KC-??

[ORAC]

Here we go again. Not a KC-X/Y/Z tanker - the KC-46 is the X/Y airframe to replace the current 135 fleet and the Z is a strategic KC-10 tanker replacement in the 777 size class.

I can understand the wish to have atankrr to allow the F-35A to actual get within reach of any targets in the Pacific theatre - but on top of the escalating costs of that program, and the existing wish list of B-21 fleet and escorting PCA fighter, where is the money tree supposed to come from?

Air Mobility Command head calls for more survivable tanker fleet (http://www.defensenews.com/articles/air-mobility-command-head-calls-for-more-survivable-tanker-fleet)

[Pontius Navigator]

Sounds a bit like Dale Brown's B52 mother ship or even earlier bomber mounted fighters like the Gnat.

[Fonsini]

I always thought that a Victor tanker fitted with a Blue Vixen nose and 20 AMRAAMs would have been an interesting idea, what with all the performance advantages it had over the more typical civilian aircraft types.

But then the "flying battleship" concept has been talked about a lot, but ultimately never found to be practical, except for the Old Dog of course (Day Of The Cheetah was more my cup of tea).

[ORAC]

IIRC Northrop did a concept for one. Basic shape like a P-38/Vixen with twin booms.

Each boom was unpressurised with integrated fuel tanks plus a flying boom and hose system, remotely controlled from the cockpit. Carbon composite and contoured for stealth.

The front section with cockpit and engines etc looked like a modified B-2 with a pressurised 2 man crew capsule with individual ejector seats and the copilot with a swing out AAR console.

No size given, but if for penetration with say a 4 ship package, I'd imagine somewhere between sized F-111 and KC-135.

[Fonsini]

Interesting - that defeated my Google skills, I couldn't find a design drawing of it.

I believe that Boeing once proposed something similar based on a 747 with an internal weapons bay, not sure about the refueling aspect.

[sandiego89]

Day Of The Cheetah was more my cup of tea


Gawd, think I threw that book on the floor when the took the heavily damaged Cheetah for a fly-by to salute for their departing hero the day after their mission. Not the only time I rolled my eyes with a Brown book, he usually had some good ideas but did not know when to stop....


I digress, the desire for more survivable and networked tankers seems to be building. Think those miles of cables in the KC-46 will come in handy as an interim step- it's really is becoming more than just passing gas....

[Pontius Navigator]

https://www.google.co.uk/search?sclient=tablet-gws&site=&source=hp&q=Northrop+fkying+battleship+project&oq=Northrop+fkying+battleship+project&gs_l=tablet-gws.12..30i10k1.2583.24630.0.26107.35.33.0.2.2.0.669.4322.22 j7j1j2j0j1.33.0....0...1c.1j4.64.tablet-gws..0.32.4071.0..0j35i39k1j0i131k1j0i13k1j0i8i13i30k1.TPUiZ cTQE-o#imgrc=ateHyGJ3u3Y1HM:

[ORAC]

That's one of the intriguing things. The concept was published and advertised for a couple of months, then vanished - and every mention of it then vanished. I could have imagined it of course, but I doubt it.....

[tdracer]

I believe that Boeing once proposed something similar based on a 747 with an internal weapons bay, not sure about the refueling aspect.
Fonsini, don't know if it's what you're thinking of, but back in the early 1980s, Boeing proposed a 747 cruise missile launcher. It was basically a 747-200F, with the cockpit isolated from the cargo bay such that they could depressurize the main deck while keeping the flight deck pressurized. There would be a large cargo door that could be opened in flight, and a bunch of rotary cruise missile launchers would rotate around the cargo bay - spitting out ~10 cruise missiles per launcher before rotating the next rotary launcher into position (120 missiles per 747 IIRC). The idea was to have a fleet of these 747 missile launchers that could loiter outside Soviet air defense range, then launch several thousand cruise missiles in minutes, overwhelming the Soviet air defenses.
The KC-46 has a whole lot of bumps and blisters unrelated to the aerial refueling task - presumably they incorporate self defense measures of some sort (I know a bit about that part but can't talk about it for obvious reasons).
My first thought regarding a stealth KC-? is they'd be looking at ~$20 billion development program before they ever produced a production tanker. That's a whole lot of money for some very questionable benefit (serious question, has a USAF or NATO tanker ever been successfully attacked while performing an aerial refueling mission?)

[Fonsini]

tdracer - that was indeed the one. I'm sure I saw it featured in Flight International sometime back in that era.

Pontius - thanks for the assist.

[stilton]

Sounds like KC-Z will cost around $1B each by the time they finish all the gold plating.


Wonder how long they can keep the KC135 going after the program is canceled for busting
the budget ?

[ImageGear]

Here you go,

CMCA (http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/why-boeings-design-for-a-747-full-of-cruise-missiles-ma-1605150371)

Looks like an oversized Gatling gun with cruise missiles.

Could be reconsidered in today's world...

