Masters of the Air

[ORAC]

Steven Spielberg and Tom Hanks looking to film new aviation blockbuster in Lincolnshire | Lincolnshire Live (http://www.lincolnshirelive.co.uk/steven-spielberg-and-tom-hanks-could-film-new-aviation-blockbuster-in-lincolnshire/story-30152050-detail/story.html)

American aviation advisers to a new Second World War blockbuster series by Steven Spielberg and Tom Hanks are visiting Lincolnshire to get a flavour of our historic USAAF connections.

Masters of the Air is a ten-eposide mini-series which forms the third intalment in their triology after Band of Brothers and Pacific. This time the story focuses on the American daylight bomber raids over occupied territory, launched from Norfolk and Suffolk. Scenes will be shot at UK locations yet to be decided but officials here want to suggest that Lincolnshire also gets in on the action, given our county's strong wartime links with the USAAF.....

Don Miller, author of Masters of the Air, on which the new series is based, and scriptwriter John Orloff will be touring key aviation sites in Lincolnshire linked to the USAAF on Friday, February 24, in a tour organised by Aviation Heritage Lincolnshire........

[Arclite01]

Shouldn't that be Norfolk, Suffolk, Essex and Cambridgeshire really ??

Arc

[SLFguy]

Its is the publications location.

[ORAC]

It would also depend on which locations can be used for filming. How many in East Anglia and further south haven't been built over, surrounded by obtrusive structures, active sites or in controlled airspace?

[Arclite01]

ORAC that will be very few................

The Spielberg people were at Duxford on Monday.................. apparently it's 75 years since the 'Friendly Invasion'

Arc

[noflynomore]

American aviation advisers to a new Second World War blockbuster series

No doubt involving a complete rewrite of history to show the murricans as the sole participants and sole winners of the War...

Again.

[Wycombe]

The Spielberg people were at Duxford on Monday

Presumably to have a look at a B17?

[Danny42C]

The "Unsinkable aircraft carrier" ! But they found our damp weather a bit discouraging, at first.

(Reported exasperated comment at the time): "Why don't they just cut the [barrage balloon] cables and let the goddam place sink ?"

D.

[Martin the Martian]

No doubt involving a complete rewrite of history to show the murricans as the sole participants and sole winners of the War...

Again.

The Brits popped up in quite a few places in Band of Brothers, to be honest.

[Pontius Navigator]

Remember the Memphis Belle was shot at that fenland airfield in Lincolnshire :)

[Arclite01]

Binbrook long gone of course................

Arc

[Herod]

No doubt involving a complete rewrite of history to show the murricans as the sole participants and sole winners of the War...


Not the sole, but I think we have to agree, the major participants and winners. The Brits stopped Adolph winning (Battle of Britain), but couldn't have won it without the Americans. Who of course couldn't have invaded Europe without the unsinkable aircraft carrier, which wouldn't have been there if...circular argument.

I've often thought that once the B17, P51 and Glenn Miller were in the UK, Adolph should have quietly given up..there was no way he was going to win.

Before I get flamed, I'm as patriotic Brit as anyone, and readily acknowledge the contributions of other nations in the struggle.

[rolling20]

I wonder if they will touch on the 'over sexed ,over paid and over here' part of their stay? My wife's grandmother, Suffolk born and bred says, 'ooh we had a lovely time during the war'. She gave me a book called East Anglia 1943, which has several references to local press reports regarding the behaviour of local girls and Gi's and morality concerns at that time. Even the mayor of Bury st Edmund's got involved, publishing an open letter to his citizens on morality!

[Wander00]

Whilst I was the result of wholly British "immorality", my adopted brother was the result of a liaison between an American airman and a then 16 year old Cambridgeshire lass, and since his 71st birthday was earlier this week, I suspect over-enthusiastic celebration of "Victory in Europe"

[goudie]

[

There were some strapping young lads in Bassingbourn village and Royston in the 50's/60's, who didn't appear to come from purely local stock

[Heathrow Harry]

"Not the sole, but I think we have to agree, the major participants and winners."

And there was me thinking the Red Army arrived in Berlin on a coach trip.................

[trim it out]

I thought the "Masters of the Air" name was changed to "The Mighty Eighth" a few years ago?

Trailer here (https://youtu.be/PhmFFtjB2qY)

[Tankertrashnav]

And there was me thinking the Red Army arrived in Berlin on a coach trip.................

A subject which has been argued over endlessly, but as this thread is mainly concerned with air operations, and in particular the bombing offensive, it has to be said that the the Soviet Air Force played a very minor part in strategic bombing operations. It was primarily a tactical battlefield force, and was undoubtedly very effective in support of the Red Army, but there is no doubt that the Soviet advance Westward profited greatly from much weakened German defences, thanks to the combined efforts of the US 8th Army Air Force and RAF Bomber Command.

[Heathrow Harry]

A VVSO I once met and who had fought his way from Normandy to Hamburg said when asked:

"The British bought time - if we'd surrendered in 1940 the US would never have come into Europe and the Russians would have been pushed way over the Urals. The Russians bought space and brought manpower - we'd never have won in Europe without the meat-grinder on the Eastern Front. The Americans brought technology and manpower - we'd still be sitting here staring across the Channel without them. Without all three fighting together the German would have probably won......."

