Did you ever have a "moment" when flying

[Fonsini]

By moment I mean moment of sheer terror.

Roland Beamont describes such a moment in his autobiography. Roland came all the way through the Second World war as a fighter pilot, he was shot down and captured as a prisoner of war, and tested the early prototypes of many tricky aircraft including the Lightning. He even pioneered the idea of solo night attacks on targets of opportunity in the Typhoon, but per his own assessment he was only ever terrified when flying on one occasion.

A middle eastern Strikemaster customer had complained to BAe that the "fire control system" was not performing as promised (an FCS on a Strikemaster - is that "ring and bead" ?) and Roland was dispatched to identify the problem. Their chief pilot was ex-RAF as I recall and he took Bee up on a QWI type sortie. On the way to the range he had the Strikemaster running wide open on the deck. With sand dunes looming ahead Bee expected the pilot's low-level display to end with a pull up, but he simply pressed on and avoided each dune by rolling and raising the wingtip as required with the dune disappearing just a couple of feet under each wing at 400 knots or so. Bee believed that the pilot expected him to grab the stick but he kept his hands on his knees the entire time, apparently he was quite shaken by the experience but kept his cool.

Maybe it's different as a passenger, pilots rarely have enough time to worry about things, but was there "a moment" in your career ?

[Basil]

As you say: when someone else is flying.
Leeming mid 60s - JP (again).
QFI asks if I'd like to come along on his CT flight. Needless to say, I jumped at the opportunity.
He dropped into a steep sided valley and navigated it by going from 6g turn to 6g turn.
Every time we went to 80deg bank (and, of course, lost sight of t'other side) I thought 'Bang seat isn't going to help here! I'll just get splatted on nearside instead of offside!'

Big aeroplanes and coffee for me! ;)

ps: The other 'moments' were over before I realised they'd happened - e.g. close to midair in low vis, almost hitting hill etc etc.

[Adam Nams]

Any GH sortie in the Sea King.

[typerated]

I'd imagine 400kts in a Strikemaster is pretty interesting!

[Octane]

Chatting to a lovely bloke Dave over a few beers in Bali not so long ago as you do.
Ex RAF who flew Hastings, VC 10's (he loved that aeroplane, oodles of power apparently..?) and ended up a big wig at Cathay Pacific.
Was telling a story involving the Malayan campaign involving a Hastings. They were doing runs dropping supplies to the boys on the ground. On the way home to his alarm, he noticed all the fuel gauges dropping. Made it back ok only to find fuel leaking from dozens of bullet holes in the wing tanks!
Asked him how many drops they did?, obviously a few too many he replied!

[Hydromet]

I'm not a pilot, but a late colleague flew bombers during WWII, and aerial photography in now Indonesia thereafter. However, he claimed that his "moment" was when flying a glider and the wing literally fell off. He became the first glider pilot in Australia to use his parachute.

On the way down he was trying to remember from >25 years ago how to land. Remembered to spit out his false teeth just in time.

[Basil]

Remembered to spit out his false teeth just in time.
. . . and claimed on the insurance for having all his teeth knocked out! :E

[Basil]

lovely bloke + big wig at Cathay Pacific
Should make him easy to identify! :E

[Alex Whittingham]

Unbriefed Khe Sanh approach in a Jetstream, all I could see was the numbers on the runway getting bigger.

[TURIN]

I 'flew' hang-gliders for nearly twenty years.

I think at least 50% of the flights had at least one moment of shear terror. :O

But there again, Anything you could walk away from AND re-use the glider afterwards was considered a success.

[Sandy Parts]

TURIN - you're not really selling that as a hobby to take up... ;)

[Union Jack]

I think at least 50% of the flights had at least one moment of shear terror - Turin

I see what you did there!:D

Jack

[noflynomore]

Autos in the old (no visuals) SeaKing sim at Culdrose. My oppo misread the altimeter and flare-check-leveled at 1050 feet instead of 50. I damn nearly had an underwear malfunction - half-crown, threepenny bit, dustbin lid! I knew he'd just killed us both, and then realised it was the sim...I was shaking for an hour!

[rolling20]

None in my Bulldog time, but plenty when flying privately. The most scary of which was a Marchetti ( it had tip tanks, so that was my assumption) nearly hitting me head on over the North Downs, whilst I was receiving a flight information service. The damm thing wheeled round in a WW2 type head on attack. I shoved the nose down and applied full power ( all 180hp of it) and prayed! My ATPL passenger (who was map reading at the time) and myself both hit the roof and got a face full of dust and debris. He had to take my word for what was about to happen,as it was over in seconds and luckily it flew above us!

[Trim Stab]

Getting sucked into a CB at about 4000ft in a light twin near Nice - five mins of terror with windscreen completely iced over, hail smashing from the props on the fuselage sides, battling with huge control inputs to keep wings level, stall warning horn blaring then overspeed, falling altimeter. Eventually came out of the bottom at 800ft over the sea.

[MPN11]

OK, have a giggle about a <30-hour PPL student during his Flying Scholarship at Kidlington on the Piper Colt (wow, real aeroplane!!)...

1. Solo GH sortie. Pre-descent checks, pull out Carb Heat knob ... which came out of the instrument panel, along with the cable. I was in one with radio, so calmly called Pan, Pan, Pan on Oxford Tower frequency. No reply. Someone else replied, and said he would land and get an Instructor up to the Tower. Followed the subsequent advice (avoid large power changes) and landed smoothly (as I usually did).

2. Solo Navex. Got a bit close to (inside) the Upper Heyford Zone, leading to White Vereys! Soon afterwards, encountered slipstream of a B-47 (those were the days) and was pleased I was quite good at "Unusual attitudes ... Recover." Didn't my Instructor check my Flight Plan/Chart? I'm sure I was on track.


Well, we all had to start somewhere. As it transpired, I didn't get much further anyway ;)

[oldbeefer]

TRIM STAB. You were lucky - I heard of a French Puma that went into one that came out vertically with no rotor blades about 10 mins later.

[rolling20]

MPN11, I can empathise with you there. Some 20 years before the Marchetti incident, same area, same flight information service, on Qualifying Cross Country, straight in to IMC and right above Rochester airport. The controller said 'everyone keep a good lookout' , which seemed daft to me as I was in cloud. My thoughts were about the 2minute rule which I had been told was all you could expect to survive in cloud with no rating. Lucky for me that day, a quick 180 and what seemed like an age and I popped out of it, to land 15 mins later to a v surprised CFI, who had thought I'd be a few hours!

[longer ron]

A few :)
The really terrifying couple of 'moments' were over so quickly that of course the effects come later LOL.
Certainly had some worrying moments when out in my glider x-country,but they mostly were not terrifying,more of a ''why am I at 400' in the middle of nowhere on a sunday afternoon - when I could be relaxing at home''.
My first long distance glider flight was 320k out/return for diamond goal,O Sarum/Hapenny Green/O Sarum.
One of our senior instructors said ''youll never make it'' but luckily I had chatted to a very experienced guy from another club - he had said ''never give up''.
On the first leg I had seen the sky turning grey behind me but pushed on to the turn point photo and took as much as I could from the last visible thermal.
Turning south I was actually saved by a large bonfire (cold air) and then some embedded Cu in the overcast ohead Droitwich,I then pedalled cautiously down to the Cotswolds and managed to get enough height to cross safely (the vis was orrible into sun),on popping out into the sunshine - there were only 2 clouds on trackish - I chose the darker one and joined another glider scratching around over Pewsey - as soon as I saw him steeply banked into a turn I joined him to be sociable :) - took it for every foot I could and ended up on the final glide at VNE to burn off all that height :).
6hrs 30min of sheer fun with a low pass over the caravan and a chandelle into the circuit to land with feet like blocks of ice (september)

[JEM60]

Flying along in my PPL days, showing my passenger what was happening with the VOR needle. Looked up. Blue Cherokee coming straight at me head on, both at 2346 ', ' cos I thought nobody else was daft enough to fly at that height. Twanged it hard right, banged the throttle, at exactly the same time as he turned HARD LEFT!!!!!!!!!!.. Was very. very close. That's when I learnt that it is good to talk to people like radar services etc. when the vis is not great.!!!:ouch::ouch: Whoops. Just noticed should not not have posted on this section. I wasn't Military. Apologies, but someone may learn something from it.

