NPAS 2017 news

[Cabby]

NPAS news - 6th March 2017.
NPAS Base Closures | NPAS (http://www.npas.police.uk/news/npas-base-closures)

[ShyTorque]

NPAS news - 6th March 2017.
NPAS Base Closures | NPAS (http://www.npas.police.uk/news/npas-base-closures)

With regard to the following quote from that document:

“This new fleet will be able to stay in the air for longer and will be faster and able to operate over greater distances and for longer periods than our helicopter fleet. They will also be less vulnerable to adverse weather conditions.

Some points to consider:

1. The only weather conditions (apart from very high wind speeds that would prevent a rotor start and would also probably preclude fixed wing Ops) that would stop an IFR equipped helicopter from flying would be airframe icing. Do these new miraculous fixed wing have full icing protection and a proven record of safe operations in icing conditions?

2. With regard to very high wind speeds, Doncaster has just one runway. What are the crosswind limits for the new fixed wing aircraft? Helicopters aren't adversely affected by crosswinds, from a practical point of view, because they have no need for a runway.

3. On the subject of runways, from personal experience of fixed wing Ops from Doncaster (I was based there when it was known as Finningley), getting airborne can take quite some time if you're in a queue. Helicopters don't need to be held in a queue for a runway and can get airborne straight from dispersal outside the hangar.

4. The police job, by its very nature, requires VMC. If a helicopter can't be flown safely at a very low altitude in order to keep clear of low cloud, what chance would a fixed wing have? Even if a fixed wing could climb above cloud then have a higher cruise speed (for the longer transits now necessary) how will it let down to VMC below to begin the task?

So....how can a fixed wing be "less vulnerable to adverse weather conditions"?

More smoke and mirrors, methinks. It would be better to admit that police air operations are going to be even more limited due to ongoing budgetary constraints. But that wouldn't be good for the careers of those pulling the strings.

[the_flying_cop]

What a load of pony. I stopped flying prior to NPAS being formed, and have vowed never to return until it is scrapped.

At this rate, there won't be anything left by the time I get to retirement age!

A truly sorry state of affairs.

[MightyGem]

NPAS news - 6th March 2017.
That's a rehash of a news release from a couple of years ago? I was just reading it last month.

[tigerfish]

That man is typical of the current breed of Senior Officer, - two thirds Politician and one third Police Officer. Air support as we knew it, an immediate overhead back up to the officer on the ground is over. Thanks NPAS.

TF

[MaxR]

One third TF?

[tigerfish]

OK. Perhaps a bit less than that!

TF

[MightyGem]

And according to the news release, closing the bases has made NPAS less efficient, only being able to reach 97% of the population in 30 minutes instead of 98%.

[tigerfish]

Yes & I believe in father Christmas too! But more critically how many of our major cities outside London have a response in less than 15 minutes, to assist bobbies under threat on the ground? My unit used to do that in about 10 minutes back in the late 90's. And the knowledge that we carried high definition camera's saved many a bobby from a beating then. But I guess officer safety is not important today.

TF

[Pan Euro]

As somebody who spent over 7 years on an air ops unit and was part of that large and proud family that gave us one of the best police aviation systems in the world coupled with making aircraft manufactures listen I am so devastated by what has happened. One of the sad things is that those who should have known better were part of the problem. I always thought that turkeys never voted for Christmas but........! I know that things have to change and that organisations have to strive for value for money but I fail to see where that value is with this system. All it seems to have done is look after a small number of areas and to hell with the rest.

[Thomas coupling]

Oh dear,

Rumour on the street is that the vacancy for Safety Officer, NPAS is having to go out again - for the 3rd time in as many months.
And STILL human remains and the accountable manager don't get the message??:mad:
So what does the CAA say about a largish onshore outfit not having a safety officer for the whole of 2017 so far? Let's keep fingers and toes crossed for no accidents then shall we.

Moving onto the next debacle: Who briefed the respective PCC's to swap their all singing all dancing modern helo for piston power props?
Were they warned that the product will almost certainly enter service heavier (much heavier) than forecast. Of course this means it will have a much reduced endurance and coming all the way from Doncaster (?) means its operating radius will be decimated. 20 minutes transit each way before going live on the job eh? Nice one - well thought out lads?

Oh - and what do we have here - they need petrol. And where do they get petrol from, out of hours, methinks? Which airfield will that be then?
Poor PCC's - lamb's to the slaughter.:D

Bad weather and icing issues as mentioned earlier - tut tut. :ugh:

Any more clever ideas from the top, guys?

Who is the project officer for the introduction of FW then? I'd wager a weeks salary they aren't aviators.......

Watch how quiet it goes once the evidence stacks up for FW.
Watch the PCC's squirm and wriggle with this one..............:ok:

[Sky Sports]

I thought the plan was for the 3 rotary bases to stay open until the fixed wing were up-and-running?

Does this mean that huge areas of England will be without a 20/30 minute response until the end of the year?

Has somebody done a risk analysis of leaving places like Norwich out on a limb, and what will the 97% figure drop to?

[PANews]

The fixed wing team are a former GMP pilot and the Assistant Ops Director is a former Army air corps officer. Third member is a sergeant TFO.

[MightyGem]

Who briefed the respective PCC's to swap their all singing all dancing modern helo for piston power props?

The NPAS Board is still upbeat about it:
We are aware that the use of helicopters is restricted sometimes by weather and geography. In an effort to mitigate this NPAS will shortly commence the introduction of fixed wing aircraft with flight into known icing capability. The four aircraft will be fully operational in early 2018 and offer police forces additional all weather capability.

[the_flying_cop]

PA news, do you have the initials for the ex gmp fw driver?

[ShyTorque]

I've now managed to answer my own question wrt to weather limits. According to the flight manual for the chosen aircraft, it is not cleared for flight into known icing conditions, or at least wasn't at the time of publication. The demonstrated maximum cross wind is 25 kts.

[MightyGem]

According to the flight manual for the chosen aircraft, it is not cleared for flight into known icing conditions
The NPAS Board obviously thinks otherwise.

[predrone]

QUOTE
“This new fleet will be able to stay in the air for longer and will be faster and able to operate over greater distances and for longer periods than our helicopter fleet.... UNQUOTE

Really... adding to those points already made by ShyTorque and TC. Rumour has it that the plank, fully fitted, will have an endurance approximately ten minutes less than that of the EC135 T2+. If rumour is correct, the above statement seems a little like … wishful thinking. The AM, however, will probably argue: not a lot in it, cheaper to run etc. Nice, new, shiny aircraft and a glossy, contemporary, new base at Doncaster. Would be interesting to know: whether, when, if ever the cost of a shiny new base was factored in!

Let us hope it is not yet another police air base, built at enormous cost to the tax payer, only to be abandoned in the next round of cuts; or at the whim of the next or future AM whose perpetual, personal strategy is to ascend the career ladder!

On a positive note, the plank will offer those areas within an hour or so of Doncaster some sort of service, although not quite the same as that given by a helicopter. If, however, the plank ventures too far from home, it will probably struggle to find a place to refuel, out of normal airfield operating hours. It might, also, need to waste costly airborne time, in the event that they are cancelled after take-off, in order to reduce down to maximum landing weight!

Ultimately, it all depends on what sort of service has been promised to the police chiefs and PCCs, particularly those operating in the more rural parts of England and Wales, who have lost their helicopters. Perhaps, they are fully informed and content with the situation under these so called budgetary restraints! Judging by the latest press release and if rumour is correct, it would appear unlikely! Perhaps, as CC Byrne, previously suggested the dreaded drones will fill the gap!

[PANews]

It appears that the name of the game is that NPAS are paying for the P68R to be certified to meet the icing requirement.

I have not had sight yet of any document that states that certification has yet been acheived.

I expect that certification work lies with either Airborne Technologies in Austria and/or Vulcanair in Italy. As the first certifiable airframe only appears to have been completed late last year, will only be delivered in late June, and a 'fully operational' unit is not expected to be on line until January next year it may well be that the process is ongoing.

So "not certified but hopeful" appears the situation. I am no engineer but I assume that adding the weight of de-icing gear will alter the weight, balance and performance somewhat. So any readily available documents will relate to a different, lighter, version of the P68R.

[kaitakbowler]

I understand NPAS Warton stands down today, can I just say thank you to all involved in the operation and support of the operation.

PM

[4468]

I confess to not knowing much about the P68. But I do have some relevant experience, albeit from a little while ago.

The simple facts of the matter are these. Even in the halcyon days when helicopters were operated by individual forces, and were therefore on top of incidents within 5-10 minutes. Truth is that 50% (or likely more?) of jobs benefitted little from the attendance of air support. Now the assets are based even further away from the action, I can't see that ratio improving? I also suspect a greater proportion from the 'useful' 50% could now be handled just as easily by a FW as a RW, since by definition the delay in attendance is likely to mean a more static ('colder') situation upon arrival overhead. Sad but true, and an inevitable consequence of NPAS.

IMVHO, and speaking in very broad brush terms, it was always my opinion that a FW asset, could achieve (about?) 67% of the capability of a helicopter at (about?) 50% of the price. So there is a perfectly reasonable financial case to be made, if cost cutting (or dogma?) is the only consideration.

The only true drawback that a FW had back in my day, (may not be the case now?) was an inability to utilise nitesun effectively. Combined with an obvious inability to hover, this made directing ground troops by only radio commentary, a far more difficult skill. (That's in an Islander at 40kts, I see the P68 advertises a min mission speed of 75kts?) Much easier to simply point the nitesun and watch the good guys just make their way to it.

Obviously electronic surveillance, or comms, is an easy win for FW over RW.

However....

Anyone thinking that an IFR capability, along with an icing clearance, will 'obviously' improve air support coverage, maybe being a little disingenuous, or simply hasn't thought things through. Particularly likely if they are dealing with people holding the purse strings who have no knowledge of flying.

Notwithstanding the fact that once IMC, any descent below MSA, is likely to require an IFR letdown.

I'd be very interested if anyone knows the fuel endurance of one of these birds, when fully crewed and carrying all the internal and external role equipment required. Then factor in how much fuel would be required to reach an IFR destination after a 'job', AND STILL RETAIN the ADDITIONAL fuel to divert to an IFR alternate, make a second approach there and land with IFR final reserve fuel? (Usually 30 minutes.) You may be lucky in some parts of the country, with lots of 24 hour airfields? Other parts of the country, particularly after a lengthy transit, it just may not be possible?

Just my tuppence worth.

[PANews]

I guess that the former Lancashire UEO Steve Fitgerald will be greatly saddened [if not devastated] at the confirmation of this closure but at least he still has his Carribean operation in the Cayman Islands to look after.

[MightyGem]

Devon and Cornwall Police to launch UK's first 24-hour drone unit
https://www.964eagle.co.uk/news/uk-news/2249976/devon-and-cornwall-police-to-launch-uks-first-24-hour-drone-unit/

I wonder if the following influenced their decision? In the year before they joined NPAS, D&C's Air Support budget was £1,379,610 and they flew 1000 hours, giving an hourly rate of £1380. In 2015/16 they paid NPAS £1,673,000 for 537 hours, an hourly rate of £3115.
https://www.dropbox.com/s/nf2gdpx4lir6buh/NPAS.pdf?dl=0

[Digital flight deck]

Devon and Cornwall Police to launch UK's first 24-hour drone unit
https://www.964eagle.co.uk/news/uk-n...ur-drone-unit/

I think the future of air support has arrived and the inevitable end state of the 5 base model is around the corner. Rural counties operating drones under the governance of NPAS is the way things seem to be going. I wonder how all the air support, drones and helicopters, will be funded and what chance of survival NPAS will have when there are just a few units in large urban areas and drones run by local forces.

[Pan Euro]

RIP Suffolk Constabulary Air Operations Unit which closes on Friday, another sad day. God help the officers in Norfolk, Suffolk and Cambridgeshire who will get a totally second class service.

[MaxR]

I have to disagree with you Pan Euro - I don't think they'll receive a second class service. It is likely to be much, much worse than that.

[G0ULI]

As a resident and with a daughter in the Force, I can assure you that there is effectively no air support available in Norfolk unless booked days in advance. Plenty of drones and North Sea traffic though.

[Rotate too late]

As a resident and with a daughter in the Force, I can assure you that there is effectively no air support available in Norfolk unless booked days in advance. Plenty of drones and North Sea traffic though.

I agree with a previous post re the five base model, if you live in a large city, you're FAR more important than someone out in the cuds. Someone in Tottenham could look forward to almost continuous air cover, Redhil, Lippits and Boreham. Cromer? Norwich? Yarmouth? Tough ****.....

[MaxR]

And the most amazing thing is how few people seem to know or care.

[Mike Flynn]

Taxpayers would rather see the huge sums spent on helicopters deployed elsewhere.

Using the money saved to employ officers on the streets is a more cost effective method of fighting crime.

Missing persons can be located using cheap drones and stolen cars are best left to insurance companies.

If the reality tv police shows are anything to go by 99% of helicopter use is for chasing petty criminals.

[John Eacott]

Taxpayers would rather see the huge sums spent on helicopters deployed elsewhere.

Using the money saved to employ officers on the streets is a more cost effective method of fighting crime.

And just what money has been saved by NPAS to be used elsewhere?

I think you may want to check on the effectiveness of rotary air support before you make your claim about beat coppers being a better method of crime fighting, too.

[Mike Flynn]

And just what money has been saved by NPAS to be used elsewhere?

I think you may want to check on the effectiveness of rotary air support before you make your claim about beat coppers being a better method of crime fighting, too.

The answer to your question is in this BBC report from two years ago.

Remote-controlled drones could help Suffolk Police cut the costs of using helicopters, it has been suggested.
Police and Crime Commissioner Tim Passmore proposed the move to address the £800,000 annual bill for the National Police Air Service (NPAS).
Drones could help survey borders, monitor organised crime and combat people trafficking, he said.
Alternatively, he suggested, all the county's blue-light teams could share one helicopter to help keep costs down.
Speaking to the BBC, Mr Passmore said the force's bill for the helicopter was calculated on a historic basis and he considered it too high.
Suffolk has to pay £800,000 a year for 250 flight hours but Norfolk pays less at £360,000 for fewer hours every year.

Currently the helicopter is based at Wattisham Airfield and is run by NPAS but in two years' time it will move to a new station at Boreham, near Chelmsford, Essex.
The move would mean extra journey time for operational work done in Suffolk and possibly extra cost, said Mr Passmore.
Tim Passmore believes the helicopter bill is unacceptable
"I made it quite clear that we will not be paying that money," he said.
Discussions with acting chief constable Gareth Wilson have been held and alternative ways of spending money are being sought, including unmanned drones.
Some drones, with infra-red camera capabilities could be used to help all manner of challenges the force faces, including improving border safety and monitoring organised crime, he said.

[ShyTorque]

"Border safety"? What is meant by that term?

Bearing in mind that drones need to be flown in line of sight, the effectiveness of their use will mainly depend on the operator being in the right place at the right time. Hopefully most criminals won't think to drive off.

Regarding obtaining the certification for an icing clearance for these new fixed wing, how much is the monetary cost (and how long will this take)? It can't be done in UK, or any temperate climate as far as I can see.

[MaxR]

Taxpayers would rather see the huge sums spent on helicopters deployed elsewhere.

Using the money saved to employ officers on the streets is a more cost effective method of fighting crime.

Missing persons can be located using cheap drones and stolen cars are best left to insurance companies.

If the reality tv police shows are anything to go by 99% of helicopter use is for chasing petty criminals.

Jay, you're not talking to people who have gained their experience through watching TV shows. You are talking to people who, on the whole, have had many years experience on law enforcement helicopters effectively and efficiently catching criminals and helping save lives. It seems from your comments that you have not been fortunate enough to benefit from that experience.

[John Eacott]

The answer to your question is in this BBC report from two years ago.

I seriously suggest that you do some better research than a two year old article from Aunty Beeb.

Reading the copious amount of data on costs and lack of efficiency of NPAS in threads here on Rotorheads would be a good start. Boning up on "drone" use would be next.

[JulieAndrews]

night-flying drones?
just saying

[Mike Flynn]

The report cited the police commissioners plans two years ago to axe the helicopter funding
which he described as too high.

He said he was not going to pay and that is why Wattisham closed.

Suffolk is a mainly rural county with a low crime rate.

The police commissioner is an elected official and has saved a substantial amount of his budget to be spent elsewhere.

Norfolk did the same and seems to have managed quite well without a helicopter.

It is worth pointing out that most policing took place without air support a couple of decades ago.

[MaxR]

He said he was not going to pay and that is why Wattisham closed.

No, it isn't.

The police commissioner is an elected official and has saved a substantial amount of his budget to be spent elsewhere.

No, he hasn't - well, not from air support.

Norfolk did the same and seems to have managed quite well without a helicopter.

No, they didn't.

