7c2_tmp_jpg.jpg
N.B.
the failed rescue was attempted by a federal police helicopter "OE-BX.." (B federal, X rotorcraft)
and not a SAR company.

edit:
still curious: does a belly hook long-line system feature a mid-flight reel in capability?

[skadi]

English: Fall by rope recovery: Cause unclear (http://www.online-translator.com/siteTranslation/autolink/?direction=au-en&template=auto&sourceURL=http://steiermark.orf.at/news/stories/2847351/)
Source Absturz bei Seilbergung: Ursache unklar - steiermark.ORF.at (http://steiermark.orf.at/news/stories/2847351/)


Can such "variable cable" be disengaged midflight?

Does "human cargo certified" lifting equipment feature a similar mechanical discharge lever at the cyclic
as does the S-300C I fly regularly? (It has an external cargo hook mounted at the bottom)

I was under the impression that human rescue "long-line" equipment is always attached abreast the CoG,
to the side of the fuselage, high up, so that the person rescued can be reeled in to floor height, by coiling up the cable electircally.

Does a side-of-fuselage rescue system feature a quick release mechanism?

Could it be that this tradegy in fact was some form of pilot error?

Is it legal to rescue people with a cargo type external hook right at CoG below the fuselage?
That would mean it would be legal to carry human load dangling on the long line, constantly exposed to both
rotor downwash and forward airspeed, all the way from site of mishap till landing zone, due to unavailability of "reel in function",
as the cable is attached to the belly of the a/c.

I think, this should answer your questions.

https://www.verticalmag.com/features/highvaluecargo/

skadi

[Reely340]

Thx, very interesting read! :ok:
On a side note: how does the system prevent the "cargo" from being windmilled by forward flight ?

Back to OT:
Sadly there is a high chance that the real reason for the mishap will never be published, especially as a police helos is involved.
In 2011 a "border controlling" police helo crashed into the Achensee on an sunny day, at close to Vne.
First reason was "bird strike". Due to lack of cadavers, feathers and witnesses having seen birds,
next try was "flicker vertigo" + epilleptic seizure, in a four bladed helo (wrong flicker freq) piloted by some w/o any history of such issue.

The transport Ministery hinted towards "cowboy flaying" on "sightseeing" or "alpine cabin-taxi" flights.
The Ministry of interior (opertor of police a/c) knee-jerkingly opposed.

Then Austrian Ministry ping pong sets in, denying existence of crash-analysis..:
Ministry suppresses security reports on flight accidents (http://www.online-translator.com/siteTranslation/autolink/?direction=au-en&template=auto&sourceURL=https://kurier.at/chronik/oesterreich/ministerium-unterdrueckt-sicherheits-berichte-ueber-flugunfaelle/228.292.848)

Remember the 750kg bucket full wil concrete dropped onto an occupied cable-car cabin in 2005 (9 died)?
Still no accident report, investigation closed!

We are a Banana Republic of accident investigation:
"The ICAO found out in a topical report that the quality of the investigation of flight accidents in Austria behind those of countries like Botswana, Iran, Sudan, Russia or even Egypt limps behind. And it comes even more badly: Already in 2008 there was a similarly destructive result. At that time was of Doris Bures at the head of the department. A lot was promised afterwards, the flight investigation place was renamed, laws were reformed, but the acting people remained the same ones. Austria lies meanwhile far away from all European standards (even behind Greece or Bulgaria) – just still a thin percent point before Vietnam, Armenia or the Caribbean state Antigua and Barbuda."

[Flyting]

Reely340:
It appears that the rope snapped for some reason!
HEC - human external cargo is carried on a double cargo hook system. 1 rope connected to a Y piece which is connected to 2 seperate cargo hooks so that if 1 accidentally opens, the 2nd is there as backup.

[Reely340]

Police says the found fragments of the rope still attached to the helicopter.
They claim the rope was up to the taks (not old/brittle), the hook system is claimed to function properly,
current suggestion is towards "weather" and challenging environment of narrow gorge:
local downdraft induced descent + rupture after contract with mountain.

Absturz bei Seilbergung: Seil dürfte gerissen sein - steiermark.ORF.at (http://steiermark.orf.at/news/stories/2847527/)

[noooby]

When I read variable length rope or cable, I'm thinking Rescue Hoist, not long line.

Do we know if this was long line, or hoist???

[Reely340]

Well, w/o saying the picture shows the involved helo, what type of HEC is that
http://imgl.krone.at/Bilder/2017/06/04/5a7585916ec24e8f6f275f9c8342eed4__apad7c2_tmp_jpg.jpg

Can the pilot "reel upwards" the external load with a setup like that?

With the cable length depicted I severely doubt that they could have lifted the hikers out of a narrow canyon with the system shown, unless it provides a way to winch them up from way further down.

[500guy]

Well, w/o saying the picture shows the involved helo, what type of HEC is that
http://imgl.krone.at/Bilder/2017/06/04/5a7585916ec24e8f6f275f9c8342eed4__apad7c2_tmp_jpg.jpg

Can the pilot "reel upwards" the external load with a setup like that?