[oldbeefer]

My worst moment in 45 yrs of rotary flying was probably in Belize when flying in a Puma at 1000ft and 130 kts over the jungle, the best part of one set of tail rotor blade pockets decided to part company with the stainless leading edge. The vibration was incredible. Stuck it down in a swamp. Inspection showed the backend would have probably detached 30 seconds later, with the inevitable tent peg result. The 'cure ' was a 'tap test' to check other blades after every flight. Cured by introducing carbon fibre blades some time later.

[MPN11]

No problem, JEM60 ... calling your friendly local Military unit for radar service is what we ALL want!

Waddington Zone frequency was solid with you guys back in the 80s ... everyone then knows who is where, instead of avoiding unknown traffic all the time. I used to get my radar trainees in at the weekend, to learn about high-intensity low-speed traffic. Having a dozen on frequency was not uncommon. :eek:

[MACH2NUMBER]

So many moments I cannot count.
Shadows flashing over the cockpit during multiple combat training with a slipstream bump! Adversaries trying to join you in your own cockpit. Being dragged around in large formations in dodgy weather etc etc. Which is why I keep to the golf course now, even that is not safe!!!!

[Vzlet]

In a T-34, sightseeing in central California, with a friend in back. 8000 feet or so high and a couple of miles off the Big Sur coast on a gorgeous day. The plane was in the old Navy "yellow terror" bright yellow paint scheme. Looking down down the right wing while doing a steep turn, I couldn't help but notice how picturesque the yellow wing looked against the sparkling Pacific far below. Still looking at the wing, I started marveling how such a surface can interact with the invisible air in such a manner as to allow us to travel through the sky:

"What a miracle! Held aloft by forces we can't see — free to enjoy this astonishing perspective. But what if that's not really how it works? What if it's really faith that holds us in the air? Implausible perhaps, but that would mean that doubt could ruin the miracle. I hope I don't doubt. Oh no, I doubted!"

The resulting flash of panic lasted long enough to make me yank the plane level again before accepting that, no, it probably is that aerodynamic thing after all.

[Fonsini]

I am a wealth of second hand military stories if nothing else, and as the OP I feel justified in sharing a story in a similar vein but for a different service - to whit, the United States Navy.

One of my American relatives was the reactor officer on a boomer back in the 1980s, I forget which one but I do recall him telling me she was later placed into service as a tethered training vessel for trainee nukes, and he was refused access to her during a subsequent stint as a civilian contractor even though he was her reactor officer for many years and also taught at the US Navy's nuke school (his Admiral Rickover story is the stuff of legend and worthy of a thread in its own right, but I digress, so on with the "moment" story.)

He had only recently qualified as an OOD watchkeeper, and as the youngest and most junior officer so qualified he pulled the worst duty shift - the early morning hours, but for that time he had full command of the ship. They were crawling along at 4 knots or so when the sonar room whistled him up with a passive contact dead ahead, a minute later when he asked if there was any change in target bearing the sonar operator replied that there was not - it wasn't crossing, it was coming straight at them. He couldn't give their position away with active sonar to warn what was now known to be another sub, if he dived or planed up he could just as easily hit them as if he stayed on depth. So he changed nothing and summoned the captain from his cabin. Just as the captain rushed into the con wearing nothing but his underwear the entire submarine lurched violently to one side, they never knew how close what was later identified as a Soviet hunter killer came to them, but it was very close - he told me he had nightmares for a long time after that, knowing how close he came to what would have been the worst submarine disaster in history. Apparently Soviet submariners who reached the end of their patrol routinely headed for port, wives, girlfriends, and vodka (in that order) at flank speed as stealth was no longer a concern at that point and they just wanted to get home.

I'm sure that this and a thousand more cold war stories just like it will never be made public, but there it is. Today he works in nuclear safety having reached the top of his game, but he very nearly didn't....

[Octane]

Sorry if this is a daft question, but why wasn't turning away an option?

[PPRuNeUser0139]

A quick diversion for an interview with Admiral Rickover:
https://vimeo.com/56270169#t=NaNs

[VX275]

I've had a number of flights as a pilot when I wished I was on the ground and not in the air, but they all occurred in light aircraft and involved landings in winds / crosswinds which were out of limits (they were OK when I took off - honest). However the closest to death I ever came to in a military aircraft happened during a Boscombe airdrop trial. A new system for dropping RIBs required that the extractor parachute should lower the platform slow enough that it didn't get damaged as it hit the water. The PT were fed up with repairing the previous system.
The designer of the new system, with eyes on foreign sales, had decided to use the American G12 parachute both for the load and in a reefed form as the extractor. The first time we dropped the system the G12 extractor decided to de-reef itself with the result that the boat exited the Herc at warp speed and when it separated from the platform the RIB went UP with the bow out of sight hidden by the Herc's tail, I thought it had taken the duck's bill with it, it hadn't.
As boat drops were an expensive logistic nightmare it was decided that an MSP could be adapted so that development work could continue closer to Boscombe. Reassured by the parachute manufacturer that the de-reefing couldn't happen again we head off to Larkhill for the drop. Watching the extractor leave the aircraft it was almost in slow motion that I saw the reefing fail yet again. What wasn't slow motion was the exit speed of the MSP which was so fast that it did the magician's table cloth trick by exiting whilst leaving the recovery parachutes hanging in the air still in the cabin. With the G12 (sky anchor) extractor parachute still attached to the MSP now well clear of the aircraft the recovery parachutes landed on the cabin floor and stayed there whilst paying out the risers and when they came taught the snatch was such that parachute bags shot over the ramp leaving the parachute canopy behind. The tangle of parachute rigging lines and canopies slowly rolled down the ramp and finally off. Leaving me arguing with the Loadie over what we had just seen.
Being a Boscombe trial there were many cameras fitted to the Herc covering the drop and it was the following day when we sat down to view the film, shot at high speed so we viewed the action in slow motion, that we realised just how close to disaster we had been. If any of that nylon from the recovery parachutes had snagged on the roller floor........... I still shiver when I show people that film.

[Maxibon]

BFTS at CF in the 80s. About 40 hours in on the JP3 and during my amazing aero routine on a solo GH trip I got in to an inverted spin; don't ask me how. I finally recovered at about 2,500 ft; again, don't ask me how. It was a couple of weeks after Bill had banged out near Flamingo Land and I was more scared of the bollocking for losing a jet rather than the thought I might end up in a smouldering pyre. 19 and stupid.

[ancientaviator62]

VX,
I seem to recall that the RIB almost did for Mrs Thatcher as she witnessed a drop in Studland Bay. The system was a classic case of overcomplication IMHO.
I have related in the Hercules thread the tale of our high level ULLA maldrop.
That was 'interesting' !
The big worry on the heavy drop trips was that for some reason the platform would not leave the a/c but the Type 66s would de-reef as they were deployed outside the a/c. The stuff of nightmares.

[VX275]

the RIB almost did for Mrs Thatcher
You mean JATE's failed military coup as it was known at Boscombe.
And it was the platform and not the RIB that landed on Maggie's boat, probably another reason why the PT were keen that the platform had a slower rate of descent.

[Haraka]

Tell me a pilot who hasn't!.
My first occurred first time solo out of circuit in a Cherokee from OATS at Kidlington in 1968 on a Special Flying Award. Only maps issued were 1/2 Mil. I floated up and off toward the NE enjoying the view up to at about 4500 ft, then suddenly, as it was a bit hazy , couldn't see anything on the ground that related to the map. Never minding, I turned SW and headed back.
The only problem was that I then found myself blundering above what turned out to be 8/8 low stratus and thus out of site of the ground. Having no instrument training whatsoever , and not wishing to stray too far, I put the beast into a 15 degree left bank turn on the AH, slightly nose down. and throttled back a bit to a trimmed descent through my first experience of Instrument flying (ever) and in cloud. Round and round we went ,down and down we went: Then at about 1500 ft suddenly broke out of cloud ( Phew!). Immediately I knew where I was ; Beckley Radio mast!, Since I had just had a very good close look at one of its guy wires.
I slunk back to the inevitable debrief with my Ex RAF Hurricane ,Swift etc. instructor. I relayed honestly what had happened, which apart from a few exclamations of ,"And then you did ?, WHAT !", was comparatively gentle. I think he could see how much I had frightened myself.
I was extremely lucky.(On that occasion).

