Commissioned from the ranks.

[Al R]

<<Across the military, a third of Army officers, a quarter of RAF officers and a fifth of Royal Navy officers have been commissioned having not joined at that level.>>

A little higher than I thought it may have been. Unsure, so I stand by to be corrected, but it probably saves a little money too I guess.

http://www.forces.net/news/hard-work-paying-lower-ranks-army#.WMj4lUoWfY8.twitter

[Danny42C]

Being one of those who (in Naval parlance) was commissioned ("through the hawsehole) from the ranks of the R.A.F. I would suggest that all entrants should serve in the ranks of their Service for a minumum of six months before being considered for commissioning.

ISTR that some regulation of that nature was applied to Army candidates in WWII - but stand to be corrected.

Should know, but did our direct-entry cadets at Cranwell or Henlow take the Oath of Attestation ?

Danny42C.

[MPN11]

I was an airman for months [at OCTU], and was bloody good at polishing the barrack room floor with the dreaded 'bumper, cleaning dust and polishing the ablutions. I also marched around a lot, and occasionally had to run.

What do you want? Blood? ;)

[Pontius Navigator]

Danby, and we was attested too.

[Fareastdriver]

I did both. I was a national service squaddie in the Rhodesian Army and an Royal Air Force Officer Cadet. South Cerney was a breeze; they didn't even check to see if the eyelets on my boots were polished.

[MPN11]

Eyelets, FED? What about the soles of the boots, and the studs?

Sloppy.

[taxydual]

I did 15 years Airman's service before, to quote Israel Hands from Treasure Island, "I want their pickles and wines, and that." So I took the plunge and served for a further 12 years as a Commissioned Officer.

Initially it was difficult making the transition. I kept saluting JO's and calling WO's Sir.

But eventually............I considered myself an OK Squadron Joe. Not great, but not bad either. I could see both sides of everything.

It was only at my release interview with my AOC (which came completely out of the blue, Staish OK, AOC wow). He had obviously researched my pen portrait. "My Airman's service had made me" he said "but I had made my Commissioned service" and "That I would be missed".

The letter he wrote to me, on behalf of the Air Force Board, some time later, I still treasure.

Obviously, it would not suit everybody. However, I certainly would recommend service in the Ranks, however short or long, before attaining 'the pickles and wine'.

[langleybaston]

Also worked well in the humble Met. Office. ALL of the echelon that actually made things work in the outfield [the bit that served the RAF] at Principal level [EMR Wg Cdr or Gp Capt depending on the appointment] were ex lowest of the low unestablished observers/ plotters. Thus, we could do every job that we supervised, wool was not pulled over our eyes, but we knew when to turn a blind eye.

In the interim, these PSOs had gathered relevant A levels, many had external degrees, and all had attended umpteen course, not just in-house but such as RN Lts course at Greenwich, Civil Service College, GIT and the like.

The one public service that I think gets it wrong is the Police, with its unswerving insistence on the total nuts and bolts exams for sergeant, with apparently no alternative track to inspector and beyond.

[MPN11]

I thought the Police had a Fast-Track system? But that may have been years ago, and probably needed a Degree in <something>

[langleybaston]

under-water basket weaving was favourite, was it not?

[Chinny Crewman]

It's not a new concept; AVM Sir Frederick Sykes who was the second CAS originally joined the Army as a trooper in 1899 before being granted a field commission in 1900. He was given a regular commission later that year. He also embraced jointery before it became popular, as the aviation commander during the Dardanelles campaign the RN refused to take orders from a member of a junior service so he was made a Colonel Commandant in the Royal Marines. He subsequently adopted his Army rank before taking the rank of AVM when the RAF was formed. He was seen as a rival to Trenchard and had things turned out slightly differently we would see a lot more 'Sykes lines/blocks/houses' as opposed to Trenchard.

[salad-dodger]

I thought the Police had a Fast-Track system?
They do.

S-D

[JAVELINBOY]

Police and fast Track don't get me started, latest idea is direct entry Inspectors and Superintendents from a management background but with no Police experience, a recipe for disaster in my view. The old accelerated promotion scheme died out some years ago but at least that saw them actually working in the ranks Constable, Sergeant to Inspector to learn the sharp end.

[porch monkey]

Wot he said. Double.

[Sloppy Link]

Dartmouth/Sandhurst/Cranwell teaches select individuals to be an Officer. Those Commissioned from the ranks have learnt how to be an Officer (my words).
Field Marshall Sir William Robertson has the distinction of being the only Private Soldier to have risen to the very top, becoming CIGS between the wars, he rose to Troop Sergeant Major before Commissioning and included a spell in jail for allowing a prisoner to escape. The only rank he didn't hold was WO1.

[Basil]

Not commissioned from the ranks but, some time before joining the RAF, I was a TA REME craftsman; trade: gunfitter, 25 pounders.
The only thing I remember was the procedure for removing a misfire which had jammed in the rifling. Personally I'd just have suggested to the gunners that they insert another charge (full three bags), use a very long lanyard, and blow it out. That, however was not the prescribed procedure :E

[MPN11]

...
The only thing I remember was the procedure for removing a misfire which had jammed in the rifling. ... :E
So what was the procedure? A long cleaning rod and a big hammer?

[Basil]

So what was the procedure? A long cleaning rod and a big hammer?
Can't find a picture but it was a long screw jack which fitted to the muzzle.
It had a cup which rested on the curved ogive of the shell behind the fuze.
The screw was then used to jack the shell back to the breech.
Never actually carried out the procedure :ok:

[MPN11]

"Behind the fuse" is good :)

Thanks for that enlightening diversion. I've cleared a few barrel jams in handguns, and often wondered what happened with the 'big stuff'.

[Tankertrashnav]

Of the 21 who were commissioned on my OCTU course at Feltwell in December 1964, 11 had come through the ranks. I think we started around 28, but several direct entrants got chopped along the way.

We were all destined for ground branches, the figures would have been a lot different at ITS at South Cerney where I should think around 80 - 90 % would be direct entrants, all aircrew hopefuls.

[langleybaston]

QUOTE:

Field Marshall Sir William Robertson has the distinction of being the only Private Soldier to have risen to the very top, becoming CIGS between the wars, he rose to Troop Sergeant Major before Commissioning and included a spell in jail for allowing a prisoner to escape. The only rank he didn't hold was WO1.

Hardly surprising, as WO I did not exist until WO II was created in 1915, by which time he was a general.

[tarantonight]

Police and fast Track don't get me started, latest idea is direct entry Inspectors and Superintendents from a management background but with no Police experience, a recipe for disaster in my view. The old accelerated promotion scheme died out some years ago but at least that saw them actually working in the ranks Constable, Sergeant to Inspector to learn the sharp end.

JB makes a very good point. The system used in the military will not work in the police due to the unique nature of the work.