Pretty fair summary I think

[sandiego89]

No doubt involving a complete rewrite of history to show the murricans as the sole participants and sole winners of the War...

Again.


Boy you must be fun at parties. So it is too hard to imagine that an American production, focusing on an American unit would focus on the on the Americans? Band of Brothers, Pacific, Memphis Belle, Saving private Ryan, and even the stinkers like Pearl Harbor and Red Tails etc. were unit focused movies, so naturally focused on the American side of the story- but all seem to include the allies where appropriate.


I would not expect a movie focused on USAAF daylight raids to spend much time on Spitfire and Lancaster units nor the Russian front.


Nor would I complain that Dam Busters was too UK focused.


So while there does seem to be a bias for more American production to focus on American involvement in the war, that may be more due to demand and interest- not a attempt to rewrite history. Interested to hear which films/shows you see as attempts to re-write history...

[Saintsman]

I'll bite.

U-571...

[Danny42C]

I think Heathrow Harry (#19) has the right of it.

There was no "silver bullet". The Third Reich collapsed under the combined weight of all the force which the Allies had brought to bear over the years.

As I've said somewhere: "if our generation did nothing else, it put that monster down under the crossroads with a stake through its heart".

There was nothing special about us, we were just the ones on duty when the job came up. You, our grandchildren, would do just as well if something like it came along again (and yet might)......God forbid !

Danny.

[noflynomore]

Thank you. Saintsman. There are a lot of people on here who seem to suffer collective amnesia when they get on a collective slagging-off spree even though they know full well what I was referring to as it has frequently attracted lengthy posts from my point of view in the past.
The less pleasant side of internet herd-bullying behaviour.

[Wander00]

The late David Balme, who took the Enigma and code books off U-110, gave an evening lecture at the Yacht Club of which he was a Member and I was Secretary. At the end he, with permission showed a trailer of the then soon to be released "U-571", with the addition of the postscript that he had requested the producers to include, to the effect that the movie was a work of fiction, based on the exploits of the then Sub Lt Balme and the crew of his ship.

[Pontius Navigator]

sandiego, the key phrase is "complete rewrite of history". The film U-571 was one such, I quote from Wiki:

German submarine U-571 was a Type VIIC U-boat built for the Nazi Germany's Kriegsmarine for service during World War II. U-571 conducted eleven war patrols, sinking seven ships totalling 47,169 gross register tons (GRT), and damaging one other, which displaced 11,394 tons. On 28 January 1944 she was attacked by an Australian-crewed Sunderland aircraft from No. 461 Squadron RAAF west of Ireland and was destroyed by depth charges. All hands were lost.
The fictional 2000 U.S. war film U-571 has no relation to this U-boat, but is very loosely based on the British capture of U-110 and her Enigma and cipher keys.

That is the sort of film that gets many others a bad name. There are of course many other films that are not fiction. Perhaps the best Allied film was The Longest Day. Other single nation films like Battle of the Bulge, Bridge at Remagen, Patton attracted no such criticism.

Of modern films I happened across The Fury the other day. A remarkable film featuring little, if any, music, and excellent CGI. Seeing the effect of an AP round hitting a tank and heating the armour to white hot was amazing and none of the usual Hollywood slow explosions.

[cynicalint]

One film that always agitated my father, who was a pilot on the Dakota Force on 194 Sqn in 1944 at places such as Kohima and Imphal, was ‘Objective Burma’ starring Errol Flynn. My Father always referred to it as ‘Errol Flynn winning the war in Burma single handedly’.

To quote Wikipedia:
Even though it was based on the exploits of Merrill's Marauders, Objective Burma was withdrawn from release in the United Kingdom after it infuriated British Prime Minister Winston Churchill and drew protests about the Americanization of an almost entirely British, Indian and Commonwealth conflict. An editorial in The Times said:
It is essential both for the enemy and the Allies to understand how it came about that the war was won ... nations should know and appreciate the efforts other countries than their own made to the common cause.

I wonder what Danny 42 thinks of ‘Objective Burma’ having also been there and was he as bothered as Churchill and others?

[Mozella]

Don't forget what I consider the most fictitious military film of all times, "Top Gun". The movie was, and continues to be, a huge hit. I had the great honor to have graduated twice from Fighter Weapons School ("Top Gun" is simply the squadron call sign); once when flying the F-8 Crusader and later on when flying the F-14 Tomcat. Thrilling though some of the scenes may be, there is nearly nothing authentic about the film, especially the behavior of the main characters.

It's a shame really, because filming the actual truth might have made an even better movie from a civilian point of view. From the point of view of someone who was there, "Top Gun" is cringe worthy and even embarrassing.

[reynoldsno1]

I'll bite. U-571.
Good ripping yarn - it's a movie, not a documentary. As mentioned, there was an acknowledgement of the actual events. It deservedly won awards for its sound - which was superb.
I'm ex-kipper fleet, btw - as was my Dad who was based in Iceland during the Battle of the Atlantic.