It is worth pointing out that most policing took place without air support a couple of decades ago.

No, it didn't.

Apart from that, Jay, you were spot on.

[Pan Euro]

Lets not forget that the Boreham base is living on borrowed time. The owners of the quarry want to move them off. Where do they go? Undoubtedly south to look after the big city, even less support for the boys and girls in the Fens. Now where could they move Boreham to apart from south? mmm there's an empty base at Wattisham !!!

[Mike Flynn]

The point you are all missing is that accountants look at the bottom line.

Most missing persons are found and the rest are dead as they set out to commit suicide.

Using a very expensive publicly funded police resource and personel is not cost effective.

Stolen car chases ,drunk drivers,petty drug dealers etc are also not going to deliver bang per buck with bean counters.

The incessant throb of helicopters over London is a major source of annoyance for those of us who have to spend time in the city. The regular political marches can be better policed by drones as can security issues.

The reality is that there are many situations where drones can do a better and more cost effective job than a twin turbine helicopter.

Low level power line survey and aerial filming being good examples.

The Wattisham police crew can be deployed back in the job and the five pilots can easily find work elsewhere.

Technology marches on...accept it.

[John Eacott]

Jay Sata,

You've jumped in to a Rotorheads issue of very long standing and I trust you will get taken to task for your ill informed and quite inappropriate meanderings. As a journalist you should know the value of research on a topic before putting pen to paper or fingers to the keyboard.

It would appear that you have done little or none. I commend to you previous threads dealing with NPAS and the lack of savings, financial and other reports posted after FoI returns, first hand experiences from police crews.

And the comment The Wattisham police crew can be deployed back in the job and the five pilots can easily find work elsewhere. shows a callous and total lack of understanding of the helicopter job market at the moment.

ps where do power line patrols and aerial filming fit into NPAS, please? The subject of this thread?

[Nigerian Expat Outlaw]

One of us is on another planet...........

NEO

[Mike Flynn]

NPAS was formed to deliver more cost effective police aerial support.

That is exactly what they are doing.

If you look at the twitter feeds on the NPAS site it is evident that many police helicopter sorties are still missing persons who turn up.

This from Bournmouth last night.

00:45 Hrs lifted to assist Avon and Somerset Police with a high risk missing person in South Somerset area. They returned home of their own accord safe and well as we arrived on scene. #DR
https://www.facebook.com/NPAS45/?hc_ref=PAGES_TIMELINE&fref=nf

Benson is the same.

NPAS Benson‏ @NPAS_Benson
1145hrs - lifted to assist @tvprp and @TVP_Oxford look for a stolen vehicle. No trace... #p1526


NPAS Benson‏ @NPAS_Benson
2015hrs - assisting @wiltshirepolice in Swindon looking for a missing male. Found with relatives. #p1526

What did those cost?

The money saved should be funnelled to solving crime.

A recent Freedom of Information request revealed fewer than 10 per cent of the 2,125,861 burglaries committed over six years were solved, with only 206,009 culprits identified.

Bedfordshire Police had the worst record on burglary, solving only 6 per cent of cases over six years.

Meanwhile they waste money on petty crime air support.

NPAS Benson‏ @NPAS_Benson
24/3 2300hrs searching Biggleswade area with @bedspolice & @BCHPoliceDogs unit after persons made off from a vehicle #p6572

Like many I want to see more police on the streets and not wasting money on what are mostly false alarms or stolen cars.

[Rotate too late]

Sadly Jay, whilst I believe you're misguided in your belief about air support, the police haven't got the resources to provide a decent service on the ground let alone in the air. As for the missing persons, the police model of threat harm risk means that even if I was on a "tasty" job, I would be pulled of that for the 80 year old dementia patient gone missing. I'm afraid that we are in a race to the bottom.
I can assure you that police aviation does have its place (dynamic incidents like we sadly saw in London) and of course, the unquantifiable deterrent. These will be unlikely to satisfy people like yourselves, Stats are not the be all and end all. Drones are not the answer to all the issues, but I agree that they have a place, but I'm curious as to how they will be employed. If we take the dog handler model for example, I see these guys pulled all over the area, very often turning up way too late to get a decent track, not their fault, just not enough of them.
You have your opinion, if we go, we go, but if it's just about money, then what's next? Dacia police cars? Or maybe we can look at the military? QE class? F35?
You can't have your cake and eat it chum.

[Sky Sports]

99.999999% of people think that sending up a helicopter to look for a missing person is a waste of money........................until, it is their parent or child who has gone missing. They then become the first to demand to know why the helicopter wasn't deployed. You can't win with some people and Jay strikes me as being one of them.

[Fuzz Burner]

Yawn.....another armchair expert. I must find a doctors forum and give my expert opinion on how much better they could run the NHS.

[[email protected]]

Hmmm,, he probably knows even less about armchairs than he does about police aviation!

[MaxR]

Most missing persons are found and the rest are dead as they set out to commit suicide.

I'd like to see your research on that.

Using a very expensive publicly funded police resource and personel is not cost effective.

Sorry, what is your mother worth? Or your child? Or your grandmother?

Stolen car chases ,drunk drivers,petty drug dealers etc are also not going to deliver bang per buck with bean counters.

Yes, I suppose you have a valid point, saving lives is not very cost-efficient.

The incessant throb of helicopters over London is a major source of annoyance for those of us who have to spend time in the city.

The incessant drone of journalists is a source of annoyance for those of us with some knowledge or the ability to research a topic fully before expressing an opinion.

The regular political marches can be better policed by drones as can security issues.The reality is that there are many situations where drones can do a better and more cost effective job than a twin turbine helicopter.

Haven't researched drones then either, have we?

Low level power line survey and aerial filming being good examples.

Low level power line survey and aerial filming being poor examples.

The Wattisham police crew can be deployed back in the job and the five pilots can easily find work elsewhere.

And, have you bothered to research what is actually happening to the crews? Here's a clue for you, it's nothing like you suggest.

Having a opinion on a topic is one thing, spouting nonsense after a few minutes on Google, Facebook and Twitter is quite another. If you are a journalist I hope that isn't a reflection of the lazy way you might go about putting together a story.

[Non-PC Plod]

I have no doubt that there are cost-efficient applications for drones. Maybe policing crowds at football matches etc - where it is over a relatively restricted area, for an extended time. I suspect they would not be effective at searching 20 miles of remote coastline for a misper, or searching a chunk of Snowdonia for a missing aircraft.
Unfortunately cost-effectiveness is not always easily quantifiable - if you launch 100 times and save one life - how do you measure that? worth it or not?
The protocol for vulnerable persons always used to be - send the helicopter, because it is better to send it and potentially waste a chunk of time & money as opposed to not send it and potentially waste a life.
If that protocol changes, it would represent a massive shift in ethos for the police.

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

I flew intensive Police Operations in the early 90s. My first shift in Newcastle we had 7 vehicle pursuits each with a different story. The first ended in a fatal fireball in pennwell and the Scrote bought the farm!

At that time, tennagers were inadvertently using stolen cars as deadly weapons. It was a countrywide epidemic. We did relatively few mispers and like most have posted, they ended up croaked or having a cup of tea. Vehicle theft or Twoccing, was a national epedimeic that threatenened the insurance system and presented intolerable risks to the public and the purps themselves who were, for the most part, very young boys and girls.

It did not take long. Police ASUs appeared all over the country and in a few years we went from a pair of stab binos to the stateoftheart thermal imagery and broadcast quality cameras. These assets killed twoccing stone dead in a few short years. They also greatly improved surveillance capability and this definitely improved crime fighting.

Now police aviation has matured. Twoccing will probably never return as long as The Eye in the Sky is there. The tasty jobs have gone precisely because the Helicopter exists. But take the Helicopter away and see what happens.

For a Misper the Helicopter always adds value even if it does not locate the person. Searching an open area with FLIR often confirms the person is not where they are thought to be and thus efforts are concentrated elsewher.......like the pub or houses where the Helicopter cannot add value.

For me the financial formula must be simple. Decide how much much flying you can afford. Use the helicopter every time there is the slightest chance it might add value to: save a life, prevent harm to the public or fight crime. Review your budget at the end of the year and increase, decrease accordingly.

The helicopters can never be replaced by drones completely. They should remain but they are, as they have always been, victims of their own success.

[MaxR]

Oh, and I'd missed: NPAS was formed to deliver more cost effective police aerial support.

That is exactly what they are doing.

:hmm:

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

I think the increasing installation of car immobilisers probably stopped off "Twoccing"

Alphanumeric, you would think so but sadly that was not the case. The clever little scrotes just bypassed the system with a extra vehicle wiring harness.

[Sloppy Link]

of course, err, there's loads of jobs around at the moment, hundreds.

In fact, last time I checked Flight Global, there was a steady stream of employers looking for pilots in Suffolk so don't really know what the problem is.:rolleyes:

[Sloppy Link]

In fact, last time I checked Flight Global, there was a steady stream of employers looking for pilots in Suffolk so don't really know what the problem is.:rolleyes:

Or B.........

[ShyTorque]

Some who consider pursuing stolen vehicles a waste of time and consider it a matter for insurance companies to deal with conveniently forget that the theft of a vehicle may be a lesser part of the crime committed.

[MaxR]

...or a precursor to the larger crime.

But, what would we know? We've not spent 7 minutes on Google and watched half of a Police Interceptors programme.

[ShyTorque]

I'd agree that drones would be useful for some of the relatively static and routine jobs, such as crowd surveillance. However, they aren't so suitable for dynamic policing because of the requirement for maintaining a line of sight from operator to drone. It should also be borne in mind that helicopters can actually carry police staff and can deploy them, drones obviously cannot.

[MaxR]

You could overcome both those problems by building a drone large enough that the operator could sit inside it, thereby always being in line of sight and then make it big enough to carry a couple of bobbies.

[Mike Flynn]

...or a precursor to the larger crime.

But, what would we know? We've not spent 7 minutes on Google and watched half of a Police Interceptors programme.

No need now Max.

Check out some of the base twitter feeds.

https://mobile.twitter.com/npas_boreham?lang=en

https://mobile.twitter.com/npas_filton?lang=en
That one includes a jet ski stuck on a sandbank. Surely that's a lifeboat task and nothing to
do with the police?

https://mobile.twitter.com/NPAS_CarrGate/status/848371340407132160?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7C twgr%5Etweet

The daily twitter feeds illustrate the highly expensive air support is mostly used for routine non events.

Vulnerable people (those with mental issues or dementia ) are best tracked with tagging.

Most mispers carry phones so an easy way to track?

Drunk drivers and stolen cars are petty crime and not worth the chase.

High speed police pursuits often lead to fatalities.

I don't dispute there is a role for police aviation.

However if the twitter feeds are anything to go by the taxpayer is not getting a good deal.



.

[AnglianAV8R]

Drunk drivers and stolen cars are petty crime and not worth the chase.





.

Petty ? Really ? Having been first on scene to the carnage that can result from drunken driving and from scum who literally 'drive like they stole it', because they did, I have to politely disagree with you.

Polite ? I surprise myself :mad:

[Rotate too late]

Yeah, I think with Jays last post, it's quite clear that whilst he may have a view, it's now simply a attempt at trolling. Crack on chap.
Reinforces my sheer disdain at the petty fawning of the police to twitter and these pathetic tv shows that do nothing but give away capability.

[Mike Flynn]

The point I am trying to make is traffic and air ops are the sexy part of UK policing at the detriment of boots on the ground. Hence twitter feeds and reality tv shows.

The figures I posted earlier of 10% burglary clear up rate in Bedfordshire is a disgrace.

[Nigerian Expat Outlaw]

Jay,

You're barking up entirely the wrong tree mate. Have you actually spoken to any police officers to corroborate the real value of Police Air Support ? I am ex-military and some of my former comrades went into the Police or decided to fly in support of them; without exception they thoroughly believe in the support the air wings provide.

NEO

[Mike Flynn]

Jay,

You're barking up entirely the wrong tree mate. Have you actually spoken to any police officers to corroborate the real value of Police Air Support ? I am ex-military and some of my former comrades went into the Police or decided to fly in support of them; without exception they thoroughly believe in the support the air wings provide.

NEO
I don't disagree with you but the huge sums of money spent on police air support can be better spent elsewhere via regional budgets.

The various regional ASU posts on twitter endorse my point.

99% of the time it is a waste of money.

Take a look at this from Benson.

https://mobile.twitter.com/NPAS_Benson?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5E author
NPAS Benson‏ @NPAS_Benson
2/4 0300hrs Watford helping @HertsPolice & @roadpoliceBCH search for a couple of unrelated sus vehicles that made off from officers #p6572



4


19h
NPAS Benson‏ @NPAS_Benson


Dogs Owls and reality tv...It appears that police ASU is now a branch of social services..


Ep 1/3

Wednesday 12 April
9.00pm-10.00pm
BBC ONE

NEW
Every two minutes someone in Britain goes missing. Multiple cameras follow the hunt for missing people, from the police tasked with finding them to loved ones left at home.
In Darlington, the police are increasingly concerned for the safety of 12 year-old Joshua, who has stormed off after a row with his mum and seemingly disappeared. Prone to escaping into a superhero-inspired world of fantasy, Joshua’s learning difficulties and trusting nature make him especially vulnerable, and as the minutes become hours, then yet more hours, and as darkness falls, fears mount.

It’s down to Inspector Sarah Honeyman and her team to try and find Joshua before it’s too late: She says: “The biggest fear is that somebody snatches that child. As a police officer you are very well aware that there are more people out there that would do that than maybe the general public think.

"Your child is the most precious thing in your life. As a parent myself, you'd be looking for somebody to say everything is going to be okay - but you can't give that guarantee, and it would be wrong to."

Not far away, in a rural town in County Durham, the alarm is raised when 13 year-old Katie disappears from home leaving behind a troubling suicide note. All available officers are immediately scrambled to the search and a search dog and handler from the local Mountain Rescue team is drafted in - but budget cuts mean police helicopters are more thinly stretched than ever, and with the local one tied up on a firearms job, there's an agonising wait to try and get vital air support.

[Rotate too late]

Jeeeeesus, are you that cold hearted! Seriously stop being THAT guy. If it's a bite you want, then have it, willingly. But don't spout that **** outside of your head. I will go to the ends of the earth to save that child, every day, all day. Whatever Nirvana you're thinking of that will solve all the worlds problems, bring it on, but until you put up some REAL solutions, let me/us get on with our jobs without listening to that utter toss. Please. No, pretty please.

[Mike Flynn]

More timewasting of public funds here.

NPAS Barton‏ @NPAS_Barton
22:40 @gmpolice @GMPHyde Pursuit in Mottram area of Manchester. Car abandoned prior to our attendance. Search conducted


2h
NPAS Barton‏ @NPAS_Barton
@LancsPolice @BurnleyPolice Suspect search around the field from Crow Wood to Fence after vehicle abandoned.

Here are some typical posts from St Athan.

[QUOTE]
16 Mar
NPAS St Athan‏ @NPAS_StAthan
1200 Tracker code received in Bristol. Area narrowed down and stolen vehicle located by ground units. #TheTeamWorks @ASPolice


5

15


16 Mar
NPAS St Athan‏ @NPAS_StAthan
1130 Searching south Bristol for a vulnerable missing male. @ASPolice ground units located him in built up area. #team999

5h
NPAS Barton‏ @NPAS_Barton
18:00 Report of suspicious activity Winwick. Locate persons in fields and direct @cheshirepolice to loaction. Males on land with permission
NPAS Barton‏ @NPAS_Barton
1/4 0450 @GMPBoltonNorth assisting with search for suspects/vehicle following recent burglary. Area search no trace

All the above just petty crime .

[FD2]

Jay - how can you just quote a few incidences where nothing really resulted from a callout and translate that into a condemnation of the usefulness of service in overall? Perhaps a little research into instances where people's lives have been saved might redress the great bias in your bean counter arguments.

There are certainly instances where drones might be useful, like policing football matches and I think ratepayers might be glad about savings there. We would all like to see more bobbies on the beat but I think most of the informed opinion here believes that helicopters should still be part of the mix. This is especially important in these days of increased threats from IS, al Qaeda and home grown jihadists and now would be very foolish time to remove a vital part of the police capabilities. We should also think of the deterrent effect the chance of being caught has had on some of the would-be burglars, car thieves and potential murderers.

I know you'll simply come back and say it doesn't really seem to have made a real difference, and quote some more tweets, but wait and see how pleasant life really becomes when the scrotes realise that their naughty old activities have suddenly become a lot easier to carry out. Perhaps you live in a nice area that doesn't need much serious policing, with those annoying, noisy old helicopters buzzing around, but there are many in the country who are reassured that someone is looking out for them.

[Mike Flynn]

I am not against the idea of police aviation but object to the way it is often deployed.

