Parc to provide temp EK pilots?

[trimotor]

Apparently high- grade rumor doing the rounds, that Parc have been asked by EK to provide pilots for EK line ops...20 on/10 off. One would also have to assume that, if it's true, the money would be OK too..

Sowing the wind..

Discuss.

[pumpkin]

...of course they will be paid twice as much as us and this will cause further attrition.. Glad to have the extra bodies to share the load, but need to start rewarding your hard driven slaves that have stuck it out.

[Monarch Man]

Very easy to find out, sign up for their job alert email, or better yet 777 guys on your next DUB trip..pop in and say hello and have a cuppa, they are easy enough to find just off Swords Rd.

[777-200LR]

I would welcome it with all arms and pay them twice as much for all I care. They are temporary and we're not, the load badly needs to be spread. Sadly, there aren't that many 777 guys laying around.....

[Kamelchaser]

With four senior TREs having resigned in the past couple of weeks, (and that's just the ones I personally know of), I'm guessing EK is in desperate need of something innovative. But it would appear they simply don't care.

Reduced experience in every seat in the aircraft and in the sim. Big worry. Tremendous worry. As Trump would say.

[PILOTHEAD]

If they dropped this thousand hour widebody requirements on 737 guys there would be a lot more DEC applicants to chose from. But if benefits and healthcare is so expensive it may be even easier to outsource a cash force with lower overhead and no liability

[glofish]

If true, i'd go for the PARC deal, quit on the spot to reapply with them and get 10 days off in a row. Not even bothered to check the money.

[Jetkopite]

They are a JOKE with no pride whatsoever...

I wouldnt recommend this to my worst ENEMY in all honesty.. Ive had many good experience guys approach me from Europe about applying here and I directed them up the road to QR as its easier to get home every month and get adequate leave every other month there, they are very happy there and they even joke there among them about how dire EK has become and how they made the right choice to go there..

When will realise that the 4500 pilots they have are their best recruiters to bring in pilots????? Time is nearly up and Cant wait :-)))))))

[springbok449]

Pilothead,

EK don't need DECs they have plenty of suitably qualified FOs waiting for promotion, what they need is to attract guys to replace these FOs that are moving to the left seat...

[Icelanta]

If they do not need DEC, why then are they almost harassing me since several weeksto join their recruitment days??

By the way, transition from B737 to widebody Boeing is no problem at all. The Airline I fly for does it all the time. In fact, Widebody ops are easier.

[pumpkin]

"Wake up EK - why don't you try to keep the experience guys here! Keep the senior guys happy, as a start getting seniority reinstated in the bid system, that might stop them leaving then you can start trying to increase numbers! Simple!"
EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!- Increase the salaries dramatically of guys that are here, give them a few perks, follow through on empty promises, stop purposely trying to fail them in the sim or refuse swaps that are perfectly legal , give them their bid choices, give them their LEAVE- even if it means cancelling a few flights - THEN - word gets out on the street that EK is paying well, looking after their guys, and people start coming here. Then no pilot shortage. Seriously not rocket science. The amount spent (actually a lot is cost neutral anyway) is a pittance compared to the turnover they are dealing with, not to mention the cost of the next accident resulting from ridiculous fatigue. Sheik M needs to remove the clearly pilot hating poison from management, or this airline is doomed.

[Kamelchaser]

Suitably qualified FOs?..plenty. FO's to replace them? Almost none. A few nights ago a PPC sim was cancelled because the FO bailed and there was no-one to replace him. There were also six flights without FOs that night. Absolute and utter chaos.

A tiny number of applicants have passed the recruitment process in the past two months.

[Spikedog]

[QUOTE=Seaman Staynes;9693261]I see from latest email they want us to all start recommending any pilots we know - our friends...

Have I missed something? Not seen any email.

Not that I'd recommend anyone to this joke of a sh*t show

[MacSheikh]

By the way, transition from B737 to widebody Boeing is no problem at all
Probably true.

In fact, Widebody ops are easier. I may be wrong but that sounds like someone who has no idea of EK ops.

[Spikedog]

Spikedog - flight ops update!


Oh yes, thanks.

Not sure why they think any of us would recommend this place?

[Monarch Man]

Asked a mate yesterday (who should know) who said the rumour is bovine waste product. On a separate point, Icelanta..widebody ops are generally a bit easier, but here at EK they are made rather more difficult simply by our route and roster structure, unless it's on the 380 were the most difficult part is ignoring all the "spurious" electronic don't crash aids.

[donpizmeov]

Would have been good if the 777 had some of those Moanarch.

[natops]

Increase the salaries of the present workforce-I agree! And ontop of that compensate for the 5% tax coming Jan1st on a lotta products in the UAE. Otherwise on top of the non existing inflation correction, there will be another 'salarydecrease' coming rapidly yr way...

Oh wait, forgot one thing... they dont care... We will see.

[keepitrealok]

donpizmeov

Would have been good if the 777 had some of those Moanarch.


Would have been better if BasicFlyingSkills 101 had been followed.