[Dougie M]

The Maggie Incident. It has been laid at my door that I tried to sink the P.M. that day but it was one T*** D****** who released the Atlantic 22 near the P.M.'s boat. The huge orange painted metal cradle the RIB sat in nearly struck the side of her vessel after it separated from RIB.
I did think one day that I was the instigator of my own demise when we dropped the Muirhill earth mover on a HSP platform. On my "green on" the loadie said "extractor released" then nothing. An eternity later the chutes deployed and the 40,000 lb bulldozer sat obstinately where it was. The Herc pitched up and the ASI unwound from it's dangerously slow airspeed to just above brisk taxying speed. The pilot had the yoke forward against the instrument panel and the co-pilot had advanced the throttles to the same position. Then like suddenly being unconstipated the load went from nought to 125kts out the back in a cloud of detritus. The nose pitched down, I left the floor and the 4 Allisons were determined to put us in a small hole in Salisbury plain. We were also unconstipated and swore that if they wanted this thing in Europe they should send it by Fred Olsen.

[ancientaviator62]

Doug,
if you were dropping the Muirhill it would have been a seven parachute set of 66's. Having dropped something similar it was not unknown for a rig with that number of main chutes to leave the a/c a little later than advertised. I was told that this was due to the large chutes fighting for position in a fairly restricted area. They usually got things sorted out BEFORE the de-reefing mechanism kicked in. In your case it sounds almost like they were starting to de-reef with the load still firmly in place !

[Brian W May]

Christ that made me shudder and I'm sat safely in my armchair !!

Double MSPs were exciting enough for me thanks . . .

[overstress]

To answer the OP, no, not so far in 16,500hrs military and civil.

[Pontius Navigator]

Basil, with you on the near air miss, Russian May rolled in to us at 400 ft. He pushed, we pulled. As you say, over before your sphincter operates. The operator kept the camera running and the Russian copilot had his hand up.

[Pontius Navigator]

JEM60, my wg cdr ops was in a 16 ship Javelin formation when they met a 24 ship Hunter formation. Quick as a flash the Hunter leader called You Break Left, we'll break right.

[Fonsini]

Sorry if this is a daft question, but why wasn't turning away an option?
If he had turned to port he would have hit the other sub - the passive bearing is not that precise, and you don't know how close he is to you and how much time you would have to clear datum - at least for that sensor era.

By PM request, here is my (his) Admiral Rickover story. I'm a straight shooter, and my relative is a straight shooter - so for me this dit is gospel, but please make up your own mind (I actually have 2 stories, but this is my pick of them).

Back in those days Rickover would testify to Congress that he had personally interviewed every reactor officer in the fleet, and could therefore personally attest to their competence. It is perhaps worth noting that the US Navy has a record of reactor safety that is pretty much unparalleled. For the purposes of this story let's call my relative Dave, as it also happens to be his name.

Came the day for Dave's interview with Rickover as a very young, and prospective, reactor officer. Rickover simply asked him about his schooling and education, focusing on which college he went to, and that was that, Dave got a straight pass. He walked out wondering what all the fuss had been about, this had been a breeze - it was to be the second guy who caught Rickover's attention. Rickover started out by asking him if he was married and he replied that he was not, but that he was engaged to be married, "well I don't agree with my reactor officers being married, what if I told you that your appointment was contingent on you breaking off your engagement?" the young officer replied that he would break off the engagement, hoping that it would satisfy Rickover, but apparently it didn't. Rickover paused for a moment and then handed the phone to the candidate - "Call her now" he said, and the young officer did just that, calling his fiancee at work and telling her that the engagement was over. On putting the phone down with a sobbing girl on the other end Rickover turned to him and said:

"Any man who would treat a young woman in that way has no place as a reactor officer in one of my boats, now GET OUT !"

True story.

[Herod]

OK, I'm ex military, so I can be on this site, but this is a civil story. It was a very bad weekend for icing conditions in the north of England. A Shorts 3-60 came down in a field just short of East Midlands through icing. 48 hours later, another Shorts (me) got airborne from Leeds for Belfast. When the machine stopped climbing, despite still having T/O power set, we initiated an emergency diversion to Manchester. I sat there, watching the airspeed decay and realising that at the same time the stall speed was increasing due to the spoiling of the aerodynamics. At some point these speeds were going to coincide. We crossed the threshold at Manchester with the throttles firewalled. I suffered alopecia nervosa for several months afterwards.

[ImageGear]

Had a few scary moments (Tromso, Albert, not flying), and in the civvy world, passing between a farmhouse and a barn at 50' doing a conversion after a misjudged EFTO almost had us in the weeds.

But you guys are making me shiver here.

Imagegear.

[ancientaviator62]

I have had three 'close encounters' with other a/c which have already been related on the Hercules thread.

[Wander00]

Well, there was the Lighting climbing vertically that shot out of the cloud tops about 500 ft in front of my Canberra, and the time I lined up on the Watton High Street lights after breaking out of a low cloud base, and landing off an ILS well below my BOH because the whole of UK was out in fog, and.....

[Fantome]

This is pretty lame alongside much of the foregoing, but many years ago while ferrying a DH89 ( a 1940 British twin engined biplane) , cruising along on a bright summers day at about 800 feet agl , both engines suddenly quit at the same moment. Stuffing the nose down immediately revealed a beautiful big paddock with no trees to speak of at the nearer end. Before you could count to ten the old girl was on the ground, stopped , without a scratch or a bingle.

There was still an hours fuel in one tank. Due to an antiquated and not easy to select precisely arrangement of fuel selectors, it was possible to inadvertently select cross feed. Both engines had been running off one tank which had not been obvious. That the unreliable Lucas gauges were in an awkward place right behind the drivers seat, only compounded the problem. FATE IS THE HUNTER !

[sharpend]

Interesting question and quite typical of human nature: I was once seriously injured, totally blind and the only pilot in the aeroplane. Was I worried? No. Just did my job. The adrenalin took over. There are also many cases of people doing very dangerous jobs; FJs or F1 racing drivers, who worry heaps before the race/flight, but once busy get on with the job.

[ShyTorque]

Many "moments".

A very near miss with an overtaking Jaguar whilst flying a Puma at very low level; the sky went very briefly dark as it overflew us. We only saw it as it appeared from our 6 o'clock to our twelve o'clock. Not only did we hear it but at the same time its down-wash hit us and we smelled its exhaust fumes. There must have been about ten metres of (vertical only) separation.

A more recent one: Flying a civvie helicopter in solid IMC and in torrential rain over mountainous terrain, knowing that the extensive cloud extended well below "deck" level below us (down to 300' amsl as it turned out at the coast) when the amber flashers and tail rotor chip light illuminated. The checklist drills (operating the "fuzz burner" switch) didn't make it go out. There were no other symptoms of an impending tail rotor gearbox failure so the only option was to carry on and hope it was a spurious caption. Thankfully, it was and it went out all by itself (water ingress into the connecting plug). But anyway, it caused a very worrying few minutes.

[langleybaston]

Scary stuff.

As [unwilling] SLF, terrified of flying, I have a dozen "moments" every flight, but it goes with the body and brain that I am lumbered with.

However, as a car driver I have come to the conclusion that, on our busy British roads, it is well-nigh impossible to drive 100 miles without either participating in a "moment" of varying hairiness, or witnessing one such. My driving is conservative, risk aware and defensive, as appropriate for someone with near 60 years experience in cities, all over Europe, Australia and NZ who knows that his eyesight, reflexes and reactions are not what they used to be.