With 90% of UK burglaries never solved how the hell can 90 minutes of helicopter ops be justified to locate a stolen bike?

Mar 19
NPAS Redhill‏ @NPASRedhill
One of our tasks from a few nights ago. When we are overhead you may as well throw in the towel!
Clapham Com Police‏ @MPSClaphamCom

1hr 30mins pursuit of a stolen bike (aggravated robbery) through @LambethMPS @MPSCroydon @MPSWandsworth @MPSSutton & @SurreyPolice ������������


Or this

Wandsworth Police‏ @MPSWandsworth
ERT C strikes again! Reports of a robbery whereby victim's moped was stolen. Moped tracked & followed for nearly an hour by police (1/2)


Wandsworth Police‏ @MPSWandsworth

Resulting in 2 suspects arrested & moped back with it's owner. Great teamwork from @MPSRTPC @MPSSutton @MetTaskforce @NPASRedhill #Teamwork

Surely a stolen moped is an insurance company task? The cost of all the police time involved is completely disproportional to the value of the item and nature of the crime.

[Non-PC Plod]

I think you missed the part: "aggravated robbery". This is not just about a stolen bike. Its about a vicious bastard who has used violence to take that bike off his victim. If he gets away with it, what is he going to do tomorrow?
Maybe he will go to Jay Sata's house and do some trifling petty crime (which seems to be anything short of genocide)!

[John Eacott]

Jay,

I was very supportive of you and your concerns in the T C-T thread, and generally accepted much if not most of what you said.

Your inability to show proper research and understanding of police aviation in general, and in the UK before and after NPAS introduction makes me seriously reconsider your contributions to the T C-T thread and certainly to this thread.

Since when does a crime become such as to meet your criteria of 'cost effective'?
When the misper is your relative?
When the aggravated burg is on your property and has threatened you with a firearm? (He/she may still have the weapon while being pursued and willing to use it on following unarmed constables. The helicopter is ideal for this sort of pursuit.)
When the moped causes a crash that seriously injures one of your close family?

As previously stated, you really need to show a background of proper research: quoting random 'Tweets' does not even come close.

[Mike Flynn]

I think you are missing my point John.

The incidents I quoted above do not sit well alongside the various police reality programmes currently being screened on various UK tv channels.

Each episode involves car chases and petty crime.

I am questioning the disproportionate use of police budgets on unwarranted air support.

UK newspapers have carried this shocking story over the last few days.

Just 7% of stolen goods were recovered from the £2 billion of valuables taken from homes and businesses in two million break-ins between 2011 and 2016.

The figures were revealed in freedom of information data acquired by The Sun, which asked all 45 police forces in the UK for burglary statistics.

Thirty forces responded to the request, revealing that 206,009 of the 2,125,861 recorded burglaries were solved.

In London £928 million of goods was stolen - of which £35.4 million was recovered, equivalent to 3.7%.

The Metropolitan Police failed to solve 92% of cases over the same period.

Bedfordshire Police solved 6% of burglaries, and Warwickshire Police solved 7%.

Labour MP Yvette Cooper, chairwoman of the Home Affairs Select Committee, told The Sun: "We will be asking the police as part of our new inquiry into the future of policing why so many of these basic crimes are going unsolved, whether the figures are getting worse.

"They have to be able to do the basics - keeping the streets safe and catching criminals who invade people's homes.

The above story from the Express and Star newspaper.


In 2015, a Press Association analysis of Home Office data showed forces in England and Wales closed 80.2% of investigations into break-ins without identifying a suspect in 2014/15.

In the same year, Leicestershire Police revealed they had not fully investigated break-ins at odd-numbered houses as part of an experiment to look at ways of saving money.

The force said the three-month pilot was launched to see whether only responding to half of attempted burglaries had any impact on victim satisfaction rates.

For the pilot, attempted burglaries at even-numbered houses were fully investigated with forensic teams sent and fingerprints taken.

The National Police Chiefs' Council lead for acquisitive crime, Deputy Chief Constable Matt Jukes, said: "Police investigate all cases and also ensure that victims who may be particularly vulnerable, such as the isolated elderly, get the support they need from their police force.

"There have always been challenges for detection in burglary cases as, unlike many other crime reports where the suspect is at the scene or nearby, the suspect has often fled and criminals have become smarter about forensics.

"Police focus on targeting prolific offenders and organised crime networks as well as prevention measures by homeowners and businesses are working; burglary has fallen by a third since 2010 and is at its lowest level for thirty years.

"Simple measures can be the most effective in preventing burglary - such as ensuring all doors are locked and valuables are kept out of sight."


Read more at http://www.expressandstar.com/news/uk-news/2017/03/30/nine-out-of-10-burglaries-unsolved-and-7-of-stolen-goods-recovered/#RlRDDTkAktPzE1AQ.99

[John Eacott]

Yes, not only have I missed your point but your further example has only served to confuse me further.

How on earth do you associate a report on burglary recoveries with Police aviation having a 'disproportionate use of police budgets on unwarranted air support'?

When you're stuck in a deep hole, the recommended technique is first, to stop digging.

[Sky Sports]

Jobs reported on Twitter are the jobs that are allowed to be reported on Twitter under the 'social media' guidelines.

The vast majority of 'tasty' jobs stay under-wraps for very obvious legal reasons.

Anyone who believes Twitter to be the gospel according to Saint air support must be as thick as pig ****!

[Rotate too late]

Have a like

[FD2]

Make that two!

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

Jay Sata, I assume you have at least one close family member. Maybe a child even.

Try to imagine one day that loved one goes missing. maybe in a rural area on a cold night. The police then tell you the chances of finding them are much reduced as budget cuts have taken away the force Helicopter.

Also picture yourself in the Casualty department of your local hospital. You have just been told that you loved one has died after suffering catastrophic injuries in a hit and run accident. The police tell you they might have stood an even chance of catching the perpetrator had the force helicopter been still available.

The police put maximum effort in trying to intervene in petty crime because criminal behaviour means today's "Flasher" become tomorrow's Rapist and is next week carving out wombs and eating people's livers.

Police on the ground are important. But in this modern high speed high tech world providing that kind can of policing above other more sophisticated provisions is a nonsense. Modern criminals fear the Eye in the Sky. They know that once located, for the most part they can run but they cannot hide. Effective policing is about preventing crime. Deterrant. The Helicopter is a massive deterrent but unfortunately Jay it is unquantifiable and therefore neatly ignored by people like you and many bean counters. Until of course it is their loved one who is the victim..................beware what you wish for!

[homonculus]

Oh dear, another silly slanging match. I have no experience of the police and havent a clue which side is correct, but surely if a public service is spending this amount of money they should be properly audited and there should be an independent assessment of efficacy. How often does air support make the difference in achieving an arrest that otherwise would not have occurred? How often does air support find a missing person who would not have otherwise have been found in a reasonable time? What would be the saving if air support were only used for the really naughty people we apparently cant be told about? Does this data exist?

And how about a serious consideration of drones? No not toy quadricopters to take pictures of the royals but serious helicopter replacements like these which were so impressively presented recently at the RAeS?

https://medium.com/frontier-technology-livestreaming/uavaid-leading-the-uk-in-the-development-of-drone-technology-5a3c88abd96a

[ShyTorque]

Maybe drones could be sent to medical incidents to send pictures to a control room. A controller could assess if it's worth sending a ground ambulance to attend.

[Sky Sports]

And how about a serious consideration of drones? No not toy quadricopters to take pictures of the royals but serious helicopter replacements like these which were so impressively presented recently at the RAeS?

https://medium.com/frontier-technolo...y-5a3c88abd96a

I've read the article from top to bottom, but it didn't answer a few questions I have;

How powerful is the Nightsun?
Where does the bronze commander/firearms team/dog handler sit?
Where does the stretcher go?
Can the ground operator broadcast through the Skyshout?
How does it carry out water rescues?
Can it keep up with a pursuit?
How does it extract very poorly missing persons to the nearest ambulance?

etc. etc. etc. etc.

[Rotate too late]

Yeah, but it's cheap....

[homonculus]

SS. The answers are:

dont know
the other end of the uplink
my views on police being doctors are well known
yes
no
yes
fire and ambulance can do it

My point, being a little more serious, was that there is a need to consider the proper spending of taxpayers' money. Nobody is suggesting a drone could do all tasks but if they could do a significant proportion that would still save money, stop Jay winging because more helicopter missions would be worthwhile, and stop that pestering noise over my bedroom hour after hour!!

[Rotate too late]

H,
More than happy for you to give input, but, if the sole driver is money, then ground rotary now, save yourself a bundle. But I will expect that same approach to every aspect of public spending. I am struggling to see why police aviation should be e whipping boy. I will take your answers as tongue in cheek, as m sssuming that's how it was meant.
To reiterate, ground them now, if it's about money. And not the service.

[Mike Flynn]

Maybe drones could be sent to medical incidents to send pictures to a control room. A controller could assess if it's worth sending a ground ambulance to attend.

We have that service in the UK now. Paramedics.

111 for medical non urgent medical issue.
NHS 111 - NHS emergency and urgent care services - NHS Choices (http://www.nhs.uk/NHSEngland/AboutNHSservices/Emergencyandurgentcareservices/Pages/NHS-111.aspx)

The reason being lots of wasted time on non emergency calls in the past.

No drones but an unqualified call handler assesses if you are about to die.

Central London has a huge noise issue with constant police helicopter ops.

It is also probably the biggest user of ground based surveillance cameras.

I doubt a hovering helicopter could add little to the thousands of street cameras moniterd by a dedicated team 24/7.

If a hovercam is needed a drone will get lower and closer than a twin turbine with three expensive people on board.

[ShyTorque]

Central London has a huge noise issue with constant police helicopter ops.

Really? Is noise the real basis of your apparent total dislike of the service?

In any case, you missed the fact that I wasn't actually being serious. How do you expect a drone to get to an incident in a city when line of sight to the operator is a legal requirement?

[Mike Flynn]

I take it you have never worked in the capital?

Helicopter noise certainly is a big issue in central London and I wonder how often the airborne ops add anything to what the ground camera operators can see.

The UK has more cctv than just about any nation on the planet.

Facial recognition technology also allows very close up monitoring of criminals.

A turbine helicopter at 1500 ft can never achieve the high definition pictures that ground based cameras can.

Protest marches are a typical example of noisy NPAS deployment that achieves nothing.

My point is that a lot of the NPAS ops can be reduced by using the latest technology.

More expensive time wasting here.
NPAS London‏ @NPASLondon
#NPAS63 overhead for the boat race #boatrace2017 please remember that the tide comes in very fast and be careful of the wash

NPAS London‏ @NPASLondon
#boatrace2017 A few pics from #NPAS63
https://s29.postimg.org/h4bz99ejr/IMG_3401.jpg

Please explain how that sortie helped solve ground crimes?

Maybe is it is time for the new Met boss to reign in these joy rides?

[[email protected]]

A turbine helicopter at 1500 ft can never achieve the close up pictures that ground based cameras can. now you really are talking horse. You have never used things like MX15 clearly.

More expensive time wasting here. no, it is a high profile public event - possibly a terror target - and you have an immediate response with a helo in the overhead to direct resources with a perfect overall view.

[Thomas coupling]

Jay Sata - you talk bollocks my friend. MX15 went out with the arc, the stuff used now can read newspaper headlines from far higher than that milad :E

[Mike Flynn]

now you really are talking horse. You have never used things like MX15 clearly.

no, it is a high profile public event - possibly a terror target - and you have an immediate response with a helo in the overhead to direct resources with a perfect overall view.

So please explain how drones can not achieve the same result at a fraction of the cost?

People travelling on the Tube or public transport in major cities offer the same target to terrorists every day. Witness the St Petersburg metro attack yesterday.

Much as I like flying helicopters they have their limitations and the USP was the ability to hover.

Drones can now achieve better results for a fraction of the hourly cost.

NPAS closed the bases for cost reasons. They worked out a lot of very expensive hours were wasted on the trivial events we now read on the twitter feeds.

More here..

NPAS London‏ @NPASLondon

Been to Crawley, West Sussex, to help officers search for a victim @sussex_police. Area searched but no trace from us #NPAS63.
11:23 pm · 2 Apr 2017

@NPASLondon @sussex_police A victim of what? It appeared you were overhead Maidenbower

[Rotate too late]

Jay, why the need to continually push against an open door? That is one place where drones could have a place in the stack, but, I'm struggling to see this army of robots doing all the jobs at the same time. I hope you are as vociferous on the doctors forums, arrse and the fire brigades forums. I'm sure you'd be as welcome.

[Thomas coupling]

Well for starters drone operators must have line of site currently. What if the drone operator is told to go take a look behind a building which would result in the drone going out of view?
What is the endurance of this drone?
What if an SME needs to go take a look for him/herself in the helicopter?
What if the Silver Commander wants a deterrent in the skies above the threat? Will a drone presence be big enough?
What if the scene commander wants a shooter up there?
What if the commander wants close up photography from 1500' ?

What if the terrorist can jam your signal?

Sorry for droning on - but you did ask..........

[Mike Flynn]

Well for starters drone operators must have line of site currently. What if the drone operator is told to go take a look behind a building which would result in the drone going out of view?
What is the endurance of this drone?
What if an SME needs to go take a look for him/herself in the helicopter?
What if the Silver Commander wants a deterrent in the skies above the threat? Will a drone presence be big enough?
What if the scene commander wants a shooter up there?
What if the commander wants close up photography from 1500' ?

What if the terrorist can jam your signal?

Sorry for droning on - but you did ask..........

I suggest you do a bit of research TC..drone operators fly the things using the onboard camera. They can fly into the most amazing places and film shots that just a few years ago were impossible with helicopters.

This technology takes the expense away from most missing persons ops.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=-jRc4FItCnY

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=E6lEY0MilnA

Take a look at this showreel.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=rdEELOCw4YM

[John Eacott]

Jay, I'll remind you again to do some basic research before you embarrass yourself further.

It doesn't matter that drones can take remarkable shots, etc, when (as you have been reminded) they cannot operate out of line of sight of the operator. That's the law.

This is the third or fourth thread about NPAS, but you may have failed to research the others. Please remind us about what savings have been achieved (financially will do) by NPAS and your much vaunted closing of bases?

[Pan Euro]

Jay Sata, I have sat quietly letting others spar with you but now I feel I have to join in. You seem totally determined to trash Police air support and I am not convinced that you speak with experience of the role. Yes it costs a lot of money to keep a police aviation unit going but the benefits are not always easily measured. It is not always about what you find but what you don't find. A negative search of an area for a vulnerable missing person can be as much use as a positive one. The area is cleared so we can move on to the next area. It is also cleared much quicker than by ground based officers, assuming you could find enough to do it properly. The Met do not just fly over the boat race for a jolly, we live in difficult times and bad men want to do bad things to nice people the presence of a helicopter can deter it or at least make sure a response is swift. We chase after car thief's and drunk drivers to stop innocent people suffering and to manage difficult and dangerous tasks as safely as possible. If we did it your way then lets all pack up go home barricade ourselves in because we will return to worse times. You are entitled to your views but please think a little wider not just about money. I hope you never have a relative with dementia that wanders off, or a child hit by a drunk driver that was not perused by the Police. If you did you might just change your views and speak some sense.

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

Pan Euro I think we are wasting our breath with this guy. He could probably get a civil service job closing hospitals, schools and fire stations too.

The pilots and crews who operate Police Aviation know well the advantages and limitations of the helicopter. Everyone else just has an opinion. Those opinions change the moment they themselves need police assistance in a crisis where an ASU could make a significant difference.

Most likely Jay had his ring piece searched by the boys in blue and didn't really enjoy it. Apologies for the colloquialism but spent some time at the NEASU where Ring Pieces are often searched by the "Bizzies" anyone out there remember the good old days at NEASU with PASF. Evening entertainment over Pennywell. Great days and the Xmas parties were Ace! Chasing Scrotes through the night. CRM developing the hard way when the pilots wants to left and the Bobby wants to go right! Great bunch of lads and lasses and a huge privelidge to have been a small part of it.

[MaxR]

So please explain how drones can not achieve the same result at a fraction of the cost?

I had grown bored with your inane rants but, as you ask the question, I thought I might give you some clues.

The kind of cameras used on helicopters are what we call very, very big. The kind of drones that the police might deploy are what we call very, very small. Getting it now?

Also, please look up the legal requirements for line of sight before embarrassing yourself further.

You are quite correct, not all of the jobs a police helicopter deploys on warrant their attendance but they often have to make a quick decision based on very limited information and don't have the benefit of hindsight. Sometimes they'll get it wrong, sometimes they'll make decisions that you wouldn't have made but sometimes they'll save a life and how often do you do that?

To answer the other poster who asked about if helicopters are responsible for arrests or for saving lives that would not have happened otherwise, well, I don't know current figures but 10 years ago the numbers nationally were in the hundreds and the thousands, respectively per annum.

