HMS Hermes Finally Sails Away

[ORAC]

I wonder if they'll preserve or scrap her........

INS Viraat to be decommissioned today ? Details of the aircraft carrier, which served Navy for 30 years | Zee News (http://zeenews.india.com/india/ins-viraat-to-be-decommissioned-today-details-of-the-aircraft-carrier-which-served-navy-for-30-years_1983837.html)

New Delhi - 8th May: A glorious era of the flagship of the Indian Navy, the INS Viraat, which has spent 30 years in the Navy, will end on Monday. INS Viraat, the second aircraft carrier in the Indian naval fleet, whch was earlier with in the Royal Navy of United Kingdom, will be decommissioned today.

Earlier known as HMS Hermes, the ship was in the Royal Navy from 1959. In the late 80s, Indian Navy purchased it at the cost of $65 million and was re-commissioned on 12 May, 1987.

Chief of Naval Staff, Admiral Sunil Lanba - who was once the executive officer of the ship in 1998 - will be present for the momentous occasion, along with some officers and men from India and United Kingdom who serve with her, Flag Officer Commanding in Chief, Western Naval Command, Vice-Admiral Girish Luthra, said.

At sunset on March 6, the Naval Ensign and Commissioning Pendent will be lowered for the last time on board INS Viraat symbolising the end of her glorious era in Indian naval history, Vice-Admiral Luthra said taking around a media contingent on board the ship for the last time.

Presently, INS Vikramaditya is the only serving aircraft carrier of the Indian Navy and the second one, named Vikrant, is under construction at Cochin Shipyard Ltd.

It is the longest serving ship in the history, an official communication from the Western Naval Command said. Asked about the future of the ship, Luthra said the decision will be taken by the Union government.......

YwKAytdoMfM

[pasta]

Laid down in 1944, and outliving all the Invincible-class carriers that were built to replace her.

[Hangarshuffle]

A lot of history comes with the ship.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Hermes_(R12)
Has it got a big dent in the round-down from a Buccaneer, or it is just a myth?

[tucumseh]

The day before the official handover ($65M? I thought it was paid in trade offsets) we were at Culdrose, and the Indian brass were beside us in the Ward Room for lunch. Cooks had made umpteen different curries. An Admiral turned to us and said "I wanted fish and chips".

The contract said, everything on board at 12 noon belonged to India. Off they went with a crate of our Blue Fox Mk2 test equipment, which could never test their version. A few months later, they'd complained it didn't work, and we were told to sort it out. Contractors Working Party dispatched to India, quietly swap it and get home quick.

[Fonsini]

Has Argentina claimed the kill yet ?

Sorry - did I say that out loud :}

[Mogwi]

A lot of history comes with the ship.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Hermes_(R12)
Has it got a big dent in the round-down from a Buccaneer, or it is just a myth?

Don't remember that HS but I know that HMS Idefatigable went to the scrappy with a crease in the roundown left by Mog senior's Seafire!

[Marcantilan]

Has Argentina claimed the kill yet ? Sorry - did I say that out loud

That was very interesting. A friend of mine is just writing a book about HMS Hermes and the desinformation war. It looks like that, on certain point, the Argentine Air Force was pretty convinced Hermes was hit.

In fact, even the FCO challenged the MoD asking if that was true!

But...

http://i.imgur.com/eWoM6MO.jpg

Regards!

[Martin the Martian]

Mirages or Skyhawks may have gotten away with it, but I wouldn't give a rodent's behind for the chances of any Pucara giving it a shot.

[Fonsini]

I seem to recall the Argentinians claimed that Invincible was sunk and that Hermes was hit and damaged.

Both complete nonsense of course, but to be fair exaggeration and misdirection during wartime are SOP for most nations.

[madinthehead]

From my time on board in the 1980's:

"Doctor, doctor, I think I've got Hermes!"
"Hermes? What are you talking about, are you sure you don't mean herpes?"
"No, I think I'm a carrier!"

I thank you. I'll get me coat on the way out...............

[4Greens]

It may still have some dents from my Scimitar.

[VP-F__]

My brother had his 5th birthday whilst we were under occupation in 82, his cake was made in the shape of HMS Hermes complete with marzipan harriers with the real thing flying overhead!

[Always a Sapper]

Are we buying it back...

[sandiego89]

4Greens


Would love to hear some tales 4Greens. The cat stroke looks so short on the Hermes- must have been quite a ride!