But it is indeed a risky environment. I am reminded of: "I want to die in my sleep, like my Grandpa, not screaming with terror like his passengers!"

Keep the moments coming please!

[Fonsini]

Langley makes a good point, I always feel a lot safer in the jet that flies me to the UK than the rental car I climb into on arrival.

I always send my family one last message of love before climbing into any helicopter however.....sorry helopilots, you have my undying admiration for climbing into those contraptions.

What on earth is a "fuzz burner" by the way ??

[MPN11]

langleybaston ... With similar attitudes to driving, I have done, on numerous occasions, picking up a strange rental car at Washington/Dulles and found myself on the Washington Beltway ... with up to 12 lanes of 2-way traffic and being 'forced' to do 75 in a 55 limit to keep safe. My wife just closes her eyes and prays. It's not fun after a trans-Atlantic flight, and the usual US Immigration nausea, but I've got used to it over the year.

[Tengah Type]

Anson gently trundleing from Finningley to Mildenhall at 3500 ft in and out of cloud
when a JP, in descent, flashes across the nose at about 50ft, close enough to see the
colour of the pilots bone domes.

Canberra on an army co-operatation exercise in Borneo when the FAC's Corporal decides to fire a smoke mortar to assist us. It passes close enough to the nose to see
the mortar round before a split second later we flew throught the smoke trail.

Victor Tanker with a Bear D to the west of Ireland when my captain, unwisely, decides to fly in the refuelling position close line astern of the Bear. Bear duely drops
a sonobouy. We can read the lettering on it and it probably passed between the fuselage and the tailplane.

VC10 refuelling Leuchars F4s on an exercise when one decides to show off on
departing the tanker by leaving in full burner across the nose of the tanker. About 100 ft in front of the tanker which has another chick plugged in!!

[ShyTorque]

What on earth is a "fuzz burner" by the way ??

It's one name for a system basically consisting of a condenser which can supply a burst of very high voltage, designed to burn off a thin sliver of metal "fuzz" which might be bridging the contacts of the chip detector plug, causing the warning light to come on. The usual advice is that flight may be continued if the warning light goes out.

Systems vary, but some allow a couple of attempts to burn off the chip. If it doesn't work, the chip might be something big enough to have a part number on it! If the light stays on, it's worrying at the best of times, even in VMC; the normal course of action would be to look for an emergency landing area.

[twothree]

Meandering through the glens of Northern Scotland in a F4 (so a while ago). In the weeds doing about 450 knots or there-abouts, I roll on just over 90 degrees starboard and pull probably 4 gs or so to navigate around the side of a hill. A fly suddenly appears in my view, which very, very quickly becomes a bird, and then a Harrier!!. He is heading the other way round the hill in a hard port turn. We pass I suspect within 20 feet. I comment to my backseater, "Did you see that?" "See what he says." "Nevermind" I say.
Still cannot get it out of my mind!! So, say after me.. fly....bird....Harrier. And again but REALLY fast. Get it!!!!

[twothree]

Another one!
Same F4 type and have visited an airfield in the Lincolnshire area from the base at Leuchars.
On the way home as the weather is perfect, I decide to pop down into the Vale of York, just to show the backseater where I, along with hundred other students in training used to get airborne on a day like this for our solo exercise in JPs out of Leeming, Linton-on Ouse, Topcliffe etc. AND this day, there were lots of JPs being thrown around the sky, all within a very small area, and I realised that if they were like me and my fellow students in those days, we very rarely saw another aircraft when airborne doing our thing. And so, having avoided about 3 of them who I am sure didn't even see me, I decided to go vertical and depart, before I was a witness to a collision between a couple of makey-learners and/or myself and had to fill out some paperwork. Frightening to realise some 8 years previous how little we had appreciated what was happening around us.

[SASless]

I managed to give myself several "Moments" over the Years.

A few stick out from the rest.

In a Land Far Away during Interesting Times....had the Ears laid back on a Chinook with her Rotor Blades perpendicular to the dirt road....rounding a curve....Clouds right down on top of the Rubber Trees and me doing my thing in the 200 Meter wide swath of cleared ground with the track in the middle.

As I rounded the curve going Westerly....around the curve going Easterly was my Room Mate in his Chinook going as fast as I was.

He pulled...I pushed...and we passed one another with not a lot of clearance...both of us still laid over on our sides.

I keyed the Mike and said...."Crapsakes John....the least you could do is wave as you went by!".

His reply was short and blunt....something about me doing a solo sex act.




Doing the Army IMC Let Down Procedure over a Special Forces Camp with a nice PSP Runway and C-130 Turn Around Pad.....which means we were VFR on Top and had found a hole that had Green at the bottom of it.

Just as I got slowed down and began to roll into a very slow steep spiraling descent inside the Well like shaft of clear air.....not a hundred feet below me slices the left wing, outboard engine, and tip of an external fuel tank of a C-130 through the part of the hole I was about to fall into.



Last one....IMC from the Shetlands headed to the Ninian.

Just happened to look out the windscreen in time to see a British Airways S-61 pass by at the same height going the opposite way. One of the Pilots had on his BA issued Wool Jumper and Necktie....the other guy had on a Mustang Floater Jacket with white shirt and no Necktie.

Neither them or my Co-Pilot were any the wiser!

People wonder why I drink!

[nipva]

That very brief 'moment' between the sudden decision to eject and pulling the handle!

[Monarch Man]

Had 11 rather uneventful (compared to some here) years as a servant of HM flying types previously mentioned, I attempted at various stages at a certain OCU to break myself and the aeroplane but through a combination of exceptionally good luck and ignorance I triumphantly managed to avoid both outcomes with little more than a sheepish grin and a sweaty forehead.....no PTSD for me, no thank you...or so I thought!
Fast forward another few years, civvy street flying now, first command B757 on our way to BGR mid pond (about 30W), just beginning to imagine that first tasty Canadian beer.
A slight whiff of burning plastic that rapidly turns into an over-powering eye watering fume filled coughing fit....mask midway to my face when suddenly blackness and a gritty feeling in my eyes....oh s**t.
15 seconds later....it's as if nothing happened, apart from a fine charcoal like layer in parts..and yours truly and his FO looking like we've just done an hour in a Sopwith Camel given our goggle marks.
A recirc fan bearing had let go at umpteen thousands of RPM...showering us with 10 years worth of detritus and plastic......good thing the seat cover was brown is all I'm gonna say.

[ShyTorque]

During a field deployment exercise during the Cold War, I returned to our flight's refuelling point in a German farmer's field for a rotors running refuel. I'd already refuelled there before that morning. As we approached the bowser in the hover and at an altitude of about ten feet, it all got very exciting. The driver had "cammed up" his vehicle by laying a large sheet of black hessian (probably 10 by 8 feet) across the windscreen and trapping it in the cab doors. Unfortunately, rather than fool the Warsaw Pact army, he had done it so he could sit inside the cab and sleep. He woke up with a start and threw open the driver's door, whereupon the hessian flew free and got sucked straight into the middle of our main rotors, where it hung up on a blade. The rotors immediately went out of balance in a massive way and the aircraft out of control (the cyclic stick was stirring me around the cockpit, rather than the other way round) and Sod's law said that the aircraft moved closer to the bowser so that the main rotors were now right above it. The next few seconds were very exciting indeed but thankfully the hessian worked its way to the end of the blade, where it flew up again then recirculated back into the disc a second time but this time near the tips, where it was shredded into small pieces. I did manage to regain control and move clear and immediately landed and shut down. The leading edge strips of the main rotor blades were imprinted with a back hessian pattern, the dye had been forced out from the impact.

Thankfully the aircraft was undamaged and after an extra strong mug of NAAFI tea and a sincere apology from the bowser driver we were sent on our way to carry on with the task.

[Fareastdriver]

I flew for forty eight years both in the military and civil.

I cannot remember a moment of concern.

Mind you; I cannot remember others things either.