There are many faults with 'The Police' as an organisation, but the vast majority are trying to do the best they can against the same budget cuts - something I know the military are suffering. Anyway, I digress, sorry - a senior manager from the retail world who is a direct entrant at Superintendent level could, in theory, SIO (run) a Cat A murder,i.e, a murder without very many clues, or one with OCG (Organised Crime Group). Chaos would ensue!

A UK Force employed 3 Direct Entrants in the last couple of years and I feel fairly confident in saying non are still in situ.

If it ain't broke - as it were - don't try and fix it.

I don't ever recall the Government suggesting Group Captains should become Flt Sgts!!

TN.

[MPN11]

God forbid, tarantonight ... most of UK Mil only functions thanks to the SNCOs/WOs.

I was luckily taught and battered by WOs/MACR during my first 2 commissioned tours. It was a sound foundation for the remaining decades.

[Maxibon]

Usual stereotypical responses. Why waste money on de-educating the odd half-decent proper officer candidate to spend a year on the lower decks learning how to hklp only then to dump them back into officer training to re-educate them back to being socially acceptable officers. Wait a minute, the last RAF mess had individuals in collarless t- shirts and jeans eating take-away pizzas. Perhaps the challenge ain't that great😏

[tarantonight]

God forbid, tarantonight ... most of UK Mil only functions thanks to the SNCOs/WOs.

I was luckily taught and battered by WOs/MACR during my first 2 commissioned tours. It was a sound foundation for the remaining decades.

In a roundabout way, my point exactly!

[Sloppy Link]

LB - Thank you, every day is a school day!

[Al R]

JB makes a very good point. The system used in the military will not work in the police due to the unique nature of the work.

There are many faults with 'The Police' as an organisation, but the vast majority are trying to do the best they can against the same budget cuts - something I know the military are suffering. Anyway, I digress, sorry - a senior manager from the retail world who is a direct entrant at Superintendent level could, in theory, SIO (run) a Cat A murder,i.e, a murder without very many clues, or one with OCG (Organised Crime Group). Chaos would ensue!

A UK Force employed 3 Direct Entrants in the last couple of years and I feel fairly confident in saying non are still in situ.

If it ain't broke - as it were - don't try and fix it.

I don't ever recall the Government suggesting Group Captains should become Flt Sgts!!

TN.

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/analysis/military-man-adam-coming-home-for-top-police-job-in-north-yorkshire-1-6997179

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/crime/sorry-i-compared-bobbies-to-binmen-says-yorkshire-police-chief-who-didn-t-want-to-pound-the-beat-1-7928915

[tarantonight]

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/analysis/military-man-adam-coming-home-for-top-police-job-in-north-yorkshire-1-6997179

http://www.yorkshirepost.co.uk/news/crime/sorry-i-compared-bobbies-to-binmen-says-yorkshire-police-chief-who-didn-t-want-to-pound-the-beat-1-7928915

You too make a good point Al R. What I should have said - as I have said in private conversations - is the only individual who could come in at Supt level with any sort of relevant experience would be somebody with a particular military background. A senior manager at B&Q who could talk the talk at interview would struggle re the murder I mentioned.

Just to turn the tables, what are your thoughts regarding a Superintendent in the Police becoming a direct entrant Group Captain and having command of a flying station?

TN.

[Al R]

I think, just because someone can do something, doesn't mean they should - Adam will have learned a priceless and very bruising lesson about his new role - at least, one which those who follow him won't make. I don't think that having experience in a role makes one automatically better qualified for it. If civpol approaches SNCO/Warrant Officers, as it does, and asks them to join as PC with quick promotion to Sgt/Inspector, I can't see why, in principle, it shouldn't be able to identify a Sqn Ldr and transfer in skills at that level, too. Are crime fighting skills as readily transferable to war fighting? Probably not. That's not to say you shouldn't trash the culture of an organisation by not paying due service to its traditions, culture and values though. Hence my first point.

[brakedwell]

Didn't Napoleon say French Officers with British SNCO's would make the best army in the world.

[langleybaston]

QUOTE

Just to turn the tables, what are your thoughts regarding a Superintendent in the Police becoming a direct entrant Group Captain and having command of a flying station?

That is a huge disparity of rank, is it not?

Supt about on a par with Sqn Ldr?

For Group Captain, one needs about Commander or a very senior Chief Super?

[Tankertrashnav]

When I was at Exeter University in the early 90s I became very friendly with another mature student, a Met Police inspector who was given 3 years off to do a degree. The thinking was that to allay any resentment about the fast track scheme, selected serving officers were given the opportunity to get a degree. My chum was on full pay, of course, and while we were scrimping and saving on a grant (they still gave them then) he was not only getting his £30k pa or so (I guess) he also got "plain clothes allowance" to pay for his jeans and t-shirts, as he wasn't in uniform! That, and a return rail warrant to London each term, and he was in clover.

He ended up as a superintendent on royal protection duties, so he had a successful career, but whether or not his taxpayer funded history and politics degree was ever any use to him is another matter!

[tarantonight]

QUOTE

Just to turn the tables, what are your thoughts regarding a Superintendent in the Police becoming a direct entrant Group Captain and having command of a flying station?

That is a huge disparity of rank, is it not?

Supt about on a par with Sqn Ldr?

For Group Captain, one needs about Commander or a very senior Chief Super?

Thought this might happen! It is difficult to compare the ranks, but I get your point. The rank of Commander in the police is not held in any provincial forces, only the Met and I think the City of London. The equivalent outside of London is an ACC - Assistant Chief Constable, an ACPO rank, so could perhaps be compared to the first Air/Flag rank etc.

Whether a senior or junior Chief Superintendent, it is only one rank above Superintendent.

TN.

[DODGYOLDFART]

Just an aside on the subject of rank. When I left the RAF in the early 60's I joined one of the main UK IT developers. IT was called data processing at that time. Around a decade later I had risen to be a "senior manager" with around 1200 staff working for me and a very comfortable salary with all the fringe benefits. A comparison with RAF pay etc., would have placed me somewhere above that of a Group Captain.

Whilst the job was both challenging and enjoyable I felt I needed to do something else with my life, so I joined the Met Police as a Special Constable in South London. I was surprised to find that among my colleagues were a great variety of people including a barrister, a couple of medics and several other senior managers and academics. Whilst there was ample opportunity for us to "rise from the ranks" we were all happy to stay as just plain policeman plods. Happy to be accepted by the regulars because we were always there to do the more menial or to them boring tasks.

In the six years I served as a "special" I had ample opportunity to observe how the police organised themselves and managed people. They earned my greatest admiration. Whilst there was a rigid structure when it came to real policing - out on the beat each copper was largely an island, expected to make your own decisions, act upon them and cope with the consequences.