[homonculus]

As 'the other poster' I had just watched from the sidelines as the slanging match continued. In fact I believe the military do operate the odd drone out of sight of the operator, and those my age will remember that the police were given exemptions under their AOCs to do things we mere mortals cant. Perhaps police drones too might operate under different rules.

But leave the drones to one side. The question I posed was simple - where is the independent audit? Yes I hear the cabs have 'shooters' and dogs but a layman might assume these are loaded for specific tasks (which we are told we citizens have no right to know about) so I am happy for these to continue. I am merely asking how often such secret or dangerous missions occur as opposed to the ones Jay Sata is trotting out. It isnt good enough to say it is classified or it is 'thousands' we need some hard data. I cant treat my patients with taxpayers money without hard evidence (and increasingly I cant treat my patients with hard data). I am merely asking for police aviation to live up to the same standards

[[email protected]]

So, according to that logic, taxypayer's money shouldn't be spent on SAR unless they rescue enough people every year????

If you decide you need an aviation capability, it take planning and investment - if it doesn't get used every day for worst case scenarios, you can't just get rid of it and then stand it up at short notice when something bad happens.

[Rotate too late]

In fact, I'm off to my local fire station right now to see how many fires they've been to, if they haven't, I want my money back.
Then down to A&E to see how busy they are. If there are any doctors milling about I want to know why they're not mopping the floor.

[ShyTorque]

Duncan Sandys lives again!

[homonculus]

Come on guys, read my posts and calm down. The common thread between PAS, SAR, fire and the NHS is they are paid by the taxpayer. I have never suggested we close down any of them Crab. What I am saying is that there should be independent audit to ensure that taxpayers money - and we are all taxpayers - is spent wisely.

Of course we need SAR but go to the Ireland thread and you will see discussion about medical tasking. We need PAS but the question is really is it being overused?

In fact I am probably on your side more than Jay Sata's, as my industry - the NHS - is ignoring independant audit and research. The Government does its own 'audit', and sets up its own lapdogs such as NICE who cut costs and restrict treatment that should be allowed. The risk is that PAS may, or perhaps is, going down the same road. An independant audit might reduce PAS flights or might not, but it would demonstrate the need for the missions you keep listing and help ensure the funding is ringfenced. I am just asking the question. If you just produce knee jerk responses on this thread it matters not a jot. If you do it for real then dont be surprised if politicians and been counters go for greater cuts.

[Rotate too late]

Audit equals numbers equals stats.
So how do you quantify negative searches, or reassurance patrols, or deterrent.
How about a little bit of TRUST. We are a minuscule organisation compared to that of the NHS. My rather poor attempt at sarcasm was to highlight that it's an utter waste of time to try.
Once again, drones have their place, but do not wonder on to a forum espousing "knowledge" and not expect to be asked to show your working.

[MaxR]

Homonculus

I'm absolutely in agreement with you that there should be an independent audit into what NPAS is actually achieving.

I can't offer you figures because I haven't been involved in police aviation for some years. I merely wanted to assure you that they save lives and are responsible for arrests at a higher rate than you may have imagined. Or, at least, they were; I'm not in a position to know if they still are.

[homonculus]

Thanks MaxR

Rotate too late: there are a number of organisations who offer independant audit of all sorts of industries. In addition university departments produce independant research on a daily basis of similar issues. No I am not willing to just trust you. Size is irrelevant. You are spending money in competition to other publicly funded bodies and like them must be open to audit. Thalidomide occurred due to a belief in trust rather than audit.....

I am not pretending to have any knowledge at all of PAS save my interaction via air ambulance work. I merely asked about drones based on a lecture at the RAeS. I have made my point and this thread is becoming repetitive so I will withdraw.

[Mike Flynn]

SS. The answers are:

dont know
the other end of the uplink
my views on police being doctors are well known
yes
no
yes
fire and ambulance can do it

My point, being a little more serious, was that there is a need to consider the proper spending of taxpayers' money. Nobody is suggesting a drone could do all tasks but if they could do a significant proportion that would still save money, stop Jay winging because more helicopter missions would be worthwhile, and stop that pestering noise over my bedroom hour after hour!!
Hospital A and E is another area where public money is wasted.

Over 75% are actually non emergencies and at weekends the result of over indulgunce in drink.

For real serious police work NPAS are a vital tool.

However they appear from their twitter posts to be at the trivial but very expensive end of crime fighting.

Some more tweets here from NPAS.
https://mobile.twitter.com/npaslondon?lang=en

NPAS London‏ @NPASLondon
#NPAS62 called to Hungerford Bridge to male wanting to jump in the river. Male located and talked local officers to him & led of bridge.

So how was a helicopter crew going to help that case? Locals saw him,reported it and ground officers talked him down.

Here is a typical London police helicopter operation.

NPAS London‏ @NPASLondon
Over Central London for a number of demonstrations. We are providing downlink imagery. Are we being watched?�� [QUOTE]
https://s24.postimg.org/tfumge7ed/IMG_3404.jpg

This was a London demonstration by the right wing English Defence League. I take it that was the most exciting picture the NPAS crew obtained. On a par with a normal day in Trafalgar Square.

The truth is it was.

[QUOTE]At least 14 people have been arrested after rival groups clashed during protests in central London, the Metropolitan police have said.

Fewer than 300 members of the far-right groups Britain First and the English Defence League turned up for their “march against terrorism”, a turnout castigated by opponents as a lame attempt to whip up Islamophobia in the wake of the Westminster attack.source https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/01/far-right-demonstration-falls-flat-as-only-300-turn-up-to-london-march
The route is listed below but all covered by hundreds of ground based CCTV monitored by the Metropolitan Police.
https://s30.postimg.org/goqgt28gx/IMG_3405.jpg

The helicopter used for the above demonstration was superfluous to the CCTV and officers on the ground unless the protest march got out of hand? A couple of
freelance drone operators would have saved thousands of pounds of taxpayers money.

Why not wait to launch the helicopter if it was needed?

However the Met Police like to pull out all the toys in the box for high profile events while ignoring drug dealing street criminals,organised knife gangs and over 94% of burglaries they fail to solve.

If police aviation really did solve more than petty crime then the various Police Camera Action tv shows producers would have focussed on that. The reality is most NPAS operations are routine,boring and very expensive.

[handysnaks]

homunculus, I don't think you need to withdraw, as a taxpayer you have every right to expect the police to use their funds wisely.

As a number of previous posters have pointed out, the trouble is that whether air support is cost effective, (however it is delivered, helicopter, fixed wing, hover bike or 'drone') is rather subjective. One thing you can be sure of though is that police air support is subject to more financial scrutiny now, than it ever was before.
I'm sure that once all the interested parties (PCC's CC's and the Home Office to name but a few), agree on what (if anything) they would like air support to deliver, then they can work out the targets/standards/metrics against which a practical audit could be carried out. Until that is done, it's a bit like trying to determine whether the nuclear deterrent is cost effective!

Some of the points made by you and Jay (on his very successful fishing trip), are not just issues for police air support but issues for the police in general. I suspect most members of the general public have very little idea how much time the police devote to searching for vulnerable missing people.

The 'discussions' about whether searching for or pursuing, stolen cars is a sensible use of police resources is aways both interesting and entertaining. There are very few forces out there that wouldn't rather drop the whole dangerous game but for the fact that an awful lot of crime involves cars, if only as a mode of transport to and from the scene of the offence! Some considerations regarding crime and vehicles are listed below.

When a police officer becomes aware of a vehicle of interest it may be because the number plate of the car has markers on to suggest all manner of reasons that the car and driver should be stopped (being stolen is only one of them). It may be that a member of the public has reported a similar car to the police and all police officers on duty are notified to be on the lookout for such a car over the modern equivalent of the wireless radio.

Other than that, a police officer may notice a car because of the manner of driving. This generally takes three forms:-

1. The driver is obeying the street rule 'drive it like you stole it'. This often takes the form of driving in a highly dangerous manner putting other drivers, cyclists, pedestrians etc at great risk.

2. The driver is driving in a highly suspicious manner (this is frequently determined using the highly successful but now much discredited 'coppers intuition or hunch'). When members of the public driving in this way are requested to stop by the police, then, should they adopt the driving manner described in point 1 above, that is normally regarded as corroboration that the police officers 'hunch' was correct.

3. The driver and/or his (or her) passengers are recognised as being miscreants or ne'er-do-wells or known criminals or are wearing stripey pullovers and are observed carrying bags with the word 'swag' written on them. (in my part of the country an oversized flat cap would also be cause for suspicion).

It always strikes me as amusing that a number of members of the public would fully expect the police to attempt to apprehend a person who has just carried out a raid on say, a jewellers shop and run off with 30 grands worth of Ratners finest bling, yet feel that devoting the same effort to stop someone who purloins 30 grands worth of fine Bavarian engineering is wrong!

For Jay in particular, if he has such strong views (and wind up or not, his views are perfectly valid), about the sort of tasks he believes the police should prioritise, he really ought to consider putting himself up for office when the next set of Police and Crime Commissioner elections take place. Then he could determine whether his views strike a chord with the huge numbers of voters that take part in those elections (unless he lives in London of course, where he will have to try for the Mayors job)!

[Mike Flynn]

Many thanks for that considered reply Handysnaks.

My input here is not a fishing trip. The EDL April 1st debacle above is a fine example of how police
money was wasted on a non event. The tabloids could have had a great time on that particular expensive taxpayer funded episode but they missed it.

Why was a helicopter called in to hover over an event when there were only a few hundred protesters?

What did the operation cost?

At what level was it sanctioned?

Is the noise profile of Met helicopter ops monitered?

Perhaps questions best put to Cressida Dick.

My main question is why are mispers and car crime prioritised?

Report a burglary with thousands of pounds worth of stuff stolen from a shed and you get a crime number. Imagine having a couple of expensive motorbikes plus perhaps a ride on mower and a caravan taken from the drive! I can guarantee that will not get a NPAS launch or appearance on tv.

Phone up and suggest your uncle is missing and he drinks a lot,has suicidal episodes plus you have not heard from him for three days and the police control room goes in to overdrive to launch the helicopter.

He usually turns up the next day with a hangover at a friends house.

Surely the best helicopter to look for "vulnerable" persons is the Air Ambulance?

Drones to replace the constant throb of Met launched air support and helicopters doing the serious genuine criminal stuff out in the countryside?

[handysnaks]

Jay, it may not be an intentional fishing trip, but it is a successful inadvertant one (and by my own informal rules, as I am responding, then you have another bite to add to the list, well done). Mispers are prioritised if there is perceived to be a threat to their (the missing persons), life. The first duty of the police officer is 'to save life'. I don't believe that 'car crime' is prioritised, but to use your own example, when some one 'does your garden shed over', they are likely to put the booty in a vehicle! At that point a car becomes involved, so would you classify that as car crime?
Regarding whether or not a helicopter would respond to a break in to a garden shed, all I can say (from my limited experience), is that if called by the force whilst the job is 'live', yes, there is a very good chance a helicopter would respond (depending of course on a number of variables). However, if you arrive home after work, to find that your shed was broken into some time in the previous eight hours, and the offenders are long gone, then I'm pretty sure that unless the offenders made off with a precious, life sized day-glo dinosaur, no.

[ShyTorque]

JS, more than once you have written things that seem to indicate that you prioritise the value of property over the value of human life. Hence the rebuttals.

[Non-PC Plod]

"Surely the best helicopter to look for "vulnerable" persons is the Air Ambulance?"

DUH........Exactly how many Air ambulances are fitted with cameras?

If you did fit them with cameras, what would you remove to maintain payload, ...the oxygen bottles? Maybe the paramedic?

Exactly how many air ambulances are publicly-owned, and therefore potentially taskable?

What will the air ambulance do when it finds someone who might or might not be the missing person walking on a remote beach at 2 am?
Maybe we need to fit the air ambulance with police radios as well as a camera?
Come to think of it, we could paint the air ambulance blue & yellow, and write "police" on the side whilst we are at it.

[ShyTorque]

Strangely enough, before there were air ambulances, police helicopters were often used for that purpose.

[[email protected]]

Jay - perhaps you haven't noticed but the security level in UK is SEVERE - that means a terrorist attack could occur at any time. You don't have to be a rocket scientist to realise that the Capital is a prime target - hence the police helicopter will be used for pretty much any event as both a deterrent and and immediate reaction platform for observation/communications.

You seem to be happy with having a police presence in London but just don't like the noise (frankly it is insignificant compared to the traffic noise) - perhaps you should understand it is about keeping you and yours safe and that it is actually a very good way to spend taxpayer's money.

[MaxR]

Jay - I have come to the conclusion that you are either unable or unwilling to understand and, therefore, I shall leave the field of play and allow you to carry on typing drivel.

Please feel free to PM me with your name and address and those of your relatives and I will pass them on to the appropriate forces so that if ever you are the victim of crime or a vulnerable family member goes missing they will know that you object to the use of the helicopter and do not wish it to be deployed.

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

Jay, it's almost not worth bothering to post replies to you because you come across in this thread as a bitter mental Pygmy (no offence intended to pygmies).

However, the reason why the helicopter is airborne DURING a targeted event is for DETERRANT. now I know you will not accept this point because it's juxtaposition to your case. You do not understand INTELLIGENCE either. And I mean the "Gathering, assessing and processing of information"

Handysnacks - loved the Dayglo dinasoar analogy. And with I believe over 20 years flying with the Boys in Blue you are more...than little experienced.

Jay. Just say one nice thing about the Police Helicopter! For balance so you stop sounding "Unbalanced"

[Mike Flynn]

I understand this thread is mostly about police aircrew ,both pilots and observers, with a vested interest in keeping their jobs.

What I find hard to take on board is the fact that air ambulances are funded from charity donations. These helicopters save lives every day.

Missing person operations are really closer to air ambulance work than the police.However the police air ops justify a substantial chunk of police budgets and taxpayers money via their mispers.

If missing persons,stolen cars and petty crime were removed from police air operations the numbers would suggest more budget cuts.

Perhaps the way forward is a combined police and air ambulance with the latter having priority.

On a final note the suggestion that a security high alert re terrorists somehow justifies huge sums spent on the helicopter operations over London every day is bunkum.

The incident in Westminster a few weeks ago and todays Sweden attacks demonstrate that
the money needs to be spent on the ground and not in the air.

In closing let me direct you to this BBC story that really sums up my point.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/article/33549452/police-twitter-accounts-that-keep-getting-into-trouble

I like this paragraph.

It normally tweets pictures of the London skyline or enjoys a bit of banter with other police forces but one official police account is in trouble for posting an aerial picture of Michael McIntyre.
The image was taken from the sky by a police helicopter and posted by the National Police Air Support Unit's Twitter account - @NPASLondon.
It's claimed the comedian's privacy was invaded as he didn't know it was going to be published.
The post showing the comedian has since been deleted.
https://s3.postimg.org/qpwvstbsz/IMG_3408.jpg

[ShyTorque]

JS, you seem to be stuck on transmit.

I too was supportive of your views on the TCT thread, but not here; you are falling wide of the mark because of what appears to be a personal bias.

By your measure, we should also get rid of our military in peacetime and our air ambulances on a quiet day.

P.S. I'm not trying to save my job. I fly corporate because the police can't, or won't pay decent salary for the quality of the people they need.

[Mike Flynn]

I think you and others are missing my point.

The problems with NPAS and deployment has nothing to do with the crews.

The EDL protest did not warrant getting a helicopter airborne for 300 protesters.

If we have reached a point in society that the police have to have an expensive piece of kit
constantly flying over central London every day then it is time for me to leave.

Every single square metre of central London has cctv surveillance.

I do not have a personal bias but just wonder if some of the wasted high tech helicopter budget would be better deployed at a basic street level?

What was the justification in filming Michael McIntyre?
Here is an example of street crime where police really need to focus on the major issues.
https://s18.postimg.org/r812juu49/IMG_3410.jpg
A disabled gran was brutally beaten with a baseball and threatened by a knife-wielding thug in a terrifying ordeal over her son's £100 cannabis debt.

Gran-of-three Barbara Dransfield was put on a life support machine and left in a coma for two weeks after she was mercilessly beaten.


She was sitting in her wheelchair at her home in Ashton-under-Lyne when a masked gang raided her home, report the Manchester Evening News.

Minshull Street Crown Court was told how she was savagely beaten after her son, Daniel, ran up a £100 cannabis debt.



A bit of low cost policing might be better than helicopters chasing car theft and petty crime in Manchester.

[Non-PC Plod]

"Perhaps the way forward is a combined police and air ambulance with the latter having priority."
Nope - thats the way back - Pretty sure that is what I was doing in 2003!

[handysnaks]

Jay, I can accept the fact that you don't want there to be as many/ any, police helicopters.