[Danny42C]

cynicalint,

Remember it well, my reaction was exactly the same as that of your Father. The distortion of the facts was so extreme as to be ridiculous.

Glad to hear of Churchill's objections, think it was only after I came back in '46 that I saw it in the UK. Wiki tells me that it was originally released in January, 1945, when I was in Burma with a war that still had another seven months to run.

Danny42C.

[polecat2]

As one who's been interested in the strategic air offensive against Germany for many years I find it rather sad that discussions of it often degenerate into slagging off the contributions of one side or another. Remember that the bomber crews were all volunteers fighting a type of warfare that had never been tried before and tactics had to be made up as they went along. I for one look forward to "Masters of the Air" or whatever it will be called and hope it is as good as "Band of Brothers".
I have read that RAF Bomber Command had the second highest proportion of casualties of any force in WW2 and the US 8th AF was not far behind. The "honour" of having the highest proportion of casualties in WW2 belongs to the German U-Boat Fleet.

Polecat

[MightyGem]

I thought the "Masters of the Air" name was changed to "The Mighty Eighth" a few years ago?
So it would seem:
https://www.thevintagenews.com/2015/08/29/hbos-the-mighty-eighth-an-update-its-getting-close-500-million-budget/

[westernhero]

Some posters anger is misplaced. Don't blame the American film industry in Hollywood for making films about their forces exploits and contributions instead wonder why we cannot make anything which shows our deeds in warfare in this country. The modern British ( 80s onwards ) film makers show no inclination to show our young men and women in a good light in any conflict in the 20th or 21st C.
They might ask one of these people if they ever come across one of them 'why not ? All films seem to be about the multi culti world they inhabit in London or dubious 'romances or comedies ' ( I use these terms in the vaguest sense). Mostly god awful tripe with no appeal to the rest of us.
Hollywood understands that the Patriotic USA wants films about their people in war, the luvvies over here don't.

[Tankertrashnav]

The modern British ( 80s onwards ) film makers show no inclination to show our young men and women in a good light in any conflict in the 20th or 21st C.

Which is why I much prefer the products of an earlier age such as The Cruel Sea, Ice Cold in Alex, Dunkirk, and many more.

[India Four Two]

A VVSO I once met ...

HH,

Was that the same VVSO who agreed with your comments about a certain Allied tank? Do tell!

[Carbon Bootprint]

I wonder if they will touch on the 'over sexed ,over paid and over here' part of their stay?
Why not? It is the 21st Century...and sex sells. :E

[Two's in]

It's almost as if Hollywood films are targeted at a wide cross-section of society and are simplified and popularized to gain the largest share of box-office profits possible. Sometimes I suspect that these movies are not aimed at discerning war-historians like us at all!

[PingDit]

Did somebody call?

Master Aircrew Ping (Retd.)

[megan]

I've often thought that once the B17, P51 and Glenn Miller were in the UKHerod, don't forget the P-51 was as much British as it was USA. Developed to fill a Brit requirement and paid for with Brit cold hard cash. The name "Mustang" was even a Brit bestowal. Initially the US had very little interest in the aircraft, the two aircraft given to the US languished on the USAAF test flight line.

[Pontius Navigator]

Yes, Hollywood makes films that their audiences wish to see to make money.

As TTN says, we older citizens like the gritty war films from the 50s and 60s. In Hollywood's rush to the cash they still produce turkeys and dross - Pearl Harbour.

[Treble one]

Herod, don't forget the P-51 was as much British as it was USA. Developed to fill a Brit requirement and paid for with Brit cold hard cash. The name "Mustang" was even a Brit bestowal. Initially the US had very little interest in the aircraft, the two aircraft given to the US languished on the USAAF test flight line.

There's a reasonable amount of evidence to suggest that the decision to put a Merlin engine into the P-51 actually happened at the AFDU at the then RAF Duxford

[Could be the last?]

The US were also based out of Goxhill, P-51s for escort and protection of the Humber!

[Pontius Navigator]

‘Objective Burma’ starring Errol Flynn. My Father always referred to it as ‘Errol Flynn winning the war in Burma single handedly’.
My father too, but I think a lot of distaste was dislike of Errol Flynn arose from his not enlisting to join the war, unlike David Niven etc. However Wiki says that Flynn was medically unfit and the studio would not release the facts as it would detract from his swashbuckling image.

[M-62A3]

Goxhill (USAAF Base No. 345) was Fighter Training Base.


From "The Airfields of Lincolnshire since 1912", Blake, Hodgson and Taylor - "Goxhill was established as a fighter training base to train pilots in the procedures they would need while operating in Europe, and the formal handover of the station [from the RAF] took place in August" [1942]...... "In late 1943 it was decided to form an independent unit to train all P-38 Lightning and North American P-51 pilots for both the 8th and 9th Air Forces. Designated the 496th Fighter Training Group...."
M-62A3

[noflynomore]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b08fm2gn/look-east-evening-news-22022017

Watch from 13:20 onwards.

[Martin the Martian]

There's a reasonable amount of evidence to suggest that the decision to put a Merlin engine into the P-51 actually happened at the AFDU at the then RAF Duxford

Yes, a test pilot (whose name escapes me) who had been carrying out comparative trials between the Allison-engined Mustang and a Spitfire wrote a recommendation for a Merlin-engined Mustang, though the people at NAA had thought about it as well, and trial installations were carried out independently in the UK and the US.