[Monarch Man]

Settle down ladies, Don is merely being Don..I happen to enjoy his reposts which for the most part are based on fact.
That being said, I can't stand most things French, apart from Le Man and perhaps the Rhone Valley mid summer.

[springbok449]

Ice, I didn't say that conversion from 73 to triple was difficult but I will say that having flown "heavies" for years before joining EK is that operating a 777 in some of the places we operate them into can be challenging no matter how experienced you are.
What I was pointing out however is that we should be looking after the good guys that we already have.
I often fly with First Officers here that meet the age and hours requirement plus the "seniority" and ability required to be a captain only to be frozen because we can't attract suitably qualified pilots to replace them in the right hand seat once they move over and instead EK has to lower itself to stalking guys on social media to see if they want to join as DECs, now that's wrong no matter which side of the fence you're sitting on!

[nolimitholdem]

Meh. The A vs B back and forth is fine, expected, actually from children but once someone dies it's not quite as funny. To each their own, I guess.

[bluesideoops]

Seems like the organisations described in this guys article could well include EK:
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/has-sms-had-its-day-graham-hamilton

[jlardo]

I think we're going to see this more and more in the industry, the advent of contracting companies being involved in sourcing pilots for major airlines around the world.
And as a pilot who enjoys the attraction of being able to experience living in different countries around the world, I would definitely be interested doing a term with EK if the terms were right.

[Plane and simple]

if the terms were right.

The point is......... the terms are not right. And they never will be.

[Officer Kite]

The point is......... the terms are not right. And they never will be.
Surely even with the current terms it would be worth it try out a contract job with EK if given, if you're young, free and single like me then our demographic have nothing to lose!

[Emma Royds]

Surely even with the current terms it would be worth it try out a contract job with EK if given, if you're young, free and single like me then our demographic have nothing to lose!
Except applying to a carrier that is established in the contract world and has a proven history of actually delivering what they offer from the outset.

[Plane and simple]

Surely even with the current terms it would be worth it try out a contract job with EK if given, if you're young, free and single like me then our demographic have nothing to lose!

You just summed up the P2F mindset in one sentence.
You have your future career to lose.
It's killing this industry.

[Officer Kite]

You just summed up the P2F mindset in one sentence.

The P2F mindset is that one is willing to pay their employer to carry fare paying passengers.

I spoke about working as a contractor and being paid to do so.

Where is the correlation? I despise P2F actually.

[alwayzinit]

JA saying "I can't say because its commercially in confidence".

It is only a sensitive bit of info as the number is so high! If it were a normal attrition rate due to long timers retiring the number would not be an issue.

:ugh:

[Monarch Man]

Personally I have a lot of time for JA, he has been a complete gent in regards to a couple of issues I needed resolving. The whole seniority thing as we know comes from higher up, and is designed to hide the reality, JAs "commercial sensitive" comment is his way of saying what he can't say...read between the lines guys.
I heard recently that the calendar Jan to Dec number who left or resigned etc is a bit north of 400 and some.

[halas]

My humble opinion is the fact that as far as the general populace of staff don't have access to commuting then why should the pilots.

I know this is short sighted, however the flight crew envy rears it's ugly head from every department.

Nothing new, but to retain crew this needs to be addressed.

halas

[Besser]

Senority list is a bit hard to reveal a clear picture thise days, but here is the facts. I was hired ultimo 2012. in 4 years 600 pilots in front of me have left. I have now 1600 behind me aprox. The total number as per date. 4245 pilots. It Will be interesting to see how much that number will drop over the next coming month if those rumors are true. Profit share this year will hardly keep people around.

[harry the cod]

5.5% is the figure for October 2015 to '16, so the 10% being quoted is wide of the mark. However, over 200 pilots leaving, or around 4 every week, is still not an insignificant amount. Most airlines can expect a rough 2-2.5% with an expat airline slightly higher, maybe 3-3.5 absolute tops. As Monarch Man said, the fact that he can't quote the figure says it all.

I also agree that JA is inherently honourable, as is MM & HD but their hands are tied. The major filter in the system is obvious but loss of face, culture and arrogant incompetence prevents this irksome individual from admitting he got it wrong. I pity MM to be honest, as the number of times he has to apologise to the trainers for broken promises is constant. The experienced ones are either leaving or, so demotivated to not really care much either way. Any further promises of 'improvements just around the corner' are met with derisory "whatevers" or "I'll believe it when I see it", "Heard it all before", "I shan't hold my breath".

Ironically, despite their positions, all those mentioned probably have less actual authority and control on their day to day work environment than we do!

With the pilot recruitment team depleted and the cabin crew one disbanded altogether, for at least 12 months, I can see no improvement on the horizon whatsoever. When the Company starts sending emails to previous unsuccessful candidates, you know we've hit rock bottom.

Harry

[alwayzinit]

As Halas says the "Flight Crew Envy" is a really big issue here.

However, an airline without enough pilots just becomes an aircraft storage company.

