Could anyone help with a minor neighbour dilemma?

[chickensniffer]

Hi folks,

I'm hoping to get some thoughts from people who fly helicopters as I don't know anything about them but I've found myself in a minor dilemma. I don't want to jump to any conclusions so I'm hoping that some people with more experience can help shed some light on my plight?

I live in Australia in a semi-rural area where all the properties are 30-60 acre blocks, mostly run as farming for vegetables/chickens/flowers/cattle/horses/etc. I have horses on my block, both my own and other peoples' horses and they're all horses in regular training and involved in competitive sports.

The property over the back fence is a commercial business, also on large acreage, who have helicopters come and go periodically.

For years there has never been an issue with the horses and the helicopters, except about 6 months back where one helicopter came directly over the house at a height that seemed too low as I could make out all the detail on the underside of the helicopter and the noise from even inside the house made me panic. It then flew down over the horse paddocks, where all the horses got a fright and ran, leaving some with (minor) injuries.

I emailed the company (they're a fairly large operation and it's not a case of being able to lean over the fence and talk to them) and asked them to please be mindful of flying so low over the horses as scaring them could easily result in a panicked horse running through the fence and breaking its neck/legs/anything. The email was very polite as I've never had issues with the neighbours (and they've never had issues with us) and I definitely didn't want any hostile relationship between us. I also explained that I'd never had issues with the helicopters before, but felt that this particular one was flying far lower than any I'd seen before it.

They actually responded right away, within about 10 minutes, saying that the pilot was still on the property, that they'd let him know that his flight in had upset the horses and would make sure he stayed a bit higher. All has been mostly good since then but this particular helicopter still seems to fly lower than all the others, and also seems to circle over the horses' paddocks.

Fortunately I have cameras that overlook the horses so that I can check on them while I'm at work, and one particular camera regularly captures this same helipcopter doing his circles over the horses' paddocks. My dilemma is that... as someone who knows nothing about helicopters... I find myself assuming that this pilot is doing this on purpose because he feels slighted that I asked him to not scare the horses. But I don't want to jump to conclusions.

Would anyone be able to take a look and tell me what is technically going on from a pilot's perspective? Is this some sort of pre-landing pattern that has to happen for him to land? Is it specific to different types of helicopters as no other helicopter does this pattern at this height?

Fortunately I've never seen him fly again at the (low) height from the original complaint but I feel he's inching ever lower just to try and scare the horses.

If anybody could share their thoughts I would be very grateful.

https://youtu.be/fUqVY1VqP00

[Flying Binghi]

Heh... it don't take much to scare a horse..:)

Horse farted and scared itself https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yAuO3GnjCEM

As a long time owner of both horses and helicopters i've come to the conclusion that they is not to dissimilar. Easy to break, expensive to run, and prone to giving yer a fright from time to time if yer not paying attention.

That chopper in the thread starter video looks to be doing nothing out of the ordinary. Likely either landing into wind or approaching over clear ground. Looking closely at the vid there appears to be open paddock under the final approach line of the chopper.





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[haihio]

as a helicopter pilot my self I would address your complaint straight away and make sure I would take a different approach path next time to avoid causing unnecessary annoyance to people.
I am sure any sensible pilot would do the same.

[hueyracer]

Take a picture of Google Earth, and make a big circle around your property.

Send it to the company, asking them to distribute this to the pilot to never overfly your property.

Done.

[null]

Doing circles?? Looks to me like he's doing the best he can given direction he is coming from and landing direction to stay high and away from your property until final approach, he certainly isn't in the video 'doing circles'. The 3 horse we can see in the foreground didn't even lift their head from eating to have a look.

[Nubian]

Without knowing how the rest of the area looks like, I would say that the pilot is approaching his landing spot in the best way he thinks is for the given terrain, wind, obstacles etc. (helicopters should land nose into the wind for best control, safety and performance) From the video, it does not look like he is coming over the paddock but lateral distance is very difficult to judge, specially from a video.
When it comes to the height, it does not look like he is very low either, but as we cannot see where he actually lands it is difficult to say for sure.

Now, from my own experience operating around horses/farms, all pilots in company were warned about overflying at low height, in which everyone tried to do his best to follow. The intentional scare of horses which cause damages or injuries could be blamed on the pilot in a lawsuit later on, and no-one would like to take that risk if informed about it.

But as being pointed out, the horses in the videoclip does not even react to this approach, so either it is a bad example of evidence you provide, or there is nothing about it you should be concerned of.

But a polite reminder about your concern wouldn't hurt.