[5aday]

Northbound from Sao Paolo to Gatwick and in Sal (Cape Verde) area. Cleared to climb to FL350 and contact Canaries on HF. All done OK.
Southbound VARIG 767 same track reported to Canaries on VHF at northern
point of Canaries airspace a few minutes before. The Canaries controller did not pick up the fact we were both on reciprocal tracks at the same level. I was in the left seat, the other co-pilot was in the toilet and the skipper was fast asleep. Massive bang as we passed each other but in reality I could not tell you what sort of aeroplane it was as it passed so close.. When I got home I couldn't really communicate with anyone for a couple of days. My wife described me as very grey. The other co-pilot spoke fluent Spanish and managed to get as many names and compounding various tapes.
BA Fight Safety sat on the reports for some unknown reason and I saw the Fleet Captain (Smith) to ask why nothing was ever published. His reply was Varig had published a report and that was enough. The Freemason set up in BA management has some strange ways about it.

[Pontius Navigator]

One of my jobs was to help identify or eliminate one of our aircraft as the other aircraft in a near miss. What amazed me was that every potential crew could give me their precise position for the incident time even days later.

One such incident was an airmiss at night during a major air defence exercise when a window of a light twin was sucked out as it flew at lower levels on the Blue way. One of our F3 was in the frame. They were able to day that it was their target that had the airmiss. It was certainly a sheer terror moment for the civvy, I don't think the other knew.

[Pontius Navigator]

Back in the 70s we were in a bomber stream exercise flying identical routes out of Cyprus at 10 minute intervals.

We were night IMC at 430 and approaching the first time point on a celestial navigation leg. We had been given two timing options - adjust speed or do a timing trombone.

Our nav plotter decided to keep the speed up, time in hand, and lose the extra time in the trombone. Unknown to us the preceding crew elected speed adjustment.

We were only alerted as we heard him. Our IMC had been his contrails. That was scary.

[Trim Stab]

Most aviation scares are very brief - they are over very quickly one way or another. Contrast that with some other activities (sailing springs to mind) where extremely frightening "moments" can last for days on end.

[Trim Stab]

We were night IMC at 430

I would have thought you might have guessed something was amiss?

[Lancman]

Two Nimrods and a P3 observing the passage of Russian Naval units well out to the west of the UK. The captain of the other Nimrod, a Wing Commander, had a group of journalists on board and he suggested that we formate on the P3 so that his passengers could get some photographs of the two of us with the Russians in the background. I knew that the captain with whom I was flying was a very capable pilot but I recognised a potentially dangerous situation when I saw one, unplanned, unbriefed, unpracticed formation of two different aircraft types. So I concentrated my attention inside the flight deck while both the pilots were looking outside. We joined on the P3's starboard side partially astern and slowed to his patrol speed. The pair of us flew down one side of the Russians, the P3 between us and the ships, and started a 180* port turn to fly past on the other side. About ¾ round the turn the captain called “Speed check”. The P3 had lost a little speed in the turn and the Nimrod was beginning to feel a bit sloppy. No reply from the co-pilot. The captain called “Speed check” a second time and got no reply so I slid my seat forward and turned so that I could see an A.S.I. Three things then happened almost simultaneously. The captain looked down, so I looked up, and the P3 rolled out of his turn. I remember changing my shout from “Look out” to “Look up” just before the tail of the P3 passed above our flight deck at a distance of less than 10 feet. We broke downwards and sat quiet for quite some time. Nothing was said because there was nothing to be said.

[Pontius Navigator]

Lancman, I was in Ops and 'twas Win Harris who had wanted the picture of the Nimrod over Kiev. I thought a Bear joined in.

TS, as I was down the back and using the sun gun OK I didnt know we were IM.

[Pontius Navigator]

Lancman, your name reminded me.

1. We were holding low level, and I mean low, over North Hykeham in the Lanc in turbulence. I was in the astro dome. The Lanc went down and I went up and the dome disappeared. I wandered up the front and tapped Dad Stanley on the shoulder. He turn round and saw my face covered in blood.

2. Dad was leading a mixed formation Spit, Lanc, Hurri as a three ship over Farnborough. It had been a kneepad brief and no practice. We flew so low over the hangar where the French Atlantic had gone in the day before that the Hurri almost joined it.

3. Rush trip for a display and no FE. I was instructed to balance the fuel. Back at base we were then asked to do a take off and circuit for TV csamneras. As we rolled we got a fuel low light. Moments later we got a second. Dad simply said switch the tanks. Only one cock was labelled and he had given me duff gen pre flight.

4. Worst, Dad was checking out the new staish, Mike D'Arcy. Dad taxied, lined up, took off, circuit, landed, taxied, lined up, and Mike D took the seat for the first time. Applied full power and we departed the runway just beyond the ORP, he gave a boot of rudder and after rejoining the concrete we departed the other side before snaking back and getting airborne. Finally, under control, we landed. The tyre were worn across the treads.

[Lancman]

PN, there was other traffic around, and I deliberately avoided naming names.
First rule for Lancaster Flight Engineers "On take-off, Lead with the Left". Unless you've got Hercules engines.

[Wander00]

PN - now there is an interesting guy. Boss and I tried to explain the flaws in the "sell off Wyton airfield" investment appraisal - had the black spot thereafter

[Pontius Navigator]

Lancman, oh, maybe he was right then as he had told me cocks left then cocks right. I had thought, much later, it was outboard inboard with cocks rotated out or in.

Names, innocent station cdrs are I think fair game, and Dad is well known and I think liked.

PN, I can guess which one I named. You could never win.

[SimonK]

Was given a demo of incipient Vortex Ring in a Puma by 'Parts' when I was on 230. Unfortunately it was actually an extremely successful demonstration of fully developed and almost unrecoverable Vortex Ring. I've met no end of people who have since told me that you can't get a Puma into VR and it's really easy to get out. Bolleaux.

We entered incipient Vortex Ring, 6500' at night with the town of Coleraine on our right...as advertised the aircraft got all wallowy, but as Parts started to recover the ROD went through 800' and then instantly pegged fully down at 2500'.....I'm not sure exactly how much nose down we got to, but it felt like 90 degrees. All I know is we pitched instantly and massively fully forward and I was reading the bottom of the AH. I seem to remember just gripping the seat like a vice and thinking that I was dead. As we hit nose down the aircraft also rolled fully 180 degrees. Some other stuff happened and eventually parts got it out.....we came out at 1800', with 30 knots ias, still about 700' rod and the world all skewiff. Coleraine was also on our left hand side now. It was the last demo of incipient VR in the aircraft :D

[Skeleton]

Highland Restricted Area before the flow arrows had been thought of in the back seat of a Jaguar T2. Roll and bunt over a hill into the valley below and a Buccaneer flashed by left to right and very close!! I kept him in sight and informed my driver of his departing engine exhausts. "Never mind him, Buccs fly in formation, look for his mates" from the front seat followed by a "**** this" and a low level abort told me he had found his mate(s) i just didn't see them!

[Fonsini]

So many lessons to be learned from these experiences.

Someone referenced the 1968 Atlantique crash at Farnborough earlier in the thread and sadly for those airmen their moment was tragically their last. For anyone not familiar:

Following a last minute re-assignment of the PIC, which is rarely a good thing. The aircraft was performing a low level display which included a single engine (feathered) pass with the port engine shut down. The gear was left down (which was unbriefed) and the a/c entered a low level 25 degree bank to starboard at which time the port prop was unfeathered. The aircraft then gently rolled to port at which time the roll was seen to rapidly increase to 60 degrees and the aircraft impacted some hangars. All 5 crew were lost plus one RAE technician on the ground (and a dog, rarely mentioned).

One little known fact is that the French crew had earlier been in the RAE Library where they spent some time chatting up the young ladies who worked there, convincing them to come up on the display flight with them the next day. They were saved by their boss who told them they were there to work, not go on joy rides.

[Arclite01]

PN is Mike D'Arcy the same Mike D'Arcy who was on Harriers ??

Arc

[ShyTorque]

Was given a demo of incipient Vortex Ring in a Puma by 'Parts' when I was on 230. Unfortunately it was actually an extremely successful demonstration of fully developed and almost unrecoverable Vortex Ring. I've met no end of people who have since told me that you can't get a Puma into VR and it's really easy to get out. Bolleaux.

