End of FY2016-17

[lospilotos]

So, now the EK financial year has come to a close. Can't we have a little debate about the results and bonus (a.k.a profit share) just for laughs?

Will the figures be in red or black? Will there be a discretionary token payout as has happened before when the target wasn't met. What will the salary review look like?

Go ahead!

[Monarch Man]

Judging by the lack of loading staff, crew buses and passenger bus drivers over the past 2 weeks or so it would appear that various dept heads have tried their best to "massage" the figures as much as possible.
It's just the typical mentality that exists in a place where ones sense of accomplishment and value is based purely on financial performance...never mind the 50 pax waiting 45 minutes for a bus, all of whom miss their connections.

[lospilotos]

FG1 and CSVs forced back into shared accommodation, cabin crew now having to pay 30/10% (depending on hospital) of medical bills. The latter only effective from today though so no impact on last year...

[DuneMentat]

Heard on a flight recently we're talking about 1.5billion aed loss for this FY. This would tie in with the rumour that deliveries will be cancelled/postponed indefinitely and EK had to pay a penalty...

[P7xkk]

It's Mueller time, so maybe the access code for the top floor in the puzzle palace will be changed.......?

[BANANASBANANAS]

EK is now caught between a rock and a hard place and they know it. Given the undoubtedly bad trading figures, redundancies, forced leave, unpaid cabin crew leave, parked/deferred A380's and pilot shortage, it will be difficult to justify a substantial across the board pay rise and discretionary bonus. But if they don't award front line staff a substantial pay rise and discretionary bonus as a first step in acknowledging they made mistakes and trying to put things right, then pilot attrition will worsen, pilot recruitment will continue to be 'challenging' and the master plan, along with brand image, will take yet more serious hits.

There comes a time when they have to stop saying 'we can't afford a pay rise' (and just expect us to suck it up) and have to acknowledge that they can't afford not to award a substantial payrise.

That time is now.

[Mach_Krit]

pardon my ignorance...but who is TICH?

[White Knight]

but who is TICH?

That Irish.... and so on

[north flyer]

The thread I wait for each year.

They will start jerking us off with teaser emails from whoever and rumors from "someone in the know" about this and that telling us to just hold on, it will get better, it's going to be great.

Then it will go past May with the email telling us pay is still under review, they will make you feel like there is some kind of internal turmoil between the good guys and bad guys, that will make you think there is hope and cause you to stay just a little bit longer and the next thing you know, summer is over, kids are in school and you are here for another year.

Anyhow, the way I see it:

Are they going to make a profit, mature airlines have good years and bad years and survive, just the nature of the game, my guess is that they will show a loss on the airline side for a few reasons that they just can't hide anymore, but who really cares, Shake Mo is going to get his "payment to the owner" from the group.

Token bonus, maybe, maybe not, but again, who really cares.

Now for the interesting one, pay raises,

This one has me a little stumped, as I have never seen an airline in this situation before, they are still growing, at least for now, flying wide body aircraft all over the world, yet losing their experienced pilots and can barely attack entry level pilots.

10%, that will not even get anyone's attention.

20%, might get a few to sit up and take notice, but I don't think that it will change the situation much.

30%, now you have people taking notice, don't get me wrong, I think that 30% just brings us back into the realm of being in the lower tier mature airlines pay with the amount of flying and general bull**** we put up with, but it makes you sit up a little straighter in your chair.

So, do they give 30%, no way, they might as well give us nothing and hope for the best, which seems to be the way things go around here.

[sluggums]

25% pay rise and 16 weeks...... Please note the date.

[fliion]

Pay raise.

To put it in historical perspective - Pay increases /bonus since 2000.