[Fareastdriver]

I can't see a problem with that video have flown helicopters and owned horses. As others have pointed out the ones in the foreground are not even looking up.

Horses get used to noises, it's only strange happenings that upset them. Think of the scenes of competitive events, police work, traffic and in the past cavalry. Once used to it they take it in their stride.

[419]

Not knowing anything about horses, I was wondering if it's possible to train them to get used to the noise the same way that dogs can be acclimatised to things such as loud fireworks.

If you play a recording of a helicopter at a lowish volume and gradually increase the noise over a period of a few weeks, it may be the case that the horses stop reacting quite so much when an actual helicopter flies over your property.

[chickensniffer]

Thanks for the replies, folks. It's great to get some input from the other side of the fence, so to speak.



But as being pointed out, the horses in the videoclip does not even react to this approach, so either it is a bad example of evidence you provide, or there is nothing about it you should be concerned of.

But a polite reminder about your concern wouldn't hurt.

It is a bad example. The video isn't an example of the behaviour that caused the original complaint. In that instance, the helicopter didn't come from the side fence, it came over top of the house (so above where the camera is mounted) and then flew in a straight line down over top of the paddocks, and left out the right side of the frame.

Unfortunately I don't have the footage from that but I have little doubt that anyone could have disagreed it was too low. As it came over the house I looked out the window and could see the underside of it passing over head. The horses panicked and bolted. Perhaps there was an emergency situation that resulted in him flying so low, I'm not sure, but it sounded like he was landing on the roof.


This particular video is an example of what the helicopter does now, instead of coming over the house. He comes in from the side of the property, does a circle, and then lands at the property next door. I'm just not sure why the circle. What does that achieve?

The horses are mostly used to the helicopters and don't even look at them, except in instances where I feel they're flying too flow.


Not knowing anything about horses, I was wondering if it's possible to train them to get used to the noise the same way that dogs can be acclimatised to things such as loud fireworks


It would depend on their general nature (which varies with each horse) but they can be acclimatised to a lot of scenarios.

Though I'd presume that the physical presence of the helicopter would scare them just as much as the sound. They are prey animals and always on the lookout, and a helicopter flying low in their direction would look like a large horse-eating predator. When they get a big enough fright they'll go into flight mode and try to get away at any cost, and that can include injuring themselves to get away. Some can crash through fences, some can rear up and fall over backwards. If the ground is wet from too much rain, a slip while bolting can result in broken legs and ripped tendons.

Horses are pretty fragile despite their size so they're usually kept away from the well-meaning-but-unknowledgeable public. There's not much that I can do when those people fly in from above though.

These particular horses are expensive. They're not your run-of-the-mill $500 horse from the auction yard and their loss to injury would not only be the loss of a pet, but the destruction of tens of thousands of dollars worth of property. (In Australia, animals are very unfortunately only considered property according to our law)

At the moment I'm not too concerned as I haven't had another instance the pilot flying as low as he did the first time.
It's good to hear that the circling is just a part of figuring out the landing and not an intentional hovering over the horses.

[chickensniffer]

Take a picture of Google Earth, and make a big circle around your property.

Send it to the company, asking them to distribute this to the pilot to never overfly your property.

Done.

I don't think I'm allowed to do that and I don't want to be the person who tries to deny others from flying over. I'd just like to make sure they're aware of the repercussions to my animals if they decide to come in even lower and it results in a fright.

Horses aren't as fixable as dogs or cats. If they break bones, that's the end of the road for them, the only treatment a vet can offer is a bullet.

They're aware of my concerns as I've already spoken to them so I think the only thing I can do from this point forward is just continue on hoping they don't fly lower.

[RatherBeFlying]

https://www.casa.gov.au/about-casa/webform/report-low-flying-aircraft

I don't know the legal situation in OZ, but generally, spooking an expensive horse to injury can incur substantial civil legal liability.

That said landing aircraft are allowed to come down low. Unnecessarily low over people, structures and animals is a no no.

[Fareastdriver]

Think yourself lucky you are not in some parts of the UK. There your horses or cattle can be quietly munching away and a thundering great big Chinook doing about 120 knots appears over the hedge.

[Nubian]

I'm just not sure why the circle. What does that achieve?

Well, a normal approach of a helicopter would be to turn it into the wind for the safety of the helicopter and it's occupants during the landing phase. From the video (as an example) I would recon the helicopter comes flying from a direction where it travels with the wind, flies a bit past the landing in order to face into the wind for landing.

These ''circles'' are very normal.

