Retention Review

[M1key]

Has anyone seen any details on the proposed changes to pay (including RRP(F)) due at the end of March?
Heard some rumours "flying"
and thought this would be a good place to see if anyone had any ideas on the plan?

I noticed a similar post has just been deleted, but didn't read the details. It may have been controversial.

Someone must know something given that the proposal is only 5 weeks away.

[Bob Viking]

The rumours you've heard are probably true. If it's the 6 yr RoS thing it will almost certainly happen. AMP himself suggested as much.

It was the bit about PAS that I was most interested in. A potentially rare good deal but still awaiting tri service approval. I shall leave it there...

BV

[Could be the last?]

So Bob V, what have you heard about PAS - is the 'good deal' for those that have it already, or for those that may be offered it or apply for it in the future?

[M1key]

I was led to believe that one wouldn't be getting RRP(F) until 6 years after the end of OCU. Not sure if the money from this is being used to increase money paid to existing personnel. As usual, some will win and lose I expect.
It would be useful to have a solid idea of what is coming.

Some people are submitting Early Termination (PVR) without even knowing the changes "allegedly" being announced on 31st March.
Will we get a chance to react to a change in the way we are paid?

[Bob Viking]

The proposed change is that RRP(F) will be paid upon completion of a 6 year RoS. However, what is owed will then be given as targeted lump sums at this point and a second lump at say 34 years of age with flying pay being paid at an as yet undetermined rate. Basically it is intended as an FRI (or forced savings scheme) on the cheap.

The bottom line is there is no money and when flying pay was changed to RRP we thought it was just a name change. It now transpires it was part of a long term plan to change the whole meaning of it. The whole plan assumes that your Typhoon QWI who has hitherto been paid the same as OC Catering (or less since the blunty will probably have been promoted) will be willing to stay for the moderate lump sum and increase in pay that is on offer.

As for the PAS thing, the Air Staff are aware that PAS needs to try a little harder to compete with the remuneration packages on offer elsewhere. This may or may not be part of the imminent review.

BV

[Just This Once...]

Just restoring the original intent of PAS would be a start. It was originally crafted so that a top level flt lt would receive exactly the same pay as a ground branch officer on appointment to gp capt. Due to various factors and changes over the years a flt lt will not even make it to the top of the ground branch wg cdr pay spine.

The increase and subsequent reduction in the PAS retention profile has neatly followed the increase and then reduction in the remuneration package. QED?

Replacing flying pay with a periodic cash bounty looks like another folly. Spread an income evenly over many years and the tax system works for you. Getting a big taxable lump sum in a single tax year works for the treasury.

[Sandy Parts]

VP - you forgot to include the usual 'consultation where we will listen to you concerns' between those 2 dates :)

[4everAD]

No doubt an increase in PVR time will accompany any announcement just in case it goes down badly!

[Bob Viking]

CM.

I do not know exact numbers but I reckon the number will be closer to 4 years of initial rate FP plus 2 years of middle rate FP. £70k would clearly be awesome but I doubt very much if the plan involves offering more money then is currently on offer!

BV

[Wrathmonk]

you receive no flying pay until 6 years when you get the option of taking a £70k (taxed) lump sum for signing up to a further 6 year commitment

So is that expected to be:

a. 6 years back 'flying' pay (i.e. an equivalent daily rate of £31.96) followed by a daily 'flying pay' rate according to rank or
b. A mix of 6 years back dated and 6 years advanced 'flying' pay (i.e. an equivalent daily rate of £15.98) but with no daily 'flying pay'.

My money would be on (b)......:ugh:

[M1key]

Will they change the name to RP(F)-Retention Pay (Flying). I don't see how this is going to work for Recruitment? Unless I've missed something?
Furthermore, a post event "Retention" Pay seems more like a bonus to me.

A 70K taxable "bonus" isn't amazing by any stretch of the imagination (after circa 9 years of service).

My generation became the first to get Flying Pay post OCU and we lost out. I fear for the true impact of this change. At least those who haven't finished their OCU yet will have time to consider their options (if that's what is happening)......🙈

Surely we should know well in advance? Especially when it is linked to terms and conditions of service.