Imagegear

[ICM]

Some further thoughts on the KC-Z idea:

https://eamonh.wordpress.com/2017/03/12/the-art-of-the-possible-building-a-survivable-tanker/

[Davef68]

Boeing's Blended wing design

Boeing: Blended Wing Body Back to the Tunnel (http://www.boeing.com/features/2016/09/blended-wing-body-09-16.page)

X47B was built in the UK

https://www.nasa.gov/centers/dryden/news/FactSheets/FS-090-DFRC.html

[ORAC]

https://www.airforcemag.com/after-kc-46-usaf-looks-ahead-to-bridge-tanker/

After KC-46, USAF Looks Ahead to ‘Bridge Tanker’

The Air Force is moving forward with its “bridge tanker” project—the air-refueling aircraft acquisition formerly known as “KC-Y”—in a “full and open competition” to replace the KC-135 Stratotanker fleet. It is a stepping stone to a more futuristic tanker, Air Mobility Command boss Gen. Jacqueline D. Van Ovost said Oct. 27. This particular tanker would bridge the gap in capabilities offered by the 179 Boeing KC-46s currently being delivered and a later tanker known as “KC-Z.”

Speaking at the Airlift/Tanker Association’s virtual conference, Van Ovost distinguished between the bridge tanker, ongoing studies of fee-for-service commercial tanking to bolster the military’s capacity, and the still-undefined KC-Z program. “The Secretary of the Air Force has committed to a continuous recapitalization of tanker aircraft,” Van Ovost said. “We’re going to have a bridge tanker—we’ll have a full and open competition—on an aircraft to continue to recapitalize … the KC-135.”

Stratotankers will be 70 years old when the Air Force receives its last KC-46, and maintaining the older tankers is getting too expensive, she said. “The longer we keep” the KC-135, she said, “the higher sustainment costs are going to be.”

This new tanker will be a “non-developmental” program, meaning it will be based on an existing, proven aircraft, according to an Air Mobility Command spokesperson. The Air Force is defining which capabilities it needs in its next tanker and how it will “immediately follow the existing KC-46A delivery timeline,” she said.

She did not say when the tanker competition will unfold. Industry officials have estimated that if the Air Force wants production of the aircraft to closely follow behind that of the KC-46, which is supposed to end around 2027, the service will need at least a five-year head start. That means initial funding for a bridge tanker may appear in the fiscal 2022 budget request now being crafted.

Only two tankers are mature enough for a competition of this kind: the KC-46 and the Airbus A330 Multi-Role Tanker Transport, which lost out to the KC-46 in the Air Force’s previous tanker contest in 2011. Boeing is expected to offer its KC-46 for the next competition as well, despite the program’s ongoing troubles. Lockheed Martin has teamed with Airbus to offer a variant of the A330 when the Air Force issues its request for proposals....

Michele A. Evans, Lockheed Martin Aeronautics vice president, told Air Force Magazine in September that the company expected the Air Force to issue a request for information by the end of December for the bridge tanker.

If the Lockheed-Airbus team’s A330 MRTT variant earns an Air Force contract, the work would be done in Marietta, Ga., in a space that has hosted C-5 and C-130 work. Evans said USAF has “made it clear they want to leverage commercial variants” for future tanker acquisitions.

When the Air Force chose the KC-46, it was partially because that jet is smaller than the A330. Its size allows for a larger buy and gives the Air Force more flexibility in spreading them around to airfields with smaller ramps and runways.

Service officials have said, however, that AMC is still interested in a large aircraft like the KC-10 that is headed for retirement. Bigger aircraft let fighter squadrons “self-deploy” alongside a tanker, ground crew and ground equipment in a single package, they argue.

[Asturias56]

What they need is a (relatively) cheap and simple aircraft they can afford to get into service in less than 5 years and not cost a lot.

Spending money on something they seem to think will be near r the front line will just stretch costs and development time so they'll finish up with a disaster. Those KC-135's won't go on forever - and there's always a chance some fatal fleet-wide flaw (as with the the RAF Valliant's way back) crops up and the whole fleet has to be grounded.

Jeez - just buy a lot of grounded 787's and fit probe and drogue tanks - nowhere near optimum but do-able

[BEagle]

Well no. Some very senior Boeing suit announced many years ago that the 787 "Does not have an appropriate configuration for a tanker" - whatever that might mean...

Whether that was an excuse to bolster the 767, I don't know. But that's what Boeing said. Foot...shotgun...??

[212man]

Well no. Some very senior Boeing suit announced many years ago that the 787 "Does not have an appropriate configuration for a tanker" - whatever that might mean...

Whether that was an excuse to bolster the 767, I don't know. But that's what Boeing said. Foot...shotgun...??

Maybe the composite structure fuselage isn’t well suited to having big holes cut in it? https://www.boeing.com/commercial/787/by-design/#/one-piece-barrel

[Imagegear]

I doubt Airbus would be up for the runaround again after the last debacle.

IG

[Blossy]

This 'merry go round' is getting tiresome. Will the US end up ignoring Airbus again?