Hope it explains your question.

As I said a friendly reminder shouldn't hurt, and it might be they have got new pilots which is unaware of your situation. Most pilots are sensible enough to avoid overflying certain areas if they know about it.

[EDML]

Depending on the wind direction it might be difficult to safely approach the landing spot without overflying your property. Very steep approaches are not very safe either - especially in a single engine heli.

[aa777888]

This particular video is an example of what the helicopter does now, instead of coming over the house. He comes in from the side of the property, does a circle, and then lands at the property next door. I'm just not sure why the circle. What does that achieve?

If that is what the helicopter is doing now, then is there any problem anymore, other than idle curiosity?

To help satisfy your curiosity, see this link:

Helicopter Flight Training Manual (TP 9982) - Transport Canada (http://tc.gc.ca/eng/civilaviation/publications/tp9982-exercise25-4907.htm)

I chose that link because of the excellent illustration. The flight pattern shown is typical and it does a number of things to increase safety, including, but not limited to:


It allows the pilot to check the landing area for hazards (helicopters are usually piloted from the right hand seat, hence the clockwise nature of the pattern improves pilot visibility of the landing area).
It allows the helicopter to land flying into the wind.

[G-CPTN]

Think yourself lucky you are not in some parts of the UK. A thundering great big Chinook doing about 120 knots appears over the hedge.

I live in a low-flying corridor (and love it).
After a particularly low low-flying Chinook blew the leaves around in my garden, I enquired of the low-flying hotline (yes, there is (or was) one) - before the guidance lines WRT animals were issued - as to the minimum height for traversing (I made it clear that I was not complaining) and was told that it was 'down to ground level for helicopters'.

[jayteeto]

You are all missing something here. None of the other pilots are dong this. Why does the pilot who got a talking to need to do this?
Sounds like a tool to me.

[chickensniffer]

You are all missing something here. None of the other pilots are dong this. Why does the pilot who got a talking to need to do this?
Sounds like a tool to me.

Oh yeah, I forgot that I have extra footage of that.
10 seconds after the blue helicopter landed, a white helicopter came in to land too. Here's the video of the white helicopter and I've noticed that this one always seems to stay much higher than the blue one does over the horses. https://youtu.be/KcTSW9DnvE8

For easy comparison, here are screenshots of each over roughly the same spot:
Blue helicopter: http://i.imgur.com/Fbbvjqx.jpg
White helicopter: http://i.imgur.com/6OBdESK.jpg

If that is what the helicopter is doing now, then is there any problem anymore, other than idle curiosity?

No problem currently, no. The height that he's flying isn't bothering the horses, I just feel like he's inching ever lower because he does still fly lower than the others. The curiousity had me wondering whether that's for a technical helicopter-related reason or not.

Thanks for the link, I'll check it out.

Think yourself lucky you are not in some parts of the UK. There your horses or cattle can be quietly munching away and a thundering great big Chinook doing about 120 knots appears over the hedge.

That must be awful. It would be nice to instil some more brains into horses so that they don't panic as it can be pretty upsetting to lose a horse to someone else's actions whether it was intended or not.

That said landing aircraft are allowed to come down low. Unnecessarily low over people, structures and animals is a no no.

Thanks for the link, I'll check that one out too. How does someone on the ground actually calculate how high or low a helicopter is flying?

[chickensniffer]

You are all missing something here. None of the other pilots are dong this. Why does the pilot who got a talking to need to do this?
Sounds like a tool to me.

I forgot to add. It looks like I was wrong and that the other pilots do those "circles" too (sorry if the terminology is wrong). I guess I haven't noticed because they stay so much higher in the sky than the blue one does.

[John Eacott]

There is no proof that it is 'the same pilot'. If it is a large business, as claimed by the OP, then it is almost certain that there would be a number of pilots who would fly whichever helicopter is allocated to them by the company for that flight. Multiple flights of the same helicopter on the one day could easily involve more than one pilot: let's stop the 'blame the pilot' line unless there is some incontrovertible proof.

cs, does your horse paddock finish at the tree line in your pictures? If so then the helicopters would appear to be well clear of your property and this could be much ado about nothing. The different approaches by different pilots in different helicopters, to (probably) different landing pads would not be unusual.

Have you invited the Chief Pilot over to have him watch the approaches? Have you talked to anyone at the helicopter business, rather than just an exchange of emails? That would undoubtedly be far more productive than discussions on a (generally) anonymous internet forum: you have my name and if you want to contact me for a direct Australian input then please feel free to do so.