The air ambulances are funded by charity (in England and Wales),because people are willing to put their hand in their pockets to do so. You seem very keen on the state running a tight ship and not wasting money, so surely this method of fundng is agreeable to you?

You may (or may not), be aware that air ambulance and HEMs work is regarded under ICAO rules, as a commercial operation. So police aviation beng a state run operation is not permitted to get too involved in it, we can carry out life saving CASEVAC flights, but that is about it.

With regard to the involvement of air ambulance aircraft in searching for missing persons, I think the limitations of air ambulances for that sort of work have been more than adequately explained, I would just add that the charitable organisations that run air ambulance operations very successfully are alway open to new ideas. I'm sure yours would be well received.

However, your point about other agencies assisting in searching for 'mispers' is actually a very good one. For example I have long thought that it might be a suitable area for the Fire Service to get involved in, i see more and more of their vehicles displaying a 'Fire and Recue' logo so it might be right up their street!

For what it's worth, quite a few years ago the police authority for which I worked, did give consideration to whether our air operations unit should evolve into an emergency services unit, with an ability to provide cover to all three of the inland emergency services, but the fact that we could not really participate in air ambulance work put paid to the idea before it was worth committing anything to paper!

I would just finish with a request. You have stated that you are not against police aviation, just the number of aircraft and some of the work we do. I would be interested to know what role you think police aviation should carry out (bearing in mind the point about us not competing in the air ambulance/HEMS market)?

[Mike Flynn]

Thanks for your considered reply Handysnacks.

My thoughts are that a joined up and coordinated service is the way forward.

I am not anti police ops just anti waste of money.

I thought the original police model where they leased time on basic 206's 20 years ago was cost effective.

The trouble is once you start to take operations in house the costs go through the roof.

Twin turbine helicopters plus support are very expensive.

How would you allocate the money.

[handysnaks]

Well, 20 years ago (in the UK at least), there were no Police 206,'s
Assuming that we have some helicopters, then they need to be twin engined (for night operations).
I take it you are not really clear on what you would like a Jay run Police air operation to do?

[Mike Flynn]

So are you saying there were no police 206's 20 years ago?

Julian Verity was running a B206 out of Cardiff Wales Airport on a South Wales Police contract back in the late 1980's

In those days the SWP control room was in Bridgend.

[handysnaks]

Jay, I hate to break it to you, but the late 80's was a fair bit more than 20 years ago!
(I appreciate it doesn't seem like it, it doesn't to me either)!
No, whilst the jet box and the schweizer (and the optica), had their place during the early years of air support, I'm afraid they were consigned to the dustbin of history well over 20 year ago!
(By the way, Strathclyde operated a 206 as well).

Anyway, as pleasant as this discourse is, it's time I wasn't here!

[Sloppy Link]

JS, you seem to be stuck on transmit.

I too was supportive of your views on the TCT thread, but not here; you are falling wide of the mark because of what appears to be a personal bias.

By your measure, we should also get rid of our military in peacetime and our air ambulances on a quiet day.

P.S. I'm not trying to save my job. I fly corporate because the police can't, or won't pay decent salary for the quality of the people they need.
Thank you Shy Torque, patronage and patronisation all in the same post, I feel soooo loved.

[Colonal Mustard]

Jay Sata sounds like he knows another prune on here by the name of Romeo Papa...

RP posted some similar phishing lines on another thread...



My experience dates back to the days when freelance contract air support was bought in from the likes of Veritair back in the 1980's.

One pilot,Julian Verity,in a Jetranger plus a copper with a map alongside covering half of Wales.

Only used when there was a proper requirement and sanctioned from above.

Now the air support as they are called lift for stupid events like the two guys delaying a train by a few minutes

[[email protected]]

So - a single engine helo - no use apart from on the helilanes and not at all at night in London. Oh, and not IFR capable - very useful for those poor weather jobs.....But it's OK , it's cheap:ugh:

[PANews]

Wow this thread suddenly came awake!

A lot of argument about nothing it seems.

99% of policing is about nothing much so to snipe at the air support branch for coming out to play occasionally seems way over the top.

The only servicable Air support in London was off doing training for the anti-terror role when Westminster Bridge happened. The incident took 80 or so seconds to play through and air support was nowhere to be seen and had to be brought in from Essex, Surrey and Oxfordshire. I think the first air asset on scene was the SKY tv helicopter and so the first downlink images into the police HQ were probably from that. Indeed the ground based firearms branch was also nowhere to be seen when it all went off. In this instance they were close enough in the event to take out the instigator quite quickly. Lucky it was Westminster!

But this all goes back to the generalities of policing. Policing, like the army and a whole lot of services, is 99% of nothing so that means that most of the time it provides 'bad' value. Bad value driving around in cars, on bicycles [2 by 2], and helicopter sitting around waiting for the passing terror suspect, bank robber, missing person etc etc that might, like Westminster, play out in less than two minutes.....

How can you audit a product like that?

Buying, staffing and fueling 100 cars that everyone is quite happy are driving around in circles possibly costs way more that a few helicopter sorties and [even if a drone could go beyond line of sight] has anyone priced the cost of support for such a device that is going to be flying round aimlessly for 99% of the time?

To support the availability of one tiny 'line of sight' quad rotor 24/7 will take a minimum of 3 officers and one vehicle per day and you may have to wait 2-3 hours for it to arrive along crowded roads. Move up the market to a real surveillance asset [currently illegal] will involve mobile control rooms extra staff etc etc and probably twin engines.....

[SilsoeSid]

Jay,

It has been quite amusing reading your feckramblings over the past week or so, I particularly enjoyed your post, #85

More expensive time wasting here.
Quote:
NPAS London‏ @NPASLondon
#NPAS63 overhead for the boat race #boatrace2017 please remember that the tide comes in very fast and be careful of the wash
NPAS London‏ @NPASLondon
#boatrace2017 A few pics from #NPAS63
https://s29.postimg.org/h4bz99ejr/IMG_3401.jpg

Please explain how that sortie helped solve ground crimes?

Maybe is it is time for the new Met boss to reign in these joy rides?



I find it interesting that despite there being c.300,000 people attending the Boat Races over their 4.2 mile course, that's over 71,000 people per mile, the third most highly attended sporting event worldwide, with all roads remaining open, ten days after the Westminster Bridge attack, with the national security level at 'Severe' ... on an incoming tide; you class a police helicopter over London as being "time wasting".


references:
World's Largest Sporting Crowds (http://www.topendsports.com/world/lists/crowd-largest.htm)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sports_attendance_figures

[MightyGem]

By the way, Strathclyde operated a 206 as well
Until it had an argument with a block of flats.:ooh:

[ShyTorque]

Thank you Shy Torque, patronage and patronisation all in the same post, I feel soooo loved.

Sloppy, sorry if that offends you. It's a long story but been there, done the job. I loved it but couldn't live on the well below par salary paid at the time and refused to take a significant pay cut and lose leave when a new contractor took over. So I had to move on to a better paid, but far less satisfying role.

[Mike Flynn]

Jay,
I find it interesting that despite there being c.300,000 people attending the Boat Races over their 4.2 mile course, that's over 71,000 people per mile, the third most highly attended sporting event worldwide, with all roads remaining open, ten days after the Westminster Bridge attack, with the national security level at 'Severe' ... on an incoming tide; you class a police helicopter over London as being "timewasting

In a word Silsoe....Noise.

Did the police helicopter prevent any crime test did not occur 30 years ago?

Over London,over football matches and over a benign sporting event such as the boat race.

Very expensive noise as well.

The boat race existed long before the Met or NPAS had helicopters.

I am sure it will be there when the helicopters have gone.

Balloon surveilance perhaps.

I love helicopters and waste stupid amounts of my money flying them.

However I object to a lot of time wasting sorties where social services and local PCSO teams should be the first line of response.

My only critics are those with a vested interest as crews on the NPAS service.

Like the train crews on Southern they cannot accept change.

The scaling back of NPAS has proved too much money has been wasted in the past on the wrong sort of policing.

[[email protected]]

Helicopter noise seems to be your big issue Jay, compared to the traffic noise it is insignificant but you can't hear that because it is constantly there and your brain accepts it as the norm.

Perhaps NPAS could waste some more time and money by hovering over your house 24/7 - after a few days you just wouldn't notice it:E

BTW, 30 years ago we only had the IRA to deal with and life was much simpler.

[SilsoeSid]

Does anyone else remember 'Ye Olde Pilot'.
:hmm::suspect:

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

In a word Silsoe....Noise.

Did the police helicopter prevent any crime test did not occur 30 years ago?

Over London,over football matches and over a benign sporting event such as the boat race.

Very expensive noise as well.

The boat race existed long before the Met or NPAS had helicopters.

I am sure it will be there when the helicopters have gone.

Balloon surveilance perhaps.

I love helicopters and waste stupid amounts of my money flying them.

However I object to a lot of time wasting sorties where social services and local PCSO teams should be the first line of response.

My only critics are those with a vested interest as crews on the NPAS service.

Like the train crews on Southern they cannot accept change.

The scaling back of NPAS has proved too much money has been wasted in the past on the wrong sort of policing.

Jay Sata, you are without doubt the most significant idiot we have ever had on this forum.

Yes the Boat race existed long before Helicopters came along but also before Mobile Phones, International Terrorism, Muslim Extremist, Lone Wolf attacks, Sophisticated IEDs, and a whole host of other technologies that been exploited by nefarious persons to do harm to the general public.

NOISE - OF COURSE - the whole point of policing is to prevent crime taking place. Not to catch criminals. That is the necessary by product of policing because they cannot close every opportunity available to criminals. There is little point having a quite "Stealth" helicopter. That's the same as putting speed cameras in secret places instead of showing them loud and clear to SLOW PEOPLE DOWN and prevent speeding.

If the noise upsets you GOOD. At least you know the boys in Blue are above you just as the potential criminal/Terrorist does.

Your arguments against police aviation are about money and noise. Thats all. Well I am a tax payer and I like and want the helicopter there to offset any potential act of nastiness that may occur.

Picking on the pilots who fly these machines and trying to make them take responsibility for the money that is spent is puerile and inappropriate.

I want to know what you do for a living? What possible contribution do you make to society. What difference have you EVER made to a members of the publics lives like the Police crews do every single day.

At the risk of being modded, which I would freely accept, you are the most stupid person I have ever come across on Pprune. Your postings on this and other threads makes you an embarrassment to the Rotor heads community.

Take your lily livered, jelly fish tales of misguided social conscience off our website and ply your silly ideas on someone else.

DB Out.

PS. You may well be right that sufficient bean counting dumbos tot up the bills, listen to dingbats like you and dismantle the whole freeekin NPAS in favour of drones. However, as an ex police pilot and EMS Pilot with over 5,000 missions I have a logbook full of tasks where we saved lives, found vulnerable mispers, caught very dangerous criminals and made a positive contribution to the communities that we served. The system works and works very well! You on the other hand have no experience of this. Have not seen the invaluable works the Plod and Crews do and have never saved a single life. The money as a police pilot quite frankly is a an appalling shame. However the pilots who do it, do so because they have a sense of serving. Knowing the work is justifiable and take immense satisfaction from applying their professional skills positively instead of you who appears to "flown a little bit of private flying". How can you possibly rationalise the noise and costs of your "Recreational" flying against the professional positive contribution the NPAS Boys and Girls make every single day? Oh I forgot, because you have no idea.....do you.

[Frying Pan]

As with the Missing Squirrel thread...

Well done Jay Sata. Complete troll or complete...

Your rantings are too much, however it has made me laugh. This site has enough nonsense and I'm surprised you haven't put your precious tuppence worth into the Missing S-92 thread....but I'm sure there's time.

Good luck. You'll need it with your 'experience'. Cheers SP.

[ShyTorque]

Jay has extremely sensitive hearing. He's complaining about the noise over London but his location is S.E. Asia.

[newfieboy]

Well said DB,
The guy is getting a tad annoying to say the least. I'm flying support on one of the biggest gold mines in the World right now and we have a guy complaining of the helicopter noise. Out of 1000 odd workers, just one. He wants operations to cease from 0930-1630hrs. Go figure, reckons the helicopters are a waste of money and the noise disturbing his rest.
Not you is it Jay Sata. Funny but my machine seems to be blade slapping a little more than usual slinging in heavy loads.
Must speak to my engineer, not.......:ugh:

[MaxR]

Jay Sata, you are without doubt the most significant idiot we have ever had on this forum.

DB - I have to take issue with you on that statement. While he may well be an idiot, significant he is not. I think it may be an awareness of this fact that makes him stand on the sidelines and shout at those who do something of significance with their lives.

Other than that tiny matter of semantics, I agree with every word.

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

DB - I have to take issue with you on that statement. While he may well be an idiot, significant he is not. I think it may be an awareness of this fact that makes him stand on the sidelines and shout at those who do something of significance with their lives.

Other than that tiny matter of semantics, I agree with every word.

Maxr, I bow to your correction. I think you probably clobbered the nail right on the head.

[MightyGem]

Shall we get back on topic, ie: the decline and fall of NPAS.

So, I sent the figures that I posted back at #40, here:
http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/586220-npas-thread-removed-2.html#post9628582
to all the English/Welsh PCCs. I only received a half dozen replies, most of which just acknowledged the “group” reply from the Chair of the NPAS National Board, or just quoted the party line.

One from a Midlands Force was more forthcoming. They aren’t particularly happy with what they are getting, and sent me a copy of one of their 6 monthly reports, on NPAS support, that the Force sends to the PCC.

Some of their figures are interesting/depressing. In the year to date(Report dated 28th November. Not sure if the year is from January or April)as a percentage of total calls, they had an attendance rate of 27.4% (38% 2014/15), a decline rate of 17.4% (11.6% 2014/15) and a cancellation rate of 44.8% (40.8% 2014/15). The cancellation rate represents where we have requested NPAS but subsequently cancelled them, often due to the incident being resolved or a change in circumstances.

Only 27 out of 100 times did an aircraft turn up.

Their average number of monthly requests for January to September 2016 was 53, a 61% reduction compared to an average of 135 for April to December 2015.

Attendance times for priority one, from request received to arriving on scene have increased from an average of 18.6 minutes to 20.53
minutes and for priority two, have increased from an average of 25 minutes for April to December 2015 to 43 minutes for January to September 2016. Outrageous!(my word)

They have reduced their requests significantly by over 60% yet they have seen a less than satisfactory service provision with only 27.4 % of requests resulting in deployment of NPAS.

At worst the average overall response time for a priority two has been 54 minutes in April from request to arrival at scene. This is less than ideal(their words). 

NPAS were going to increase their cost to them by nearly a third due to(funny old thing) the fact that it’s taking NPAS longer to reduce their costs that originally thought, and the Force was requesting them too often, compared to other Forces. However NPAS relented, and agreed to keep their charges the same as last year.

The PCC and the Chief Con have requested that they be kept the same for more than one year.

I suspect that they are not the only ones in that situation. :sad::sad:

[ShyTorque]

MG, I'm sure all of us with any relevant experience will be saddened by those figures, but not at all surprised. What a complete mess.

[MightyGem]

Well, the Annual Report for 2015/16 has finally been published.
http://www.npas.police.uk/sites/npas.police.uk/files/files/npas_annual_report_2015_2016.pdf

Just a few random observations:
The number of compliance staff has been increased to 3
Wonder if that was written before or after the Compliance Manager quit?

The final revenue position for NPAS at the end of the 2015/16 financial year was that NPAS had delivered early savings of £2.1m in moving towards the full implementation of the new operating model.
In total NPAS spent £39m in 2015/16, up from £36m in 2014/15.
Does one not contradict the other? Plus, £39M his pretty much what the individual Forces spent on Air Support in their year prior to joining NPAS. No mention of any savings related to the forecast savings of £15M.

The numbers working for NPAS have remained consistent over the year, with a slight increase from 340.5 to 345.6
How can you have a fraction of the number of staff?

Of the 14 police staff leavers, seven were pilots, of these, 6 were resignations
Wonder why. Always thought it was a great job.:hmm:

Pilots are required by the CAA to cease flying as single pilots at the age of 60. Over the next four years 28 pilots will be at that point in their service. It had been hoped that the legislation might change but that does not look likely over the 4 year period and NPAS are commencing planning for such a large turnover of experienced pilots, although 3 leave in the first year and 4 in the second.
So, 14 pilots leaving in years 3 and 4. Problems ahead, I think.

Doncaster Airport will base the new NPAS fixed wing fleet of aircraft.
A strategic asset then, rather than a quick reaction one.

The build process is due to start July 2016 with a completion date of 31st March 2017.
Is it finished? Any FW there yet?

Wonder when the 2016/17 Report will be published?

[MaxR]

£39M his pretty much what the individual Forces spent on Air Support in their year prior to joining NPAS.