Apart from flying as PIC in an aircraft there are few direct comparisons with the RAF or the manner in which the chain of command works. It should therefore IMHO not be surprising that the rank structures due not directly map across.

[tarantonight]

Just an aside on the subject of rank. When I left the RAF in the early 60's I joined one of the main UK IT developers. IT was called data processing at that time. Around a decade later I had risen to be a "senior manager" with around 1200 staff working for me and a very comfortable salary with all the fringe benefits. A comparison with RAF pay etc., would have placed me somewhere above that of a Group Captain.

Whilst the job was both challenging and enjoyable I felt I needed to do something else with my life, so I joined the Met Police as a Special Constable in South London. I was surprised to find that among my colleagues were a great variety of people including a barrister, a couple of medics and several other senior managers and academics. Whilst there was ample opportunity for us to "rise from the ranks" we were all happy to stay as just plain policeman plods. Happy to be accepted by the regulars because we were always there to do the more menial or to them boring tasks.

In the six years I served as a "special" I had ample opportunity to observe how the police organised themselves and managed people. They earned my greatest admiration. Whilst there was a rigid structure when it came to real policing - out on the beat each copper was largely an island, expected to make your own decisions, act upon them and cope with the consequences.

Apart from flying as PIC in an aircraft there are few direct comparisons with the RAF or the manner in which the chain of command works. It should therefore IMHO not be surprising that the rank structures due not directly map across.

Thankyou, very much. I need say no more.

TN.

[Old Fella]

Taxydual. "I kept saluting JO's and calling WO's Sir". What is wrong with calling Warrant Officer's "Sir" ? Out in the Colonies we were addressed as "Sir" or "Mr ........."

[Basil]

Taxydual. "I kept saluting JO's and calling WO's Sir". What is wrong with calling Warrant Officer's "Sir" ? Out in the Colonies we were addressed as "Sir" or "Mr ........."
The first time anyone referred to me as 'Mr', without being facetious, was when , aged 19, I joined my first ship as a junior engineer and the kindly old Chief said "Ah, you'll be Mr Basil, welcome aboard." The 'kindly old chief' was at least ten years younger than I am now. :{

Re Warrant Officers, reminds me of shambling in the general direction of parked Argosy the morning following a serious night in the mess bar, "I am saluting YOU, sir!" rang across from the other side of the Muharraq parade ground.
Regret I didn't have the presence of mind to reply "And so you should be, Mr errm, err!"

[goudie]

And as Sgt. Major Brittain would say (shout) to a new intake of hapless Sandhurst officer cadets
' I'll address you as sir and you'll address me as sir but when you call me sir, you'll bloody well mean it!'

[Danny42C]

Old Fella (#36).
"... What is wrong with calling Warrant Officer's "Sir" ? Out in the Colonies we were addressed as "Sir" or "Mr ........."
Here in the home country, a Warrant Officer would also be addressed as "Sir" by an airman, and as "Mister" by an officer.


goudie (#38),
Extract from my Post on "Pilot's Brevet" (page 194, #3874):
...it's amazing how much venom and dumb-insolence an experienced W.O. can put into a "Sir"...
(the whole Post is a good read, if I say so myself !)

As for the subject matter, my view is that you should learn to take Orders before learning to give them - simple.

Danny42C (even Older Fella).

[langleybaston]

QUOTE:

Thought this might happen! It is difficult to compare the ranks, but I get your point. The rank of Commander in the police is not held in any provincial forces, only the Met and I think the City of London. The equivalent outside of London is an ACC - Assistant Chief Constable, an ACPO rank, so could perhaps be compared to the first Air/Flag rank etc.

Whether a senior or junior Chief Superintendent, it is only one rank above Superintendent.

It is exactly because I knew that [daughter and her husband both Met. Police] that I wrote "Commander or a senior Chief Super". Unless there is a rank between Chief Super and Commander in the Met., or between Chief Super and ACC elsewhere, I believe my initial post made my point as precisely as I could.

Semantics really.

Certainly the Superintendents who often [why?] lunched at RAF Leeming called Wg Co Flying "Sir" in about 1965 because I clearly remember making a mental note. It is the short term memory that is shagged these days!

[JAVELINBOY]

I would equate a Wg Co to equal a Chief Superintendent Provinces or Metropolitan in status

[tarantonight]

QUOTE:

Thought this might happen! It is difficult to compare the ranks, but I get your point. The rank of Commander in the police is not held in any provincial forces, only the Met and I think the City of London. The equivalent outside of London is an ACC - Assistant Chief Constable, an ACPO rank, so could perhaps be compared to the first Air/Flag rank etc.

Whether a senior or junior Chief Superintendent, it is only one rank above Superintendent.

It is exactly because I knew that [daughter and her husband both Met. Police] that I wrote "Commander or a senior Chief Super". Unless there is a rank between Chief Super and Commander in the Met., or between Chief Super and ACC elsewhere, I believe my initial post made my point as precisely as I could.

Semantics really.

Certainly the Superintendents who often [why?] lunched at RAF Leeming called Wg Co Flying "Sir" in about 1965 because I clearly remember making a mental note. It is the short term memory that is shagged these days!

Know exactly what you mean. I can talk with some clarity about minor events 30 - 40 years ago, but I walk upstairs.....you know the rest!

[Herod]

but I walk upstairs.....you know the rest!

The worst are those stairs with a landing half-way up. Pause for a second, and you can't remember whether you were on the way up, or.....

[Danny42C]

There was a TV Joke some time ago about a high speed chair lift - to get you to the top before you'd forgotten what you came up for !

[DODGYOLDFART]

Almost three decades back I was employed by a British subsidiary of a US arms manufacturer to develop a product for the Star Wars programme. Eventually the system all came together and it was time to carry out a live function test in the States. I was required to attend along with many other civilian staff from other contractors. I filled in all the necessary paperwork and where it asked for my rank I put "civilian" and sent it off.

Almost by return I had a reply asking me for my ""Military Rank Equivalent" as the word civilian was not good enough. As time was pressing I asked my secretary to find out what they needed and she became even more confused than I was. So I contacted our HR function who in turn contacted the parent company HR function in the States. Eventually I had a conversation with a nice chap from HR, USA who suggested I put down "Colonel". His reasoning was that "they don't tend to argue about status with foreign colonels".

Whilst on the trip I was really well looked after though I noticed that several of the other contractors did not fair so well. I have often wondered what these guys put down as their equivalent military rank!:D

[The Oberon]

Almost three decades back I was employed by a British subsidiary of a US arms manufacturer to develop a product for the Star Wars programme. Eventually the system all came together and it was time to carry out a live function test in the States. I was required to attend along with many other civilian staff from other contractors. I filled in all the necessary paperwork and where it asked for my rank I put "civilian" and sent it off.