Not again.....

[M1key]

I've heard from a fairly reliable source that it has been shelved again for this year due to retention and recruiting issues being an area for concern at the moment. Speaks volumes when retention pay changes have to be shelved due to retention problems!!
I wonder if this explains the delay on the pay announcement that was scheduled to be released, reportedly, a couple of weeks ago?

The future isn't bright, and it isn't orange.

The lack of formal notice isn't surprising, but just not good enough.

[M1key]

Not sure they have any options as they will be locked in for 6 years RoS anyway. Return of Service commitment starts when you commence your OCU whether you finish it or stop the course on day one. i.e. the contract is in force when you start the OCU.

The guys that will be rightly upset are those that, through no fault of their own, have been holding for OCUs now find themselves not getting RRP for another 6 years. You'll have some guys who's coursemates went straight to an OCU getting flying pay while those that held get nothing.

A Return of Service is not a contract.

[finningleyprince]

Quote:
Originally Posted by M1key
At least those who haven't finished their OCU yet will have time to consider their options (if that's what is happening).
Not sure they have any options as they will be locked in for 6 years RoS anyway. Return of Service commitment starts when you commence your OCU whether you finish it or stop the course on day one. i.e. the contract is in force when you start the OCU.

Wow, if this is true it's big news to a few I know. Them being coerced onto platforms they don't want and now rapidly searching for jobs on the outside whilst playing 'the game' on the OCU. Is this written down in a JSP or something, and presumably they would have had to sign before they started said OCU?
It surely can't be the case that as you start an OCU you accept an ROS, surely you'd have to sign as accepting the ROS beforehand? Like I say, this is news......

[alfred_the_great]

This is all for New Joiners - and those of you in the Armed Forces can't have helped but noticed Chief of Defence Personnel's post on the front page of the Defence Intranet outlining this...

[M1key]

finningley- the RoS is nothing new at all. It's all clearly laid out in the JSP and DiN....commitment to RoS starts when you join a course and applies if you finish it or not. Clock starts ticking on the day you complete it or the day you withdraw from the course. Manning are nowadays very hot on making you sign the paperwork before you are allowed to start the course. In times gone by, they were a bit forgetful about the paperwork but would always hold you to the 'contract' based on a DiN being clearly published and available to read.

I've known some to challenge this based on not signing anything. The RAF reply was crack on, we'll see you in court.

Any change in terms and conditions of service (a change in RRP(F) during an OCU would be exactly this) would be exactly that, a change in your contract. The ROS is nota contract, but they treat it like one. Unless you have signed a change to your TCOS (e.g. The recent extension to age 60 via a signed TCOS) then the RAF would struggle to win that battle.
The last contract I signed was in 2003. 🙈
Anything else has had no basis in law.

[Pure Pursuit]

Charlie Mike,

I have seen people fail an OCU and then leave the service so, the ROS being enforced whether or not you pass the course is open for debate. Should the RAF removes you from a course, any requirement to honour an associated ROS must surely be lifted. I know of 2 people who left the RAF after failing an OCU.

Waving a DIN around holds no legal basis whatsoever.

PP

[Rotate too late]

Personally, when I started the training, I would of flown for free. Just to be in an aircraft was an absolute pleasure and privilege (still is). But, it is a job after all, and as you absorb the pressure and stress, as you continue to gain experience and all those little sacrifices that make up military flying, you come to realise your worth. It's not unnatural or should it be a surprise to the system when people start to put two and two together. I do not accept this constant theme about there being no money. If there is enough to pay administrative types six figure sums in the NHS and councils (more than the bloody PM for Christ sake!!) then I honestly think that the MOD should stop with the BS and start putting their hand in their pocket. If you lose one AH QHI worth literally millions then why the **** can it not be beyond the head shed to look after that investment. I know NPAS are only too happy to recruit high quality individuals who can do the job and be actually happy to be there!! Just look at Benson.....