MG - Can you remind me what the actual figure was that all forces spent on air support prior to NPAS? And can you also remind me how much NPAS said they would save per year when all forces joined? Also how many air assets were available to the police services in England and Wales before NPAS and now? I genuinely can't remember, the years are catching up with me.

I noted that key achievements for 2015/16 have included the closure of four additional bases and that in 2014/15 the management team numbered 9 and in 2015/16 it was 13. Just observations.

[ShyTorque]

Is it finished? Any FW there yet?

Didn't look like the hangar was finished last week when I flew over.

[the_flying_cop]

Well well well. No bugger rings for them anymore as they know that the job will be over before they get there. When they do turn out the job is mostly over before they get there. Pilots leaving, costs increasing. I read just this morning about the Manchester airframe going to Hull for a job!!!!!

Someone needs to end this madness sooner rather than later.

Yes it's an expensive tool, but when used properly it is very effective. Transiting 20 minutes or whatever is not effective.

We used to be able to get anywhere within our 600 square miles well within 7 minutes (to the furthest point) and we had a fixed wing to compliment it!

Sad times indeed.

[ShyTorque]

TFC,

They will end it when they have proved (!) that police aviation doesn't work and is therefore a waste of money that can be dispensed with. Think of the savings! Think of the careers that will boost. It will have gone full circle.

Build a business case that shows that money can be saved by the use of aviation. Make it work. Then build another case to show how it can be improved while saving money. Then show that it is ineffective at any price and destroy it.

A complete farce.

[MightyGem]

MG - Can you remind me what the actual figure was that all forces spent on air support prior to NPAS? And can you also remind me how much NPAS said they would save per year when all forces joined? Also how many air assets were available to the police services in England and Wales before NPAS and now? I genuinely can't remember, the years are catching up with me.

Max, all my figures are based on the 36 Forces that were part of NPAS back in 2014. I asked them what was their total budget for Air Support for the last Financial Year prior to them joining NPAS. The total for those 36 Forces was £36.1M

At the time, there were(I think) 31 helicopters, with the Met operating 3 and Thames Valley 2(from different bases). I think there are now 15 bases with 18 aircraft(the Met still have 3). I heard at a social gathering(AKA as a retirement piss-up)the other night, that there is an "eight base" model and also talk of "super bases" with more than one aircraft.

NPAS were saying that they would be saving upto £15M a year here:
Benefits of NPAS | NPAS (http://npas.police.uk/about-us/benefits-npas)

Well, the "upto" bit is right.

[Thomas coupling]

http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/597233-pilots-court-over-sex-tape.html

What the hell next? Is NPAS just left with the dregs now- it being such a small force?
Have they replaced the safety officer yet?
Is that eejit still running it?

[Sky Sports]

What the hell next?

Apparently air displays over Oxfordshire with the RAF and air ambo's. #ThreatRiskHarm

[PANews]

Listen cartefully and you may be able to hear the popping of corks and the chink of glasses coming from Up North.

After months of silence it seems that Specialist Aviation Services [PAS/MAS] hav bought up the majority of the remaining ex-NPAS MD902s including G-BXZK, G-CMBS, G-GMPX, G-SUSX, G-SYPS & G-YPOL. Change of ownership on these all went through on July 17 and 18.

And the price paid for six £1M helicoptersthat have been hanging around for months? :ouch:

[Thomas coupling]

Good luck to them - they're going to need it. What in the name of faith are they going to do with 6 obsolete helo's?

[Sky Sports]

Strip for spares.

[MightyGem]

Use them for spares?

[Hedski]

Make one serviceable airframe perhaps. Along with the LincsNotts, EssexHerts and KSS HEMS machines there's a whole fleet of role kitted serviceable cheap airframes potentially to sell. If only London hadn't squandered an amount they're sercretive and unwilling to disclose on an unsuitable airframe in a far off land that required much more work to make serviceable they could have got a few years out of one of these for much less or even saved for a H135 as should have been the plan.

[Thomas coupling]

Whats the latest with that wild child who owned MD (Lyn Tilton?)

[PANews]

This week is the Airborne Law Enforcement bash in Reno, Nevada.

There may be things to learn that might explain a little about where the Explorer neuvelle may be interms of a future but she is not likely to turn up in person [insufficient adoring crowds] so it depends on what her staff have been instructed to say.

Most likely scenario suggests that the only display machine will be an MD530 variant.

[PANews]

Nothing new from MD on the Explorer NEW but as you will have picked up elsewhere MD have ditched their armed 540F variant in favour of sticking to the existing 530 products and an as yet undefined development of the MD600 without NOTAR.

Six months on from the HAI Heli-Expo launch of this project there is nothing new. Simply a paint job. The conversion from [space marginal] HEMS to Law Enforcement is simply paint the words on the side and hang a few turrets in the 'corners' regardless of the likely C of G issues. This is probably as far away as the 540F was.... if not further.

On other matters I am still looking for the elusive NPAS fixed wing. Nothing yet registered in the UK [G-POLX?] and no signs of OE-FAH the Austrian version locally either.

[Rotate too late]

http://www.eppingforestdc.gov.uk/news/?cat=270

[Daysleeper]

A fixed wing based a N Weald: No runway lights, no IFR approach.

Novel.

[Rotate too late]

A fixed wing based a N Weald: No runway lights, no IFR approach.

Novel.

YOU Sir are a negative ninny......and a mind reader! Kudos

[PANews]

They have to get the OK first..... and if they get the helicopters in that would be a start that never happened at other bases. Estree, East Midlands, Northolt..... and do not forget the daddy of them all.... foggy RAF Colerne....

They seem to constantly select locations with a pin and wonder why the research [that should have been done before the announcement] tends to deflect them...

I suspect the fixed wing is wish list as is 20,000 movements. It gives wiggle room and may stave off a later change in mind by EFDC.

If they get a yes they can pay for the ILS etc down the line ....... it might be cheap compared to the ongoing cost of making the 30-years old P68 fully IFR. Most police and ambulance units had to have relatively simple IL systems fitted over the years so its is just a bigger version of that.

[Thomas coupling]

So a 9 hour operation for the FW then, during the winter.
4 police units based there eh?
Almost a quarter of the NPAS fleet in one aerodrome.
Hope their security is sound!

[PANews]

That may be jumping the gun a little but it seems a potential scenario among others. Clearly what was laid out on launch day is way gone outtahereso effectively anything goes.

NPAS has a new press release out about North Weald .... uniquely it seems to have been announced on the PAN Facebook page as well as their ownwebsite.

Lummy.

[[email protected]]

If they get a yes they can pay for the ILS etc down the line ....... it might be cheap compared to the ongoing cost of making the 30-years old P68 fully IFR. Most police and ambulance units had to have relatively simple IL systems fitted over the years so its is just a bigger version of that. they should just invest in the aircraft fit and go for PBN approaches - far cheaper than installing and maintaining an ILS.

[Fly_For_Fun]

Is the roll out of the fixed wing replacement service for all the helicopter base closures, on schedule and within budget? It all seems to have gone a bit quiet.

[Sky Sports]

replacement service for all the helicopter base closures, on schedule and within budget?

Where to begin?????

Remember the last round of base closures? The ones that wouldn't close until the fixed wing was up and running to seamlessly take over the service. Looks like they couldn't wait that long!

[Thomas coupling]

So have more sites closed now?

How many left then? FFS

[Fly_For_Fun]

The question should be "How many more will close?"
and, where is the 2016/17 report?

[PANews]

The question should be "How many more will close?"
and, where is the 2016/17 report?

If the North Weald project gets the go ahead - and the atmosphere in the village is positive - there would be little point in keeping on Boreham as it is already surrounded by gravel workings and was doomed under the 2012 plan anyway. That would save money and make some sense.
The quoted 20000 movements at NW is way more than the current London unit needs so would allow its expansion into a super base later.

[Rotate too late]

If the North Weald project gets the go ahead - and the atmosphere in the village is positive - there would be little point in keeping on Boreham as it is already surrounded by gravel workings and was doomed under the 2012 plan anyway. That would save money and make some sense.
The quoted 20000 movements at NW is way more than the current London unit needs so would allow its expansion into a super base later.

Mate, agreed, but, it would seem rather premature to have shut Wattisham in that case as NW is even FURTHER from Suffolk Norfolk and Cambridge than Boreham is at the moment! 22 Sqn Hanger anyone?
Did someone say ILS, fire cover AND fences with people with guns?!

[PANews]

Mate, agreed, but, it would seem rather premature to have shut Wattisham in that case as NW is even FURTHER from Suffolk Norfolk and Cambridge than Boreham is at the moment! 22 Sqn Hanger anyone?
Did someone say ILS, fire cover AND fences with people with guns?!

Any stand alone NPAS site comes with fences and the others are extras that not all have. As far as I know, except for those on RAF stations, none require guns or hi-tech fire cover. Fire cover for the police and AA could be a talking point with the local fire crew. It is the fixed wing ILS that might be the radical departure that is going to cost real money especially as the location (yet to be agreed of course) has significant altitude restrictions in being under the Stansted flight path and is also just north of the Lambourne LHR stack by Stapleford.

[wigglyamp]

Surely you'd get a GPS LPV approved at North Weald rather than installing an ILS? This would save the long term maintenance and calibration costs associated with an ILS ground installation. The French are in the process ditching 33 ILS installations at regional airports in favour of LPV approaches. The P68 aircraft should be capable of LPV to an equivalent ILS CAT 1 minima with the current avionics fit.

[MightyGem]

NPAS so short of staff that they are recruiting retiring pilots and TFOs as civilian TFOs. :hmm:

[Sloppy Link]

A very selective choice of words designed to do nothing but cause mischief. Unsurprisingly disappointed.

[MaxR]

Unsurprisingly disappointed.

Sloppy, you may have unwittingly hit upon the perfect strapline there:

NPAS - Unsurprisingly Disappointed

[skydiver69]

The Police Oracle is reporting that NPAS is trying to make the case for a larger budget and fleet replacement following a year of 'unprecedented demand' such as Grenfell and the two London terror attacks.

https://www.policeoracle.com/news/police_it_and_technology/2017/Oct/23/Lack-of-police-helicopters-could-put-lives-at-risk_96043.html

[Thomas coupling]

So how's the unfair dismissal case going against NPAS, then.....:suspect:

[MightyGem]

Ha! Chickens come home to roost.

Costs/hours figures for 2016/7 to appear shortly

[ShyTorque]

Hey look, someone could make themself a career out of building an effective police aviation service....

...and around we go again!

[Pan Euro]

I know lets get some more bases and aircraft and make sure we give a good service.....oh we did that before didn't we!! This just proves what a total waste of money NPAS has been and we will now end up with no service or spending shed loads of cash to try and get back to what worked. Amateurs should not mess where they know nothing.

[Rotate too late]

I’m not pre NPAS, so can’t comment on that, but, I know an organisation that’s below critical mass when I see one. But I get the feeling that the only people that really give **** are in the dwindling bases....from Theresa Mays lovechild Amber to the ever expanding “leadership” there seems to be a rather unfortunate lack of appetite to spend on supporting the guys and girls on the ground....quelle suprise!

[Thomas coupling]

A pattern is forming.

For the same reasons the government in power at the time gives the "impression" it is struggling to fund the NHS, when in actual fact it desperately wants privatisation to 'save the day', so, too is NPAS being driven into the ground by the powers to be until or unless it is privatised or becomes a charity or until the budget is stopped.
To speed matters up, you employ a mercenary with absolutely no aviation experience or business acumen to lead it.
The government works in mysterious ways.......

Rotate too late hit the nail on the head: NPAS has dipped below critical mass - will it recover?

There is now only one aviator left on the board.....what does that say for police aviation in the UK?

{I can accept the demise of an already sick animal - but police aviation grew from nothing in the 80's to (one could argue) one of the best in Europe, possibly the world. The best pilots, the best cops, the best aircraft, the best equipment).
And now it's been allowed to go lame and there is no imperative to heal it.}

[MightyGem]

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v465/MightyGem/NPAS%20201617_zpswaqf2zmw.png

So, here are the costs per Force and flying hours for 2016/17. When I started this, way back in 2014, not all Forces were part of NPAS. Those Forces are shown by the white spaces, which are where I don’t have information for them.

As usual, there are winners and losers. The biggest loser is Avon and Somerset. They are paying £644,713 more than the previous year and £695,613 more than before they joined NPAS. Their hours are slightly down from 2015/16, but up from 2014.

The biggest winner, in terms of money saved, are North Wales. The’ve saved £809,776 on 2015/16 and last year’s payment is a massive £1,547,337 less than prior to NPAS. Mind you, their Air Support budget prior to NPAS was always a bit extreme, 1.5% of the total Force budget when the average for the North West was 0.5%.

Flying hours continue to drop, 15,432 last year, 1,705 down on the previous year. More telling though, I think, the 2014 Forces had 11,960 hours, that’s 9,149 less than prior to NPAS. How many of those 15,432 were taken up with 20, 30, 40 minute transits?

The cost per flying hour don’t seem to follow any logic: from £985/hour for Cumbria to £3,616 for West Yorks, an increase of £1,749 for them. I’ve asked for an explanation as why they are so different and how they are calculated.

Total cost of Air Support prior to NPAS: approx £46M with approx 25,000 flying hours and 30 aircraft. Now: £38.3M for 15,432 hours and 17(?) aircraft. Value for money?

[Sky Sports]

Hang on people. The fixed wing is just round the corner and its introduction will save the day!

It will slash costs and revolutionise police aviation, just like all the other times it has been tried in the UK.

[airfarceone]

Does anyone have any information on how the grounding of the GMP Defender has affected covert surveillance teams in the area? I believe the aircraft was predominantly used for covert ops?

[Coconutty]

Now I knw why I haven't seen my old Unit ( West Midlands ) flying
( around the West Midlands ) very much since Retiring !

Pre NPAS Budget spend was £1,731,654, ( Budget of £1,700,000 )
and is now £167,146 ( 9.65% ) less, although I understand that
in at least the first year post NPAS it cost them more.

What doesn't leap out from those costs is that prior to NPAS,
that budget paid for 1400 Hours.

So, less than a 10% "saving" has resulted in a reduction of 847 hours
to just 553 hours - a reduction in Police Air Support
over the West Midlands Force area of 60.5 % ! ! !

Never mind vague and indeterminate allegations of sexual assault
by Members of Parliament, what about the FACT that Police Air Support
has been well and truly ( :mad: ) "Shafted" by them ? ! :yuk:

Coconutty

[Colonal Mustard]

Does anybody know when the NPAS HMIC report is next due, be interesting to see whats its view is following the collapse of ASU's?

[MightyGem]

It's obviously a bit late. From November's Police Aviation News:
Meanwhile here in the UK we await with some impa-
tience the report of Her Majesty’s Inspector of Con-
stabulary (HMIC) into NPAS.

As you say, it will be interesting to see what it says.

[MaxR]

Just read the minutes of the last NPAS meeting on their website. Interesting reading.

[MightyGem]

Have you got a link? I can't find it.

[MaxR]

Sorry, MG, missed your reply:

National Strategic Board Minutes | NPAS (http://www.npas.police.uk/about-us/national-strategic-board-minutes)

[Thomas coupling]

The latest minutes from July. September's is still being de-sensitised, I presume.

The feeling I get is that other members of the panel are still unhappy about air support when they need it (or lack thereof).

There is a a shortfall of cash (in the red actually).

A cock up with the transition to FW (due to them not being able to calculate basic maths when it comes to available load capacity). Which is unusual since they have been down this procurement route several times with the Squirrel / 135 / 145 / 902 / FW - before. That must have hurt them finacially never mind professionally.

And lately it seems they have lost the unfair dismissal case with one of their board members, due plainly and simply to NPAS burying their head in the sand when it came to basic employment law. This has cost tens of thousands of pounds of taxpayers money wasted due to poor governance.
It seems they will be going through it all again soon as another member follows suit.
When will they ever learn - leadership comes from the top, time to review who is running this slow motion car crash methinks.

[MightyGem]

Sorry, MG, missed your reply:

Thanks for that.

as a result of the terrorist attacks, calls for service had been declined.
Hmm...I wonder why?

Oh no, they're going on a journey!!
OD advised this would be the first of regular updates in terms of NPAS’ journey to a fleet replacement

TC said: The feeling I get is that other members of the panel are still unhappy about air support when they need it (or lack thereof).

From an email from a Midland Force to me:
They aren’t particularly happy with what they are getting, and sent me a copy of one of their 6 monthly reports, on NPAS support, that the Force sends to the PCC.

Some of their figures are interesting/depressing. In the year to date(Report dated 28th November. Not sure if the year is from January or April)as a percentage of total calls, they had an attendance rate of 27.4% (38% 2014/15), a decline rate of 17.4% (11.6% 2014/15) and a cancellation rate of 44.8% (40.8% 2014/15). The cancellation rate represents where they have requested NPAS but subsequently cancelled them, often due to the incident being resolved or a change in circumstances.