I have combined step or lack thereof in the increase number and called it an increase for simplicity (yes I know step is not an increase)

I do not have profit share or Edu support allowance numbers from 2000-2007.
2000-2007 numbers were provided by a colleague

Month/ Year

05/00
3%
05/01
5%
05/02
6%
05/03
3%
05/04
5%
05/05
11%
05/06
10%
05/07
9%


Pay raise/profit share/Edu/housing since May 2008
05/08
12% 14 wks
05/09
0% 0 wks - GF Crisis (OT thresh 78-92)
05/10
6% 3wks
05/11 (edu fund 32-40/54-60)
8% 12wks
05/12
3%
05/13 (edu fund 40-42/60-63)
3.5%
05/14 (staff travel erosion)
3% 3wks (edu 42-46/63-70)
housing up to16075pm for CAPTs
05/15
3% 9wks (edu 46-47.5/70-72.5)
OT thresh 88h
05/16
3% 5wks (Steps + for Snr Capts, flying pay +,ground pay, sim pay)

2016/17 target 7.2bn (Live out cancelled / level 2 pay scales intro)
(1st half 1.3 achieved)

I expect annual profit # of around 2.5-2.8bn for group.

Pay raise ? Well if it's not significant- we are reminded once again that they don't get it. I doubt I'll be surprised.

But what's most depressing is that we took a 15% pay cut due OT ^ in 2009. Since then we have had a 0.5% increase in pay. Even if you take the OT 92 to 88hrs as a 4% pay raise - our salaries are down 10.5% since 2009 if you generously assume that inflation is avg fixed is 3% (*note the 6% in 2010 - 3% of that not considered a raise as it covered the 0 step owed from 2009)

And that ladies and gents is an absolute f+*#%+^g disgrace. I haven't even figured days off reduction into the equation

TICH and higher up better wake up - and understand that the above is not negative spin - it is what it is.

And if it doesn't change in the face of VAT - attrition will increase even more.

[The Turtle]

as a face-saving measure VAT can be mentioned in any increase....

however pitiful it may be

[donpizmeov]

A major roadshow campaign has just completed trying to get more pilots. If they were about to enhance any package it would have been detailed before them to better bait the trap.

[JAYTO]

Maybe they had the information. The problem was. No one was there to hear it 😁

[BobDole]

If their lips were moving they were lying anyways... :ok:

[flareflyer]

Or maybe this last round if roadshow was to see what they could get before thorowing in any improvement.
And for what it seems it has been a complete failure........that means they have no excuses anymore......

[Panther 88]

If one thinks that there will be any pay raise (step excluded) and/or any profit share (when no profit made, what's to share) they better check that shisha to ensure no extra "herbs" are in it.

[Odins Raven]

It's not true that no-one turned up at the roadshows. I spoke to somebody who attended the MAN roadshow hosted by the FO on maternity leave and a girl from HR.

There were a few Stobart Air FOs who were short of hours, a couple of guys with the hours but not really interested in the job just there to hear the details from the horse's mouth so to speak. And also one older guy who had 800 hours total time instructing PPLs.

Whether that's the demographic they're targeting remains to be seen, but they may just be glad to put bums on FD seats in the short term until Mueller's consolidation of fleet and routes has taken place and there is a clearer picture on numbers / experience levels needed for the long term.

[Flyboy_SG]

Besides,I heard the new hire turbo prop guys are screwing up big time...?

[Odins Raven]

Besides,I heard the new hire turbo prop guys are screwing up big time...?

Not their fault though, surely? It's probably the first time a major airline has taken low-hour TP guys straight onto 350 ton jets. I'd hope there would be a special plan in place to allow for a long training period to ease them into the vastly different environment. Poor line trainers must feel the pressure a bit?

[Icarus2001]

A major roadshow campaign has just completed trying to get more pilots.

http://www.emiratesgroupcareers.com/english/careers_overview/pilot_jobs/roadshows.aspx

Not completed.

Australia and NZ throughout April.

[Kamelchaser]

Poor line trainers must feel the pressure a bit?

Oh I wouldn't worry about the trainers...most of the experienced ones have left or are leaving. The new ones (the pay per duty chaps whose rosters will be rightly screwed by the company to save a penny or two) won't even know what a bad standard is.

All good in the bouncy castle as the entire trainer workforce slowly moves to pay-per-duty.

[harry the cod]

I know it's a rumour forum but sometimes it gets ridiculous. Like the Captain recently fired for offloading a VIP with 'wasta' who made a comment about a bomb on board. Funny when you ask that nobody can name him! Perhaps one to put to bed.