[Whenurhappy]

Any change in terms and conditions of service (a change in RRP(F) during an OCU would be exactly this) would be exactly that, a change in your contract. The ROS is nota contract, but they treat it like one. Unless you have signed a change to your TCOS (e.g. The recent extension to age 60 via a signed TCOS) then the RAF would struggle to win that battle.
The last contract I signed was in 2003. 🙈
Anything else has had no basis in law.
Not really. There were massive changes (reductions) to DOMCOL which were never formally announced and constituted (in my mind) a significant change to TACOS. The response from Innsworth and then High Wycombe was 'meh'. I couldn't be arrsed fighting a system that doesn't really play by the rules of normal employment law

[Whenurhappy]

Charlie Mike,

I have seen people fail an OCU and then leave the service so, the ROS being enforced whether or not you pass the course is open for debate. Should the RAF removes you from a course, any requirement to honour an associated ROS must surely be lifted. I know of 2 people who left the RAF after failing an OCU.

Waving a DIN around holds no legal basis whatsoever.

PP
If someone fails and therefore cannot be employed in the role they were being trained for, they are effectively bed-blocking. Can the RAF forcibly re-branch someone who has failed, say, flying training, in order to enforce the ROS?

[Ricorigs]

1) Ref retaining post failure I believe they can but to my knowledge never heard of anyone being forced to. There is no point after all.

2) Everything i've read here reaffirms what rumours I have heard reference RRP(F). Redistribution of cash, a little every year rather than four yearly jumps, ceiling is slightly higher not sure what happens to specialist aircrew pay(?).

No real change for those in the system now but those waiting will get the change.

No money until 6yrs post OCU or CTT could be problematic as people won't miss what they have never had especially if they are threaders and thinking out.

3) 70k for 6 years isn't much. I do wonder if you leave after 4 years whether you pay the full amount back or just a portion.

[camelspyyder]

However, if they forget to get one to sign it in the rush to get a bum on a paid-for seat on a training course...

Post training, I think they gave up sending the RoS papers after my 3rd refusal to sign :)

[jayc530]

Has the review been delayed; a DIN was due to be published on 31 Mar?

[Bob Viking]

Jayc530.

Are you living in the future? The rest of us haven't reached the end of March yet.

BV

[alfred_the_great]

Says who?

There have certainly been no buzzes to that effect in my part of hte Navy.

If nothing else, the very easy conflation with 01 Apr would make it an odd choice of date to release.

[Rotate]

So now that the budget is out the way...any sight of the AFPRB review or the RRP(Fg) review?

Surely all the bad news should be lumped together!

[Bob Viking]

I'm pretty sure that any potential changes at the end of this month won't affect your pay packet until the end of April. Your point is still largely valid though.

BV

[M1key]

As we approach 3 weeks until the start of the month in which we will earn a different "salary", one would expect to have received something by now.
We might receive this pay at the end of April; however, we start earning that it on the 1st, so we "should"
have been told now.
People are making decisions (Return of Service, Extensions, Promotion, Early Termination et al) without having all the information to make an informed choice about their future.

I'm shocked that we have no real idea what is coming and how it is going to affect us. The lack of a formal update is indicative of the communications (or lack of) within Defence.

[Willard Whyte]

Going back over the last 24 years of reports, up to and including 2006 they were almost without exception published in February. Since 2007 they have been published in March. I seem to recall one in the mid-'noughties' that was published at the last minute; pretty sure it was in the last week of March. The 'delay' is hardly unprecedented, though no more excusable.

[NMHHHH]

As someone awaiting an OCU (who can measure their time holding in thousands of days) I am extremely interested to know what the cut off for not receiving flying pay until the end of OCU RoS is? I have heard everything from "not yet at IOT" though to "not completed an OCU as of Apr 1st 2017" on the rumour mill, but surprisingly not a peep from anyone official.

Having waited many years to get to an OCU it would be somewhat of a kick in the teeth to have the goalposts changed, especially given course mates on different types who are already receiving FP.

If anyone could shed any light it would be most appreciated.

[Biggus]

The AFPRB isn't independent, and doesn't claim to be (their limitations are normally published on page one of their report), at the end of the day they are constrained by the government's instructions.