Edit: c/o Wikipedia

In April 1942, the RAF's Air Fighting Development Unit (AFDU) tested the Mustang and found its performance inadequate at higher altitudes. As such, it was to be used to replace the P-40 in Army Cooperation Command squadrons, but the commanding officer was so impressed with its maneuverability and low-altitude speeds, he invited Ronnie Harker (from Rolls-Royce's Flight Test establishment) to fly it. Rolls-Royce engineers rapidly realized equipping the Mustang with a Merlin 61 engine with its two-speed two-stage supercharger would substantially improve performance. The company started converting five aircraft as the Mustang Mk X. Apart from the engine installation, which utilized custom-built engine mounts designed by Rolls-Royce and a standard 10 ft 9 in (3.28 m)-diameter four-bladed Rotol propeller from a Spitfire Mk IX,[16] the Mk X was a straightforward adaptation of the Mk I airframe, keeping the same radiator duct design. The Vice-Chief of the Air Staff, Air Marshal Sir Wilfrid R. Freeman, lobbied vociferously for Merlin-powered Mustangs, insisting two of the five experimental Mustang Xs be handed over to Carl Spaatz for trials and evaluation by the U.S. Eighth Air Force in Britain.[17] The high-altitude performance improvement was remarkable: the Mk X (serial number AM208) reached 433 mph (376 kn; 697 km/h) at 22,000 ft (6,700 m), and AL975 tested at an absolute ceiling of 40,600 ft (12,400 m).[18]

[Arclite01]

Tom Hanks people at Thorpe Abbotts yesterday........... home of the 'Bloody Hundredth'

Just 'having a look, soaking up the atmosphere' - Not commitment to filming or production in UK.

Arc

[Treble one]

Yes, a test pilot (whose name escapes me) who had been carrying out comparative trials between the Allison-engined Mustang and a Spitfire wrote a recommendation for a Merlin-engined Mustang, though the people at NAA had thought about it as well, and trial installations were carried out independently in the UK and the US.

Edit: c/o Wikipedia

Yep that's it.

The old information office at Duxford (now converted to show the history of the station) was the old AFDU office. A lady popped in to visit us and when we asked if we could help she said 'yes you can show me where my old desk has gone!'

She was secretary to OC AFDU at the time. OC AFDU's office was our 'back office' at the time....

[tommee_hawk]

Remember the Memphis Belle was shot at that fenland airfield in Lincolnshire

I remember looking out of my MQ window at Honington in 1987/88 IIRC, watching a cricket match when the "Belle" and a fighter escort flew low over the station sports field - it was surprisingly emotional. Honington ATC had provided ATC services for some of the filming and we often saw fighter contrails as they fought the "war" above Suffolk.

[sandiego89]

What "U-571" and "Top Gun" weren't documentaries???? Next someone is going to tell me Captain America had no role in the battle against Hydra....;)


I imagine good things from any Spielberg/Hanks production....

[Pontius Navigator]

S89, maybe our expectations were too high. I don't think we expected TG to be any more than Hollywood meets Heavy Metal and in the same vein as Blue Thunder and True Lies. For U571 I think expectations were more along the lines of a war drama. The Great Escape film was also fiction but included cameo scenes from other documented escape stories. U571 perhaps departed too far from its faction base for informed audiences.

[Onceapilot]

Wouldn't it be good if, they could make a film as good as 12 O'clock high with modern film techniques? Hey, today there are real flying 109's and 190's to get the authenticity of the enemy/sound done properly! :ok:

OAP

[Tankertrashnav]

Just been listening to Desert Island Discs with the military historian Sir Anthony Beevor. He said his wife refuses to watch war films with him because he is constantly "grinding his teeth" over the historical inaccuracies. He said a particularly bad example was Valkyrie, the film about the Hitler assassination plot, with Tom Cruise "saluting like a GI". He described the film as "dreadful"!

[XV490]

The new TV series has already completed some scenes, including an hour-long sequence depicting the infamous Schweinfurt/Regensburg mission in August 1943 and focusing on the action inside two B-17s of the 100th Bomb Group.
Expect it to be along the lines of the opening of 'Saving Private Ryan' – i.e., more action than words.
As far as I know, the name of the series has yet to be confirmed. 'The Mighty Eighth' was a term coined by British author Roger A Freeman in 1970 for his first book on the subject.

[Martin the Martian]

Does anybody else remember We'll Meet Again from the early 1980s? All available on YouTube, with some nice flying from an unpainted Sally B and rather a lot of actors who went on to bigger things.

[Danny42C]

Who remembers: "The Lives of a Bengal Lancer" (1935 film, saw it as a boy of 13-14. Very impressed). My Dad (an old soldier born in India) said the Army detail was mostly correct.

Was told that it was Hitler's favourite film (which is not much of a recommendation).

Wiki has all the detail.

D.