Could this be 4greens in the fancy Tiger striped helmet? :) Great Scimitar launch sequence if you forward to ~10 minutes.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsE9oCdSEEI

tsE9oCdSEEI

Some other great Scimitar videos here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KlSrUJg8mJY

KlSrUJg8mJY

Hermes

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LFzRtOuj5GQ

LFzRtOuj5GQ

Victorious & Hermes

[SpazSinbad]

First Ever DLs A4Gs & S2Es Nov 1968 HMS Hermes

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=loOq0QyFYT0

[4Greens]

Tiger stripes were for 804 Squadron. The softest arrest I had was when they left a Gannet setting on the wires. My wire broke and I just managed a sharp right turn onto a fortunately clear flight deck. Me left wheel was right on the edge of the deck. A very close call.

[melmothtw]

Both complete nonsense of course, but to be fair exaggeration and misdirection during wartime are SOP for most nations.

Only thing is, many in Argentina still believe it to be true today. I was chatting with an Argentinean colleague a couple of years ago about this, and he was adamant that Invincible (he didn't mention Hermes) was hit and severely damaged during the war, and that "the truth will come out".

My arguments could not dissuade him. Not even when I pointed out that there were hundreds of personnel on the ship and thousands in the task force (with hundreds of thousands of relatives back home whom they would have spoken to), and yet in more than 30 years not one of them has ever said; "You know what, we were hit and we've covered it up all this time".

[4Greens]

Once the UK nuclear sub sank the Belgrano the Argentine navy wisely never left port.

[Marcantilan]

Once the UK nuclear sub sank the Belgrano the Argentine navy wisely never left port.

In fact, Belgrano was sunk on May 2nd, and the bulk of the fleet entered port on May 10th.

Regards!

[NutLoose]

It does make one wonder though why we sell on ships supposedly past their sell by date, that go onto serve another 30 years of front line service in another man's navy, it makes you wonder if we really are getting value for money from some of our assets.

[Pontius Navigator]

Nutty,and often after a refit before sale.

[sandiego89]

It does make one wonder though why we sell on ships supposedly past their sell by date, that go onto serve another 30 years of front line service in another man's navy, it makes you wonder if we really are getting value for money from some of our assets.
In think the UK got her money out of the Hermes....


As for serving on with other nations for many more years, I think there is some distinction between serving in front line service with a top tier Navy and "lingering" on in a second or third life- even it is regarded as "front line". Most US and UK Navy ships seem to have been run quite hard while in main service, but by and large got some level of support and upgrades during their active service. After 30 or so years they are tired. As they aged they needed more care and in some cases they got it- but in many cases the level of support drops off and the new owner does enough to keep them running, but not really the same level of support- and they are really not really top tier assets any more. While India did well with keeping the ex-Hermes going (and the earlier Virant), I think most analysts would agree that these ships were no longer top assets on the world stage, even if they were the flagship of the Nation. Several nations wanted the status of being a carrier nation, but in reality the ships got few underway days- and some lingered on well past their prime. Many passed down warships see far fewer steaming hours than they did in prior lives. Maintaining aging warships properly requires massive investments. Much like keeping a 20+ plus year old car in top condition. Sometimes buying new is the way to go, but for many nations buying used is all they can afford. Manning is another issue. It takes a large number of sailors to keep an aging steam powered ship running.


Please this is no slight on the professional sailors from India or any other nation- just a comment that there are some differences and distinctions between "front line" service.


The 25 de Mayo was in "front line" service decades after the Majestic's had been retired/sold off by the UK.

[Not_a_boffin]

It does make one wonder though why we sell on ships supposedly past their sell by date, that go onto serve another 30 years of front line service in another man's navy, it makes you wonder if we really are getting value for money from some of our assets.


It's also worth remembering that sometimes the cost (to the UK) of operating those assets is the reason for replacing with newer assets.


Take manning - Hermes had a ships complement (ex airgroup) north of 1000 - and was steam powered. She was replaced by the Ark (V) which only needed 700 or so to run her and was powered by GTs in common with most of the rest of the fleet.


We binned the T22B2s because they needed 250-odd crew instead of the 190 or so on the T23.


I'd love to say we get equivalent numbers of newer platforms as a result, but we don't. But at least we can afford to operate (mostly...) the ones we've got.

[4Greens]

Mercantlan,

I said left.