As for this turboprop nonsense, apart from a few exceptions, the majority are doing ok and have a very high standard of handling. They're young, keen and absorb the procedures and SOP's easily enough. The biggest issues they're encountering are energy management and route familiarisation, which is why they're getting more training sectors than previously. Most of us managed the transition okay, why should these guys and girls be different? Maybe time for some of us prima donnas to dismount from our high horses.

The only concern would indeed be the experience level of the trainers but despite losing some good guys, there are equally good and younger guys to replace them. What contract they're on is immaterial. In fact, I'm actually pleased to see the back of some of our training dinosaurs. Most were great and are a genuine loss to the department and to maintaining common sense and airmanship within the airline. A minority, however, were archaic, subjective and did no training. They checked to their own technique and beliefs. They offered no practical advice and merely followed SOP's to the letter. There was no flexibility. In their eyes, resilience and airmanship were alien terms used only in CRM classrooms and had no practical application within a simulator or aircraft. They did not encourage F/O's to 'think outside the box'. They penalised them for not learning calls by rote and for not following SOP's blindly.

They, will not be missed.

Harry

[motley flight crue]

Actually Harry he was demoted, and no, I won't let prune know who he is.

[Craggenmore]

I flew with him numerous times as his FO and he's a fine captain. Very sad to see this happen.

[harry the cod]

Then as an addition to my post, I'd agree, it is sad to see.

I would love to know the details behind such a decision and whether the individual feels it's worth fighting. Captains, while ultimately responsible, still have to justify those decisions and it would be nice to hear the background to this event. If an individual mentions he had explosives, regardless of his status, he or she should be offloaded. Can't see any security personal or law enforcement body excepting such a blaze comment, so why should we? We don't know all the facts to this, obviously, but we should.

Not knowing could have serious safety and security implications for future similar decisions required by the Commander, knowing in the back of his/her mind that they may get demoted or fired if it's the wrong 'individual'.

Harry

[donpizmeov]

Your mate JA explained to said demoted Capt that EK doesn't follow a particular international convention Harry. If only he had taken the time to review what is taught on NAC course. The whole matter is disgusting. Hats off to the demoted Captain involved. His actions and attitude has been exemplary. If something goes wrong here you are on your own. None of the office wallies will help.

[Jack D]

All true I'm afraid Harry , and he did fight it , you must surely begin to realize that you as commander can be out wastad by a friend of a friend in these parts , sad and pathetic but true . As for the young , keen and able new trainers who do you think trains them ? yes it's the old hands who are slowly leaving the ship

[Jack D]

All true I'm afraid Harry , and he did fight it , you must surely begin to realize that you as commander can be out wastad by a friend of a friend in these parts , sad and pathetic but true . As for the young , keen and able new trainers who do you think trains them ? That's right .. the very experienced instructors who are sadly departing for various reasons and then what ?

[fliion]

Your mate JA explained to said demoted Capt that EK doesn't follow a particular international convention Harry. If only he had taken the time to review what is taught on NAC course. The whole matter is disgusting. Hats off to the demoted Captain involved. His actions and attitude has been exemplary. If something goes wrong here you are on your own. None of the office wallies will help.

Very true.

I hope the guys answering their phones and coming in on days off - read this thread and understand the way things work - and think long and hard about doing favors for a Co that downgrades an experienced Capt as a result of wasta.

[harry the cod]

Jack D

In fairness, I did say that numpties were in the minority. I standby the statement that the overall majority are good and deserve a bloody medal for the hours they're doing. There has been some effort to weed out the undesirables over the last 5 years or so but unfortunately, some still remain. As they do in every airline.

Planning is a mess. One minute we're short, the next they're de activating 50 trainers on the 380 each and every month. Ridiculous.

Don, sent you a PM.

Harry

[sluggums]

I've heard he's resigned...

[ruserious]

Bloody sad, but not a big surprise if you are paying any attention to how things are done around here

[5star]

heard from reliable source that indeed a skipper got demoted, after a dishdash i/o was offloaded. To anyone who has the complete story: Please share with us line-guys what happened. This site is a thousand times more useful than the weekly cr*p in the news letter.

also stronger rumor last few days that the 'terminator' is gone... well done (not!)

[flareflyer]

And who is the "terminator"???

[777-200LR]

Mueller is not paid the amount of money he is to be 'gone...no he's not...resigned....he's still on HR Direct....He's fired.....I saw him yesterday....no you didn't...........'