We entered incipient Vortex Ring, 6500' at night with the town of Coleraine on our right...as advertised the aircraft got all wallowy, but as Parts started to recover the ROD went through 800' and then instantly pegged fully down at 2500'.....I'm not sure exactly how much nose down we got to, but it felt like 90 degrees. All I know is we pitched instantly and massively fully forward and I was reading the bottom of the AH. I seem to remember just gripping the seat like a vice and thinking that I was dead. As we hit nose down the aircraft also rolled fully 180 degrees. Some other stuff happened and eventually parts got it out.....we came out at 1800', with 30 knots ias, still about 700' rod and the world all skewiff. Coleraine was also on our left hand side now. It was the last demo of incipient VR in the aircraft :D

I'm not sure why it was being demo'd in the first place, because it certainly wasn't in any formal training syllabus for the Puma that I recall (in three Puma tours, two of them as an OCU QHI and one as OC Puma sim). Having said that, I concur totally that the aircraft will go into fully developed VR and very alarmingly so. The one occasion I experienced it was a similar story to yours, but over Forkhill, inadvertent and not me flying.

[Haraka]

Supervised the external and internal ground Puma on it's ear photography for the Board : post arrival near Forkhill in 1975, of M... T.... and his illustrious (now sadly deceased) Co Pilot G..... B...... . Vortex Ring was involved IIRC.

[Pontius Navigator]

Arclite, sadly no. You prompted me to look up his bio. He had been OC 1 ITS when I joined before being OC 44 and later OC Waddo. What saddened me was to see he died as an Air Cdre aged just 50, a real gent.

[Treble one]

Despite my paucity of Military Flying I do consider I have had a bit of a moment...

I was awarded a 'good boy' AEF flight in a Sea King at RAF Boulmer as an ATC cadet.

The pilots were practicing instrument flying and all was going smoothly-towards the end of my flight I was invited up front by the pilot as we were doing a 'fly by' down the runway at a well known civil airport.

I was 'plugged in' and merrily chatting away to said pilot, when an urgent call came for us to 'vacate the runway as we've got something coming in on finals' (or similar).

This resulted in a 'hang on' and a left wing over with yours truly hanging onto both poles either side of said pilots.

I'm sure not especially dangerous or exciting in the grand scheme of thing already told on here, but pretty exciting to a 14 yo Air cadet who wanted to be a Fighter Pilot at the time....

[Danny42C]

Had one of mine when pulling away (alone) from a photographic run over a target in Burma my Flight had just bombed, my gunner piped up: "there's a radial - engined fighter about two miles behind us !"

Another was when, downwind, wheels down with full bomb load and fuel, the engine seized ! (Vultee Vengeances went down like a stone when power failed - no hope of "dead-sticking" it on the strip).

We survived, but left a pile of scrap spread along a half-mile of Arakan open jungle.

[Pontius Navigator]

my gunner piped up: "there's a radial - engined fighter about two miles behind us
And then? .

[MPN11]

I'm just surprised that Danny only lists 2. I would have thought he could have filled a Thread on his own ;)

[Megaton]

Years ago I organised a cocktail party in the US to thank our hosts for their continuing hospitality and support. I can't remember on which day the event was held but the only joint UK-US operation which occurred on that day was a ground attack mission on or around Arakan. I wonder if Danny was involved?

[Danny42C]

Pontius Navigator (#79),

Rest of story told on "Pilot's Brevet", Pqge 135, #2692 et seq. Enjoy !

''''''''''''''''''''''''

MPN11 (#80),

Well, I suppose the night I woke thinking I'd a tiger under my 'charpoy' (arching his back to scratch iit against the rough coconut fibre string) would qualify - (then came to fully to realise it was only an earthquake).

Story same page, #2684.

Cheers, both, Danny.

PS: Not flying, though ! (sorry, chaps - the flying is often the safe part !)

D.

[Fareastdriver]

Vortex Ring was involved IIRC

I thought something else was involved but I will ask M... T.... next month when he's pi###d.

Edited to add.
I eventually went to Wastelands at Weston Super Mare to pick up XW 216, complete with a brand new lower airframe assembly, and flew it back to Odiham. The F700 hadn't been completed since it acceptance in Aldergrove so I wrote in the post flight section.

'Severe vibration on landing but it cleared on the next flight.'

[Danny42C]

Megaton (#81),
....Years ago I organised a cocktail party in the US to thank our hosts for their continuing hospitality and support. I can't remember on which day the event was held but the only joint UK-US operation which occurred on that day was a ground attack mission on or around Arakan. I wonder if Danny was involved? ... Was never involved with any air operation with the US, but "Search this Thread has turned up:

(Extract from "Pilot's Brevet" Thread Page 161, my #3204):


"BBC - WW2 People's War - Army Days" (which I have mentioned a few Posts ago, lost, and which Union Jack has kindly found again for me) contains a gripping account by an infantryman (Percy Bowpitt) of his time in India and Burma.
...In our southward push after the break-out from Imphal - Kohima, the Jap reverted to the dig-in-and-hold tactic he always used in retreat. On one occasion, Percy recounts how his unit was held up in an advance over an old rifle range. The Jap was well dug-in in the butts at the far end, a frontal attack over the open range would have been very expensive.

They called in an air strike. First, a pair of US Lockheed "Lightnings" turned up, assessed the situation, chose the wrong end and (in all good faith) shot-up Percy and his pals. (Why weren't they marking the target with a mortar smoke bomb, surely the Army would have them ?) Fortunately, the Lightnings' aim was so poor that they only killed a couple of mules.

Hurricane IICs did better next time, at least they attacked the right way, but their bombs would be far less accurate than ours, they'd only carry two apiece, and, entering at a much shallower angle than ours, much of the blast would be harmlessly up into the air. Dug-in, Johnnie Jap kept his head down and laughed at the cannon....
I sighed on reading this: a "box" of VVs would have removed the butts in toto and everything in them "in one fell swoop". Sadly, they'd been pensioned off by then. EDIT : * Provided it was late enough in the year for dive bombing - Wiki says Imphal/Kohima finished end of June '44. (Percy is not good on dates).

This is the only thing I could find which is vaguely relevant. And it implies that the incident took place in Manipur, well North of the Arakan. In any case I was hors de combat from 24th February, 1944, when my last 'op' came to a sticky end. When I came back from hospital, it was all over with the Vengeance - all the squadrons had been pulled off and would never return (with VVs, that is).

Sorry, Megaton, but can't help.

Danny.

[Four Turbo]

OK. My worst moment in 50 years of flying! In a Canberra low level over the sea in transit from one photo run to a new target. Viz going down, below 8/8 cover at 1000ft and below controlled airspace. So kept down to maintain surface contact. Asked nav about obstructions. 'Only land in about 50 miles' he says. Shortly to be followed by a lighthouse passing close to the port wingtip! I can still see it.

[Danny42C]

Not me, but when I was on refresher training at Weston Zoyland in '54, a chap came out of low scud and bounced a Meteor off the Quantocks - and flew back home with it ! (I reckon that would be the Moment to end all Moments).

Danny.

[KenV]

The scaredest I've been (is that a word?) was a Case 3 night approach onto a heaving deck in an A-4 with low fuel and no bingo field. First pass was a bolter, as was the 2nd. Then trying to tank in the dark in turbulence. It took several attempts to finally hit the basket. By the end of the refueling I was a basket case, completely unnerved and certain I'd never get aboard. That was definitely the worst moment in my life.

[BEagle]

Danny42C wrote: ...when I was on refresher training at Weston Zoyland in '54, a chap came out of low scud and bounced a Meteor off the Quantocks

Around about then as a small child I well remember that pile of silver painted aluminium at Weston Zoyland, which was the 'crash compound' - full of bits of pranged aircraft.

Didn't put me off wanting to become a pilot though!

[SASless]

KenV, Having flown off Ships in a helicopter....I can appreciate your account!

That is why you guys had Gold Wings!