Only 27 out of 100 times did an aircraft turn up.

Their average number of monthly requests for January to September 2016 was 53, a 61% reduction compared to an average of 135 for April to December 2015.

Attendance times for priority one, from request received to arriving on scene have increased from an average of 18.6 minutes to 20.53 minutes, and for priority two, have increased from an average of 25 minutes for April to December 2015 to 43 minutes for January to September 2016. Outrageous!(my word)

They have reduced their requests significantly by over 60% yet they have seen a less than satisfactory service provision with only 27.4 % of requests resulting in deployment of NPAS.

At worst the average overall response time for a priority two has been 54 minutes in April from request to arrival at scene. This is less than ideal(their words). 

NPAS were going to increase their cost to them by nearly a third due to(funny old thing) the fact that it’s taking NPAS longer to reduce their costs that originally thought, and the Force was requesting them too often, compared to other Forces. However NPAS relented, and agreed to keep their charges the same as last year.

The PCC and the Chief Constable have requested that they be kept the same for more than one year.


I suspect that they are not the only ones in that situation.

[Thomas coupling]

MightyGem:
Problem for the customer is that when they detect the response rate is not good, they don't bother calling as often. With demands on NPAS reduced, the number of future declined attendances by NPAS will be less thus making it look like the service has improved!

My contacts on the ground have described a 'malaise' has set in with police forces when air support is an option. They can't be bothered calling anymore due to the appalling response times / rejections etc.
The "system" will therefore stabilise for NPAS at this performance level and they can then project their performance going fwd on these poor base lines.

Smoke and Mirrors.

[Same again]

Coastguard helicopters are often called out on what used to be Police tasks these days. Mispers are a favourite (often nowhere near the coast) and we are often told that the 'weather' is the reason. Hmmmm. I wonder?

[Rigga]

Well, I've just read this last page and it really is quite depressing. (And I know that many things on Pprune are quite depressing)
When I left the Met ASU it had just gone through a series of lectures/talks to the BCUs asking/instructing them to call for air assistance on...anything!! I think, to see if they could get there before the event was over. Now, it seems, all that work has gone backwards and ASUs are perhaps actively rejecting calls. As had been previously stated, any series of rejections will lead to 'the customer' finding an alternative means of compliance...i.e. they just wont bother to call anymore.
The alternative you all really do need to watch is legislation to allow more of the dreaded Drones being carried in many or all cars!
That would be out of every/anyone's control.

[Thud_and_Blunder]

Wow. Just.... wow. Like Rigga, I find this truly saddening. It's as if the whole police aviation system had taken a good hard look at itself, found the least capable unit with the most effective spin-doctors in the country (not a million miles from where I used to live) and modeled the revamped system entirely around them. For units and Forces/Constabularies where aviation used to be an effective asset, I can only imagine what it must be like to deal with the revised system. Still, at least the criminals will be happy, eh?

[Rotate too late]

I predict a feeding frenzy for those looking for blood........

[MightyGem]

Given the widely differing cost per hour in my post #182, I asked NPAS the following:

If an aircraft is tasked to a Force:
When does that Force start paying? From take off, or arrival on scene?
If the aircraft is cancelled en-route, does that Force still pay?
If the aircraft is subsequently tasked to another Force while airborne, when does the second Force start paying?

If, for example, the Hawarden aircraft is tasked to Blackpool and then receives a task to Chester, whilst still over Blackpool, does Cheshire have to pay for the transit from Blackpool to Chester, some 20- 25 minutes, when if it was on the ground at Hawarden, it would be less than 5 minutes to Chester?

Back came the reply(after the statutory 20(although in this case 25 after a gentle reminder) days):

Each force is charged when an aircraft arrives on scene irrespective of where the aircraft has flown from. If the aircraft is cancelled en-route the force does not have to pay.
NPAS utilises ‘actioned calls for service’ as the currency for charging forces. This doesn’t rely on hours flown but creates a ‘unit cost’ by dividing the revenue cost of delivering NPAS against the numbers of calls delivered to forces.
The cost per force is calculated by considering
- The total revenue cost for NPAS
- The number of calls delivered to each force in the preceding 12 month period (Jan-Dec)
- The total cost is then divided by the number of actioned calls providing a cost per call to be
allocated
A call is only charged when an aircraft is assigned to a call and arrives on scene. If an aircraft is cancelled en-route the force requesting does not pay as an actioned call has not been delivered. If an aircraft is diverted en-route from one task to another it is only the force that the actioned call is delivered to that pays.


OK, so who pays for all the transit flying?

Meanwhile:
From November's Police Aviation News...
Meanwhile here in the UK we await with some impa-
tience the report of Her Majesty’s Inspector of Con-
stabulary (HMIC) into NPAS.

It's due to be published on Thursday, and should be available here:
https://www.justiceinspectorates.gov.uk/hmicfrs/publications/

Looking forward to reading it.

[Rotate too late]

Drum roll........

[helicrazi]

https://www.msn.com/en-gb/news/uknews/are-you-in-an-area-with-fast-police-helicopters/ar-BBFWz8W?li=AA59G2&ocid=spartanntp

[jayteeto]

It’s on the BBC this morning and it’s shocking
Are people going to be held to account for this?

[Flying Bull]

Well, it is accountants taking figures without background Data and without understanding.
Was the bird on the ground?
From when starts the time? Making the call, explaning where to go and what the mission is? Takes normaly a couple of minutes, well spent cause it is easier to gather Information on the phone compared to beeing in a noisy Environment where you should also do a lookout i.e..
How was the weather forecast, allowing immediate scramble or was it wise to have a look onto the enroute weather?
Was a direkt flight possible or were deviations due to weather or ATC necessary?
When does the clock stop?
First call on frequency or overhead, while the FLIR Camera was locked on the target and already scanning for the last three minutes before beeing overhead?
Which distances had to be covered between mission target and Point of scramble?
Any wind in favour or against the helicopter?
Only numbers you should just trash, thats only good for headlines but has nothing to do with how the buiseness works!!!

[jayteeto]

My missus is a Merseyside bobby. When I talk to her colleagues, they ALL say “we don’t bother asking for a helicopter anymore, there’s just no point”

[Thomas coupling]

Flying Bull, either you don't know who the HMIC are, or your foreign, which is it?

The facts speak for themselves, The man running this (the Chief Supt) has had enough time now to rebuild NPAS and make it more efficient.

He has bugg**ed the staff up placing non SME's in positions which require SME's!
He has removed nearly all the aviators from the decision making processes. Cops now account for 95% of the board?
He's bought FW before he did a proper technical assessment of whether the finished article would work (it hasn't).
He has located the assets in places where the shortfall in response times would make the biggest impact on operational performance indicators.

No wonder the results are what they are.

I would imagine he'll be moved sideways in 2018 by either the CC of W Yorks, or the PCC, so someone with experience in these matters can make the right decisions.
One of our jewels in the police crown has been tarnished simply because of bad management.

Let's see how they reverse out of this now, but I fear it will now come under the beady gaze of the treasury who will see it as a target for removal as a whole. NPAS will then have a whole new meaning: NO police air service.:ugh::ugh::ugh:

[[email protected]]

And all predictable and widely predicted by those in the know on this forum....

[Art of flight]

And all predictable and widely predicted by those in the know on this forum....

Nearly 2 years since I last posted, but all I can muster is........agreed.

[Flying Bull]

@Thomas Coupling
You‘re right, I‘m foreign - stil just throwing numbers in without background info is just not right and a kick in the a.. for those on the front trying to do their best against all odds.
I know how long it can take from call to target
And all the variables which interfer.
To discuss things properly much more info is needed, part of it you supplied.

[Thomas coupling]

Nothing to do with the front line troops FB. It's the NPAS board doing this damage.

HMIC are expert auditers.

I alos had 13 years working for NPAS and know exactly where the problem lies.

[ShyTorque]

Has a study been made into the money lost by NPAS by closing down aviation bases? The one I worked at wasn't finished until the late 1990s and has now been wasted.

[MaxR]

To discover this 5 years after NPAS launched is bad enough. If it is the case, as posters with specialist knowledge suggest, that they were warned by practitioners that this would happen 2 years or more before that and to have those warnings ignored is even worse.

[MightyGem]

I think this is the only positive comment that I came across:
Among those who lead police aviation, we have found high levels of skill, dedication and commitment. In particular, we recognise the major contributions made by the members of the NPAS National Strategic Board and especially by the current chief constable of West Yorkshire Police and the police and crime commissioner (PCC) for West Yorkshire.

I highlighted so many comments in the report that it's difficult to choose.

Since 2009, the number of police aircraft has been reduced from 33 to 19 and there has been a reduction of about 45 percent in the number of hours flown. There is some evidence to suggest that police officers are making less use of air support because it takes too long to arrive.
Well we all knew that. It was immediately evident with the formation of the North West Air Operations Group in 2011, the forerunner of NPAS.

We also found evidence that suggests that the way NPAS shift changes are scheduled has an adverse effect on aircraft availability at a particular time each day.
I raised that point back in 2011, about having Units all changing shifts at the same time.

There are strong indications that the police service now operates insufficient aircraft to provide consistently prompt responses to incidents in all forces in England and Wales.
No ****, Sherlock!

In 2008/09, the police service was operating 33 aircraft for an annual revenue cost of £45m, and initial calculations were that a national police air service could maintain a fleet of 29 helicopters for an annual revenue cost of £37.5m. In 2016/17, NPAS was operating 19 helicopters (with four fixed-wing aircraft still to come) with a revenue budget of £39.6m, an amount that represented a real-terms reduction in funding of about 28 percent since 2008/09. With each aircraft flying fewer hours on average, however, the cost per flying hour has doubled.
Not exactly "more effective and efficient".

Many frontline officers made it clear to us during our fieldwork, however, that a response time of up to one hour when dealing with a crime in action such as a burglary is far too long, and that the targets contained within the service level agreement are not fit for purpose.
Yep.

Professional practice requires air support for pursuits whenever possible and at the earliest opportunity, but officers in some forces told us that most pursuits ended before an aircraft could arrive. Some officers said that the delay was sometimes caused by NPAS questioning the necessity for air support in pursuit cases, and this made the work of pursuit and incident commanders more challenging, because they had to manage the pursuit without knowing if air support was a realistic tactical option.
I believe Pursuits were originally classed as Priority 2. :ugh::ugh:

In one force, officers reported that the number of pursuits had risen from 100 in 2014 to 336 in 2016, and that debriefing of prisoners had revealed that part of the reason was criminal perception that the police no longer had ready access to helicopter support.
Well, fancy that.

Judgments
• There is no clear evidence that current arrangements are financially any more or less efficient than when forces managed their own air support, and costs are not shared equitably between forces.
• NPAS in its current form is financially unsustainable: the capital investment strategy has left NPAS without adequate funding to replace its ageing fleet of aircraft.
Pretty damning.

It was suggested that some forces were now requesting air support more frequently than they had before, monitoring an aircraft’s travel, and then cancelling the aircraft shortly before it arrived if they were satisfied that the incident could be managed without it. This meant that there was no ‘actioned call for service’ and so no charge would fall to the force,
Oooo, sneaky!

jayteetoo said:
My missus is a Merseyside bobby. When I talk to her colleagues, they ALL say “we don’t bother asking for a helicopter anymore, there’s just no point”

Actually:
In 2016, Merseyside Police made the most calls for air support, with a rate more than twice the average for forces in England and Wales.

One thing that is absent from the report is any reference to manning levels(or should I say "staffing" this days), and comments on single crewing and aircraft being offline due to sick pilots any no reliefs.

Well, I think that's enough for now.

[ShyTorque]

Among those who lead police aviation, we have found high levels of skill, dedication and commitment. In particular, we recognise the major contributions made by the members of the NPAS National Strategic Board and especially by the current chief constable of West Yorkshire Police and the police and crime commissioner (PCC) for West Yorkshire.

Is this another way of pointing the finger of blame?

[Coconutty]

When I ( was compulsorily ) retired from a very efficient Air Support Unit, shortly before my Unit joined NPAS, I predicted, and mentioned on pPrune somewhere, that NPAS would not achieve its initial Sales Pitch objectives to provide a more efficient service at a reduced cost, and that in years to come, a dynamic thinking Chief Constable and / or PCC would turn full circle and decide that their Force was not receiving an adequate ( Fit for Purpose ) service, would leave NPAS and buy their own Aircraft, run by their own staff and Police Officers. :rolleyes:

I now wish I had put a few quid on that prediction with Ladbrokes ! ;)

Coconutty

[Colonal Mustard]

It seems the cops and HMIC know nothing about Helicopters according to this PCC, how absolutely arrogant of him and exactly the problem with NPAS's attitude

PCC questions HMICFRS ‘expertise’ on aircraft following damning report

01 Dec 2017

A police and crime commissioner (PCC) has defended the tasking arrangements of the National Police Air Service (NPAS) after a critical inspection report revealed forces are charged “inequitably”.

On Thursday (November 30), Her Majesty’s Inspectorate of Constabulary and Fire and Rescue Services (HMICFRS) criticised NPAS for weaknesses in governance, tasking arrangements, and its response times.

It made several recommendations for the air service to consider, and HM Inspector of Constabulary Matt Parr said “urgent reform” was needed.

Thames Valley PCC Anthony Stansfeld insists the National Strategic Board (NSB) – responsible for setting the strategic direction of NPAS – considered “every possible way of tasking” and the current model, which charges forces every time they request a helicopter, is the most “logical and fair”.

“Whatever formula you go to, some police forces are going to say it’s unfair or it’s not as good as it was. You’re not going to please everybody all the time.”

Mr Stansfeld, who ran British helicopters on the Falkland Islands and was previously managing director of the company that supplied airplanes to the police service, questioned the inspectorate’s knowledge of aircraft.

“My personal view is HMICFRS are not experts to put it mildly,” he said. “Whereas people like myself on the board, and the man who runs it operationally, know vastly more than they do about it.”

The report also revealed NPAS was spending large amounts of its capital on upgrading parts of old aircraft instead of replacing its “ageing fleet”, leaving it “financially unstable”.

As helicopters reach the end of their life expiry dates, changes to gear boxes and engines must be made, making them more expensive to maintain.

However, Mr Stansfeld claimed the helicopters are far from obsolete, noting that the Royal Air Force still operated Pumas bought more than four decades ago.

He went on to praise West Yorkshire Police for the set-up of the air service, as he said the force “made a pretty good fist at putting NPAS together” considering the limited resources available to policing.

NPAS will soon roll out fixed wing airplanes, which are less expensive to purchase and run, and stay in the air for longer than helicopters.

“Unless you need to land vertically, or look down roads between very high-rise buildings in the middle of cities, the actual requirement for helicopters on most of the tasks can be done by fixed wing,” he added.

“And so we are moving to some fixed wing as well as helicopters. Whether we move to more depends on how successful they are.”

The Ministry of Defence (MoD) recently ordered 29 EC135 helicopters for training, and Mr Stansfeld called on the department to “cooperate” with the police service.

Talks between the MoD and the NSB with on the joint maintenance, piloting and purchasing of aircraft have been “without much success”.

On response times, Mr Stansfeld said budget cuts have forced a reduction in bases, which has subsequently led to longer distances for the helicopters to travel.

“It’s not up to HMICFRS to make helicopters faster, I’m afraid. It’s outside their bounds of responsibility and capability”.

He added: “This is not something that it controls, nor does the police service itself really control.”

Police Professional :: News :: PCC questions HMICFRS ?expertise? on aircraft following damning report (http://www.policeprofessional.com/news.aspx?id=30988)

[MightyGem]

Back in post #182 when I posted the figures from 2016/7, I pondered:
How many of those 15,432 hours were taken up with 20, 30, 40 minute transits?

Well, it appears that none of them were. From my latest FOI request, all those hours were the charged for actioned calls for service for Forces for that period.

The cost all those transit hours is divvied up amongst all the Forces.

[PANews]

All very much as expected.

I was surprised to learn that the report was written by Matt Parr - a submariner not an aviator - recently joined HMICFRS which sort of explains some of the tangents he goes off on [like promoting drones as if they will be the answer to everything].

This morning an item from Police Professional appeared on the net...
” Thames Valley PCC Anthony Stansfeld insists the National Strategic Board (NSB) – responsible for setting the strategic direction of NPAS – considered “every possible way of tasking” and the current model, which charges forces every time they request a helicopter, is the most “logical and fair”.

“Whatever formula you go to, some police forces are going to say it’s unfair or it’s not as good as it was. You’re not going to please everybody all the time.”

Mr Stansfeld, who ran British helicopters on the Falkland Islands and was previously managing director of the company that supplied airplanes to the police service, questioned the inspectorate’s knowledge of aircraft”

Clearly a snipe at the authors background by a person of some standing.