[STN Ramp Rat]

There are plenty of stories, I was fortunate enough to be at the 70th Anniversary of Stansted Airport in 2013 when Lt. Edward William Horn, who was one of the first based pilots spoke.

in the space of 15 minutes he described

being based at Stansted aged just 19,

being sick and missing a mission in which his aircraft was shot down with no survivors

being allocated another aircraft and crew and getting shot down over France

his time at Stalag Luft III which started two months after the "great Escape"

being force marched into Germany when Poland was liberated by the Russians

Being bombed by Allied forces who thought they were German Infantry.

Being liberated By General Patton.

He was only 21 by this stage and had more stories than most people would have in a lifetime.

344th bomb group : Lt. Edward William Horn 344th BG 497th BS (http://shopwornangel.imaginarynumber.net/2nd-lt-edward-william-horn-344th-bg-497th-bs/)

hearing him talk was a humbling experience and will be something that stays with me for the rest of my life.

I would have thought the difficulty would be cramming all that into 10 episodes.

[XV490]

It would appear that the former RAF Abingdon (Dalton Barracks) is being used for filming of the new Hanks/Spielberg-produced TV series Masters of the Air (or whatever it ends up being titled).

New structures include a period watch office, which will presumably replicate the OTU-spec tower at Thorpe Abbotts, where the series' subject unit, the 100th Bomb Group, operated from.

Anyone near Abingdon got any more gen?

[PAXboy]

The village of Bledlow is their current focus:
Eastern Daily Press (https://www.edp24.co.uk/news/norfolk-signpost-spotted-on-steven-spielberg-film-set-7915078)

Wikipedia tells us:Bledlow is a village in the civil parish (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_parishes_in_England) of Bledlow-cum-Saunderton (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bledlow-cum-Saunderton) in Buckinghamshire (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buckinghamshire), England. It is about 1 1⁄2 miles (2.4 km) WSW of Princes Risborough (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Princes_Risborough), and is on the county boundary with Oxfordshire (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxfordshire).

The toponym (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toponymy) "Bledlow" is derived from Old English (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Old_English) and means "Bledda's burial mound". A 10th century document records it as Bleddanhloew; the Domesday Book (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Domesday_Book) of 1086 records it as Bledelai. A more common derivation is from "Bled-Hlaw" meaning Bloody Hill which commemorates an undated battle between Saxons and Danes.

[goldox]

Local rag just says some footpaths around the airfield/barracks are being closed for the rest of the year, and they are constructing at least one replica B-17.

[XV490]

Thanks goldox. Realism seems to be an early casualty in the shooting: Norfolk's village direction/distance signs (Eastern Daily Press picture) would have been removed for the war's duration.

[goldox]

Drove past this morning, on way to Oxford. Certainly some temporary looking buildings on the near end of the runway (portacabins it seems) but nothing remotely resembling a bomber. :)

[XV490]

The Mail (https://mol.im/a/9516351) has now revealed a reconstructed communal and HQ site at Chalfont St Giles, Bucks.

[colinwil]

They’ve been filming for it in a pub in Bray, Berkshire recently too. Signposts changed to say, eg. ‘Diss’

[cavuman1]

Way back in 1988, much of the Oscar Best Picture winner, Rain Man, was being filmed in Cincinnati. I lived a block away from the Vernon Manor Hotel, where the cast resided and several scenes were filmed. I visited "The Vernon" (where The Beatles/"Bayuls" stayed in their first American tour in 1964, but what of that?) almost every evening. The barmaid had become a friend and she made the dryest and best martini in the Midwest, and she poured me plentiful "mistakes". Can't beat free martinis, am I correct? The hotel also provided an unparalleled gratis hors d'oeuvres selection: barbecued pork ribs and chicken wings, numerous cheeses, cold cuts, crackers, and all the other things which put $$$ signs in your cardiologist's eyes. Enough for a complete dinner, and that it was for me most nights of the week.

One soft springtime eve I strolled into the hotel; Lori (my bartendress friend) had saved me my customary seat at the bar. As she shook my nectar so as not to bruise it, she gestured with her eyes and a nod of her head to look at the corner table, which was a banquet set up which might seat, say, six people. Only two were there in that darkened corner. Dustin Hoffman and Tom Cruise!

Shyness has never been my strong suit. I asked Lori to send the stars a drink and she complied, smiling with a mouth full of teeth. As she brushed against me on her way back behind the bar, she stuttered "They want you to join them for a drink!" And so I did, and not just for one.

Both men are short, five-sixish, I would guess. Both look very much as they do on celluloid. Both are intelligent and have great sense of humo(u)r. Both were generous and calm. It got drunk that night!

The high spot of the evening occurred when I excused myself and adjourned to the Gentleman's Room. As I was completing my (e)mission at the urinal, the floor above me buckled and collapsed. I was showered in gallons of malodorous liquid. Turns out that the room a floor above me was a duplicate bathroom and several of the urinals had been leaking, errr, human excretions for weeks or longer! Just my Irish luck, eh? (If it weren't for bad luck, I'd have none at all, sure an' doncha know?)