[unmanned_droid]

Boeing's Blended wing design

Boeing: Blended Wing Body Back to the Tunnel (http://www.boeing.com/features/2016/09/blended-wing-body-09-16.page)

X47B was built in the UK

https://www.nasa.gov/centers/dryden/news/FactSheets/FS-090-DFRC.html
The X-48 Subscale demo's were made at Cranfield. Worked with a guy who used it for one of his studies.

There's been nothing about a BWB tanker transporter out of Boeing. Maybe it might get looked at for the farfield study but right now it's all about production aircraft.

I think there's less chance an LM/Airbus product will win this time than last.

I suggest the fuselage design of the 787 is not suited to cargo conversion beyond putting boxes on seats or limited cargo on seat rail secured pallets.

[Easy Street]

I doubt Airbus would be up for the runaround again after the last debacle.

IG

Establishing a new partnership with L-M (see this from a couple of years ago (https://financialpost.com/transportation/airlines/airbus-lockheed-team-up-against-boeing-to-bid-for-us35m-air-force-contract/wcm/46a4df49-d44a-439e-b4c1-b7d7f66767a6/amp/)) suggests that they’d already decided they were up for it. However, Boeing was in better health back then and it might have been conceivable that Airbus could win a genuine competition. Now, with Boeing in deep **** post-737 MAX and COVID, I should imagine that Congress will be looking for any excuse to funnel state aid, ahem, I mean award them another big DoD contract. Given the changed landscape I wonder if Airbus will reconsider, or at least insist that its bid costs be covered as a precondition of entering any competition.

[treadigraph]

Service officials have said, however, that AMC is still interested in a large aircraft like the KC-10 that is headed for retirement. Bigger aircraft let fighter squadrons “self-deploy” alongside a tanker, ground crew and ground equipment in a single package, they argue.

There may well be a few A380s available... almost new, one careful owner and all that... :p

[Una Due Tfc]

With a potential order of this magnitude, would an A338 derived tanker have enough potential advantages over the current A332 MRTT to justify development? I mean better fuel burn, higher MTOW and range etc? Or would the extra performance be insufficient to justify the the expense? I'm guessing if the 787 composite structure rules it out, then the A350 is in the same boat.

[unmanned_droid]

The A350 fuselage is more suited to punching holes in it due to its panel style assembly. There have been a few journalists reports this year about an A350 Freighter (above and beyond the temporary ones with economy class removed). I haven't heard anything from the shop floor on it though (not that that means much, being out of it for 7 months).

[Una Due Tfc]

Sorry to hear that droid. Hope you are back in business ASAP

[kiwi grey]

A "KC-38" based on the highest gross weight A330-800 blended with the nose-gear bulge,cargo door & cabin floor from the A330-200F, and incorporating the military features of the A332 MRTT would enable Airbus to launch a 'NEO freighter generation', available in 3 versions:

A338F straight freighter
"KC-38" straight tanker (boom and three hoses) / freighter, with additional tanks in the belly holds, so that with an empty main deck it can be fuelled to MTOW
"KC-38 Combi" Tanker (boom and two hoses) / transporter with fuselage windows and a fitted aft toilet+galley, plus provision for a forward toilet+galley. Can use palletised seats - including some 'business class' - etc for trooping, palletised patient care modules for medevac, a moveable barrier allowing mixed freight plus SLF

[unmanned_droid]

Sorry to hear that droid. Hope you are back in business ASAP

Thanks, appreciated.

[chopper2004]

The X-48 Subscale demo's were made at Cranfield. Worked with a guy who used it for one of his studies.

There's been nothing about a BWB tanker transporter out of Boeing. Maybe it might get looked at for the farfield study but right now it's all about production aircraft.

I think there's less chance an LM/Airbus product will win this time than last.

I suggest the fuselage design of the 787 is not suited to cargo conversion beyond putting boxes on seats or limited cargo on seat rail secured pallets.


In 2005 where I worked we put together the tooling and built the composite BWB for Cranfield (UAV dept) who were sub for Boeing Phantom Works as they originally went to NASA to build and supply the bodies but could not so they went to Cranfield instead.

They were below me on the hangar floor. As i recall these drop Test bodies were used to evaluate crashworthiness and ended up flown at NASA Armstrong (Dryden / Edwards) as fsr as I recall.

cheers

[Cyberhacker]

In 2005 where I worked we put together the tooling and built the composite BWB for Cranfield (UAV dept) who were sub for Boeing Phantom Works as they originally went to NASA to build and supply the bodies but could not so they went to Cranfield instead.

They were below me on the hangar floor. As i recall these drop Test bodies were used to evaluate crashworthiness and ended up flown at NASA Armstrong (Dryden / Edwards) as fsr as I recall.

We may know each other? Or again, maybe not...

Two air-vehicles were built... one was mostly a wind-tunnel fixture, but LSV2 flew quite a number of times, before being modified to X-48C standard (two engines and different fins)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FpuR3aq88og