Almost by return I had a reply asking me for my ""Military Rank Equivalent" as the word civilian was not good enough. As time was pressing I asked my secretary to find out what they needed and she became even more confused than I was. So I contacted our HR function who in turn contacted the parent company HR function in the States. Eventually I had a conversation with a nice chap from HR, USA who suggested I put down "Colonel". His reasoning was that "they don't tend to argue about status with foreign colonels".

Whilst on the trip I was really well looked after though I noticed that several of the other contractors did not fair so well. I have often wondered what these guys put down as their equivalent military rank!:D

Quite true DOF, I knew an ex-ranker Vulcan AEO named Colin ******, the name tag on his flying suit had the shortened version and read Col ******, he always got more respect than others when transiting the USA.

[Hydromet]

DODGYOLDFART, I must tell my daughter that. She is a civilian on an o/s posting with our defence dept., and I'm sure the question will come up at some stage.

Interesting how confusion can arise with overseas ranks. Had a chaplain (rank of captain, 3 pips) who was often mistaken for for an American 3*** by Saigon bar girls.

[Haraka]

A very good friend of mine , sadly now deceased, was commissioned from the ranks and went to Washington on a liaison visit as a rather mature Flying Officer. He was bemused to discover how deferential his treatment was, especially at social events out of uniform.
He later discovered that" Fg.Offr." had been transcribed as "Flag Officer" by his hosts.

[BEagle]

Quite true DOF, I knew an ex-ranker Vulcan AEO named Colin ******, the name tag on his flying suit had the shortened version and read Col ******, he always got more respect than others when transiting the USA.

A dapper little Scots chap with a moustache - and an excellent AEO! More respect than the rest of our crew in the USA? Not really - but the Spams were often taken in when we called him Colonel.

Diverted to Kinloss once after unexpected heavy snow in Lincilnshire - he was wearing a spare immersion suit which had no name tag, just 'Spare size nn, sock size 8' on a dinghy orange patch on the left tit. We had no other kit with us, so he was rather unimpressed when we grabbed him and changed the 's' in 'sock' to a 'C' - and added an inches sign. The occupants of the pub we found thought it was rather amusing though - especially the women!

[dctyke]

When coming out of Incerlik HQ a whole sqn of the newly arrived Prowler aircrew were brought to attention for me by their CO. After returning the salute I went over to him and explained I was a WO so it was not required. In a soft southern drawl he replied. Hell, you've obviously done the time and have the best badge I've ever seen so in my book you deserve it.

[goudie]

In '64 I was in Malawi with 4 32 Sqdn Canberras to do the flypast on Independence day. Myself and another corporal were putting the a/c 'to bed' for the night (still wearing our flying suits), when up marched 4 subalterns from the Kings Own African Rifles. They stamped to a halt a few yards away and giving an immaculate salute one said 'sir may we look round the aircraft'? Well we showed them round and eventually with another smart salute and a 'thank you sir', off they marched. On the way back to our residence we bumped into our CO. When we told him what had happened he laughed and said 'army subalterns saluting and calling my corporals 'sir', sounds about right to me'.

[The Oberon]

A dapper little Scots chap with a moustache - and an excellent AEO! More respect than the rest of our crew in the USA? Not really - but the Spams were often taken in when we called him Colonel.

Diverted to Kinloss once after unexpected heavy snow in Lincilnshire - he was wearing a spare immersion suit which had no name tag, just 'Spare size nn, sock size 8' on a dinghy orange patch on the left tit. We had no other kit with us, so he was rather unimpressed when we grabbed him and changed the 's' in 'sock' to a 'C' - and added an inches sign. The occupants of the pub we found thought it was rather amusing though - especially the women!
No 'tache when I knew him Beags, he also had a serving identical twin brother. They would visit each other and cause confusion wherever they went. His brother would visit the station barber and Colin would go 5 mins after his brother left. Similar confusion in the airman's mess when visiting the servery.

[Dougie M]

Never underestimate the effect of the full UK coat of arms on the shoulders of Master Aircrew. On a Red Flag detachment an off duty crew thought it a good idea to invoke the "visiting Brit" ploy to follow the Flight Eng and Loadie and play the Desert Inn golf course (now sadly gone). They were rebuffed at reception as being too low grade to grace the upper class sward of the club. The Captain ,Copilot and Nav were however informed that General Johnson and General ****** were already on the course. One can only wonder how the other players welcomed being addressed by "General" Johnson as "Bonny Lad" and watch him enjoy his essential "fag break" at the end of each hole.

[Jimlad1]

.

Just to turn the tables, what are your thoughts regarding a Superintendent in the Police becoming a direct entrant Group Captain and having command of a flying station?

TN.

I note that military resettlement encourages people to head off in all manner of interesting posts, expecting to land highly paid roles in organisations with which they have no direct prior experience. Yet suggest the reverse to the military and you'd think you were suggesting the end of civilisation as we know it :-)

[goudie]

In the early 70s the RAF recruited some senior managers from RR. The CO on Brit Servicing line was one such chap, straight in as a Sqdn. Ldr I believe. It was just before I and quite a few other c/techs were talking voluntary retirement. I recall him remarking 'that all the chaps with any get up and go, were going!'

[NutLoose]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Basil http://www.pprune.org/images/buttons/viewpost.gif (http://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/592238-commissioned-ranks.html#post9709312)
...
The only thing I remember was the procedure for removing a misfire which had jammed in the rifling. ... http://cdn.pprune.org/images/smilies/evil.gif

So what was the procedure? A long cleaning rod and a big hammer? Chippy was, if the carts failed, and you couldn't get them out, to rotated the breach to a position where the engine wouldn't fire then give them a whack.


..

[NutLoose]

In the early 70s the RAF recruited some senior managers from RR. The CO on Brit Servicing line was one such chap, straight in as a Sqdn. Ldr I believe. It was just before I and quite a few other c/techs were talking voluntary retirement. I recall him remarking 'that all the chaps with any get up and go, were going!' That wouldn't surprise me, we had a BAe apprentice who's claim to fame was when drilling out a screw, his boss was surprised to see the drill bit appear through the roof of the undercarriage bay skin :E

[Pontius Navigator]

It is the pay grade that you should work to

At Waddo a flt lt and a ch tech both applied for jobs with a computer company. They were both successful but the ch tech got a sqn ldr equivalent and she was somewhat further down the tree.