[777-200LR]

Are you alright LR?

You seem a bit stressed. Take some time off.........

Perfectly alright!

If JH down the road lasted as long as he did while he did the things he did under their noses, CM is here for a while. The 'rumor' of him leaving or left is old news

[notapilot15]

I think 777-200LR explained the CM situation very well.

[Avid Aviator]

Harry you are so far off the mark with your assertion that this demotion didn't happen. Maybe you've been away on leave? Or just believing what you want to?
Ask around and find out about the Capt demotion, it is common knowledge. Not for discussion on this forum as EK haven't heard the last of it.
But it is a disgrace and even more of a reason to leave this place than 100+ hour months with **** rostering practices and no leave. There is no job security, you can be cut for nothing at any time. Ask the MEL, MAN, LOS, WAW guys....

[harry the cod]

AA

Please re read my post. I never 'asserted' that he wasn't demoted. The statement was made that someone had been fired for this event, which as it turns out, they were not. This was based on two separate individuals with the same story, obviously providing 'knowledge' to others that was not as 'common' as first thought! That does not for one minute imply that a demotion is in any way considered acceptable. It is not. I'm not privy to the facts or background to this case, or to the individual's history. Neither probably are you and the great majority who post here. And for the record, the WAW guys are still here. A few hours in the sim doing 180's. Done.

I just hope that the individual involved in this unfortunate incident has the contacts and help to take the appropriate action. If he's as competent and capable as many allude to, then he'll do well. It's just unfortunate we work for a company where this nonsense still goes on. You'd have thought they'd have learnt from past mistakes such as Manchester and Columbo.

And our management wonder why pilots aren't coming!

Harry

[The Outlaw]

The problem Harry is that they ARE coming, a little over 400 by my calculations this past rolling year.

I'm not 100 % certain of the resignations during the same period but if we use 200 as a round number, we still have increased by 200 in rough terms. With the posted reductions, the staffing numbers are probably realistic for the short to medium term.

We have been hearing the "they aren't finding anyone to join" tune for years but they keep coming as the company keeps lowering the requirements which they can do knowing that these "lesser qualified" new hires will have plenty of RHS time before any possibility of upgrade.

I think it stinks but with a little research you'll see the numbers don't lie.

[BYMONEK]

Avid Aviator

I wholeheartedly agree about the lack of job security. It's only as good as your last landing or last PA.

Just not sure that the Melbourne incident should be jumbled in with the others. It was as close as you could get to a hull lose without losing one. It was a catalogue of errors by the crew and lack of SOP adherence. Whatever our views may be on the disciplinary culture and process here, I don't think for one minute the outcome was in any doubt for the crew. As it would have been if they'd worked for the majority of other airlines around the World I suspect. If you watch the replay, you'll see just how lucky they, and their unsuspecting passengers were.

Apologies for thread drift.

[Emma Royds]

The problem Harry is that they ARE coming, a little over 400 by my calculations this past rolling year.

The trend by all accounts is going the wrong way for the company and I have heard from two sources in recruitment, that more have departed the company than have joined in the past six months.

Which may explain the recent roadshows and the plea for us to encourage others to join.

[ruserious]

OK, so had a look at the (top secret/cut and paste protected) seniority list and managed to do a sort. According to my old saved lists, on 1st Nov 2016 we had 4218 pilots, as of today we have 4229, so we have added 11 pilots in 5 months. The last joiner on the 1st Nov has moved up the seniority list exactly 100 places as of today. So unless I am missing something, (not counting any new joiners leaving) we have lost 100 pilots in 5 months.

Also in the last month, the number of total pilots on the seniority list has reduced by from 4244 to 4229

[glofish]

This is fake news by very bad people, i know it, i have seen the numbers and they are fantastic. The company does an awesome job, like a fine-tuned machine. We have outstanding candidates, all of them, they have fantastic credentials and do a superb job. Everything else is simply not true and if so, to be blamed on Obama.

[Talparc]

Who ever needs professional help in suing ( not only in the UAE) or sorting out all kind of personal - contractual problems with the company please PM.
Great success rates can be proven!
Total anonymity guaranteed.