[ORAC]

https://ahmedabadmirror.indiatimes.com/columns/the-informer/iconic-ins-viraat-to-be-dismantled-at-alang/articleshow/77711135.cms

Iconic INS Viraat to be dismantled at Alang

[jolihokistix]

Always remember that Hermes joke...

[NutLoose]

Has Argentina claimed the kill yet ? Sorry - did I say that out loud

That was very interesting. A friend of mine is just writing a book about HMS Hermes and the desinformation war. It looks like that, on certain point, the Argentine Air Force was pretty convinced Hermes was hit.

In fact, even the FCO challenged the MoD asking if that was true!

But...



Regards!

Hey Merc are you aware we had your codes? It was in a recent magazine I read..

see

https://www.theregister.com/2020/05/18/maximator_euro_spy_alliance_falklands_war/

[MAINJAFAD]

Has Argentina claimed the kill yet ? Sorry - did I say that out loud

That was very interesting. A friend of mine is just writing a book about HMS Hermes and the desinformation war. It looks like that, on certain point, the Argentine Air Force was pretty convinced Hermes was hit.

In fact, even the FCO challenged the MoD asking if that was true!

But...

http://i.imgur.com/eWoM6MO.jpg

Regards!

If memory serves, this picture shows the death of the First Argentine pilot killed by the British and what was told to the next of kin. Did the true story involve a Pucara....Yes. Did it involve HMS Hermes....Yes. Did the two platforms get a sighting of each other....Humm NO they were about 100 miles apart at least and both were on the surface. However a SHAR from Hermes did drop a CBU on said Pucara as it was starting engines during the first air attack on Goose Green Airfield on 1st May 82. Killed the Pilot and a number of ground crew.

[Marcantilan]

Hello NutLoose,

Yes I was aware! In fact, I was interviewed early this year (when Coronavirus was only a Chinese problem...those times...) by Swiss TV about it. But, I had a terrible haircut at the time, so I will not share the interview with you.

If you check ARG and UK once secret documents, you could see ARG signals sent and, less than 24 hours later, the same signal translated and analyzed by some British down south. For example, submarine ARA Santa Fe made a SITREP, was intercepted by HMS Endurance, sent to Northwood and then the same SITREP was received by HMS Conqueror.

ARG Navy replaced most Crypto AG equipment twenty years ago (after the war, it was clear the comms were not secure at all...and Ted Rowlands helped on that), but some machines still remains in use.

Regards!

[NutLoose]

Thanks :)

..........

[N707ZS]

It does make one wonder though why we sell on ships supposedly past their sell by date, that go onto serve another 30 years of front line service in another man's navy, it makes you wonder if we really are getting value for money from some of our assets.
A number of C130 Hercules seem to have also gone the same way.

[Kiltrash]

Caught on the news last night that Hermes is now beached at the breakers and 5% already removed, will take a year to go...
Sad she could not be saved somewhere. Know it would cost loads of money.
Anyone know of at least the ships bell to be saved?

[Asturias56]

"Sad she could not be saved somewhere. Know it would cost loads of money."

Unfortunately the number of historic ships and aircraft that people would like to save far outstrips the ability to raise cash to buy them , and then to keep them................ When you think about there is no Stirling, Wellington. Whitley, Halifax, Typhoon, Tempest still flying - astonishing

[aw ditor]

Thought there was a Wimpey at Brooklands and a Halifax oop' North in Yorkshire?

[Bing]

Caught on the news last night that Hermes is now beached at the breakers and 5% already removed, will take a year to go...
Sad she could not be saved somewhere. Know it would cost loads of money.
Anyone know of at least the ships bell to be saved?

I would have thought the bell with 'Hermes' on was probably saved when she was sold to India? So probably in one of the RN museum collections if not on actual display.

[ORAC]

Sad she could not be saved somewhere. Know it would cost loads of money.


https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/hope-fades-for-viraat-museum-after-images-show-warship-partly-dismantled-2338614

[muppetofthenorth]

Thought there was a Wimpey at Brooklands and a Halifax oop' North in Yorkshire?
There's a Halifax at Elvington, but it's nowhere near / never going to fly.

[NutLoose]

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/759x422/vikrant_1_759_d69d0684de98fb8f8e15231545a6d7c1e9b2f101.jpg

[NutLoose]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLF-fg7h5xU&feature=emb_logo

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=In0wfK01h14

[NutLoose]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPh7U_Zyusw

[ExAscoteer2]

There's a Halifax at Elvington, but it's nowhere near / never going to fly.