There are many disparities between Ground/Office staff and Flight Crew/Operational staff, leave and weekends are just a couple.

As far as I know EK has NEVER had an issue recruiting Ground/Office staff, consequently no recruiting or package incentives are needed. The same cannot be said for Aircrew, Engineers etc.

Its a marketplace and EK having been THE place to come has rapidly become THE place to avoid, for anyone with historic experience. Not my personal spin but direct feedback from chums with ticks in all the boxes whom I have known for years.

This is sad as it used to be the best expat job out there................................:sad:

[jatqual]

Harry, is Oct to Oct chosen as it's the lowest percentage over a 12 month period?

[harry the cod]

Ha ha, no, it's the only dates that were quoted.

I can't disclose the source, obviously, but it is reliable. There are only a handful of people who know the exact number of leavers and whether that figure has increased recently, only they will know. However, the 10% being banded about is an exaggeration.

What is clear, regardless of the actual % figure, is that the attrition rate is of huge concern. Not only in crewing aircraft, but in attracting experienced pilots to replace those that leave. We are starting to become the 'Ryanair' of the Middle East with an ever increasing number of low hour pilots joining. This is not inferring disrespect in anyway to those employed by Ryanair, merely that the dynamics within the airline has changed. Our Captains are becoming less experienced and often with a commensurate lack of confidence. We are starting to become an 'on the job training airline', something that many new Captains are ill equipped to handle. We rarely, if ever, offer feedback and very few F/O's ask for it. Poor performance and attitude, as well as reduced knowledge goes unchecked. Basic handling, taxying and operating skills become less common. Even simple descent planning becomes difficult for those unfamiliar with jet energy management or those over reliant on VNAV. Crew are not being encouraged big picture but are trained to detail by new trainers, keen to demonstrate their knowledge. Combine this with the very challenging environment in which we operate, and the holes are being lined up nicely. The increasing number of marginal passes and failures during training supports this. Further, Add in the number of experienced TRE's leaving and the mess is multiplied. This has become a major Flight Safety concern in my opinion.

It's not pretty!

Harry

[Jetkopite]

Its so worrying that EK521 wasnt enough to change things here and they will wait till there is a smoking hole in the ground with many fatalities to do it... Time is nearly up for me here and only priority is go home healthy and in one piece. Never thought I would hate this job sooooooo much but I do...!!!!!

[jatqual]

Thanks Harry, I agree and yes Jetkopite, TCSTC has quite a lot to answer for. Apart from being highly unhealthy, it's a remarkable achievement to have employees display such level of anger towards an employer. It's against natural human instincts.

[falconeasydriver]

Harry, and all other EK remainers

What is clear, regardless of the actual % figure, is that the attrition rate is of huge concern. Not only in crewing aircraft, but in attracting experienced pilots to replace those that leave. We are starting to become the 'Ryanair' of the Middle East with an ever increasing number of low hour pilots joining. This is not inferring disrespect in anyway to those employed by Ryanair, merely that the dynamics within the airline has changed. Our Captains are becoming less experienced and often with a commensurate lack of confidence. We are starting to become an 'on the job training airline', something that many new Captains are ill equipped to handle. We rarely, if ever, offer feedback and very few F/O's ask for it. Poor performance and attitude, as well as reduced knowledge goes unchecked. Basic handling, taxying and operating skills become less common. Even simple descent planning becomes difficult for those unfamiliar with jet energy management or those over reliant on VNAV. Crew are not being encouraged big picture but are trained to detail by new trainers, keen to demonstrate their knowledge. Combine this with the very challenging environment in which we operate, and the holes are being lined up nicely. The increasing number of marginal passes and failures during training supports this. Further, Add in the number of experienced TRE's leaving and the mess is multiplied.

This is a never ending cycle of ever decreasing circles, but rest assured no one cares. Yes there might be a consolatory word or two spoken at the various fleet things etc, or perhaps a carefully worded email from the higher ups I'm guessing, but the key element is they couldn't give 2 sh1ts about what you, your friends, your colleagues or the various senior trainers and middle managers think. Your most likely accurate thoughts and opinions are mere irrelevant annoyances to their enlightened views regarding the reality as they want too see it, and shape it. When the house of cards collapses, and it will be sudden, there will be howls of shock and horror, but nothing will be heard from the higher floors nor will there be even an utter with a hint of remorse or culpability, moreover the chief architect will merely move on to other projects safe in the knowledge of a superior genetic makeup and bank balance.
What a shame when so many have seen this coming for a long time, get out fellas while you still can.

[JNPS]

Harry, you are spot on. The emphasis seems to be on regurgitating an 80+ page briefing pkg, after having acknowledged that I've seen it. Everything else operationally, comes second. The big picture doesn't exist. Threat based briefing; biggest threat is the "whatever you want to call it" split in the flight deck. Culture, language, age, experience. The guys in the right seat don't ask for feedback, because they "got it". Im not knocking age or experience, having flown with a mgmt. pilot who was the roughest I've seen, ever. Different times, I'm outta here!