Having met Mr Stansfield at a UK police aviation conference event I would say he has the future of police aviation very much at heart but his own positive stance does not actually resolve any of the core problems. Unfortunately he was the only member of the Strategic board to turn up. That says a great deal about the others.

[MaxR]

PAN

If they've considered “every possible way of tasking” then how in heaven's name did they choose the one they have which builds in unnecessary delays at every turn?

[tigerfish]

What really brasses me off, is that what has happened is EXACTLY what i predicted back in 2010 and 2011 and what got me into so much trouble for saying it! It didn't take a "brain of Britain" to work out that by reducing the bases and number of aircraft by over a third you were going to end up with a serious drop in operational efficiency. The remaining aircraft have greater distances to fly and as a result take longer to get there. Our rule of "If it it takes longer than 15 minutes to get there (From the start of the incident) then don't bother you will be too late!" That rule went out of the window! In addition fairly local crews knew their territory and often who they were looking for. All of that thrown away. No wonder the guys on the ground stopped asking for air support!
By 2008 Air support in this Country led the world! 6 years later with NPAS in control we were dead in the water! Yes there are still some very good units, but I would submit that they are good because they are the ones still located close to their main centres of demand.
A very sad story, But it is not down to the units on the front line, its down to the Bean Counters that drove the formation of NPAS as soley driven by money saving. The concept that a National Force using the existing fleet and bases could actually improve operational effectiveness never ever came into it. It was only ever about saving money not doing Police work!

TF Yes I'm still here even if very wrinkly these days!

[MightyGem]

Some more pearls of wisdom from the report:
when we visited NPAS in Wakefield in February 2017, we found that there were only eight aircraft available for operational deployment that day, and one of those had a fault that restricted it to daytime flying only. Two further aircraft were serviceable but deployed on training duties, meaning that the remaining nine aircraft were unavailable because of planned maintenance, faults or technical upgrades. It appeared to us, therefore, that one reason for the reduction in overall flying hours could be reduced aircraft availability when compared with the pre-NPAS period.
Heads should roll for that. Less than 50% availability!!!

Regarding the procurement of fixed wing:
In February 2015, the board decided to add a fourth fixed-wing aircraft, to allow three to be deployed operationally while one was released for maintenance. However, we found NPAS managers were uncertain where and how these aircraft would be deployed, and what effect their use would have on levels of service to forces. While there was an ongoing programme of work to deal with this, we were surprised that such procurement decisions had been made without a clear plan for deployment of these aircraft and a detailed understanding of the implications.
"Lets get some fixed wing. They're cheap to run. Save some more money"
"How are we going to us them?"
"Don't worry, we'll figure that out later. Just buy some and we can say we've saved more money."

...and there's more:
We were told by NPAS managers, however, that a fixed-wing aircraft will take at least twice if not three times as long as a helicopter to take off, and this might mean that it is more suited to tasks requiring long flying durations than those requiring an immediate response.167 We were therefore somewhat surprised that the board had taken the decision to purchase four fixed-wing aircraft based on the results of a limited trial and with limited analysis of their effectiveness.

[ShyTorque]

Any of us with any inside knowledge of UK police aviation support knew that the NPAS plan could never work as efficiently as what existed before. In aviation, reducing assets can only result in a reduced capability.

Unfortunately, those brought in to run it were adamant that it could.

I used the term "smoke and mirrors" more than once. The smoke has now been blown aside.

[airpolice]

Shy, it wasn't supposed to be as efficient, it was supposed to be cheaper.

Therefore it is a success, and getting better with every cutback.

[ShyTorque]

I recall it being put forward as both. I said here, that people had made a career by showing that money could be saved by using helicopters (to greatly reduce man hours used to carry out searches, which they do) and that someone else would make a career out of dismantling it all, to prove that money could be saved by doing so.

A case of the cat being out of the bag, rather than a rabbit being pulled out of a hat.

[PANews]

.... a fixed-wing aircraft will take at least twice if not three times as long as a helicopter to take off, and this might mean that it is more suited to tasks requiring long flying durations than those requiring an immediate response.....

How do they know that?

The Chief Pilot was, I understand, based at an International Airport in Manchester where time to gain access to the runway will have been long. I understand that at Teesside - and you can ditto that at Doncaster - it was so quiet that take-off times were short.

And this takes us to the point .... they have not flown fixed wing for a couple of years, how do they know? No plan, no tactics and no interim aircraft. There are a couple EO/IR equipped P68 out there they could have on lease.... OK they are not identical or IFR but they could have been doing something with them. Like flying over Norwich chasing hares....

Meanwhile the pilots for the as yet undelivered [or certified] P68 aircraft are on their 900th game of Kaluki....

[Rotate too late]

What do you mean how do they know that? A 135 can get airborne in less than three minutes! So nine minutes is a minimum! Look at where the bloody thing is based. Instead of managing expectations the fixed win* guys have over sold it, nice one. Well, when you turn up on a nice miserable day, next to class D that won’t let you in, and the target is hard to eyeball. People will be lining up to stick the knife in. Paybacks a bitch.
It’s gonna be used, it’s gonna be of limited value. The drivers of this only need to be reminded of their over selling of the 15 base model to show that their ability to plan is ****e. Remember the rings anyone?

[PANews]

How do they know that?

I spoke with a police fixed-wing pilot that did it regularly.

OK on a good day a 135 wins hands down most of the time but when you add ice, frost and snow you need to keep the skid-equipped helicopter inside and cosy where the fixed wing [regularly warmed up] can taxi-straight out of open doors. The helicopter needs to be taken out on the Helilift and then started.

Yes the statement was sailing pretty close to the wind!:p

I think the need for SPIFR on the fixed wings is to get them off the ground at Doncaster to fly to areas where the weather is not closed in.

Nothing has changed in police aviation that much. If you arrive on scene and cannot see them through the window because of rain, snow or fog you are going home.... especially in a fixed wing.

[Coconutty]

"... it wasn't supposed to be as efficient, it was supposed to be cheaper. ..."

The NPAS concept was originally touted to the then Police Authorities and Chief Constables, as being "More effective ( not efficient ), and at a reduced cost".

When, and rightly so, questions were asked to quantify the improvements in Effectiveness, and the reductions in cost, which they ( NPAS ) could not answer, and Forces became reluctant to sign up for a Service with such unknowns,leading to delays in implementation, the Home Office Minister of the Day ( Nick Herbert ) got his BIG Rubber Stamp out, and ORDERED all Forces to comply - and sign up to NPAS.

From that moment on (IMHO ) the concept was doomed - it no longer mattered whether the new Service would achieve its Aims & Objectives to be more Effective ( or more effficient ) and cost less,because everyone HAD to join in - regardless ! :yuk:

Coconutty

[Rotate too late]

Taxi straight out of open doors? WTF? It’s a rub hangar!
And when exactly have we had these nasty days. Less than one percent of the time?
Get Mr fixed wing on here, I’ll have his pants down. It’s all well and good crowing about it when it’s never been actually been used but let’s see about when it’s operational, the warranty has run out, it’s been over tasked. Oh and where exactly is the anti icing capabilities?
I’m pissed off with these so called experts and managers (and journo’s) claiming to know better, doing down the work we do, in cabs that are well and truly passed their sell by date because the retards didn’t bother to PLAN.
Who cares if the guys a submariner? He’s obviously very capable and has seen through pretty much all of NPAS’s BS. I can assure you that most at my base are relieved, because now the awkward questions can be asked and answered....honestly I hope.

RTL

[PANews]

Rotate...

Unfortunately I really do not think that the awkward questions once asked will be answered. Yesterdays report will, as usual, be tomorrows door stop.

But we can but try. And you never know the rank and file may well be lucky this time...

BTW it is a Rubb Hangar. And yes, the ancient one from yesteryear [Falklands and all] was operating out of a tin hangar, and yes its all different these days and we old b****** know nothing about anything but, unfortunately for you, its us that have the wherewithall to shout the loudest without a chance of losing our jobs on your behalf. Win or lose.:sad:

And I think, as an independent, it is fair for me to say there have been casuaties among the older generation. Tigerfish was taken out by Alex Marshall as his handle was too transparent. Lost his job on the altar of resisting NPAS. Evidence enough that the ancients are playing their part.

[EESDL]

NPAS ...... debacle

[MightyGem]

It’s all well and good crowing about it when it’s never been actually been used but let’s see about when it’s operational, the warranty has run out, it’s been over tasked. Oh and where exactly is the anti icing capabilities?
Plus the fact it runs on AVGAS, which is going to limit refuel locations, especially at night when all the smaller airfields that stock it are shut. :ugh:

[PANews]

With the newspaper text now appearing in Lancashire including little gems like "The decision to close the Lancashire’s police helicopter base was made based on flawed information" and "The report also confirmed campaigners’ claims that models used justify the decision to close the Warton air base earlier this year were inadequate."

NPAS is now faced with a perception that it lied through its teeth to close Warton and therefore it stands to reason that it also lied to close down such as Wattisham [before the fixed wing aircraft were ready to replace them].

Probably less of a case with Teesside as it is in a fairly crowded area as far as bases are concerned but that yawning capability gap between Husbands Bosworth and the East Coast, London and Newcastle is all but indefensible.

Asuming the P68s ever turn up.... there will be issues with how to get AvGas and there will be a training period involved. So when they do turn up there will be six months in which the logistics of where they can uplift AvGas at night and what they need to put in place to make that work. That is exactly the sort summer weather operations they could have undertaken in the last few months in a non-capable VFR P68 [or a BN2 for that matter] on lease. But what do they seem to have done?

I guess there will be options to put in place temporary AvGas bowsers at existing bases including Exeter and Hurn assuming that the ILS will work for them out of hours. North Weald has already been mooted as a fixed wing base but it has no landing aids regardless of time of day. The number of diversion airfields must be severely limited and that [May 2017] mooted "6 hour endurance" is clearly pie in the sky where IFR flight is concerned.

[Thomas coupling]

Does any of this really matter anymore?

The bottom line (first hand) is that more and more police forces are now circumventing NPAS and doing their own thing.
NPAS are just an inconvenience.

The FW additions will further exacerbate the matter.

[MightyGem]

The bottom line (first hand) is that more and more police forces are now circumventing NPAS and doing their own thing.
In what way, TC?

[airpolice]

I think he means old fashioned police work, with cars, bikes and horses, and buying their own SUAS for photography tasks.

None of which will do what used to be done, but the current system isn't doing that either.

[tigerfish]

The Original Concept of a National Police Air Wing was fundamentally a good idea. It would have brought with it economies of scale in purchasing new aircraft. Standardised aircraft & equipment, One Insurance Policy, One fuel supply contract, One maintenance contract, better standard of training etc etc. All aimed at increasing efficiency at the point of delivery. It could have a been 1st Class organisation, had the main aim been that of enhancing delivery and efficiency! Tragically as we all know, and many of us recognised immediately, there was only one aim, that of saving shed loads of money. Efficiency of service delivery was never in the plan, and never could be, given that sole objective. Value for money?? Whats that?? Never heard of it!

Tigerfish

[MightyGem]

there was only one aim, that of saving shed loads of money.
That might have been the aim, but they've failed on that as well. From the HMICFRS report:
In 2008/09, the police service was operating 33 aircraft for an annual revenue cost of £45m, and initial calculations were that a national police air service could maintain a fleet of 29 helicopters for an annual revenue cost of £37.5m. In 2016/17, NPAS was operating 19 helicopters (with four fixed-wing aircraft still to come) with a revenue budget of £39.6m

[airpolice]

Quote:
there was only one aim, that of saving shed loads of money.


That might have been the aim, but they've failed on that as well. From the HMICFRS report:

Quote:

In 2008/09, the police service was operating 33 aircraft for an annual revenue cost of £45m, and initial calculations were that a national police air service could maintain a fleet of 29 helicopters for an annual revenue cost of £37.5m. In 2016/17, NPAS was operating 19 helicopters (with four fixed-wing aircraft still to come) with a revenue budget of £39.6m



Well if that's not grounds for going back to what we had before, nothing is!

How do we go about setting up a privatised service, outwith the Police, so that NPAS have no input, but charging the forces directly to give them value for money? Woodvale is still available, we could start off with just one force and see how we get on.

All it takes is one PCC to grow the balls to opt out of NPAS, on the basis of the figures above.

[Rigga]

LOL! Shortly after the demise of the Nimrods, I was part of a consortium trying to replace a service previously done by Nimrods, but for a commercial operator. We got as far as picking our aircraft and discussing locations with some lovely airports when the plug was unexplainedly pulled, and we assume that it was a government instruction to pull our funding (£60m).

[Rotate too late]

Can a force opt out? How would the legal ramifications be felt? Genuinely interested.

[Pan Euro]

You don't need to have a national air support network to save money - as this exercise has proven. 5 forces successfully got together pre NPAS to replace the old T1 fleet and made significant savings as well as standardisation of role equipment. What this proved was that if you let those who know what they are talking about do a job it gets done much better!
Alas I fear it is all much to late now and for those of us who worked hard to provide a proper service extremely disappointing.

[tigerfish]

H99. You might be right, - but how many have tried it? Ive never seen any requests for donations to the Police Helicopter!

My feeling is that the Criminal has suddenly realised that are are no bobbies on the beat any more, and in many area no air cover either, so he's started back up to his old tricks again. Thefts of motorcycles have shot up around here, and muggings too.

Tigerfish

[Aucky]

but ask them to pay more tax to help fund dementia care (for example), or to support the police helicopter and you will get a very different level of eagerness.

Especially since the report - it shouldn't be about needing to spend more money, we aren't spending any less money than pre-NPAS but it was money much better spent before. People should demand the pot is better utilised before agreeing to make it bigger.

[500e]

well, about £6 million less. But that is not a lot in the grand scheme of public finances
And at what cost to hour flown :{ sums don't add up

[tigerfish]

The problem goes deeper than that. The operational advantage of the system prior to the NPAS cuts was based on the credo that "any officer can request Helicopter support" just as he/she could request the attendance of the Police Dog. As soon as the ASU evaluated the call, deciding whether they could provide the service required, they would deploy. Normally the arrival on scene would be less than 20 minutes max. NB 20 minutes from the commencement of the incident, NOT 20 minutes from the call being made.
If the latter criteria were followed then there was a reasonable chance of a successful outcome.
NOW with the jam spread so thin, and distances so great, an effective response is practically impossible, so less and less calls for helicopter assistance are being made. What's the point?
By the time the Helicopter reaches the scene, it will be much too late to help. So today the Helicopter is really only of use in pre planned operations such as marches and demonstrations etc.

Yes before anyone says that is not the case, I would say that there will always be exceptions, especially when the incident is fairly close to a base, but the cold hard truth is that 19 helicopters can never hope to provide the level of service to the Guy in trouble on the ground that 33 could. And remember the guy on the ground can feel very alone and unsupported at times.

Tigerfish

[backtothebeat]

Can a force opt out? How would the legal ramifications be felt? Genuinely interested.

The original contract stated if more than half of the England and Wales forces decided to opt out then the whole thing would be dissolved...
Not sure if that has been amended since.

Short of that the answer is no..
An individual force cant.

[4468]

Tigerfish

I couldn’t agree more. Very well said!

The recent rationalisation is utterly stupid, until you appreciate that there is only one aim. Cutting cost. Absolutely nothing else. But the REAL stupidity is that it doesn’t even achieve that!

Crackers!

[Thomas coupling]

It's not 'just' the money saving directive, it's what you do with what you got!
Maybe the costs mean one has to make the remaining 19 aircraft work harder or more efficiently and this is where the regime let's itself down.
The vast majority of the board and the overseers are cops. Cops are good, we all know that and very efficient they are too when it comes to traditional policing. BUT this is not and never has been a traditional means of policing. The aviation world is complex, buying maintaining and operating the right aircraft to carry out this policing is complex and requires experts in the field.

How many aviation epxerts are left on the NPAS board - ONE. He knows who he is. He is responsible for providing the right technical information and the most effective operational inputs to make the 'model' work.
Rumour has it he is just waiting out his time and his pension before he retires and his inputs are virtually non existent these days....is that right I wonder.
4 x FW is an example where the aviation expert has been derelict in his duty, I would suggest.
It must be wearing having to keep his head above water amongst all those cops.:ugh:

[MightyGem]

NPAS seem to think that they've saved £17M rather than the £6M stated in the report, and the £7M that I had estimated.
running costs have been significantly reduced from £55 to £38m
News | NPAS (http://npas.police.uk/news/statement-her-majesty’s-inspectorate-constabulary-fire-and-rescue-service-hmicfrs-police-air-su)

[Letsby Avenue]

Quite right TC. Police Aviation was successful because UEOs kept the whole operation at arms length from the police

[MightyGem]

The only press coverage that I could find:
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2017/nov/30/police-helicopters-miss-thousands-call-outs-england-wales