Having heard the cacophonous collapse, the management, including the very nice Orthodox Jewish brothers who owned the hotel, rushed to my aid. I was escorted to a room where I showered and changed into some decent clothing procured from the hotel's lost and found. I was offered free drinks for life! (Never a wise move if the promisee has Oirsh roots!) Before I decided on that kind offer, I returned to the banquet table and my 120 minutes of fame.

No one was there! My drinking companions must've smelled the disaster! All good things must come to an end.

Years before I had appeared in a 1983 Burt Reynolds flic. Unlike Dustin, I did not win the Oscar for Best Actor! Yet there is a moral to my tale and it is this: The population of Abingdon, Bledlow, and surrounds need to be very careful. Hollywood will tear a place up, and you never know what's gonna hit ya when the ceiling caves in! ;)

https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/220x346/rain_man_poster_eaf64b642c2c1b819b52d3a18124d024f09c0d3b.jpg

- Ed

[XV490]

They’ve been filming for it in a pub in Bray, Berkshire recently too. Signposts changed to say, eg. ‘Diss’
One of Heston Blumenthal's, presumably? The Crown looks like it hasn't changed much in 80 years.

[ORAC]

Filming for Masters of the Air has started ? Alert 5 (http://alert5.com/2021/04/30/filming-for-masters-of-the-air-has-started/#more-88552)

Filming for Masters of the Air has started

The anticipated sequel for Band of Brothers miniseries, Masters of the Air, has started filming in Britain.

Director Cary Fukunaga disclosed on Instagram that the first week of filming was done on Apr. 23.

Executive producers Tom Hanks and Steven Spielberg built an air base set in Buckinghamshire for the filming.

For more information, hit the Source below

Source (https://www.ladbible.com/entertainment/tv-and-film-band-of-brothers-sequel-masters-of-the-air-has-started-filming-20210428)

https://youtu.be/vvLpOGG_3mw

[DaveReidUK]

Newland Park, Chalfont St Peter - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newland_Park,_Chalfont_St_Peter)

[goldox]

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1033x732/abingdon_searchlights_b9123e457b6a5b09bacd86aabccf50e53a066b e6.jpg
Searchlights over Abingdon.

Drove past old RAF Abingdon (Dalton Barracks) Friday evening on way home from oop north.
Saw powerful searchlights and flashes, by the time I got home there was qute a display going on.
Grabbed this pic from bedroom window!
Looked like they were also flashing bursts of light off of the clouds, I guess to mimic bomb explosions or flak?
Lots of bangs crashes and explosions Saturday evening too!

[XV490]

Playtone, the production firm behind the nine-episode series, says it will be shown on Apple TV "in the spring" – one insider suggesting it will run from the end of March till the end of May (possibly on Memorial Day).

[tdracer]

"Masters of the Air" - a nine-episode TV mini-series is scheduled to debut the 26th of January, 2024 on Apple TV.
Masters of the Air TV Series to Premier January 2024 on Apple TV (commemorativeairforce.org) (https://commemorativeairforce.org/news/masters-of-the-air-tv-series-to-premier-january-2024-on-apple-tv?mc_cid=1f51b8e15c&mc_eid=711e471785)
Based on Donald L. Miller’s book of the same name and scripted by John Orloff, “Masters of the Air” follows the men of the 100th Bomb Group (the “Bloody Hundredth”) as they conduct perilous bombing raids over Nazi Germany and grapple with the frigid conditions, lack of oxygen and sheer terror of combat conducted at 25,000 feet in the air.
It's being done by the team of Steven Spielberg, Tom Hanks, and Gary Goetzman - the same team who did "Band of Brothers" and "Pacific".
IF it's half as good as "Band of Brothers" it should be a must see...

[GlobalNav]

"Masters of the Air" - a nine-episode TV mini-series is scheduled to debut the 26th of January, 2024 on Apple TV.
Masters of the Air TV Series to Premier January 2024 on Apple TV (commemorativeairforce.org) (https://commemorativeairforce.org/news/masters-of-the-air-tv-series-to-premier-january-2024-on-apple-tv?mc_cid=1f51b8e15c&mc_eid=711e471785)

It's being done by the team of Steven Spielberg, Tom Hanks, and Gary Goetzman - the same team who did "Band of Brothers" and "Pacific".
IF it's half as good as "Band of Brothers" it should be a must see...

I’ve read the book, a very long book, a very good book. But there are many very difficult to read parts. It’s the fullest story of the Allied Air War I know of, including the bravery, the difficult moral decisions, the suffering, the deaths, the betrayals and brutality against them. Hard to imagine how everything could possibly be in the series, but the story of these courageous airmen deserves to be told.

[tdracer]

I’ve read the book, a very long book, a very good book. But there are many very difficult to read parts. It’s the fullest story of the Allied Air War I know of, including the bravery, the difficult moral decisions, the suffering, the deaths, the betrayals and brutality against them. Hard to imagine how everything could possibly be in the series, but the story of these courageous airmen deserves to be told.
I was unfamiliar with the book prior to hearing about this mini-series - good to hear they are using good source material.
I read the book "Band of Brothers" (granted, after I'd first seen the HBO mini-series). Although there are obviously a few discrepancies (and even with a 9-hour miniseries, they couldn't include everything), it's remarkably faithful to the book.
IMHO, "Band of Brothers" is one of the best - it not the best - WW II movie series ever. "Pacific" was good, but (again, IMHO) not nearly as good as "BoB".
I hope the team can return to their BoB form for this one.