[chickensniffer]

There is no proof that it is 'the same pilot'. If it is a large business, as claimed by the OP, then it is almost certain that there would be a number of pilots who would fly whichever helicopter is allocated to them by the company for that flight. Multiple flights of the same helicopter on the one day could easily involve more than one pilot: let's stop the 'blame the pilot' line unless there is some incontrovertible proof.

cs, does your horse paddock finish at the tree line in your pictures? If so then the helicopters would appear to be well clear of your property and this could be much ado about nothing. The different approaches by different pilots in different helicopters, to (probably) different landing pads would not be unusual.

No, it extends a further 5 acres as an open field but it's lower and unable to be seen by the camera.

Have you invited the Chief Pilot over to have him watch the approaches? Have you talked to anyone at the helicopter business, rather than just an exchange of emails? That would undoubtedly be far more productive than discussions on a (generally) anonymous internet forum: you have my name and if you want to contact me for a direct Australian input then please feel free to do so.No, I haven't contacted the company since the first contact 6 months back. I'm not going to as I don't want to create tension where none is justified.
Instead I am seeking input from precisely a generally anonymous internet forum who have knowledge of these sorts of things and could maybe offer their thoughts on the different flight patterns by the different helicopters. It will help me decide whether I'm reading too much into what's happening. If yes, I'll leave things be and just keep an eye out. If no, I'll consider contacting the company again. I won't apologise for that, I don't think I am doing the wrong thing by asking people here for their thoughts.

[Arm out the window]

Chickensniffer, I think it's great that you're trying to get a better idea of the factors affecting the types of approaches that helicopters do. It's a lot better than what a lot of people seem to do - complain strongly in the first instance and in so doing immediately kill any chance of a meaningful dialogue between themselves and the helicopter operator.

The videos of the helicopter approaches that you've put up show normal and benign activities, and certainly don't seem to be indicating any directed attempts to do anything that might adversely affect your horses. From what you've said of the response from the company after the first approach, they've taken quick and appropriate action as evidenced by the normal-looking approaches on the videos you've put up.

Helicopters will often circle a landing area to assess the wind (which they should almost always land into, or close to) or to check the landing area for obstacles, loose items, wires etc, so if you see a helicopter doing that, it would be my first guess as to what it was up to.

That first approach may even have been someone initially mis-identifying the landing point, and realising when on approach that it wasn't the exact right spot (i.e. a horse paddock rather than a clear landing area!), and aborting the landing, leading to a lower-than-normal overflight of your place.

Regarding putting in a clear request not to fly over your place for a good reason (not scaring the stock), you certainly can do that as Hueyracer said - any decent helicopter operator would inform their pilots of the issue and brief them to avoid your place by as large a margin as is practicable and safe.

Helicopters need to be able to operate without undue restriction and landowners need to be able to protect their interests with respect to noise and stock, but if everyone is adult and reasonable about it, the two can co-exist happily. If the helicopter operator doesn't do the right thing or the property owner takes the tack that the very sight or sound of a helicopter is a personal attack, that's when things get out of hand.

Horses and cattle get used to helicopters pretty quickly too, and now the company knows where you are and that you have horses, it would seem unlikely there'd be further problems. Helicopters sometimes get a bad rap because they're something out of the ordinary, but with all the motorbikes, trucks, chainsaws etc around the place they are just another factor in the overall picture.

[John Eacott]

No, it extends a further 5 acres as an open field but it's lower and unable to be seen by the camera.

No, I haven't contacted the company since the first contact 6 months back. I'm not going to as I don't want to create tension where none is justified.
Instead I am seeking input from precisely a generally anonymous internet forum who have knowledge of these sorts of things and could maybe offer their thoughts on the different flight patterns by the different helicopters. It will help me decide whether I'm reading too much into what's happening. If yes, I'll leave things be and just keep an eye out. If no, I'll consider contacting the company again. I won't apologise for that, I don't think I am doing the wrong thing by asking people here for their thoughts.

Two points: the extra 5 acres, are they used for horses or just the area shown in the foreground? If there are just a few horses down there under the trees, the pilots may not have noticed them.

Second, I'd strongly recommend contacting the company Chief Pilot and ask him around for a coffee and polite chat, preferably when he knows there will be helicopter movements into the landing site with the wind such that helicopters are approaching as shown in your photos and video. With other wind directions they would be coming in from another direction and not the issue that you are showing.

I've been there as a Chief Pilot and usually there is a simple fix: and I always took my neighbours for a ride to get both sides of the issue. You may get a flight, too :ok: