AFPRB

[Jumping_Jack]

So, are we going to have a 'sweep' on the release date of the AFPRB17 report? I wager it will be released on the Brexit announcement date, unless there is a significant UK atrocity in the meantime. Either would swamp it out of the news.....:hmm:

[jayc530]

Mon 20 Mar. 😉

[Just This Once...]

Hardly merits being buried on a suitable competing news day. The annual reduction in real-terms salary is a well worn path, as is the narrative from the supporting cast.

The AFPRB will point a finger at the MOD for non-renumeration issues that influence retention issues and probably moan at MOD for not producing all the reports and staff work that it asked for even though they promptly ignored when setting the 1% rise. The defence leadership already has its funding based on a presumed 1% rise (set last year) and is already reeling from defence inflation being way higher than anticipated, so will not be asking for anything else that may damage the books further.

Politicians will champion the 2% of GDP figure (however derived or however meaningless) and point at those in defence who are lucky enough to get an increment above and beyond the 1%. Meanwhile the Treasury will either grab the 'lower growth/lower inflation, so spend less on wages' argument or the other one, used in better times, 'higher growth/higher inflation so spend less on wages to reduce inflationary pressures'.

Rinse and repeat.

[Stuff]

JTO just saved us 117 pages of reading. That's the entire AFPRB neatly summed up in one post.

[4everAD]

We could talk instead about how we're going to spend our 1%, oh hang inflation has spent it before we get it!

[Melchett01]

Aren't garage charges are the traditional way of spending the 1% rise?

[Party Animal]

Could be interesting though with new flying pay structures versus reserved rights etc., plus beanstealers having to pay to live in during the week?

[theboywide]

So, minor quibble here, but I've chatted to the AFPRB a couple of times and they always say that they report 1% because that's what the government has set.

Shouldn't an independant body report what they feel we should be awarded, independent of government direction, and then allow the government to reduce that award based on available funds.

How independant is a body when, if the answer is not 1%, the chairman loses his job (as in the 1.5% X factor rise recommended a couple of years back)

[Biggus]

There's no I in AFPRB!

[Professor Plum]

this link.....

https://www.gov.uk/government/organisations/armed-forces-pay-review-body

If you scroll down to the "what we do" section, it states that the afprb provides independent advice to the PM. I don't understand how it could possibly be independent, if the chairman can get sacked for providing "independent advice" which is anything other than the 1% the government wants to award.

[M1key]

Requesting Monday 20th March please at the very latest...

[jayc530]

Mon 20th at the earliest. 😉

[Bannock]

I think some people are in for a pleasant surprise. On the other hand some people are in for a shocker.
The letter link below offers the AFPRB leeway on targeted pay rises above the 1% in trades that are hurting (who isn"t). Previous treasury guidance has been quite clear, in fact an out right order to remain at 1%.

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/539366/CST_letter_to_AFPRB_chair.pdf

[Just This Once...]

It reaffirms the decoupling of average pay from inflation, recruitment and retention rates - until at least 2020. One wonders if the damage will be recoverable from that point, even if the cap is relaxed.

Anyway, I do like the humour in a note that refers to independent advice on pay, as long as the independent answer is 1%. Not applying a 1% rise in one area will provide very little additional headroom in pinch-point areas and I wonder if the corrosive effect it would make it worthwhile.

[Melchett01]

Come on guys, it's 1% and be grateful. The Treasury has to be able to pay for the MPs' 1.3% rise somehow. I mean, that 10% rise the other year really put a dent in their ability to pay the rest of the public sector a proper rise. There has to be restraint somewhere in the system.

[Harley Quinn]

To add some balance. For the majority, it's more than 1% due to yearly increments.......

Pay16 changed that, not to mention dropping the armourers a pay level.

[Ken Scott]

Thanks high spirits for reminding us! My last increment was about 1.2% of my pay so with the last annual rise an impressive 2.2% for the year. RPI for the year to Jan was 2.6% so still a pay cut. But less of a pay cut than it would have been.

Anyone remember when we last had a real terms pay rise or even an inflation matching one?

[Door Slider]

3.2% for Officers and SNCOs and 3.7% for juniors in 2003.

[Just This Once...]

To add some balance. For the majority, it's more than 1% due to yearly increments.......
I covered this excuse earlier but for balance quite a few of us are at a band ceiling, those on promotion find the value of that jump reduced, others are on the new mark-time post promotion whilst others are frozen due to the new (but not improved) pay structure swindle.

Of those who will get an incremental progression are unlikely to find that it covers the increase in charges let alone inflation or, god forbid, average earnings index. This will be the 14th year in a row that military real-terms pay has been cut. Fourteen years. I would suggest that the vast majority serving in the Armed Forces have served less than 14 years, so have only ever known pay austerity.

[Shackman]

1971 to 1972 - three pay rises totalling nearly 25%. First in April 71 (a 'normal' one), then an Interim one on Sep/Oct and another (of between 5 and 11%) the following April. Unfortunately as usual all the other charges went up as well.

[Jumping_Jack]

.....not forgetting that NEM has removed an increment level........

[Moi/]

I would be happy for the AFPRB to remove the 1-2 year waiting before starting the increment process, they can keep the 1%.

[Ken Scott]

3.2% for Officers and SNCOs and 3.7% for juniors in 2003.

RPI for 2003 was 2.8% so just inflation busting for officers & SNCOs, a little better for ORs.

[The B Word]

Then again, if it fails to keep pace with market rate we will lose highly and expensively trained professionals,

Which is exactly what is happening. Rumours are that the aircrew branch will be in deficit by a few hundred by 2020 - and that is before all the quarters get allegedly sold off in 2021 when the Annington Homes contract matures!!!

[Melchett01]

Which is exactly what is happening. Rumours are that the aircrew branch will be in deficit by a few hundred by 2020 - and that is before all the quarters get allegedly sold off in 2021 when the Annington Homes contract matures!!!

Didn't the recent Future Accommodation Model result suggest that there was limited desire to live on base by choice? IIRC, living in a military community, what I understood to mean living in base, wasn't rated particularly highly which may just encourage the MOD to divest as much of their housing stock as they can. It will probably be a bit like PAYD, with the MOD saying they asked and were responding to personnels' comcerns/wishes.

Also, am I right in thinking that whilst pay and allowances move by wage growth / CPI, charges move by RPI? Am sure I read that somewhere recently, just can't quite place it.

[Pontius Navigator]

1971 to 1972 - three pay rises totalling nearly 25%. First in April 71 (a 'normal' one), then an Interim one on Sep/Oct and another (of between 5 and 11%) the following April. Unfortunately as usual all the other charges went up as well.
However you overlooked the devil in the detail that the MoD missed.

By removing free food and accommodation and increasing pay and introducing charges they made 'food and accommodation' optional and massively increased the pension base.

[RAFpilot23]

The AFPRB are due to publish their report next week. All I can say is they better be thinking ahead because give it 3/5 years and there will be a lot less pilots than they expect.

[dagama]

Aye, it was a good year to leave as my pension was based on the 2003 salary.

[Ken Scott]

Given that mil salaries are now quoted separately as 'core salary' & 'XFactor' (at 14.5%) could we perhaps see the 1% government approved rise applied to the former with a similar reduction in the latter (fewer operational detachments, more stable basing with consequently less upheaval to housing, schooling & spouse employment etc) resulting in a net zero change to the pay bill?

[Jumping_Jack]

:ugh:Ken, if you think folks are going away less you are mistaken. A colleague of mine on the helo force is out of the country for 9 months this year on various exercises and detachments; because they are not classed as 'ops' he gets absolutely no PODL and has been told he will get one day off for the first 6 weekends missed.

[Ken Scott]

I most certainly do not believe that, but public perception Post Herrick & Telic would support that notion and the AFPRB, at government bidding, might put that forward in my opinion - why else has pay been so sub-divided?

[Bob Viking]

Ken Scott.

I can see your point and the military have previous in this regard. RRP (Flying) used to be called flying pay. When you PVR'd you kept it. The change in nomenclature to RRP went mostly unnoticed until a couple of years later when they announced that when you PVR you will lose a large chunk of your RRP since you are no longer being retained.

They are devious gits and nothing is done without reason.

I hope you're wrong though.

BV

[Rotate too late]

Ken Scott.

I can see your point and the military have previous in this regard. RRP (Flying) used to be called flying pay. When you PVR'd you kept it. The change in nomenclature to RRP went mostly unnoticed until a couple of years later when they announced that when you PVR you will lose a large chunk of your RRP since you are no longer being retained.

BV

Indeed, some have withdrawn their services because of that very issue for the last year. I know of at least two or three that were flying in Afghan without flying pay, and at least one who grounded himself. Turns out it left him with a lot of time to prepare for pastures new!

[Jumping_Jack]

Ken, the fact that you don't believe me is irrelevant as it is actually the case. Similarly your perception that because ops have reduced folks are not being dicked about and are spending significant amounts of time away from their families is also irrelevant. Perception and reality are not the same thing.

[Ken Scott]

Jumping Jack: you misunderstand me. I don't Disbelieve you. There are still plenty of operational deployments, particularly for rotary. My comment, 'I certainly don't believe that' referred to your first line, 'if you think folks are going away less...'!

My point was that public perception is that deployments are far fewer than during Herrick & Telic and that it was matters in this regard.

I sincerely hope I'm wrong but as BV points out they like to sneak these subtle changes in until folk are used to them before delivering the bombshell, maybe not this year, but........

[4everAD]

I believe that the way pay is shown is a direct result of the recent pay re-structure (Not so relevant for Officers as they're all on the same regradless of branch). For ORs the supplement you are on has a core value depending on how well/badly your trade scored and x-factor is then added.

As for the proposed pay freeze by removing 1% of X-Factor, it wouldn't be as:
1% of £30,000 (core pay) = £300
14.5% of £30,000 = £4350 then 1% = £43.50

£300-£43.5= £256.5 pay rise instead of £300 (an actual .86% pay rise instead of 1%).

[4everAD]

Now we know the date to bury any bad pay news:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39325561

[Ken Scott]

As for the proposed pay freeze by removing 1% of X-Factor, it wouldn't be as:
1% of £30,000 (core pay) = £300
14.5% of £30,000 = £4350 then 1% = £43.50

£300-£43.5= £256.5 pay rise instead of £300 (an actual .86% pay rise instead of 1%).

I never suggested the figure of 1% off the XFactor, I said 'similar', it would need about a 1.13% reduction to cancel out.

[M1key]

Has anyone seen anything yet? Was convinced (by various personnel) that today was the day. I wonder if there is a last minute change?

[Pontius Navigator]

Maybe the chairman needs time to bed in, oops, I meant member.

Armed Forces' Pay Review Body Appointment:Written statement - HCWS438 - UK Parliament (http://www.parliament.uk/business/publications/written-questions-answers-statements/written-statement/Commons/2017-01-26/HCWS438)

[Stuff]

The Chairman is John Steele and he's been there since 2013. How much more bedding in does he need?

[bunta130]

Really, the whole situation is somewhat of a disgrace. New Food and Accommodation charges commence in a matter of 2 weeks.....and no-one knows what they are yet.

Let alone the good news of another pay drop in real terms.....

And many think we should be grateful...

[Tankertrashnav]

I remember driving home to Swaffham one day in 1973 and hearing on the car radio that the armed forces were getting a 20% pay rise (I think it was).

The bad news was that inflation hit 25% that year!

plus ca change!

[Melchett01]

News channels reporting death of Martin McGuinness. If I were cynical it seems like a good day for a flurry of announcements.

[Moi/]

It will be ready to go, just cant be released to the public. Im sure JPA would have been updated ready for the main pay run.

[EmeraldToilet]

I'm sure there was a post with a document attached that just seemed to vanish.... any thoughts

[Willard Whyte]

Just to 'whet your appetites', inflation, year to Feb '17:

RPI: 3.2% (https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/inflationandpriceindices/timeseries/czbh/mm23)

CPIH: 2.3% (https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/inflationandpriceindices/timeseries/l55o/mm23)

CPI: 2.3% (https://www.ons.gov.uk/economy/inflationandpriceindices/timeseries/d7g7/mm23)

[Rotate]

I'm sure there were a few watching this who saved a copy for posterity! :rolleyes:

It was in the public domain after all!

[MSOCS]

It has clearly been removed, from this and the Retention Review thread which has been quashed. MoD has been in touch with the Mods!

There are copies to be found....

[M1key]

That certainly wasn't what we were expecting.....simply not enough.

[bunta130]

Sounds like too little too late.....and very sensitive. I await formal notification from official channels in short order.....but it would seem that the cat may be out of the bag.

[Common_Sense]

Sorry if I've missed the obvious, but has the AFPRB 2017 report been released? I can't find any details on a google search and I've no access to DII for the next few days. Can somebody PM it to me perhaps?

[bunta130]

Nothing as yet I'm afraid....nada.....zilch....distressingly....

[bunta130]

I'd be very interested in its contents, even a precis! However, if it has been leaked, then that is poor form.....

[Pure Pursuit]

It was reference to the new RRP (F)...

It's certainly doing the rounds.

[Willard Whyte]

Sorry if I've missed the obvious, but has the AFPRB 2017 report been released? I can't find any details on a google search and I've no access to DII for the next few days. Can somebody PM it to me perhaps?

It gets published online. No need for a defence portal.

Last year's (https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/238776/7315.pdf) was available online from the get go.

https://www.gov.uk/search?q=afprb&show_organisations_filter=true&filter_organisations%5B%5D=armed-forces-pay-review-body

[Beermonkey]

Oh dear, reckon someone is going to be very much in the p** for that little glimpse...!

Memories of Speckled Jim...?!

[Pontius Navigator]

BM, if it was anything like the Amarillo virus that crashed the MOD Servers, the email list will be so long as to make a leak check near impossible.

"And do you have a PPrune account on your computer?"

[Door Slider]

The report will be released on Friday according to the AFPRB.

[bunta130]

All of a week before the new Food and Accn charges take effect no doubt.....nice...

[Stuff]

In fact, have spines for all branches and reduce the pay bill by paying an adminer what they are actually worth.

Why not just civilianise the HR function, perhaps employ people who know about talent management?

Get rid of JPAC while we are at it. All they ever do is say you need to speak to Unit HR, meanwhile Unit HR tell you to speak to JPAC. Empower the new talent management people with the ability to actually fix problems rather than send them to someone else. Morale will soar.

[alfred_the_great]

. In fact, have spines for all branches and reduce the pay bill by paying an adminer what they are actually worth.

It's amazing to think some people believe FJ pilots are complete c*nts. I wonder why, eh?

[Professor Plum]

I take it you're an adminer then Alfie?

Great use of language

[bandit]

But let's stick with age old stereotypes eh? Frankly, I don't care what others think of me.

Sounds like it's not just Alfred sticking to the age old stereotypes.

[Melchett01]

Alfred,

Nice reasoned argument you presented there. It beggars belief that in this day and age officers are paid purely according to rank. I cannot think of any commercial organisation that would manage the pay bill in such a fashion.

But let's stick with age old stereotypes eh? Frankly, I don't care what others think of me.

Being controversial, I suspect that the official response would be along the lines of we recruit officers first and train them to be specialists second, and that as officers rather than specialists it warrants a common pay spine. Yes, some skills probably have a greater market value than others and I know the Institute of Employment Studies did a think piece recently for the AFPRB suggesting that such market value needs to be taken in to account more.

Indeed, if one were to look at it purely from an external market perspective, on the back of that study one might look at your average airline pilot at EJ, BA etc and ask whether that as a purely technical skill and with no requirement for your average airline pilot to have done a commissioning course before taking up their first right hand seat, whether pilots need to be officers at all? Could they be NCOs in pay band 4 with a minority being commissioned over time into leadership and management positions? I know a good few airline pilots who went straight down the civilian route and have no formal leadership or management training and yet are still good pilots despite not having been officers.

It's certainly not a simple issue, and although emotive, and I don't think it will become any less complex as we move gradually from the traditional views of 'air power' to 'aerospace' power, including the growing use of unmanned systems over the coming years and decades. Frankly, give it a few decades and you'll probably find its the spotty 19 year old who dreams in binary and can read code like we read the papers is going to be the next generation of high market value warrior rather than the sporty one with high functioning motor skills.

[Ascoteer]

Alfred,

Nice reasoned argument you presented there. It beggars belief that in this day and age officers are paid purely according to rank. I cannot think of any commercial organisation that would manage the pay bill in such a fashion.

But let's stick with age old stereotypes eh? Frankly, I don't care what others think of me.

Luckily there's no demand for FJ pilots in civvy street, but lots for A330/Widebody Boeing/Global Express/BAe146 rated pilots, plus from the retention paperwork it seems they are the ones leaving.

I second your proposals, but, using your 'modern thinking', it seems like it's the ME pilots who need the 'special' payband, with the multi's guys also, with the notable exception of the Tonka pilots, doing most of the op flying these days on top!

Besides, how expensive can property be in Lossiemouth?

[Ascoteer]

My point is that each job should have a payband. I don't care who earns more, just pay what you think they are worth paying. If ME pilots justify more as a result of outflow then why not pay more? Plenty of FJ guys transition to civ air too btw.

No issue with having NCO pilots either. Just pay them properly. Not sure NEM solved that one.

The main point is that the RRP proposals don't seem to address the problem. The AFPRB is not independent enough and NEM was a muddle that seemed to take forever to come up with but solved little, if anything. Truly a fine example of a committee decision. If you can payband the junior ranks, why not officers?

Anyway, looking forward to another real terms paycut tomorrow.

Sadly, in order to put up with the rest of the issues, such as lack of operational support, instability, working hours etc, the pay offer for any flying job would have to significantly outstrip civilian equivalents, which would be, at a guess, at least a 70% rise on top end Flt Lt with mid-high level RRP pay.

You're right, pilots should have moved to separate pay spine a long time ago...it's all a little too late now.

[Bob Viking]

Ascoteer.

You are making the same mistake that manning is making. You assume that because the airlines don't want FJ pilots there is no demand for them in civvy street. That is wrong. There are hundreds of jobs for FJ pilots in civvy street just not necessarily in the airlines. Aerospace companies and Middle Eastern AirForces currently pay far more than the airlines do and they are lapping up FJ pilots for flying and ground based roles.

Also you make the mistake of thinking basic salary is everything. Once you add in virtual pension contributions and money available for schooling the military pay package actually stacks up pretty nicely against the airlines at least. As a PAS Flt Lt with 3 kids my basic salary may be less than an airline pilot but I don't make pension contributions and I don't pay a penny for private schooling. That's before I even factor in what I can earn as a QFI on secondment.

So I agree that Multi Engine pilots are in high demand and can therefore justify being paid more but don't presume the same isn't true for FJ pilots. I dare say a Rotary expert could make the same case for his brethren too.

BV

[Whenurhappy]

Ascoteer.

As a PAS Flt Lt with 3 kids my basic salary may be less than an airline pilot but I don't make pension contributions and I don't pay a penny for private schooling.
BV

Really? So you get CEA as a PA and don't contribute either?

[jayc530]

The pilot situation will be resolved shortly anyway as there will be too few engineers to maintain the aircraft. I don't hear many engineers complain about their RRP!

[m0nkfish]

Luckily there's no demand for FJ pilots in civvy street, but lots for A330/Widebody Boeing/Global Express/BAe146 rated pilots, plus from the retention paperwork it seems they are the ones leaving.

I second your proposals, but, using your 'modern thinking', it seems like it's the ME pilots who need the 'special' payband, with the multi's guys also, with the notable exception of the Tonka pilots, doing most of the op flying these days on top!

Besides, how expensive can property be in Lossiemouth?

Actually there is a high demand for FJ guys in the civilian world right now. In fact, it's hard to imagine a time when a disgruntled and undervalued Tornado/Typhoon pilot could have been better placed to be leaving than right now. At the moment you will have your pick of a number of six figure jobs, most tax free and not all in the ME. Or stay in the UK and work for a number of companies that are keen to absorb the latest experience and talent to help sell their products.

I'm not saying there isn't an equal, or maybe even greater pull for ME pilots, it's not my area so I wouldn't know.

[Jumping_Jack]

As a PAS Flt Lt with 3 kids my basic salary may be less than an airline pilot but I don't make pension contributions and I don't pay a penny for private schooling


If you are actually claiming CEA then there is a requirement to contribute at least 10%.

[burners]

Looks like anyone who was hoping they would be trying to retain the most experienced aviators amongst us will be very disappointed. As someone who has been in 18 years the new RRP makes just about c**k all difference to me.

[burners]

[QUOTE=jayc530;9716510]Off you go then, I wish you all the luck in the world, I doubt you'll be going anywhere. Selfish beyond reasoning.[/QUOTE

How is commenting that something makes no difference to those we were told would be targeted to stay selfish?

I never mentioned plans to leave or not, just said it makes c**k all difference to those I was briefed it would be aimed at retaining.

Relax a little......

[Just This Once...]

I must be one of the few that have yet to see the new RRP structure. In my AoR the exodus is slowing, but only because the tanks are running dry.

The ritual burning of anything resembling a positive part of our employment, to leave just a transactional one, will count as one of the greatest errors when trying to glue together a professional volunteer force. Taking such measures with almost zero control of the balancing 'transactional' part of the package was just nuts.

I must admit to a certain morbid fascination as to how low they will go when it comes to retention, remuneration and manning levels.

[Bob Viking]

Jumping Jack.

Without wishing to sound churlish you are clearly not 100% au fait with all allowances.

BV

[Ascoteer]

Ascoteer.

You are making the same mistake that manning is making. You assume that because the airlines don't want FJ pilots there is no demand for them in civvy street. That is wrong. There are hundreds of jobs for FJ pilots in civvy street just not necessarily in the airlines. Aerospace companies and Middle Eastern AirForces currently pay far more than the airlines do and they are lapping up FJ pilots for flying and ground based roles.

Also you make the mistake of thinking basic salary is everything. Once you add in virtual pension contributions and money available for schooling the military pay package actually stacks up pretty nicely against the airlines at least. As a PAS Flt Lt with 3 kids my basic salary may be less than an airline pilot but I don't make pension contributions and I don't pay a penny for private schooling. That's before I even factor in what I can earn as a QFI on secondment.

So I agree that Multi Engine pilots are in high demand and can therefore justify being paid more but don't presume the same isn't true for FJ pilots. I dare say a Rotary expert could make the same case for his brethren too.

BV

Ah, chaps, I was only being facetious due to the quoted poster stating FJ should have its own payspine...I'm more than aware of the job opportunities for most of the flying streams (including RPA!), not to mention the outflow of experienced guys from all pilot areas (Chinook QHIs seem to be a particular issue).

As for the pensions/allowances, these are hugely dependent; if you're unmarried, childless and didn't accrue much under AFPS75 then it's an easier read-across, whereas if you're in the SFA, big pension, CEA trap it's a lot more difficult to take an interim airlines or FO job.

Frankly, my own decision to leave will be more lifestyle than pay based, but the pay rise on leaving is very, very significant.

[Aynayda Pizaqvick]

Looks like anyone who was hoping they would be trying to retain the most experienced aviators amongst us will be very disappointed. As someone who has been in 18 years the new RRP makes just about c**k all difference to me.

I'm in a similar position, if what is doing the rounds is accurate I reckon the difference post 1 Apr won't be enough to buy me the cheapest pint in the bar after work each day. But then we are being retained by proximity to pension more than whatever the RAF could afford to pay us as an FRI.

[burners]

[QUOTE=Aynayda Pizaqvick;9717057]I'm in a similar position, if what is doing the rounds is accurate I reckon the difference post 1 Apr won't be enough to buy me the cheapest pint in the bar after work each day. But then we are being retained by proximity to pension more than whatever the RAF could afford to pay us as an FRI.[/QUOTE

Yes, I think you are absolutely correct about the proximity to pension being the recognized method of keeping us for a while. I think it's a bit short sighted of the committee to not look beyond that though.

[cynicalint]

20 things I've learned since becoming an air traffic controller (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/lists/what-it-is-like-being-an-air-traffic-controller/)
"Zero stress and an £80,000 salary: 20 things I've learned since becoming an air traffic controller"

It's not just aircrew who could look at higher paid jobs...saw this in the torygraph today, I assume contents to be taken with a pinch of salt but indicates the salaries available to other branches and trades outside the RAF.

[Professor Plum]

Looks like we'll have to be patient and wait until next week then.......

[bunta130]

A disgrace......

[lpstanton]

Who wants to bet that it's been delayed due to 'recent events' and they don't want to look like massive hypocrites by simultaneously praising the various security forces and also giving them a pay rise that's below inflation (i.e. a real terms pay cut) and also way below what accommodation costs etc will rise by!

[Bannock]

The Armed Forces Covenant is a promise from the nation that those who serve or have served in the armed forces, and their families, are treated fairly.

https://www.gov.uk/government/collections/armed-forces-covenant-supporting-informa

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fc1iipvzr4s

[Wander00]

That'll be the "Armed Forces Con Trick" then

[Jumping_Jack]

Just had a response from the OME, expect announcement Tuesday or Wednesday next week.....so my first post was spot on.....

[Haraka]

Just had a response from the OME, expect announcement Tuesday or Wednesday next week.....so my first post was spot on.....
Doubtless that then will push all the posturing regarding Article 50 into the sidelines in the "medya".
:hmm:

[Onceapilot]

Hmmmm...Let's see....I do not think that HM Gov can foresee ANY likelyhood that HM Armed Forces will become involved in a manpower-critical conflict within say, the next ten years :rolleyes:. To that end, they are quite content to see manpower levels -25%. Overstretch is simply a cost saving. Sorry!:uhoh:

OAP

[Pontius Navigator]

OAP, oh come on 10 years? How about 10 weeks, :)

[MPN11]

20 things I've learned since becoming an air traffic controller (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/lists/what-it-is-like-being-an-air-traffic-controller/)
"Zero stress and an £80,000 salary: 20 things I've learned since becoming an air traffic controller"

It's not just aircrew who could look at higher paid jobs...saw this in the torygraph today, I assume contents to be taken with a pinch of salt but indicates the salaries available to other branches and trades outside the RAF.Indeed, numerous mates of my generation went on to 2nd careers on the civil side. Although most of them (sqn ldr/wg cdr) tended to into office jobs at NATS. Still nicely paid, of course, on top of their RAF Pensions. We even had an Air Cdre who bailed out about a year after promotion, and went to Eurocontrol!

I have no idea what the current 'move across' might be, though. And there's no direct licencing read-across for operational ATCOs, to a very fifferent environment. So they would not only have to paas the civil training, buy also unlearn a lot of their past experience. ISTR that NATS wasn't very keen on ex-Mil ATCOs in the past.

[Melchett01]

Overstretch is simply a cost saving. Sorry!:uhoh:

OAP

Unless you're an MP and it becomes part of the rationale for a 10% pay rise whilst the rest of the country is on austerity measures!

[Onceapilot]

OAP, oh come on 10 years? How about 10 weeks, :)

Hi Pontious, Yes I quite agree. It is, in my opinion, the carelessness, self interest and short-sighted unfounded optimism of our elected representatives that can lead Tommy into battle.:(

OAP

[Onceapilot]

Oh, come-on Meltchy...we are all in this together. Aren't we?:oh:

OAP

[Melchett01]

Oh, come-on Meltchy...we are all in this together. Aren't we?:oh:

OAP

Of course we're all in this together. Apparently my MP has cut back his smoked salmon and Bollinger afternoon tea to twice per week

[Red Line Entry]

Melchett, how can you be so cynical? Poor old George Osborne has had to take on numerous jobs just to make ends meet!

[downsizer]

Report out now for those bothered.

[Sandy Parts]

linky = https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/armed-forces-pay-review-body-forty-sixth-report-2017

[Onceapilot]

It says you will be doing more...for less! :(

OAP

[Bannock]

Are there pages missing? Cannot for the life of me see the section on retention initiatives.

Can we now put back the post relating to Flying RRP.

[BEagle]

MOD updated us with developments related to the impact of cuts imposed by the 2010 Strategic Defence and Security Review (SDSR) on RRP. The cuts mean that when an individual applies voluntarily to terminate their service, entitlement to all forms of RRP ceases from the date of their application being approved. In our view, this policy seems unjustified for certain groups such as submariners who will still be required to be at sea after having given notice. This issue continues to impact morale and retention negatively, particularly among those who have served a full career or are on career extensions, and are expected to serve this notice without receiving any RRP. We were disappointed to be told in evidence that there were no plans to further review the policy at this time; we believe this to be misconceived and wholly unjustified and it should be given further consideration.

A quick read of this document clearly reveals that MoD is up $hit creek without a paddle. All those things which many PPRuNers warned about over the years, such as the wanton destruction of the widely-regarded excellence of the flying training system, the failure to maintain the hard-won military accreditation system for civil pilot licences and the moral blackmail of ending Flying Pay to those who PVR, have come home to roost.

As the idiots sowed, now shall they reap....:mad:

[4everAD]

Truely shocking bit for me:

81% of SFA saw increases under the new CAAS banding system as apposed to the predicted 45%. And 'they' wonder why we have no trust in MOD or our leadership that blindly touted the party line. Reading the report I get the impression that lots of things are broken but there is neither the will or the money from MOD to fix them.

[Bannock]

"Many staff commented that the value of the overall offer had declined significantly in recent years and that the investment in new military equipment was not being matched by investment in Service personnel to operate or maintain it. "

In a nut shell.

[bunta130]

I'm afraid we will have lots of headline shiny new kit that will sit on the ground. It would appear that 'people' are not listening!

[Just This Once...]

It's a pretty rubbish deal for the next cadre of junior pilots. With 4 years to OCU completion and a further 6 years before proper rates of flying pay the additional 'recruitment and retention' rates for pilots in the first 10 years is bleak.

Asking for a 6 year RoS at around the 11 year point (for £70k) is just nuts. They have turned the virtual exit point at 11 to 12 years into a contractual one. By this point the average pilot will be wondering why he has been working so hard as a JO, whilst his colleagues in ground branches are marching up the career, pay and pension ladder. This is not the point where you hold a RoS gun to a pilot's head - you have just kicked them around for 11 years with little financial gain so the airlines or private sector will look very seductive.

Madness.

[Lima Juliet]

JTO

Yes, I don't think this is quite right yet. The £70k at an EDP on AFPS15 would make more sense. Otherwise, it was ever thus that we effectively pay our people to leave. I got a £50k FRI a few years ago and it retained me having started sniffing around the ATPL route. Not a huge amount of money when it had a 5yr ROS, but enough to drag me through to the 22/44 point on the old pension scheme.

However, as I understand it things are different than when I joined. The majority of aircrew now take a Short Service Commission of 12 years, so the 11 year point for £70k may not be so mad. However I would have thought the offer of a Permanent Commission to 18/40 would be enough and then offer the £70k to drag them past that Early Departue Point (EDP) might be better.

It will be inteesting to see whether they have got it right or not.

LJ

[Aynayda Pizaqvick]

Well, actually I beg to disagree, I think overall it is a pretty good deal for the next cadre of pilots and if given my time again would rather be on this new system than the one currently in force. If your plan was to depart as soon as your RoS was up, then you will be around £40k worse off. However with the big jump in flying pay increments, if you plan to stick around until 12 years post OCU (i.e. until just before you would have got Enhanced Rate RRP) then you are about £23k better off just on flying pay alone. You'll also have done your RoS for your FRI, so chuck another £70k on top of that too. You're now probably only about 6 years from the carrot of your IPP. Overall I will be surprised if that doesn't have a positive effect on retention.

Personally, as someone on enhanced rate already I don't get cock-all extra on 1 Apr, but I'm sticking around for the pension and they obviously know it. From a selfish point of view, that sucks, but from a retention point of view, I think they've done an ok job given the constraints.

[VinRouge]

Well, actually I beg to disagree, I think overall it is a pretty good deal for the next cadre of pilots and if given my time again would rather be on this new system than the one currently in force. If your plan was to depart as soon as your RoS was up, then you will be around £40k worse off. However with the big jump in flying pay increments, if you plan to stick around until 12 years post OCU (i.e. until just before you would have got Enhanced Rate RRP) then you are about £23k better off just on flying pay alone. You'll also have done your RoS for your FRI, so chuck another £70k on top of that too. You're now probably only about 6 years from the carrot of your IPP. Overall I will be surprised if that doesn't have a positive effect on retention.

Personally, as someone on enhanced rate already I don't get cock-all extra on 1 Apr, but I'm sticking around for the pension and they obviously know it. From a selfish point of view, that sucks, but from a retention point of view, I think they've done an ok job given the constraints.

Check annexe 2. I reckon you are in for around a 1000 quid increase in pay, as you will be transitioning to the next available pay point up from what was enhanced rate (which doesn't exist as of 1 April).

[Melchett01]

JTO,

I've said it before and I don't think it's changed. I think there is an unofficial and unwritten policy of encouraging people of all Branches / Trades to leave early. Having worked out that pensions are expensive and before people start to climb too high up the pay spine, get them to leave if their own accord.

Yes, it dilutes experience and increases your training burden, but it decreases other costs significantly, especially preserved vs immediate pensions. Plus, if people are leaving early, you can effectively introduce graduated training so the high end high cost training is reserved for those few they want to keep whilst the rest are trained to an adequate level to make up the numbers. We all know it's a short sighted route to go down, but it's accountants with an eye on the bottom line not operators that call the shots these days; they are the ones that hold both power and influence.

[Aynayda Pizaqvick]

Check annexe 2. I reckon you are in for around a 1000 quid increase in pay, as you will be transitioning to the next available pay point up from what was enhanced rate (which doesn't exist as of 1 April).

If my maths/logic is correct it is about half that: Enhanced this year = £46.04 a day which would be £46.50 with the 1% that is being applied to all other RRP from 1 Apr. Next week I will be on £47.95 a day so after tax I'll get an extra 87 pence a day. Save a few days up and I'll be able to buy a pint in the bar. Or a whole week and I might get a pint on the high street!

Don't get me wrong, I'm not complaining too much as I think the package is still pretty good and I'm staying until pension either way, but it does serve to demonstrate the fact that the retention efforts are for the lump of people post RoS who still need a bit of encouragement to stick it out until their IPP; this won't retain everyone as some will want to leave no matter what, but I do think the changes at least actually make RRP something resembling retention pay (so maybe we just call it Retention Pay (RP) from now on?).

[Just This Once...]

I still think we need this as a long-term solution:

Bespoke pay spines provide a long-term solution for groups with different career progression to the mainstream (such as Pilots or Chaplains) or who have pay aligned with direct comparator groups (such as Nurses).

If only the AFPRB would read their own footnotes.

[thelizardking]

People who are over 7 years from finish OCU, on top rate flying pay, and are about 4 years from leaving get next to nothing and are being offered next to nothing as far as i can see, when you look at what they earn, the pay rise will take them through 60k, potentially amounting to about £75-85 a month. There doesn't seem to be an offer for these guys to say...extend 6 years beyond their leaving point. Also there are plenty of people on the new pension, who are past 7 years but still have about 9 or 10 to go to get to the pension point, it seems to have missed them too. It seems geared more towards retaining people we haven't quite got yet, and not really for the vast majority who are in the SQEP bracket.

[traginoben]

First post so be gentle!!

I find this a particularly frustrating situation to find myself in. I qualify for the £70k by being at IPP in the stated timeframe. Im staying for the pension like many others, however I have declared an interest in potentially greener pastures but remaining in defence. On reading the eligibility criteria in the DIN it is going well for me, right up to the point of application where it states that you cannot 'transfer' if you accept the payment.
As this is a Tri-service retention payment recommended by the AFPRB how is it that an individual cannot remain in the military and broaden his/her experience by way of transfer and still benefit from the retention payment?

All sensible offerings received!!

[GipsyMagpie]

Since when has time served been a good measure of how good/useful a pilot is? Start linking pay to qualifications and skills and we might be keeping the people we need. But of course cheaper to have a junior LCR guy in a seat than a crusty QWI.

[Bob Viking]

Gypsy Magpie.

But of course cheaper to have a junior LCR guy in a seat than a crusty QWI.

This scenario has one obvious benefit. The chat would be far less boring.

BV

[Onceapilot]

Guess you're not a QWI Bob?

OAP

[Bob Viking]

Only a Hawk QWI. Our chat was so much cooler. Same, drift, drift, track, fire...

BV

[Aynayda Pizaqvick]

First post so be gentle!!

I find this a particularly frustrating situation to find myself in. I qualify for the £70k by being at IPP in the stated timeframe. Im staying for the pension like many others, however I have declared an interest in potentially greener pastures but remaining in defence. On reading the eligibility criteria in the DIN it is going well for me, right up to the point of application where it states that you cannot 'transfer' if you accept the payment.
As this is a Tri-service retention payment recommended by the AFPRB how is it that an individual cannot remain in the military and broaden his/her experience by way of transfer and still benefit from the retention payment?

All sensible offerings received!!

I'm guessing it is because no other service or branch is offering a £70k FRI at IPP. That is a specifically targeted measure to retain a specific section of defence; if you are transferring somewhere else, then they aren't retaining your expertise within that area that needs it, so you don't get the money. Frustrating, but I get where they are coming from.

[Aynayda Pizaqvick]

Compared to when I joined, the MOD is now paying pilots their own 'flying pay' (called by another name) seven years late......, and then bonding them in for 6 years more and treating it as a 'bonus'.

This is a race to the bottom, and nothing good will come of it.

Only partially true; if you stay until you are entitle to your FRI then you will still be over £25k better off under the new system than than what you would have been on the 72 week Fg Trg scheme that I came through on (even for the likes of a FJ guy who spends longer to get post OCU). The new higher rates means the longer you stay, the bigger the difference.

I'll say it again, if you leave early you will be worse off, but then it would be a pretty rubbish retention measure if it paid you more to leave early. Stick around for your FRI and you are quids in!

[Just This Once...]

I see no mention of a transition period - so are a bunch of pilots going to see a pay cut next month?

Back in the day my flying pay was included in my mortgage calculation...

[Onceapilot]

BV, :ok:

OAP

[Stuff]

Only a Hawk QWI. Our chat was so much cooler. Same, drift, drift, track, fire...

BV

I thought it went, "piece of p***, too good to miss, dah dum dah dum dah dum, BRRRRRRRTTTT!"

Perhaps that's where I was going wrong :}

[Aynayda Pizaqvick]

I see no mention of a transition period - so are a bunch of pilots going to see a pay cut next month?

Back in the day my flying pay was included in my mortgage calculation...

No, there are transitional arrangements that mean no one will be worse off and the majority will actually get a payrise on 1 Apr. For example, those on top rate will move directly to today's equivalent of enhanced rate. I'm on enhanced and get about an extra £500 but with have the potential to progress to £19,200.

If you are on DII then check out the DIN.

[Just This Once...]

No DII for me as away from the mainstream; no RRP either as a PAS OF3. I had hoped that the PAS structure would be extended downwards to catch pilots earlier in their career, ideally post first operational tour. The new career average pension scheme does nothing for those spending an extended period as a JO whilst dining on RRP and FRIs.

[Lima Juliet]

Thread drift!!

Not sure I would entitle a Hawk's Aden as a "BBRRRRRT" - more like a "Clacker-Clacker-Clacker-Clacker" :ok:

[Lima Juliet]

Ok, being a sad git with a spare 20 minutes I have just done a quick spreadsheet analysis between old and new to try and put this to bed. Assumptions are that the individual joins at 21 on a SSC, goes FJ and takes just over 4 years to get there (there are 185 weeks of IOT, EFT, FJLIN, BFJT, AJT and OCU alone let alone leave and other courses). For both RRP methods the rank structure stays the same - normally Fg Off for 2.5yrs and thence on Flt Lt.

On either system both start on £30,923 per annum as Fg Off going up to Flt Lt at £39,629 after 3 yrs from IOT. Not bad for the average graduate.

On the old RRP scheme they would start RRP on completion of the OCU on lower rate of £5,339 per annum. This then rises every 4 years to £9,066, £14,417 and £16,972. If the individual leaves at their SSC 12 yr option they would have got a total of £57,620 of RRP during their time. If they stay to AFPS15 40/18 EDP they would get a total of £166,204 during their time. Obviously either example can then leave with an Early Departure Payment (EDP) or if not a Sqn Ldr apply for assimilation to PAS.

Under the new scheme the pilot would not get RRP until ~2 years later than under the old RRP scheme. They would then get £4,000 per annum, about £1,300 less than the old scheme, until approximately their 11th year of service. However, at that point, they would then get a rise to £13,249 per annum of RRP; which is ~£4,000 more than the old RRP scheme. If they choose to elave at the 12 yr SSC point they would have got £33,249 of RRP during their time. HOWEVER, also at this point between year 11 and 12 they would get the £70k which 'bonds' them in for a further 6 years which takes them to their 40/18 EDP point. If they choose to retire at this point they will have had £156,397 of RRP plus a £70,000 FRI - that is ~£60,000 more than the previous RRP scheme.

Originally, I opined that this scheme would better target the EDP point, but now I can see the logic behind these new measures. It says in the AFPRB that the OF-3/4/5 cadre is in manning balance; which it is more or less. However, in the next 5-10 years there are an awful lot of Nav/WSOs coming up for retirement so I think a FRI at the EDP will also be needed if we want this to remain in balance.

Oh, and for those that transition to the new RRP scheme they will also be "Quids In" as previously stated. I make it about £2k on average when you translate from the old rates to the new Tier 2 rates.

So overall, this is SOMETHING TO BE HAPPY ABOUT FOR ONCE!!! :):):)

Headline figures:
Newbie £60k better off until 40/18
Transitional Arrangement person ~£2k per year better off

LJ

[CommsBiff]

Oh, and for those that transition to the new RRP scheme they will also be "Quids In" as previously stated. I make it about £2k on average when you translate from the old rates to the new Tier 2 rates.

For those on enhanced rate it's only a £527 increase on transition, not £2k unfortunately. From Enhanced Rate (£16,973) to Tier 2, Rate 4 (£17,500).

As I am OCU+13y, I rather foolishly assumed I'd go onto the appropriate level of Rate 7 (£19,200), which is applicable from OCU+12y. Slightly miffed I'll join at Rate 4, which is applicable from OCU+9y.

Oh well :rolleyes: , now to take PAS or not?

[Lima Juliet]

CommsBiff

Thanks, I haven't seen the full DIN on the transitional arrnagments. The Rate 4 is £17,501 and so yes it would be only £528 increase. But after 3 years it would be a rise of £2,227 over and above what you would get if you stayed on the old RRP scheme. Not huge sums when HMRC take their little bit, but better than a kick in the teeth 1%!

Best

LJ

[Onceapilot]

Thanks for the details Leon. I had an FRI and was sad to see the taxman take pretty much 50% in tax and NI. Looks to me like a just below age 30 Flt Lt Pilot will be getting roughly 50k in gross pay. How does the "not independent pay review board" (bored?) square that with the £100k+ benefits of a less than age 30 Airline Captain?:ouch:
If the fairness of Service life and payscales stand on their own merit, why do the Gov/MOD continue the farce of lying about how they decide to pay Service personnel? :bored:

OAP

[SAR Bloke]

Leon,

Your calculations don't appear to take tax into account and a lump sum is hugely tax inefficient. A 40% rate tax payer will only get 42k in their bank (7k a year for 6 years RoS).

Also, the pay appears to come into effect 6 years after the start of phase 2 flying training; IOT plus a 6 month hold and you can delay all those figures by a year.

Has anyone seen anything in the AFPRB report about PAS retention? I have only skimmed it but it appears that they aren't concerned about retaining people after they've transferred to PAS (and are no longer in receipt of RRP)?

[Lima Juliet]

OAP

I also had a FRI of £50k - worked out as £29,500 as 40% tax and £500 National Insurance. Mrs LJ spent it on a new 4x4 and woosh it was gone!!!

Not so sure that there are many airline captains aged 30 earning £100k per year though? Normally it takes 10 years plus as an experienced pilot to get a left hand seat with the 'big boys' that pay this sort of money in my humble opinion. Plus they normally pay towards their pension at about £15k per year to get a similar amount as the AFPS.

A Flt Lt pilot that has been in about 12 years is going to be paid about £65k (inc flying pay) plus not be paying into a pension which would cost a further £15k. So that is £80k real terms then get a loyalty payment of £70k to stay for a further 6 years before they qualify for a pension for life and a tax free lump sum isn't too uncompetitive. Also, if you are doing it to become rich then they are in the wrong job, I would suggest!

Best

LJ

[mftx7jrn]

One of the most telling one liners in the brief was that Her Majesty could not compete with the civil sector when it comes to raw, financial re-numeration. In order to fund this 'uplift' in RRP(F) as it currently stands, the money has had to come from within the Defence budget. Any further uplift in RRP(F) would have meant that that another group/band/cohort in Defence would have dipped out.

Personally, I believe that this will see more aircrew retained which, I suppose (rightly or wrongly), is the overall purpose of this review.

[Lima Juliet]

SAR Bloke

It is normal to discuss salaries before tax as you may have other incomes or savings that affect your take home...:ok:

You haven't imcluded NI in your tax figure for the £70k FRI, so it will probably come to around £38-40k after 40% tax and Ni. I can't be fagged to work it out. However it will equate to £600+/month in your pocket if you want to look at it that way over the 6 years. Not to be sniffed at I would suggest?

Best

LJ

[mftx7jrn]

LJ,

It was briefed as £42,000 post tax. Don't know how they worked it out i'm afraid.

[Lima Juliet]

MFTX7JRN

Incorrectly, I would suggest? The income tax would be 40% (tax code D0) and the National Insurance would be on top. So 40% would be £28,000, which gives you £42,000 but the bozos have missed off the NI that could be up to £4k or as little as £1k depending on your circumstances...:ok:

There are simple tax calculators online like UK Tax Calculator 2017 - Updated for the 2016/2017 and 2017/2018 Tax Year (http://www.uktaxcalculators.co.uk) that help you plan. The NI bill on here for 2016/17 is a whopping £4700 or 6.8%!!

Best

LJ

[Ascoteer]

For those with DIN access...is there a transitional arrangement for the FRI? Or is it a case that if you're OCU + 7 years and one day on 1st April you are no longer eligible?

[ditchvisitor]

is it a case that if you're OCU + 7 years and one day on 1st April you are no longer eligible?

That is indeed correct and was confirmed today by manning, I know of a number of people who miss out by 6 days.

[Ascoteer]

That is indeed correct and was confirmed today by manning, I know of a number of people who miss out by 6 days.

What an incredible way to disenfranchise all your senior captains! Plenty of guys still 10 years from pension but past the 7 year mark.

I believe this is what you would call a 'spectacular own goal'...

[Sketretal]

Unfortunately, as with all previous FRIs, there has to be a cut off date. It's just plain bad luck for those on the wrong side of the OCU+7 / 1st April.

I agree with Leon and others that this is a pretty good deal overall which should hopefully drag more people through from end of Initial Training ROS to their EDP.

Word of warning on the £70k Retention Payment and tax implications... This payment, when added to usual salary, will see individuals break the £100k barrier in a single tax year which will lead to loss of some or all of your tax free allowance. Hence a further tax bill could be due in the year following receipt of payment. Those who took earlier FRIs will probably already know this. Some sound financial advice (Al R?) can reap rewards as there are ways to reduce your effective income below the £100k barrier and save on tax (small contribution to a personal pension for example...).

[Ascoteer]

Unfortunately, as with all previous FRIs, there has to be a cut off date. It's just plain bad luck for those on the wrong side of the OCU+7 / 1st April.

I agree with Leon and others that this is a pretty good deal overall which should hopefully drag more people through from end of Initial Training ROS to their EDP.


I agree, this deal will be good when it starts to kick-in in around 2 to 3 years time...in the meantime they've actively screwed over a bunch of guys who have lived through AFPS75 to AFPS15, the first flying pay cut, years deployed, forced redundancies and years of real time pay and allowance cuts. These are all experienced chaps (and chapesses) still far enough from newly stretched out pension points that leaving makes financial sense; it seems, from speaking to a few early to mid thirties pilots across the steams, that this decision will tip the balance in favour of them leaving. It's not a purely monetary decision either, it's a work to money ratio and when the former is going up and the latter going down, or going up for everyone else, no wonder people feel aggrieved.

I, frankly, think this is an absolute kick in the teeth. I would say I hope it comes back to bite them, but we all know that it will just result in our Sqn mates having more leave cancelled, working harder and having less notice to move.

[Bob Viking]

For what it's worth I think it actually makes a pleasant change to see a few guys with a smile on their faces for once. There are always winners and losers and, as a PAS guy it makes no odds to me, but it could have been a lot worse. Some of the guys I work with have actually had good news and that is rare.

Once again I apologise for being positive. I feel someone has to provide balance.

BV

[Lima Juliet]

Ascoteer

What an incredible way to disenfranchise all your senior captains! Plenty of guys still 10 years from pension but past the 7 year mark.

How do you work that out my friend? Let's say there is a very lucky individual who has done IOT, EFT, MELIN, ME and then an OCU in just 3 years (the last youngster that held with me took nearly 6 to do the same!!). So, they leave the OCU at year 3, they get CR in year 4 and are a Co-Pilot for 4 years until year 8 and then get a Captain's course that takes them to year 9. They then take 4 years to become "senior captains" (which is debatable in that timescale) that takes them to year 13 - that is 10 years after OCU. They joined at 21 and so they need to make age 40 years for AFPS15 and at year 13 they will be 34, so they only have 6 years to go to the EDP.

That's only if they finished an OCU after 3 years that they will have 6 years as a "senior captain", however, with all the holds that young pilots have endured since 2010, then the time to EDP as a "senior captain" is likely to be less than 3 years in all reality. Plus, at that point if they choose to leave they could have £43k tax free and an immediate EDP income of £7k, plus at Service Pension Age (currently age 68) this will increase to £19k index linked. If they choose to stay and are promoted or go PAS then that pension will grow and grow.

It's not that bad a deal if they don't listen to the 'old sweats' like us that had it good. Oh, and by the way it's not the "first flying pay cut" when I joined up in late 89 I missed Flying Trg Pay by just 2 months before it was scrapped (in those days it was £1/day if I recall correctly). Also, I missed out by 3 days of the highest tier on what was known as FRI1 in the late 90s. It's been happening for years and is hardly a new phenomenon. Oh, and while I'm at it my start IOT to end FJ OCU took 4 years and my flying pay started after 2 years of starting flying trg - the guys ahead of me by 2 months got the extra £1/day from the day they started flying trg. As for "years deployed" then in my 28 years I have done more than my fair share of Iraq (x2), Bosnia (x2), Falklands (x10), Afghanistan (x3) and countless time away on overseas/deployed trg, staff visits or stuck in the QRA shed - indeed the first year I was married in the mid 90s I was away for a cumulative 9 months, the following year 8 months and then I wasn't married anymore! So again, this is not a new phenomenon that the younger cadre of aircrew have had to endure. These sorts of FRIs and schemes have been around for many, many, years to help remunerate disrupted lifestyles and to combat the lure away of SQEPs from the Service. Dems the breaks...as they say :cool:

Personally, I think they have got it about right, but then I will see none of it like others on here.

Best

LJ

[VinRouge]

Many are on options to extend past their 38 point now, (AFPS 15 requirement to offer this) meaning many have over 7 years to their exit date.

Disappointing that the most experienced are not being offered retention money, although you could argue a PA offer is a better and more lucrative deal in the longer term for recruitment, this is as long as further changes are not made to the pension and/or accrual rules.

Personally managed 3 1/2 ME FL tours by year 12, with over 6 years as skipper.

Now on AFPS 15, OTE and considering all options.

One thing to note though, we all pretty much as aircrew got the biggest pay rise in the public sector, including I believe MPs, so peeps cannot deny retention is seriously being looked at.

[Ascoteer]

LJ,

Remember it's age 40 AND 20 years Service to qualify for EDPs. Most people are having to extend past age 40.

If you join at 18 and complete training in 3 years (probably 4 for FJ mates) then you could easily be a CR rotary captain, ME Captain, or on your first FJ tour at 24...with a pension age of 40.

If you joined at 23 as a graduate, then you would likely be in the same position at age 29, but your AFPS15 pension age would be 43 (albeit with an 'option at 39).

I don't think my figures were too far off!

Although most generations suffered cuts, none more so than those who signed up on AFPS75 and were forced onto AFPS15.

@vin I don't think a lot of the younger AFPS75 guys will make it to a position to be offered PAS, as it will be 3 years before their AFPS15 exit point!

[VinRouge]

LJ,

Remember it's age 40 AND 20 years Service to qualify for EDPs. Most people are having to extend past age 40.

If you join at 18 and complete training in 3 years (probably 4 for FJ mates) then you could easily be a CR rotary captain, ME Captain, or on your first FJ tour at 24...with a pension age of 40.

If you joined at 23 as a graduate, then you would likely be in the same position at age 29, but your AFPS15 pension age would be 43 (albeit with an 'option at 39).

I don't think my figures were too far off!

Although most generations suffered cuts, none more so than those who signed up on AFPS75 and were forced onto AFPS15.

@vin I don't think a lot of the younger AFPS75 guys will make it to a position to be offered PAS, as it will be 3 years before their AFPS15 exit point!

PA offer /eligibility is 2 years from IPP, which will be your original 75 exit date (16/38). Source -AP 3392 (or AP3393)

[Lima Juliet]

Ok matey, although I still find it hard to believe that they are given Captain's courses on a ME aircraft after just 2 years CR in the right hand seat - are things really that bad on multis? Only 7 years ago it was taking on average 5 years to get in the left hand seat and some considered that too early!

Also, don't forget that FJ mates are Captains from starting the OCU! :ok:

[Ascoteer]

Ok matey, although I still find it hard to believe that they are given Captain's courses on a ME aircraft after just 2 years CR in the left hand seat - are things really that bad on multis? Only 7 years ago it was taking on average 5 years to get in the right hand seat and some considered that too early!

Also, don't forget that FJ mates are Captains from starting the OCU! :ok:

ME is around 3 years from end of OCU, some less (Shadow), personnel dependent.

@vin if you took the OTE manning told us your IPP becomes your AFRS15 exit date, I believe (the reason some people didn't sign it). It was certainly a grey area when discussed with them.

[VinRouge]

ME is around 3 years from end of OCU, some less (Shadow), personnel dependent.

@vin if you took the OTE manning told us your IPP becomes your AFRS15 exit date, I believe (the reason some people didn't sign it). It was certainly a grey area when discussed with them.
IPP is defined on JPA, mine is still set to 16/38 and all advice from manning has been that your original IPP would be honoured for PA. Other option would be to simply declare your option and thus move your IPP back!

[Ascoteer]

IPP is defined on JPA, mine is still set to 16/38 and all advice from manning has been that your original IPP would be honoured for PA. Other option would be to simply declare your option and thus move your IPP back!

Interesting, my compadres and I were under the impression this wasn't always going to be the case...will chase up on this, thanks for the heads up.

[Mind your ears]

Can anyone help a brother out with either a copy of the DIN laying out eligibility for the retention bonus at the 7 year point or a quick jist of who qualifies and who doesn't please? TIA!

[ZD241_VC10]

Interesting, my compadres and I were under the impression this wasn't always going to be the case...will chase up on this, thanks for the heads up.

Talk to the deskies. Mine informed me last year that any PAS offer would be made based upon my AFPS75 IPP even though I'd taken the OTE.

[Common_Sense]

I've not seen anything about this year. Anyone?

[Common_Sense]

I've not seen anything about this year. Anyone?

[flyingkeyboard]

A few announcements on the DI. The message is wait out, likely to be known by September and backdated to Apr.

[alfred_the_great]

It's due in November(ish), backdated to April.

[downsizer]

It's due in November(ish), backdated to April.

ATG, have you got a source for Nov(ish), I’ve heard summer?

[Ken Scott]

Kicked into the long grass I believe until the autumn in the hope that by then everyone will have forgotten about the imminent NHS pay deal so that they'll be more 'content' with their 1%.

[Just This Once...]

Not sure the NHS deal is that special. After a decade of zero or below-inflation pay rises the government has managed to lock-in 3 more years of below-inflation increases. Given the propensity for NHS workers to strike whilst garnering public support this agreement is only a win for HM Treasury.

It does not bode well for the AFPRB and the backdating of pay, charges and pension codes does little to balance the pull vs push factors. Makes a mockery of the first paragraph of the Armed Forces Covernant. I guess ‘binding in every sense’ has a more relaxed meaning these days.

[Ken Scott]

6.5% over 3 years with some workers getting 'as much as 29%' (to quote the BBC website). It may be 'below inflation' but it beats the 1% that the armed forces are likely to get.

[Just This Once...]

Indeed. With the continual reduction in allowances, pay erosion, increase in charges and more parsimonious terms of service you would think we would be leaving...

[unclenelli]

6.5% over 3 years is <2.2% per annum.
Sure a £2000 bonus increase for some low paid NHS, but that's still <Inflation

AND REMEMBER THERE'S AN INCREASE IN NI CONTRIBUTIONS THIS APRIL TOO!!!!!!!! AND AGAIN FOR THE NEXT FEW YEARS!!!!!!

Give with one hand, take away with the other!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


Remind me, What was the past MP's pay increase..........???????

[downsizer]

2.9%.......

Don't know when it will be paid, not in work.

https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/728367/CCS207_CCS0318277118-1_AFPRB_2018_Book_Accessible.pdf

[Ventre A Terre]

Not quite 2.9% just 2% + a 0.9% non-consolidated payment. Whatever that is!

From Written Statement by SofS Defence

“I am today announcing the Government’s decision on pay rises for the Armed Forces.
The Armed Forces’ Pay Review Body (AFPRB) has made its recommendation for the 2018-19 pay award of 2.9%. We are accepting the spirit of this recommendation with a 2% increase to pay (implemented in September salaries, backdated to 1 April 2018) and, in addition, a 0.9% non-consolidated one-off payment (implemented later in the year, also back dated to 1 April 2018).
Today’s pay award will deliver an annual increase to starting salaries of £520 for an officer and £370 for a newly trained solider, sailor or airman or woman. This is in addition to the non-contributory pension and access to incremental pay progression.
The AFPRB has also made recommendations on rises and changes to other targeted forms of remuneration, and on increases to food and accommodation charges, which have been accepted. Where applicable, these rate changes will also be backdated to 1 April 2018.
The Government is committed to world class public services and ensuring that public sector workers are fairly paid for the vitally important work that they do. It is thanks to our balanced approach to public finances - getting debt falling as a share of our economy, while investing in our vital services and keeping taxes low - that we are today able to announce a fair and deserved pay rise for the Armed Forces, their biggest increase since 2010.
We ended the 1% average pay policy in September 2017, because we recognised more flexibility is now required to deliver world class public services including in return for improvements to public sector productivity.
We value the role of the independent Pay Review Bodies and thank them for their work in considering pay awards. In reaching a final position for 2018-19 public sector pay awards, we have balanced a need to recognise the value and dedication of our hard-working public servants whilst ensuring that our public services remain affordable in the long term, to contribute to our objective of reducing public sector debt. We have also sought to ensure that pay awards are fair and consistent across public sector workforces, reflect existing pay and benefit packages, in addition to recruitment and retention levels.
It is vital that we consider all pay awards in light of wider pressures on public spending. Public sector pay needs to be fair both for public sector workers and the taxpayer. Around a quarter of all public spending is spent on pay and we need to ensure that our public services remain affordable for the future.”



It is also vital that our world class public services continue modernising to meet rising demand for the incredible services they provide, which improve our lives and keep us safe.

[downsizer]

So I guess that means the 2018 pay scales in the report will be wrong as they are worked out at 2.9%, not 2%?

[Ventre A Terre]

So I guess that means the 2018 pay scales in the report will be wrong as they are worked out at 2.9%, not 2%?

The Report is only the AFPRB recommendation to the Govt, so I guess so. Note he only indicated that the 0.9% would come in the future but not when!

[Ken Scott]

The ‘non-contributory’ pension that salary is abated for in lieu of payments? The abatement is currently 5% I believe and pensions are then based on your net rather than gross salary.

[Just This Once...]

All seems rather odd with the 2.9 vs 2+0.9% in Sept or later. The AFPRB report as dated July 2018 makes no such distinction so a bit of a mess.

[Just This Once...]

The ‘non-contributory’ pension that salary is abated for in lieu of payments? The abatement is currently 5% I believe and pensions are then based on your net rather than gross salary.



Probably better to say that the pension is based on abated pay rate (-4%), rather than net/gross and of course it can vary depending on your pension scheme. Either way, your point is spot-on as the statement is disingenuous as it suggests that we make no contributions.

[charliegolf]

+ a 0.9% non-consolidated payment. Whatever that is!

I suspect that it will not be regarded as pensionable? Just a (taxable) payment. Bout time though boys and girls, I for one wish it were more.

CG

[Melchett01]

Not quite 2.9% just 2% + a 0.9% non-consolidated payment. Whatever that is!

I might be wrong, but I have a vague recollection from somewhere that the non-consolidated bit means it's not pensionable. Overall better than I had anticipated, but I don't know what that will mean for the next AFPRB given that there's no extra cash above the 1% for this round. In the worst case it could well mean future rises are far lower as budgets try to catch up with the funding required to pay the salaries. Let's see - it's not that long until the speculation starts for the next one given the delays in this one!

[Just This Once...]

This tactic was used with the police last year. The government took some flack for this slight of hand and yes, it did mean that part of the pay increase was non-pensionable. This has a deleterious effect on the newer public sector career average pensions scheme and it also impacts death-in-service payments, ill-health and widows pensions. The pay award for the following year excludes this %, so if the armed forces received a 1% pay rise next year the actual increase in gross pay would be just 0.1%.

It is another thin-edge-of-the-wedge moment following AFPS15 as the armed forces now have a mixed pensionable/non-pensionable basic salary. I wonder what the AFPRB will do now. Their report weighed-up the argument for an inflation+ pay rise but on grounds of government affordability they settled on 2.9%. Now that we are not quite getting that will they look for a compensatory pay rise next year to fill the gap, or just give-up and rubber stamp their master's bidding, or honourably resign from the AFPRB?

For me this battle is over as I drew stumps in April, so this pay award finally tells me what my pension should have been on leaving.

[m0nkfish]

This tactic was used with the police last year. The government took some flack for this slight of hand and yes, it did mean that part of the pay increase was non-pensionable. This has a deleterious effect on the newer public sector career average pensions scheme and it also impacts death-in-service payments, ill-health and widows pensions. The pay award for the following year excludes this %, so if the armed forces received a 1% pay rise next year the actual increase in gross pay would be just 0.1%.

It is another thin-edge-of-the-wedge moment following AFPS15 as the armed forces now have a mixed pensionable/non-pensionable basic salary. I wonder what the AFPRB will do now. Their report weighed-up the argument for an inflation+ pay rise but on grounds of government affordability they settled on 2.9%. Now that we are not quite getting that will they look for a compensatory pay rise next year to fill the gap, or just give-up and rubber stamp their master's bidding, or honourably resign from the AFPRB?

For me this battle is over as I drew stumps in April, so this pay award finally tells me what my pension should have been on leaving.


My understanding is a non-consolidated payment is effectively a one off bonus payment. So you will get a 2% pay rise, and a 0.9% bonus for the year. If this is the case, and you think you are getting a 2.9% pay rise, then be prepared for a 0.9% reduction in pay next year...

2% is still below inflation (and 2.9% is below the 3% inflation we had for the later half of 2017 and early 2018), so I think this is a poor deal that you had to wait too long for. If it really turns out to be 2% and not 2.9% then (IMHO) you are being screwed. Oh and the wonderful icing on the cake, all the charges have been increased and will be back dated....

[Onceapilot]

I would expect that the "non-consolidated" 0.9% implies that it is not consolidated within pay scales and, as others have speculated, it will not appear in pay scales after the period that this pay award covers. ie, The next pay award will be reduced by the 0.9%. However, I do question the "not pensionable" aspect. I expect that anyone retiring in the near future who's pension is calculated on pay earned within the period covered by this payment would qualify? :)

OAP

[Just This Once...]

AFPRB 1018 Report:

We note also that the most recent CPI inflation figure is at 3 per cent, with the Retail Prices Inflation (RPI) figure at 4 per cent; while no longer an official measure, RPI remains a figure that service personnel recognise, and regularly mention to us.

We considered whether a pay award that was consciously above inflation was necessary to achieve the results we are seeking. However, against that, we need to take into account the evidence on affordability, and the continuing pressures on public finances. On balance, we recommend an across-the-board increase of 2.9 per cent in base pay for 2018-19. While it is below CPI inflation, it represents a significant change from the 1 per cent that we have recommended for the last five years. We believe that Service personnel will recognise that affordability constraints remain.

We are proposing that this increase should be across-the-board, as was supported by MOD during oral evidence, since we wish to send a general message this year.

Looks like the message failed at the Treasury as they will only fund a 1% pay rise this year. The remaining money will come the MoD itself in the form of further cuts to manpower and equipment. I could quote the AFPRB comments on low moral, shortages, gapping, poor retention, high outflow, low recruitment, understrength etc etc, but it appears that this is not worth the ink.

[Willard Whyte]

Seems relatively straightforward, if a tad underhand.

This year someone on £50K from Apr '17 to '18 will get £51K plus £450 as a one-off at some point before April '19. Much as previous 'retention bonuses' were taxed but not pensionable I'm pretty certain this will be the same.

If next year's rise is 2%, and on time, they'll get £52,020 from April '19.

[Pontius Navigator]

As OAP may remember we had a similar pay horlick before. We got an inflation pay rise every 6 weeks or so but it was not swept up into pay scales.

[Lima Juliet]

Seems relatively straightforward, if a tad underhand.

This year someone on £50K from Apr '17 to '18 will get £51K plus £450 as a one-off at some point before April '19. Much as previous 'retention bonuses' were taxed but not pensionable I'm pretty certain this will be the same.

If next year's rise is 2%, and on time, they'll get £52,020 from April '19.

Yes WW, I believe that is correct. Also I read that RRP(F) is getting the full 2.9% without any “0.9% fru fru”. Which is better than the Stewards, AIrborne Movers, PJIs and Shakeys/Blades who got no increase on their RRPs.

[OKOC]

I see no mention of a transition period - so are a bunch of pilots going to see a pay cut next month?

Back in the day my flying pay was included in my mortgage calculation...
But not in your pension love Pre PAS boo!

[Jumping_Jack]

Just been looking at the AFPRB Report. Recommended 2.9% on base pay. Ministers 'written response' is that they are accepting 'the spirit of the recommendation' by increasing base pay by 2% and a one off taxable non-pensionable 0.9% 'to be paid later in the FY' (no date commitment). Weasel words once again that short change the Armed Forces personnel....and they wonder why there is a recruitment and retention problem.......

[skydiver69]

Just been looking at the AFPRB Report. Recommended 2.9% on base pay. Ministers 'written response' is that they are accepting 'the spirit of the recommendation' by increasing base pay by 2% and a one off taxable non-pensionable 0.9% 'to be paid later in the FY' (no date commitment). Weasel words one again that short change the Armed Forces personnel....and they wonder why there is a recruitment and retention problem.......

They did almost exactly the same to the police last year giving us 2% split between a permanent 1% and a 1% bonus. This year we were awarded 2% by the government but as we lost last year's 1% bonus the net effect was a 1% rise this year. Our 'independent' pay remuneration body had recommended 2.8%. Police are also starting to see recruitment and retention problems as well, although pay is only one of many issues facing constabularies.