[NutLoose]

One of the early trailers. They changed the name BTW.

https://youtu.be/PhmFFtjB2qY?si=OLlFCWVBUZkNnEhr

[XV490]

One of the early trailers. They changed the name BTW.

https://youtu.be/PhmFFtjB2qY?si=OLlFCWVBUZkNnEhr
​​​
That was just 'click bait' from a chancer hoping to cash in on the early curiosity about the TV series, which was first mooted by HBO several years ago.

The Apple TV series will concentrate mainly on the Eighth Air Force's 'Bloody' 100th Bomb Group (based at Thorpe Abbotts near Diss) during a period of heavy losses of its B-17Fs in the autumn of 1943.

Donald Miller's book, which concentrates on members of the 100BG, is published in the UK with the title Eighth Air Force and also covers the history of the whole force from its arrival in Britain in 1942 until VE-Day.
​​

[[email protected]]

It's been a long time coming to the screens, my youngest son was an extra in it and the filming was 2 years ago.

I think, like with many streaming services, they have been eking out their products due to the writers and actors strike in the US.

[dead_pan]

Big ol' production at Abingdon, wasn't it?

Have to say it doesn't look that promising from the trailer, gritty yes, but that CGI is gonna ruin it for me.

[NutLoose]

Yes, filmed at Abingdon and they built some replica B-17 too.

https://www.oxfordmail.co.uk/news/19213447.tom-hanks-steven-spielberg-film-world-war-two-plane-spotted-oxfordshire-set/

https://www.dailymail.co.uk/tvshowbiz/article-9516351/Steven-Spielberg-builds-5M-World-War-II-Airforce-base-Berkshire-Masters-Air.html

[Snowbound 612]

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/768x445/goggles1_5b488630ae3720725db2c61709cd1bd838128a7c.jpg
My buddy showed me this photo last week of the goggles his dad was wearing along with his flak helmet. Lt Alan Gould was a B17 bombardier with the 338th Bomb Squadron, 96th Bomb group. You can see a slight dent near the right bridge of the nose. An 8 mm round took out the right lens and was recovered in his helmet. Good illustration of what you see in that old trailer. They will eventually be donated to a museum.

[langleybaston]

https://cimg5.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/768x445/goggles1_5b488630ae3720725db2c61709cd1bd838128a7c.jpg
My buddy showed me this photo last week of the goggles his dad was wearing along with his flak helmet. Lt Alan Gould was a B17 bombardier with the 338th Bomb Squadron, 96th Bomb group. You can see a slight dent near the right bridge of the nose. An 8 mm round took out the right lens and was recovered in his helmet. Good illustration of what you see in that old trailer. They will eventually be donated to a museum.

Thank you but 8mm? I think not.

[NutLoose]

Some of the aircraft guns used as defensive were 7.9mm, so yes is possible LB

​​https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_weapons_of_military_aircraft_of_Germany_during_World _War_II


The Messerschmitt Bf-110G was a very successful night fighter. With a top speed of 342 mph and a maximum ceiling of 26,000 feet, it could easily get among a formation of bombers. Equipped with 2 x 30mm and 2 x 20mm cannon with a 7.9mm machine gun, it also carried a formidable weapons load.


https://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/world-war-two/the-bombing-campaign-of-world-war-two/german-night-fighters/

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Thank you but 8mm? I think not.
​​​​​​As nutty points out above, 8mm Mauser (actually 7.92mm) was the standard German full bore rifle/mg round for the war (as well as a considerable amount of time beforehand!).

[Snowbound 612]

Can only pass that my buddy stated it was an 8mm round which ended up in dad's helmet. Was it a 7.92 round or shrapnel? Just relating the story. He flew 32 missions. I routinely shoot my mauser and other milsurp rifles. Amazed at the mess of a round after hitting a half inch armor plate target. Very informative video here. B-17 Bomber Crew Flak Armor - YouTube

[Snowbound 612]

Buddy just informed me the round did not stop so was not recovered. His father believed it was 8mm.

[langleybaston]

My apologies ................. I failed to allow for rounding of rounds!

Plus I am old school Imperial measure forced into metric and easily confused.

Memo to self: WIND NECK IN.

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Official Trailer from Apple TV dropped today

[snapper41]

Having watched the trailer, I’m not sure about accuracy. It seems they are showing red-tailed P-51s which indicates the 332nd Fighter Group aka the Tuskegee Airmen. The 332nd served in Italy, not England.

[beamer]

I thought Band of Brothers was a great watch, Pacific less so. I just hope that this eagerly awaited series is worthwhile and not spoilt by too much CGI and actors who simply do not look the part.

[Geriaviator]

The movie aircrews have superhuman powers in that they don't require oxygen masks at 18000 feet and more where the B-17s usually operated, and they don't need intercom as they can hear one another despite engines which bellow even louder than actors in American war movies. Fond memories of many hours in Hastings/Halifax include shouting directly into the ear until intercom was plugged in, the noise of big pistons is incredible.