Given that the government has repeatedly said that pay rises for public employees are limited to a maximum of 1% until 2019-2020, surely there can't be much of a surprise in the main thrust of the AFPRB eventual report?

[Rotate]

Or even surprise at the response by personnel when yet another effective annual pay cut comes their way!

👏 🤜👩🏻*✈️👨🏻*✈️

[Hot Charlie]

As someone awaiting an OCU (who can measure their time holding in thousands of days) I am extremely interested to know what the cut off for not receiving flying pay until the end of OCU RoS is? I have heard everything from "not yet at IOT" though to "not completed an OCU as of Apr 1st 2017" on the rumour mill, but surprisingly not a peep from anyone official.

Having waited many years to get to an OCU it would be somewhat of a kick in the teeth to have the goalposts changed, especially given course mates on different types who are already receiving FP.

If anyone could shed any light it would be most appreciated.

NMHHHH,

The last major change (2005 IIRC) was went it changed from the old "72 weeks flying training" for the award of FP to "completion of OCU". Back then the change affected those who had done EFT on UASs (it was based on the EFT completion date) and was implemented using a date 2 years previously in 2003. This led to courses further down the pipeline where some were on the old system, in receipt of FP, and others, quite often whose service was identical to the day, were on the new system and 24-36 months away from completing an OCU. Fairness and any perceived "kick in the teeth" won't come in to it. Brace yourself for the worst case; any improvement on that will then come as a pleasant surprise.:)

[Bannock]

Interesting letter from the treasury here,
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/539366/CST_letter_to_AFPRB_chair.pdf


In the house on Monday@ 2:30, defence and topical questions - might have some updates.

[NMHHHH]

NMHHHH,

Brace yourself for the worst case; any improvement on that will then come as a pleasant surprise.:)

Expecting the worst is now my baseline with all things Flying Training.

I'm very disappointed that we haven't received anything official yet, as I know I am not alone in saying that this could decide if I even start an OCU (and 6 year RoS). This simply could be the straw that broke the camels back for many; 2010 redundancies, 2015 Pension, NEM, FAM, years of holding. The average guy reaching an OCU these days is 30, not young twenties any more!

I guess I could always notify the RAF of changes to my ToS and stop working Fridays....

[M1key]

I fear the worst for you NMHHHH, especially after such a long hold. Ultimately they have retained you, which doesn't make this a fair system. It never is.

I went through the same NMHHHH with the last change in 2005. My era should have received "Flying Pay" at the 72 week point in accordance with the agreed position on joining the RAF.
I didn't really chase at the time, because I'd only just joined.

Should have had flying pay in 2005, but didn't receive it until 2008 and lost out (c. £20,000 plus). The new proposal is "allegedly" much more of a hit initially for those who haven't finished their Phase 2 trg.

We need the details sooner rather than later, especially those like yourself who may be significantly impacted (supposedly).

Good luck.

I'll keep chasing and upload any links to updates if and when they are released.

[Aynayda Pizaqvick]

All the rumours that I have heard (which have originated Manning DOs) have the new RRP(Fg) package improving for all when looked at over the course of a career, so you might be pleasantly surprised. Ultimately the changes are being made to retain people, and they aren't going to do that successfully by introducing a package that sees people worse off overall.
If you are still in phase 2 training then I would probably prepare yourself for the likelihood that you won't receive retention pay during your initial 6 year RoS when you are contractually obliged to stay in the RAF. But after that I reckon there is a good chance that you will be better off than if you had stayed on the old system and worked your way up to middle rate flying pay.

Of course, until Manning release some facts, this is just rumour, but Manning DOs have been discussing it with front line personnel, so there should be at least some truth behind them.

[Aynayda Pizaqvick]

Subscription only, any chance of a precis?

[Onceapilot]

AP quote:

but Manning DOs have been discussing it with front line personnel, so there should be at least some truth behind them.

Totally unreliable in my experience. :hmm:

OAP

[SwitchMonkey]

I can't vouch for the rest of the remuneration package, but there is an article here about the USAF retention bonus - and how it isn't as effective as they would like it to be.

https://www.airforcetimes.com/articles/ndaa-aviator-retention-pay