With the cable length depicted I severely doubt that they could have lifted the hikers out of a narrow canyon with the system shown, unless it provides a way to winch them up from way further down.

That is a dual hook fixed line system, no way to reel it up or down. THough they could have been using linger lines

[Feef]

Hiker, rescuer plunge to death in Austria as helicopter line gives way | Reuters (http://www.reuters.com/article/us-austria-hikers-idUSKBN18W19F)

[KiwiNedNZ]

The last link talks about THREE people on the hoist/HEC. For those that do this, would that weight be too much for it or is that normal.

[hueyracer]

From what i heard and read, it was a dual hook long line set up...so three people hanging from the hook should be no problem for the helicopter.

Reading about downdraft and the load crashing into the rock, it wohld explain why the rope broke..the question is-what caused the height loss?


From all i read so far, there was nothing wrong with the system itself....
Three possible explanations i could come up with so far (guessing, of course):
-Pilots error
-Strong winds (leading to pilots error)
-line trapped (see above).


Really interested in the cause-might be some interesting "lessons learned" in there...

[skadi]

When I read variable length rope or cable, I'm thinking Rescue Hoist, not long line.

Do we know if this was long line, or hoist???

Long line, no hoist! They can fit variable lenghts of the longline.

skadi

[sherpa]

That is a dual hook fixed line system, no way to reel it up or down. THough they could have been using linger lines



The system we’re using it’s possible to rappel down. On top of the 60 m fixed lines we're using an additional variable line up to 80 m extension for rescues in steep narrow Canyons or rock faces. Total length 140 m and afterwards there is no way to hoist them up; you got to fly them out. The Police is using a similar system

[Groquik]

i'm not an expert on the system but that the picture that google delivers for "variable tau"

http://www.bergrettung-salzburg.at/uploads/pics/tomferner1jpg.jpg

I can imagine that pulling on the left "pulley/brake" (?) will let you down, using the rope stored in the yellow bag


(picture taken from here (http://www.bergrettung-salzburg.at/news/news-detail/flugrettung-training-der-flugretter/))

[havick]

The whole idea of human external cargo on a longline is just a poor mans hoist.

[RVDT]

The whole idea of human external cargo on a longline is just a poor mans hoist.

On that point do you have any idea of the number of SB's and AD's on the existing hoist? Possibly actually a better option.

Many operators use the hoist attachment with a static line - the hoist is painful to keep serviceable.

The only real advantage of a hoist is over water - otherwise.............there is a thing at the top that goes up and down as required - aka a helicopter.

[hueyracer]

A hoist is useless in some parts of the mountains-small canyons or crevasses (?) Too deep for a hoist cable...

And a hoist extension is sometimes also not possible due to weight / center of gravity limitations.


Standard procedure is to land close by, get the rescue peorson onto the line and long line him into position, pull the people out and land nearby again to get them on board..

[KernelPanic]

The whole idea of human external cargo on a longline is just a poor mans hoist.

Yes and no. There are operators that use a combination of Static line and hoist - particularly inshore coastal rescue. The static line combined with helocasting is a much quicker form of rescue for someone drowning. Hence why they havent switched completely to hoist - they can effect their rescue faster - in time critical situations.

[Pozidrive]

The last link talks about THREE people on the hoist/HEC. For those that do this, would that weight be too much for it or is that normal.


It says two on the hoist, with three falling. One person left on the ground, knocked over by the other two?

[Pozidrive]

i'm not an expert on the system but that the picture that google delivers for "variable tau"

http://www.bergrettung-salzburg.at/uploads/pics/tomferner1jpg.jpg

I can imagine that pulling on the left "pulley/brake" (?) will let you down, using the rope stored in the yellow bag


(picture taken from here (http://www.bergrettung-salzburg.at/news/news-detail/flugrettung-training-der-flugretter/))


Yes, looks like a standard rope access "descender" in the right hand.

[havick]

Yes and no. There are operators that use a combination of Static line and hoist - particularly inshore coastal rescue. The static line combined with helocasting is a much quicker form of rescue for someone drowning. Hence why they havent switched completely to hoist - they can effect their rescue faster - in time critical situations.

Flown both types of ops in varying locations and types, still stand by my opinion, and it's only an opinion.

My experience of longline HEC has taught me that those programs are generally a result of clients not wanting to pay for the cost of hoist, crews and appropriate aircraft for task so find a myriad of reasons to justify flying people around on a longline.

More of a concern than just the hoist vs longline HEC argument is the stress in the patient being exposed for a much longer period of time on the hook (physical exposure/stress, not engine failure exposure considerations).

It's hard to argue the point that a hoist doesn't give you a lot more options operationally. Longline HEC is no different to flying around any other external load except the fact you have multiple attach points.

Just my 2c, like I mentioned it's just my opinion and remember opinions are like assholes, everyone has one.

[AIRRESQU2]

The whole idea of human external cargo on a longline is just a poor mans hoist.

havick is right on. Goodrich external hoist on the AW-139 has about 280 feet or 85 meters of usable cable. Whats not to like? Speed control, rugged, 600 pound load. Good hoist operators can put that rescue hoist hook anywhere.