It's also not a Halifax, but a 'bitsa', It poses as a MkIII, but the fuselage is actually from a MkII, with wings from a Hastings.

[meleagertoo]

With regard to the Trackers and others, how did radial engines take to (presumably) being whacked to full power upon touchdown, I thought they were very much averse to such treatment, or did they use a different technique?

[Case One]

Sad to see a great ship go, but there was never any serious prospect of her being preserved.

[NutLoose]

It's also not a Halifax, but a 'bitsa', It poses as a MkIII, but the fuselage is actually from a MkII, with wings from a Hastings.



Which are the same wings, there is also the restored on at Trenton, that came out of the Norgie Lake, another two are located in the oggin they are trying to raise funding for and the Hendon one.... But as the RAF Museum appears to be planning another fire sale, lets hope it survives that!

http://www.57rescuecanada.com/


If the Panton brothers had been allowed by their father to purchase the last derelict Halifax bomber instead of the currently undergoing rebuild to fligh Lancaster, who knows what might have come to pass.

[ExAscoteer2]

Which are the same wings

It's still a 'bitsa'. ;)

there is also the restored on at Trenton, that came out of the Norgie Lake

Aye the MkVII Glider Tug.

another two are located in the oggin

I know of the one in Lough Foyle, but I doubt the other one NW of Ireland is recoverable?


they are trying to raise funding for and the Hendon one.... But as the RAF Museum appears to be planning another fire sale, lets hope it survives that!

Indeed!

[NutLoose]

They found the spars in a scappy on Malta they are planing to use on the raised one.

Canadian Halifax Project Seeks to Resurrect Planes, from Parts if Necessary | Warbirds News (http://warbirdsnews.com/warbirds-news/canadian-halifax-project-seeks-resurrect-planes-parts.html)

[NutLoose]

The old girl made the iTV news, some excellent footage.

https://www.itv.com/news/2020-12-15/worlds-oldest-warship-hms-hermes-being-decommissioned-in-india

[Downwind.Maddl-Land]

Which are the same wings

Never knew the Hastings carried bombs/freight in the wing root cells! :p

(For the avoidance of doubt - the YAM Halibag replica does have Hastings wings which are not quite the same ie no wing root bomb cells present. Source: personal inspection, albeit last year. But, hey, a good looking replica is better than what preceded it - ie nothing! :))

[NutLoose]

With regard to the Trackers and others, how did radial engines take to (presumably) being whacked to full power upon touchdown, I thought they were very much averse to such treatment, or did they use a different technique?

Never seemed a problem during WW2 and quite often on smaller carriers, I would have thought gas turbines would be more susceptible to problems with Labyrinth seals

[Whenurhappy]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jPh7U_Zyusw
Friable asbestos. Lovely.

[Mogwi]

Never seemed a problem during WW2 and quite often on smaller carriers, I would have thought gas turbines would be more susceptible to problems with Labyrinth seals


Full chat on touch-down only became SOP with the advent of the angled deck. Before that, if you missed a wire you ended up in the barrier! As MOGWI senior discovered.

Although to be fair, his donk quit due to enemy action on short finals and he bounced off the round-down and started to disintegrate in the air before he hit the barrier.

Mog

[Shaft109]

Friable asbestos. Lovely.

Literally did a double take at them just scraping it out...nasty stuff.

[NutLoose]

I saw it too and thought no it can’t be, no ones that stupid.

[Whenurhappy]

I saw it too and thought no it can’t be, no ones that stupid.
Clearly, they are...

[pasta]

Clearly, they are...
Or desperate. If you have a family to feed, and that's the only job going, you might feel you have no choice.

[NutLoose]

It makes you wonder the ethics in it all, the west using these places to scrap their ships while getting around the health and safety regs at home and scrapping on the cheap... against bringing work to much needed areas and supporting their families.

[Bengo]

Firstly this is not the west scrapping the ship - It is the Indian Government. Much of Viraat/Hermes steel is pre-nuclear and therefore more valuable than ordinary scrap steel.

Second thing is the law now requires western ship owners to scrap them in approved ship recycling facilities. There have been big fines for companies caught avoiding this.
N

[pasta]

Yep - Hermes was sold to India as a going concern (and quite a long time ago). Invincible and Illustrious were both scrapped in Turkey, where I should imagine the H&S and environmental regulations are more in line with our own.

[ORAC]

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/716x644/image_2d81d1af4486dac44ff6e46ffd4f0eec6c696139.png