It is one thing to cross the deck edge at Five Knots as compared to how fast you were traveling. On the other hand....shrinking that deck to just slightly bigger than the aircraft and greatly exaggerating the movement of said Deck also provided some sportiness to it as well.

It does get dark out there....and as the options decrease towards....none....the stress level does increase slightly.

While sat on the Landing Pad of a Crane Ship wallowing its way through the North Sea one ugly night....with the Landing Gear Oleo's bottoming out as the ship rolled and heaved....and the aircraft sliding about across the rope netting....had I been able to shut down and quit the job....I would have. The thought of picking up off that deck into the dark...while over a hundred miles from shore....was daunting.

What amazed me was as soon as we did....and were back into our element....it almost seemed like it was a boring trip back ashore....never mind the ice, snow, and high seas.

A Flying Career without some "Moments" must be very dull.....and those "moments" make for some good yarns....Afterwards!

[Fareastdriver]

SASless: Years ago you posted a picture of, I believe, your CH47 which had been redecorated around your nether regions with an RPG7 and the paintwork was also slightly off colour.

Could you post it again or am I mistaken and it wasn't yours.

[SASless]

Yes Old Fella....I did post a photo of a Chinook that took a bit of remodeling caused by a .51 Caliber MG hit in the cockpit that generated a bit of excitement for a while. It provided me a pretty good tale about how Emergency Checklists are not able to address all situations and completely ignoring the thing can be excused when you present your defense to those critical of your actions ...and a real appreciation of the value of Nomex Clothing .

Let's see if I can dig them up.

[salad-dodger]

FFS PN, it's a did you have moment thread, not bore us to death with your old effing war stories thread. We've already read them countless times on othe threads fella.

S-D

[SASless]

Scroll button inoperative?

[Danny42C]

salad-dodger (#92),

Quite uncalled for ! If your date of birth is as stated on your "Profile" here, then it is entirely apt.

Danny42C

[Pontius Navigator]

How about the time Geoff Hoon (the buffoon and Sec Def) asked why there were chains on the cockpit floor in the Herc, or some such. I hear he went white when they told him.

SD, glad your feeing better.

[Always a Sapper]

Gent's

Now available... NSN 8445-01-026-5311 :E

[ancientaviator62]

PN,
the chains used to be coiled up on the seat cushions in the hope that they would provided some protection from small arms fire and shrapnel to the crown jewels and other tender parts.

[Pontius Navigator]

AA, ty, can you confirm the GH story?

[SASless]

Some Vietnam helicopter pilots wore the hand guns swung around to between their legs in the thought that would offer some protection. Some placed the old style soft Flak Jackets in the chin bubble thinking the same.

On our Chinooks we added half inch Steel plate to the Jettisonable doors on each side of the cockpit. We salvaged armored pilot seats for our gunners use and added a steel plate at the rear of the cargo hatch for our Flight Engineer to lay on while monitoring the under-slung load.

[topgas]

Certainly, escorting a stretcher case from Shaibah to Arifjan for a CT scan in 2004 in a Puma, we put spare body armour under he stretcher. On the way back, I did wonder if I should be sitting on mine rather than wearing it.

[Dan Winterland]

Two very close near collisions in 3 days. First was on a Wednesday with a Harrier in LFA 4, I estimated the distance at 10 metres. I spoke to the Harrier pilot after landing, he hadn't even seen our aircraft. The second, on a Friday when I was nearly rammed by my student in a tail-chase. Again, about 10m and again, he hadn't seen me. It made me wonder how many near collisions have occurred with no-one realising.

I drank a lot of beer that happy hour!

[ancientaviator62]

PN,
I cannot confirm the Hoon story but it could well stand for any of the various ministers we have had the 'pleasure' to carry in the Hercules. My exception to these was Linda Chalker as I have mentioned on the Hercules thread.

[SASless]

Then there was the Wessex pilot who had a very quick moment with a Harrier in cloud...where the tail wheel of the Wessex and the tail of the Harrier made contact. Two of the luckiest guys on Earth!

[pettinger93]

Though not military, has anyone seen the air collision reported on the latest AAIB report (March)? Two light aircraft failed to see each other until they actually hit. The tyre of one was damaged by putting a crease across the upper surface of the others wing while the propeller tips of one of the aircraft were nicked. Otherwise no damage at all, and both landed safely. Hard to see how they could have got closer and survived.

[Danny42C]

...
PN, Always a Sapper, ancientaviator62, SASless, and topgas,

This is the first time I've heard this particular story, and can well see the point of it (no pun intended). It was the medieval chainmail idea brought up to date - what was the size of the chain, and was it effective ? We had armour plate behind us (Vengeance, Spitfire, Hurricane and P-47 (?), but none below - and were all too conscious of the fact,as we often took small round hits from below in the Vengeance. :eek:

This seems an abominately uncomfortable solution to the problem ! Surely you would put the chains out of sight underneath a thick cushion ? The "K" pilot dinghies we sat on when flying over water were bad enough, as the metal inflation bottle was packed on top where it inflicted maximum discomfort on a (male) wearer. As the parachute leg straps were just long enough to go through both the dinghy and the parachute seat cushion openings, it was possible to get relief that way, but you were wobbling about on top rather unsteadily. :*

The obvious answer was a 3/8 armoured steel plate below the seat, but I don't think one was ever designed, Pity.

Danny.

[Fareastdriver]

I believe that the Me 109 pilots flew around sitting on the fuel tank.

[MightyGem]

Then there was the Wessex pilot who had a very quick moment with a Harrier in cloud...where the tail wheel of the Wessex and the tail of the Harrier made contact. Two of the luckiest guys on Earth!
Then there was the Police Helicopter that had it's anti coll removed by a FJ a few years back.

[Pontius Navigator]

Danny, don't know, do know one of our instructors said he used a battle bowler

[Danny42C]

PN,

Not a bad idea, but it would be uncomfortable (dome up) or .you'd be unstable (dome down). Now if you could get it under the seat .....

We reckoned that there was a good chance of the tightly folded silk in our parachute packs stopping a small arms round.

Nobody got shot in the bum, anyway.

Danny.

[Herod]

Wessex in Aden in '67 had an piece of armour plating below the Captain's seat. If you were flying as co-pilot you had a choice of wear your flak-jacket or sit on it.

[ancientaviator62]

Danny,
the chains were the a/c standard 10000lb tie down chains. My previous reply was less than precise. They were laid on the seat pan usually and the cushions were placed on top. It was hope that anything that got through the chains would be further retarded by the thick uncomfortable cushion.
For a long time it was the only 'protection' we had. When 'flak' vests became available you then had the choice of wearing it or sitting on it a la the chains.
Or you could use the chains and the vest.

[Pontius Navigator]

AA, I thought it was quite robust chain, for the uninitiated can you say what sort of size the links were?

For the purists, did you recalculate weight and balance or use TLAR?

[ancientaviator62]

PN,
I do not have a 'souvenir' chain from my time on the Hercules but a diminished memory suggests the links may have been approx two inches long. But I am happy to be corrected. We did not adjust the W and B for the redistribution of said chains. When they were used for tying down cargo the redistribution of the chains was not taken into account as the C of G tolerances of the mighty Hercules were more than sufficient to cope with such a small change.
We also had 5000lb chains on the a/c and there was a school of thought that with the links being smaller they might be a better protective bet !

[NutLoose]

We reckoned that there was a good chance of the tightly folded silk in our parachute packs stopping a small arms round.Possibly would Danny, there was a programme on recently about WW1 and they were discussing the killing of Archduke Franz Ferdinand, he and his good lady had in their possession an early form of bullet proof jacket that was made of silk, however they were not wearing it, the programme did tests on one built to the exact design and firing the weapon used to kill him, and it did indeed stop the bulet from penetrating.

see

https://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/2014/jul/29/bulletproof-silk-vest-prevent-first-world-war-royal-armouries

[KG86]

One of my 'moments':

Instructing on Wessex, we were conducting a low level navex to the South of Shawbury. We had crossed into a neighbouring LFA and, at that time, had to climb to 250 ft agl. This stupidly put us firmly into fast jet territory.