[Tashengurt]

Other than for social or ceremonial purposes I think there's limited benefit in trying to equate Police and military ranks given that they gain their authority from very different sources.
As for commissioning from the ranks I tended to find that the often quoted empathy for lower ranks etc was a very perishable trait.
It was always the police ethos of course, that everyone came from 'the ranks' this was viewed at essential because everyone, regardless of rank, is first and foremost the Queens Constable and they should know what that means and how to use that authority. The latest idea that people can be 'parachuted' in at a higher rank flies in the face of this.
A cynic may surmise that this is more about eroding the culture of policing that improving leadership.
There's a tendency to believe that Policing can be run like a business with measured inputs and outcomes and staff who can go from job to job as though on a production line. That's not the case. Policing is a job with a range of tasks as wide as all humanity can think of. An officer can in one shift go from chasing noisy kids out of a park to taking a Burglary report to giving first aid to a stabbed and dying teenager. If that seems fanciful to anyone it's not. I did it on 3rd May 2007 and it remains with me to this day. You don't just clock out from days like that. I struggle to see how many coming from an outside industry will get that.

[Danny42C]

"...The rank is but the guinea's stamp, The Man's the gowd for a' that..." (Burns)

[rolling20]

I remember when I joined the UAS in 81, a girl behind me in the queue was rather incredulous that she was not allowed in. 'Write to your MP' , said the adj. Today women are front line pilots and hold senior posts, so that barrier has gone. Now, when will the RAF be pulled up on its age limits for pilots? Aside of age and fitness for fast jet pilots, why does the RAF not take 30-50 something's for multi engine or rotary pilots? An ageism case can't be too far away surely?

[Barksdale Boy]

Thread drift, but:

Reference to Red Flag and the Desert Inn reminds me of a round of golf played there in late '79 on a night Red Flag designated for budgetary reasons Red Flag 80/1. We changed into appropriate kit in the locker room and the attendant said he would shine our shoes, with the exception of my splendidly scuffed Hush Puppies, which he deemed beyond redemption. Our captain, a distinguished rifleman from Belfast, drove off and sliced into some very upmarket real estate. For the next few days we lived in fear of local headlines saying "Plastic surgeon killed by errant golf shot - small British golf ball found near body". Presumably Statute of Limitations now applies.

[xenolith]

Does the RAF still commission W.O.s to Flt Lt after a short kfs course? Was the experiment successful?

[Pontius Navigator]

Big chief, small pond

Little fish, big lond

[Danny42C]

xenolith (#63),

Don't know, but in 1954 at Thornaby a W.O. was commissioned as a Flying Officer (SOP). In 1960 I met him again at Rheindalen as a Squadron Leader. Must have had accelerated promotion to Flight Lieutenant.

Danny42C.

[MPN11]

Thread drift, but:

... Our captain, a distinguished rifleman from Belfast, drove off and sliced into some very upmarket real estate. For the next few days we lived in fear of local headlines saying "Plastic surgeon killed by errant golf shot - small British golf ball found near body". Presumably Statute of Limitations now applies.

DC, I presume?

[Pontius Navigator]

Danny, WO to Flt Lt was quite the norm except they still had to do the full brain adjustment at Cranwell. Did your WO do the full course?

No, what xenolith was asking was a scheme that came in around 2000 where the Cranwell course was about a week involving not much more than a new uniform and signing the papers. There were fairly tight age limits, time in rank, manning requirements etc. I think there was also a very tight limit on numbers. Typical shoe-ins were WO-PSF where they essentially just changed offices and carried on.

[Barksdale Boy]

MPN 11

The very same.

[ancientaviator62]

PN,
I was a MACR when I did the 'full brain adjustment course' at Cranwell.
I was commissioned as a F/O and in common with most of my ilk had to wait for promotion to F/L. We had a recoursed (injury) Student Officer (degree entry) who had been there long enough to 'merit' promotion to F/L ! Bonkers system IMHO.

[Fixed Cross]

In Jan 1964 I was commissioned as a Plt Off after 7 years in the ranks.Three months later a new QR introduced a provision to grant half of non commissioned time as seniority subject to a back dating no earlier than an individuals 21st birthday. Consequently I became an immediate Fg Off. In addition a minimum time of 2 years commissioned service from your actual date of commissioning was applied and, if you had passed the "B" promotion exam, you were immediately promoted to Flt Lt. In my case (and many others) our seniority as Flt Lt was 1 Apr 66 (the significance of the date was not lost on anyone).

Thereafter further promotion followed the normal path but I was aquainted with some ex-rankers who went from airman service to Sqn Ldr in 8 years.

[Pontius Navigator]

AA62, indeed EFV was in the same boat and hated it, especially the way he was treated by one of the distaff who had been a MACR mate on the same Sqn. OK, no favouritism, but there should be decent limits. I was always treated fairly, harsh at times but more relaxed at others.

We had a university flt Lt, rare at the time. He made sqn ldr in 10 years.

[Wander00]

On our Gnat course in 1966 we had a graduate student who was a flt ltr, the rest of us were all plt offs ex the Towers or BFTS

[Tankertrashnav]

On my nav course we had a university grad who was a chopped pilot, and had thus been in long enough to advance to flight lieutenant. One of our ground staff instructors was a flying officer educator, and as was the convention was addressed as "sir" by all students, irrespective of rank. Thus you had the bizarre situation of a flying officer being addressed as "sir" by a flight lieutenant.

[goudie]

TTN respect for the status.s as and instructor rather than his rank. In my RAF rugby playing days it was quite normal to address the ref as 'sir' so you had flt lt's, for example addressing a sgt as sir.

[Danny42C]

Thanks, chaps - I've learned a lot ! All through my "career" (?), flying instructors were addressed as "sir", no matter what the disparity in rank.
I myself went from Sergeant Pilot to Pilot Officer painlessly (without benefit of OCTU) - see my Post:"Danny has Greatness Thrust upon Him" ("Pilot's Brevet" Thread, Page 131, #2612). Excerpt:

..."Up to then, I'd been quite content to remain an NCO. I'd been a bit disappointed when I got my wings without even having been considered for a commission. But I'd settled down and, had I stayed in the UK, would have hoped, had I lived (more than doubtful), to rise to Flight Sergeant * (one year) and Warrant Officer (two years) on time promotion. But this latest business seemed most unfair.

[Note *: My crown was two weeks overdue - never did get the money ! :{]

I went to see the C.O. "Why not ?" he said wearily, "Everybody else is getting it - I'll put you up" (my misdemeanour at Dum-Dum seemed to have been forgiven). It was a formality from then on. I was called for interview with the AOC of 221 Group in Calcutta, a kindly old AVM (Williams, I think), He satisfied himself that I didn't drop my aitches, and could probably use a knife and fork, and signed me in. Thus are careers made........OCTU ?........ What's that ?"...
Danny.

[Pontius Navigator]

Danny, AVM TM Williams, AHQ Bengal controlled 221 and 224 Gp. AOC 221 Gp was Air Cdre HV Rowley.

[sitigeltfel]

I am currently reading the Biography of Viscount Trenchard, father of the Royal Air Force, and came across this.

"Few ever encountered Trenchards soft side - most would probably deny he had one - but Donald Clappen, a private in the London Scottish Regiment, did.

A week before the battle of Loos, he had gone to watch RFC machines take off and land at an aerodrome near Auchel while his battalion was resting behind the lines. Mad keen on flying, he had qualified as a pilot at the age of 18 and before the war had worked as an apprentice at the Bleriot factory in Hendon and had applied to join the RFC several times, without a response.

As I stood watching the machines landing a General emerged from a tent, and acting on the spur of the moment I asked if I could speak. He looked round, astonished and didn't say anything so I pulled out my papers, explained my story, that I was a qualified pilot and wanted to join the RFC. In a very deep voice, he told another officer to make a note of what I had said. The General then called for transport to take me back to my battalion.. I saluted smartly and later asked the driver who he was. He said I had a nerve approaching him because it was General Trenchard!

Clappen later went "over the top" twice and survived the battle of Loos. A month later he received a telegram telling him to report to the War Office and three weeks later was in the RFC. He eventually rose to the rank of Air Commodore."

[huge72]

Xenolith, I believe that the answer is yes. I was commissioned in 2002 from MACR to Flt Lt on IIRC no 4 WOSP ( Warrant Officer Study Period). The scheme was still going in 2010, the year I retired. The course used to last from Sunday to Friday and was very much on the lines of a grown up discussion. As for a success, several of the course members over the years have continued to progress to Sqn Ldr and I felt it was indeed of value as I went almost straight from Cranwell into the HQ in Oman for the initial push into Afghanistan a real eye opener for an elderly ALM!!!!

[unmanned_droid]

Other than for social or ceremonial purposes I think there's limited benefit in trying to equate Police and military ranks given that they gain their authority from very different sources.
As for commissioning from the ranks I tended to find that the often quoted empathy for lower ranks etc was a very perishable trait.
It was always the police ethos of course, that everyone came from 'the ranks' this was viewed at essential because everyone, regardless of rank, is first and foremost the Queens Constable and they should know what that means and how to use that authority. The latest idea that people can be 'parachuted' in at a higher rank flies in the face of this.
A cynic may surmise that this is more about eroding the culture of policing that improving leadership.
There's a tendency to believe that Policing can be run like a business with measured inputs and outcomes and staff who can go from job to job as though on a production line. That's not the case. Policing is a job with a range of tasks as wide as all humanity can think of. An officer can in one shift go from chasing noisy kids out of a park to taking a Burglary report to giving first aid to a stabbed and dying teenager. If that seems fanciful to anyone it's not. I did it on 3rd May 2007 and it remains with me to this day. You don't just clock out from days like that. I struggle to see how many coming from an outside industry will get that.

They can't. A financial director parachuted in to a Superintendent position gets managing money but can never understand why nothing is consistent, no matter what kind of stupid sh*t they put in place to try and ensure it.

Police work has a higher entropy than other military and emergency services and certainly way above any other type of job.

Whilst I am not a police officer my father and brother are. It's just crazy sometimes.

Frankly I don't know what's worse - the fast track brown nosing sleazeballs (personal experience of one in particular) or the rabbit in a headlight parachuted in 'managers'.

[lasernigel]

My Mother's cousin ("Uncle Joe") Joe Matthews, flunked at Cranwell I think and was an AC2. He went through Halton, became involved in radar at it's outset, got his commission during the war, finally retired from SHAPE HQ as an Air Commodore, which I think pretty good going. He then went to BAE and after 10 years retired to Canada. Sadly he passed away a few years ago.

[NRU74]

My Mother's cousin ("Uncle Joe") Joe Matthews,

Was he the Joe Matthews born in British Guiana whose family then went to Canada ?

[Exnomad]

National Service in 1951, at Padgate told aircrew vacancies, volunteered, and AC2 became Aircrew Cadet with white flash in hat. 12 hours in Tiger Moths, then 60 hours in Chipmunk, then found could not fly Oxfords well enough for the Powers that be, and ended up a Navigator, and end of course became fully commissioned Pilot Officer

[Danny42C]

Exnomad (#82),

Seem to remember hearing that NS had, as a condition for acceptance for training as pilots, to undertake a period of R.Aux.A.F. service after NS. Any truth in this ?

Much good would the Oxfords have done you ! They were used as the lead-in to the Meteors and Vampires we were flying at the time (Harvards would've been a lot better). We had a NS chap on 608 Squadron who came through like that as late as 1954. Heard about him many years later as a 1st/off on BA 747s.

Danny.

[Pontius Navigator]

Danny, Oxford asymmetric, Meteor? Harvard fine for Vampire

[kenparry]

Seem to remember hearing that NS had, as a condition for acceptance for training as pilots, to undertake a period of R.Aux.A.F. service after NS. Any truth in this ?

Correct. I think it was 5 years, subject to being within a reasonable travelleing distance of one of the Sqns. All came to an end with the Sandys review, which, among other things, disbanded all the (20?) R Aux A F fighter units.

[Danny42C]

Pontius Nav (#84),

Yes, I suppose that was the official thinking. But when it comes to asymmetric handing, and never having flown an Oxford (or any other twin except the Meteor), would suppose that it would be as a pussycat to a sabre-tooth tiger !

The accident figures for the Meteor in the early fifties bear out the point. Oxford or no Oxford, the Meteor was a hand (or rather leg) ful for anyone, and too much for some !

Danny.

[Danny42C]

kenparry (#85),

Thanks for the confirmation !,
... which, among other things, disbanded all the (20?) R Aux A F fighter units....
A shame ! They formed a large proportion of our fighter strength and were reckoned as efficient as regular Squadrons. But I suppose we couldn't afford to replace their Vampires with Hunters (or whaiever).

End of an era !

Danny.

[Pontius Navigator]

Danny which raises the question, how many aircraft crashed in practice asymmetric compared with the number of actual asymmetric landings. Not just Meteor but Canberra, Vulcan and even Valletta.

[Danny42C]

Pontius Nav (#88),

Can't answer for the rest, but I did my Meteor conversion at Driffield in January, 1950 (in the midst of the carnage).

The buzz was that asymmetric training had been done (even solo) with one flamed-out (it would be "more realistic" and encourage Bloggs to give of his best). Results were as you might expect. Then some bright statistician in Air Ministry (as then was) noticed that the accident rate per 10,000 hrs from this training alone exceeded the Derwent failure rate over the same period. ......

So, if we suspended "live" asymmetric training, and simply accepted that everybody with an engine failure would crash, we would still be better off. This Could Not Be: the fiat went out that in future the "dead" engine would in fact only be pulled back to Flight Idle (8,000 rpm as I recall). Happily this had come into force before I came on the scene.

The accident rate dropped (but was still horrendous - there was a Thread about Meteor Casualties a while back on this Forum) - perhaps the most spectacular being the Tale of the Middleton Ghost. This chap, having got it down very fast, and well up the runway, and realising that he was going to go off the end, elected to "give it the gun and go around". (Or at least, that is assumed as being the only credible explanation of what happened - he did not live long enough to tell anyone what was in his mind).

So although he banged both open, the "dead" engine (think it was No.2) was only slowly spooling-up while No.1 was up to full bore, he went roaring off across country to his right around the camp. Miraculously, he missed all solid obstacles until he got to the Officer's Mess. Now the long arm of coincidence is stretched beyond all belief.

His own room was on the ground floor on the outside of the West (?) Wing of the Mess. He went in through the window, then the great battering rams on each side went through the brickwork, the unsupported concrete lintel and a load of bricks "fell on his swede" * - and killed him

Note *: words of John Henderson, in the Tower at the time, later SATCO (Civil) at Teesside Airport. We had been Controllers together in Strubby years before.

Place is now "St. George's Hotel". Ghost is said to haunt West Wing corridors at night.

Bit of local colour, Danny.

[Fareastdriver]

two 'dead' engines killed a Vulcan on the overshoot

If that was in about 1963 that was my ex-flight commander on Valiants who went on to be a squadron commander on Vulcan 2s. There was never a problem with two out on one side with the Valiants or Vulcan/Victor Mk1s. This thinking went over to the Mk2s and the fact that the power of two engines on one side could overcome the rudder at low speed were not picked up during its flight testing or Boscombe Down when it was cleared for service. It was only after this accident that the problem was established.

Sqn Ldr/Wg Cdr Baker was the best flight commander I ever knew.

[Fareastdriver]

My father joined the RAF as a Brat at Henlow in about 1928. He was trained on instruments and radios and I believe he ended up as aircrew in that trade. This is a picture of the infant Fareastdriver with his parents circa late 1940.

What puzzles me is the brevet he was wearing.

Later on he was accepted for pilot training at a very late age, around 29/30 and went to Pensicola to train with the US Navy on both wheels and floats. He was commissioned and returned to do the Heavy Bomber Conversion Course and ended up on Coastal Command Halifaxs doing the Atlantic weather sampling.

[ValMORNA]

Fed,


It appears to my jaundiced eyes as an 'AG' brevet, ergo, Wop/AG.

[langleybaston]

But no WOP flashes on the arms?

[oxenos]

two 'dead' engines killed a Vulcan on the overshoot.

And a Victor at Wyton in '73

[ACW418]

FED and PN,

I don't think that gives a true representation of the facts. I was a brand new co-pilot and arrived at Coningsby about a month before the accident and took a very real interest in what had happened. AFAIR there was no question of Wg Cdr Baker overshooting but the co-pilot did so because of the goldfish bowl effect of a starlit night. Wg Cdr Baker ejected with the controls column still in his hand as they found the feel relief button embedded in his left hand. Regrettably no-one survived.

ACW

[The Nip]

Does the RAF still commission W.O.s to Flt Lt after a short kfs course? Was the experiment successful?

There is a new 'stream' of commissioning for WOs. This will entail an executive course followed by auto promotion on completion to Sqn Ldr.

[langleybaston]

That is fair does. The army introduced that some time ago I believe., RSM to Major.

[BlackadderIA]

There is a new 'stream' of commissioning for WOs. This will entail an executive course followed by auto promotion on completion to Sqn Ldr.

The old kfs Course for Warrant Officers (and very rarely Flight Sergeants) still exists and runs alongside the executive stream course that leads to accelerated promotion to Sqn Ldr (project TITAN). You have to be in a designated Titan post for a tour beforehand though (think CASWO, SWO, trade sponsor or a squadron warrant).

The NCA often put people through the kfs course to get much needed WSOs while they still have no training pipeline.

[lasernigel]

Was he the Joe Matthews born in British Guiana whose family then went to Canada ?

Not sure about that. He had a lot of links to my Mother's family in Stockport. He was CO of Medmenham for a while.

[The Oberon]

I left in the mid eighties and in those days it was the norm that after commissioning from the ranks, you never went back to where you came from. This gave you the chance to establish yourself as an officer and to avoid any piss taking from your previous colleagues. Is this still the case in the present day, much smaller RAF?

In 22 years non commissioned service I knew of several ex colleagues who were commissioned but I only ever bumped into 3, 2 aircrew and 1 engineer.

[ian16th]

I left in the mid eighties and in those days it was the norm that after commissioning from the ranks, you never went back to where you came from. This gave you the chance to establish yourself as an officer and to avoid any piss taking from your previous colleagues. Is this still the case in the present day, much smaller RAF?

In 1956 it was normal for that reason to get posted, on promotion from J/T to Cpl.

[Wander00]

However, I recall two FS QFIs who on commissioning were not only posted back to Cranwell, but back to 1 Sqn on the waterfront, which they had left only weeks before.

[Pontius Navigator]

Ian, iirc, in mid 60s it was given as one of reasons for posting of an airman.

[goudie]

Well, as a j/t promoted to cpl, I went from working in the pleasant air-conditioned gin palace to the reformed 617 Sqdn, on the other side of the airfield! Rather longer hours in all weathers but some choice dets. and working on the Vulcan, made up for it.

[The Oberon]

In 1956 it was normal for that reason to get posted, on promotion from J/T to Cpl.

Things must have changed with regard to normal promotion. In the late 60s I went from J/T to Cpl. without a move, Akrotiri, and in the early 70s, at Scampton, went from Cpl. to Sgt. without a move, in both cases I stayed in the same section.

[Haraka]

In 1975 we had a Warrant Officer Ph. Int. commissioned and then posted back to the same unit at Coningsby .

[Janda]

I was accepted for commissioning whilst serving on 8 Squadron at Lossiemouth. Before leaving to head for Cranwell the Squadron Boss asked if I would consider returning after completing the course. I was more than happy to do so and I was well accepted back by all. It at least ensured me of a flying tour post commissioning whilst most of the other SNCO aircrew guys went to ground tours after commissioning.

[ancientaviator62]

I too went back to my former unit (38 Gp EU) after my IOT course. I actually knew I was going there before I left for IOT assuming of course that I passed.
As a J/T when I was promoted to Cpl I remained on 92 Sqn. Made sense as I already had an 'oversigning' chit and was now to be paid for that job !

[Slow Biker]

I was informed of promotion to WO on a Friday afternoon. On the following Monday morning I filled the vacant WO post on the sqn, a move of about 20 yards.

[JAVELINBOY]

In my time the Police service was the same, promotion never at your own station although there were some rare exceptions. I covered one of four vacancies at my station as an acting Sergeant for over two years but despite applying for substantive promotion never got one of those vacancies. It was only when I applied for a post elsewhere I got the promotion. Not long after it all changed and people began getting promoted at home stations.