[[email protected]]

Havick and Airresqu2 :ok::ok::ok:

[jimf671]

The subject of HEC accident rates on longline has been a leading concern at the ICAR Air Commission for many years.

[blackdog7]

jimf671 - can you expand on your comment and please elaborate on who ICAR is?
Crab, Havick and Airresqu2 - exactly what I would say if I wasn't proficient at vertical reference operations.

[havick]

jimf671 - can you expand on your comment and please elaborate on who ICAR is?
Crab, Havick and Airresqu2 - exactly what I would say if I wasn't proficient at vertical reference operations.

How's your vertical reference skills at night time down in a valley full of wires with a 200' longline?

Can you provide examples of operators or organizations doing night time HEC longline ops?

All I'm trying to say is that hoisting offers way more operational advantages. HEC has always been the cheap way of doing things.

[jimf671]

International Commission for Alpine Rescue. (http://www.alpine-rescue.org/)
Four commissions: Terrestrial, Avalanche, Air and Medical.

First business of annual Air Commission meetings is usually air accidents in SAR around the world during the previous year. Often there are also presentations relating to specific accidents or near misses (sometimes presented by the aircrew concerned or close colleagues). Other subject areas are research into failure, regulatory changes, and new equipment.

HEC accidents are a continuing concern.


ICAR International Commission for Alpine Rescue (http://www.alpine-rescue.org/)
ICAR Air Commission (http://www.alpine-rescue.org/xCMS5/WebObjects/nexus5.woa/wa/icar?menuid=1076)

[500guy]

How's your vertical reference skills at night time down in a valley full of wires with a 200' longline?

Can you provide examples of operators or organizations doing night time HEC longline ops?

All I'm trying to say is that hoisting offers way more operational advantages. HEC has always been the cheap way of doing things.

If we are talking exclusively about rescue operations the hoist has a lot of advantages, listed above.

Most of the fixed line HEC in the US is not rescue, put powerline construction. There are at least 50 aircraft doing fixed line HEC for powerline maintenance and construction every day in the USA. About 80% of those are MD 500s with the occasional, MD600, BH407, AS350, AS355, or EC135.

It is all done vertical reference, no spotter. No variable line length.

There are a lot of advantages to doing it this way, both in safety and efficiency the difficulty is that it requires an extremely proficient VR pilot.

Anyone who has achieved their private pilots licence knows you have to be one step ahead of the helicopter. If you are relying on spotter to relay directions to you that inst possible.

[RVDT]

jimf671 - can you expand on your comment and please elaborate on who ICAR is?

bd7 - ICAR ? International Commission for Alpine Rescue (http://www.alpine-rescue.org)

[havick]

If we are talking exclusively about rescue operations the hoist has a lot of advantages, listed above.

Most of the fixed line HEC in the US is not rescue, put powerline construction. There are at least 50 aircraft doing fixed line HEC for powerline maintenance and construction every day in the USA. About 80% of those are MD 500s with the occasional, MD600, BH407, AS350, AS355, or EC135.

It is all done vertical reference, no spotter. No variable line length.

There are a lot of advantages to doing it this way, both in safety and efficiency the difficulty is that it requires an extremely proficient VR pilot.

Anyone who has achieved their private pilots licence knows you have to be one step ahead of the helicopter. If you are relying on spotter to relay directions to you that inst possible.

I'm talking exclusively rescue ops.

HEC longline makes perfect sense and works perfectly well for powerline ops.

[EMSSAR]

The ICAR Air Rescue committee is focused on improving the safety of all air rescue operations including HEC and Hoist operations. Since inception the Air Rescue Commission has invested significant effort to review air rescue incidents that involve both HEC and Hoist.


Below is a quote from the ICAR Air Rescue Committee that describes its charter.


The ICAR Air Rescue Commission consists of experts, pilots, HEMS crew members and hoist operators from all ICAR member organizations. The ICAR Air Rescue Commission tasks, goals and targets are the same as for ICAR: sharing our experience, learning from others and working on prevention.


The commission is run by a president assisted by a vice-president. The Commission President is a member of the ICAR Executive Board. Usually the Air Rescue Commission meets once a year during the annual ICAR Convention.


The ICAR Air Rescue Commission has to deal with different systems, different rules, different operations and therefore the commission is used to work on best practices more than hard rules. The Commission takes its benefits from the exchange of the members and other international entities.


The knowledge and experience amongst the members of the ICAR Air Rescue Commission is huge and the commission provides expertise all over the world. The database of the commission is for sure one of the largest in the world concerning Mountain Air Rescue. The ICAR Air Rescue Commission publishes recommendations available to all via the ICAR website.


ICAR ? International Commission for Alpine Rescue (http://www.alpine-rescue.org/xCMS5/WebObjects/nexus5.woa/wa/icar?menuid=1076&rubricid=267&articleid=648)

[jimf671]

Good to see you here EMSSAR!