Everything was going smoothly, and I was relaxed in the LHS. I suddenly caught a movement in my right peripheral vision. I looked right, and all I could see was wall-to-wall Harrier. It went abut 5 ft over the top of us, and I heard and felt it.

A split second later I heard a machine-gun sound and felt sudden vibration. My student (D..... W.....) had dumped the collective lever and pulled full aft cyclic. He was hitting the droop stops! I immediately took control, gingerly exercising the controls to assess whether we still had a tail rotor. We had and, after DW had composed himself, we carried on with the sortie.

[Herod]

Helicopter/FJ interaction. Two Wessex, and a Hunter trying to catch them out. Wessex decide to hide behind a hedge. This worked well, until a Pawnee crop-sprayer decided to take a look at us. Pawnee coming up on the starboard side, the opposite side of the hedge. Hunter approaching from three o'clock. No common frequency. I had visions of the Hunter hitting the Pawnee, and the wreckage falling on two rotors-running Wessex. Luckily the Hunter pilot saw the Pawnee at the last moment, and avoided him. We met a very white-faced Hunter pilot in the crewroom later.

[Pontius Navigator]

Nutty, I thought he was wearing it, just he was hit above the jacket in the jugular

[oxenos]

standard 10000lb tie down chains. laid on the seat pan did you recalculate weight and balance?
With both pilots and the F/E, thats 30000lb of chain on the flight deck.
Surprised you could get the thing to rotate on take-off

[NutLoose]

PN.

The TV programme said he wasn't, as does the Guardian article

At the time of the assassination, at near point-blank range by a teenage gunman, described later as "the shot heard around the world", it was reported that Franz Ferdinand owned but was not wearing body armour.However it was tenuous to say it would have protected him, she might have survived though.

He fired twice into the car, hitting Ferdinand in the neck and Sophie in the abdomen. Both died within the hour.

[ancientaviator62]

oxenos,
I assume your post is more than a little tongue in cheek ! But for those who may take it at face value the numbers refer to the nominal strength of the chains not their weight !

[oxenos]

ancientaviator62

They don't seem to be biting today. Yours is not even a nibble. Spoilsport.

[SASless]

Knowing Truckies as I do....Dog Leash Chain would be more than big enough to protect their Wedding Tackle!:E

[Danny42C]

I hope you'll all excuse this long, sorry story of Chain Measurement (being excerpts from my Posts on "Pilot's Brevet" - all on Page 162).

Danny.

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p.162 #3222

Danny intends to Put to Sea - but not far.

A few weeks before we finished flying my prayers were answered. I was allocated a 24 (?) ft "Bomb Scow" (whatever that might be). I'd hoped for an inflatable of some sort, which could be kept on shore and easily launched from the beach at Moplah Bay (just the other side of the Fort). But this was better than nothing. However, before this vessel could appear, I had to prepare moorings to which it could be tethered.

Three laterite blocks of specified dimensions had to be made and sunk offshore in a equilateral triangle of given size. They had to be connected together by chain cable bolted into each block, then coming together to a single chain and buoy. The Length (but not the size) of the chain was not specified. That, I suppose, would depend on the size of the boat.

While the CDRE were casting about for the laterite, and masons to cut it to size, it fell to me to produce the chain from RAF sources. No mariners being to hand, Sgt Williams and I looked down the Stores lists, and decided that one-inch chain should be about right for a vessel of our size. The demand went in to the appropriate M.U. (Union Jack is now convulsed with laughter if he is reading this).
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#3224



The Chains that Bind Us.

Union Jack,

Thanks for the tip - Wiki gives a photo of this enormous flat-bottomed thing. I'd got the length wrong for a start (31 ft was the smallest on offer). Lord help us if we'd actually got one !

And thanks for keeping quiet, so as not to shoot my fox (for I'm sure you know what is coming next). We haven't heard the rest of the story !

All in good time, Cheers, Danny.

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#3227

Danny and the final Wrap-up.

About the middle of April I got my "Marching Orders". Not for release yet, but as my (extended) overseas tour had time-expired. 1340 Flight had ceased to have any purpose (except to act as a holding unit for the aircrew officers who had come out just after VJ and would have to wait some time yet before shipping was available for their return home).

My one-and-only Command had lasted for only 13 months, but it had been interesting. Alex would not need to catch up with much paperwork, but I would still leave him a problem (in the shape of an unintended legacy to the good folk of Cannanore). It happened like this:

A couple of days before I left, there was an agitated message from the local Stationmaster. My chain had arrived ! It was taking up a lot of room, could I please come and take it away ? I went to have a look. No, I couldn't ! When we put the demand in, we'd blithely assumed the "one inch" referred to the overall size of a single link (well, it stands to reason, doesn't it ?)

Unfortunately, it doesn't ! - It's the thickness of the rod from which the links are forged that counts ! What we had specified would serve as anchor cable for the Queen Mary (or at least a Mersey ferry) ! And IIRC, there was 100 fathoms of it. Of course the stuff shouldn't have been sent at all; it was the M.U's mistake as we'd cancelled the order. We signalled them to come and take it back.....

............Meanwhile there was this monstrous pile taking up half the goods yard, and the Stationmaster was tearing his hair out. I left for Bombay and never did hear the end of it. But everyone was in the winding-down phase, chaos reigned and I would not be at all surprised if the huge heap of rusting chain is there yet.

By now it will be covered in vegetation and may have acquired religious significance. Mothers will tell their babes tales of the Great Danny Sahib, who once flew in a Huge Iron Bird from their maidan and in gratitude for his safe return to Earth had caused this stupa to be raised in honour of whichever God ruled the roost in those parts.

*******************

[Pontius Navigator]

Danny, digressing who had come out just after VJ and would have to wait some time yet before shipping was available for their return home).

Indeed, my father sailed immediately after VJ Day and was away for two years.

As far as this Of course the stuff shouldn't have been sent at all he received a huge saloon carpet for the ship to replace a perfectly serviceable one as well as the ship itself being due for scrap when it returned to UK. The carpet graced our living room for at least 15 years.

[dragartist]

Good to see you back AA62.
The 5000 lb chains are 3/16 rod and 19 links in a foot.
not a touch on Danny's one inch chain!
I am not a Pilot but I have a couple of stories for here. Perhaps fit the bill - a little knowledge is dangerous!
on way back from Farnborough to RAE Bedford in a Piper twin, sat on the pilots shoulder (as you do) I looked up and saw the fuel gauges reading MT. Turned to my mate and said "perhaps we are going to call in at LHR to get some" Just about to taxi onto the runway I was about to tap the pilot on the shoulder. He reached down operated some levers and the dials swung to Full. Thank for that.
Anyway we took off and after a few minutes the pilot turned to me and mouthed "Have you S#1t?", No not me. I turned again to my mate relaying the question. All of a sudden the Pitot started smacking his leg. It would appear he had not properly extinguished his pipe in his leg map pocket.

[treadigraph]

All of a sudden the Pitot started smacking his leg.

So that's what the pitot is for, I always wondered... ;)

[Danny42C]

dragartist (#125),

Excerpt from "Pilot's Brevet" Thread, p.162 #3222.....

.....We'd take the 15cwt "Canvas Tilt" Fordson, we could lower the windsceen flat and enjoy the cooling airflow as we trundled over the rough roads at 20-30. I smoked a pipe in those days, and puffed contentedly as we rattled along. I didn't notice a glowing bit of tobacco which blew out and landed on the (starched) waistband of my shorts.

There a smouldering ring grew unnoticed until it reached flesh. Then I noticed in a big way ! A very amused Sgt helped me beat out the conflagration; I had a very sore tummy for some time and resolved not to drive and smoke in future....

...plus ça change..................

Danny42C.

[ancientaviator62]

oxenos,
it is very difficult on any 'social media' to convey humour, irony etc. Most attempts usually end up in ever increasing misunderstandings.

[Pontius Navigator]

ancientaviator62

They don't seem to be biting today. Yours is not even a nibble. Spoilsport.
Got it b4, but it takes a moment for the mind to compute your chains almost the same weight as an F4.