[Fitter2]

Whereas in the lower strata of the RAF, another stripe was just a pay rise with little change in work area. Kuching, 1964, a quick flip-flops off, socks, sandals shirt and hat on, handshake by the boss, and back to work as a new corporal. Similar at Coltishall 1968, collect stripes from stores, move kit into Sergeants' Mess and back to the hangar (although informed I was now in charge of nights rectification).

[Danny42C]

As comparisons have been made with the Police service, perhaps you might be interested in how H.M. Customs & Excise dealt with the problem - or did before they were forcibly merged with the upstart Inland Revnue (whose Board dates back only to 1849 [Wiki], whereas we went back to Charles I). I don't know what they do now. On retirement from the RAF, I eked out my Pension with them as a VAT Inspector (boo !) for 13 years.

The scheme was this, first you had to be put on a "Vetted List" for promotion (by your superiors). Armed with this, you scanned a monthly (?) sort of AMO, which listed (inter alia) all the impending vacancies in the rank to which you aspired. Seeing one in a locality which was not vetoed by SWMBO, you applied for it. Then it was pot luck. If there was an applicant already of that rank (level transfer), he would get it. If not, and if you were the senior applicant in the junior rank, it was yours. Rarely, if ever, did a senior Post "come up for grabs!" in the place you were already serving.

Once "in post", you had "parson's freehold" it was yours till you died (or committed murder, or retired). All Customs Officers dreamt of "the little distillery in the glen" somewhere in the Highlands, where they could live tranquilly as part of the village triumvirage of leaders (Doctor, Parson and Exciseman) their whole lives through. :ok:

Now the devilish ingenuity of this arrangement came to light. You were moving to "suit yourself" weren't you ? (either to get a nicer spot [level transfer] or to get promotion). So why should the Board pay the expenses of your move ? - "You're on your own, mate !" My two moves (to take up first appointment in Manchester, and a year later a level transfer to Middlesbrough, plus new car, and my Lump Sum had "gone with the wind" !

Danny. :(

[AARON O'DICKYDIDO]

You were moving to "suit yourself" weren't you ? (either to get a nicer spot [level transfer] or to get promotion). So why should the Board pay the expenses of your move ? - "You're on your own, mate !"

Sounds just like the MoD CS today.

Aaron.

[gopher01]

During my visits to Lyneham over the years I knew of an airman who went from Cpl to F/Sgt without moving from the station, the added complication was that his surname was Sergeant lead to some interesting complications over the years I knew him! We also had a Herc G/E commissioned who had had a fairly lively social life over the years as a G/E and was rather put out to find out some years later, when he returned as O/C Eng H/Q Flight, under whose remit the G/Es lived, that a number of us who had worked alongside him were still doing the job so his exploits were still there in the " do you remember when" story mode!

[Onceapilot]

"No sir, my name is Major". :D

OAP

[Pontius Navigator]

I'm not Sqn Leader I am Wg Cdr Leader

*don't know if he actually made it

[Haraka]

Sign outside a shared office in MoD many years ago....

Sqn.Ldr. Down
Flt. Lt. Underdown

[Pontius Navigator]

Not Wood and Underwood?

[Vortex_Generator]

I know a Captain Sergeant. He'll probably be Major Sergeant one day. He used to be Sergeant Major Sergeant!

[Pontius Navigator]

Or I think 43, flying officers maybe but his about SAC Officer?

If he had gone to IOT he could have been Officer Cadet Officer or Cadet Officer2 and then all the way through pilot to flying officer.

[Maxibon]

I'm not Sqn Leader I am Wg Cdr Leader

*don't know if he actually made it

I bumped into him at Lossie a few years back and he was still a Flt Lt.

In a very fine cavalry regiment in which I served, we had an LE officer whose surname was Major; from a cav perspective, it was confusing all his career: Corporal Major (HCav thing), Sergeant Major, Staff Sergeant Major, Sergeant Major Major, eventually to Major Major.

[Haraka]

Not Wood and Underwood?


There was also a Sqn Ldr. Hill and a Flt. Lt. Underhill sharing an office some years later. .....
But this drifts toward another thread: of name games :)

[Danny42C]

"Not Wood and Underwood and Under Milk Wood ?"

[Pontius Navigator]

Maxibon, possibly the son. Mine a sqn ldr in '64

[langleybaston]

and there was a certain Bastard of course.

[kaitakbowler]

LGA Bastard Stn Cdr Cottesmore 1969, later secretary(?) at the RAFYC on the Hamble. Didn't he have a son called Robin(?). :rolleyes:

[langleybaston]

sounds like a solicitor or an estate agent!

[MPN11]

On my promotion to sqn ldr I returned to Eastern Radar after a gap of just 3 years. In those days MATO tour lengths were undefined, so it was not surprising that many (most?) of my fellow JOs from my first tour were still there. They were very decent about never mentioning my past indiscretions, of which there had been a few :)

[longer ron]

LGA Bastard Stn Cdr Cottesmore 1969, later secretary(?) at the RAFYC on the Hamble. Didn't he have a son called Robin(?). :rolleyes:

That was the joke at Cottesmore - here comes Gp Capt B***ard and his son Robin.
He was (in earlier life - Sqn Ldr ?) the pilot of that nice Canberra photo where it is photographed from above - rolling inverted over a snowy landscape (lovely picture :))

[Melchett01]

There was a ground branch officer going by the name of Plt Off Darling on 617 Sqn a fair few years back, early-mid 90s IIRC. Unfortunately for him, he decided to seek pastures new and transferred to the Army and became Captain Darling.

Just as a certain TV series was becoming far more popular and mainstream!

[NutLoose]

I went from SAC on My FT course and came back as a JT which was unusual, I was due to go into ASF as it was, but my boss kicked up a stink as he had requested I was posted back to the station and then after a chat to Eng wing got me back on same shift and same desk as whence I departed 9 months earlier. Most were posted elsewhere.

We had a Bob Vere who's father was called Percy by his granddad as he took a while to conceive.

[Blacksheep]

eventually to Major Major.As in "Catch 22" where Major Major was permanently stuck at that rank - and was only "In" when he was out and "Out" whenever he was in.

[Pontius Navigator]

MPN, my second plotted on Vulcans had been promoted while on 139 and not posted till they disbanded. While he was happy to remain as Frank in the crew room in private, one 'mate' would insist on calling him Frank in public. It was embarrassing to all when Frank had to admonish him.

[rolling20]

Getting back to the original thread.... Our adj was a Sergeant rear gunner on Lancs and flew with the CO on 49 Squadron. A couple of colonials in the crew got put up for commissions and accepted. He asked the CO about a commission for himself and when he was telling me the story, gave the CO's reply in his best clipped tone: 'Err wait until you've done a few more trips'. Apparently the CO wasn't too keen on NCO pilots, so he was probably even less keen on NCO gunners asking for a commission. As far as I know he never was commissioned until after he was posted out, having been on the squadron for a year, which was some achievement back in 42-3!