CGI etc cannot approach William Wyler's original Memphis Belle of 1943 with its action sequences shot during real life raids.

[Ninthace]

...
CGI etc cannot approach William Wyler's original Memphis Belle of 1943 with its action sequences shot during real life raids.

Costly on cast, crew and props though!

[stevef]

I just hope that this eagerly awaited series is worthwhile and not spoilt by too much CGI and actors who simply do not look the part.
Ah, yes - the predilection for casting pretty boy protagonists in action movies. The 1990 Memphis Belle remake is a good example of unauthenticity and shallow characters in my opinion. That was a one-off watch for me. Likewise The Flight of the Phoenix remake. Appalling ... the list goes on.

[typerated]

Ah, yes - the predilection for casting pretty boy protagonists in action movies. The 1990 Memphis Belle remake is a good example of unauthenticity and shallow characters in my opinion. That was a one-off watch for me. Likewise The Flight of the Phoenix remake. Appalling ... the list goes on.

I saw the trailer and it looks utterly unwatchable.
Hype and over dramatised to a painful degree.
It would be so much more powerful if the program was not trying to squeeze drama and emotion out of every second - might even allow a bit of accuracy to sneak in too.
I certainly won't be watching it

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Second trailer dropped

[GlobalNav]

I saw the trailer and it looks utterly unwatchable.
Hype and over dramatised to a painful degree.
It would be so much more powerful if the program was not trying to squeeze drama and emotion out of every second - might even allow a bit of accuracy to sneak in too.
I certainly won't be watching it

I recommend the book, though, not dramatized, but all too real, even painful to consider completely what these young airmen experienced. Proud of that they accomplished what they did.

[pr00ne]

I saw the trailer and it looks utterly unwatchable.
Hype and over dramatised to a painful degree.
It would be so much more powerful if the program was not trying to squeeze drama and emotion out of every second - might even allow a bit of accuracy to sneak in too.
I certainly won't be watching it

So, you will have no idea at all what it is like will you?

This is not a documentary, it is a creative piece of fiction based around real events. It is designed to entertain people with next to no knowledge or real interest in WW2 aircraft, around the world in 2023.

[bobward]

From my perspective, trailers only show the 'high' spots of film or serial. They are made to attract viewers who probably didn't know the main course was even coming. Like life, many productions are lng periods of routine, spiced with the odd exciting bit.

On another tack, has anyone seen the trailer for series 2 of Vigil? After their stunning success with series one (alleged life on a nuclear submarine) seeing how they portray life on what looks like a UPAS unit might raise a smile or two. However, since the mistress of misery (Surranne Jones) is a main character, don't get your hopes up.

[GlobalNav]

So, you will have no idea at all what it is like will you?

This is not a documentary, it is a creative piece of fiction based around real events. It is designed to entertain people with next to no knowledge or real interest in WW2 aircraft, around the world in 2023.

Well, if that’s the intent, then it is completely out of tune with the book, and even with the Band of Brothers mini series. To appreciate the effort, the suffering and sacrifice, the uncertainties and disappointments, yet the courage and sometimes the exhilaration of success, but at great cost, is what I would hope for. Perhaps the series is much better than the trailer would lead us to believe. If not, it will be a black mark on Spielberg’s otherwise stellar portfolio.

War is not a football game. It is sometimes necessary, fraught with fog, errors, tedium, human faults, and yet the demonstration by many of duty, honor, country in both conspicuous and inconspicuous ways. You take casualties and still press on, even when outcome is uncertain, because the ultimate costs of defeat are unacceptable. It is possible for a work of fiction to help us see that, even better than a documentary newsreel.

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Well, if that’s the intent, then it is completely out of tune with the book, and even with the Band of Brothers mini series. To appreciate the effort, the suffering and sacrifice, the uncertainties and disappointments, yet the courage and sometimes the exhilaration of success, but at great cost, is what I would hope for. Perhaps the series is much better than the trailer would lead us to believe. If not, it will be a black mark on Spielberg’s otherwise stellar portfolio.

War is not a football game. It is sometimes necessary, fraught with fog, errors, tedium, human faults, and yet the demonstration by many of duty, honor, country in both conspicuous and inconspicuous ways. You take casualties and still press on, even when outcome is uncertain, because the ultimate costs of defeat are unacceptable. It is possible for a work of fiction to help us see that, even better than a documentary newsreel.
Given a bet between a) a trailer being hyped up to attract the maximum audience possible and b) Spielberg + hanks doing anything other than treating the subject with the respect it deserves, I genuinely am amazed that anyone thinks b) is remotely likely given their track record.

[BEagle]

For those of us who cannot access AppleTV (neither on a NOW TV stick, nor a Panasonic not-so-smart TV), is this series likely to be released on DVD?

[MG]

For those of us who cannot access AppleTV (neither on a NOW TV stick, nor a Panasonic not-so-smart TV), is this series likely to be released on DVD?

What’s a DVD?

[dfv8]

For those of us who cannot access AppleTV (neither on a NOW TV stick, nor a Panasonic not-so-smart TV), is this series likely to be released on DVD?

You may be able to to enrol with AppleTV for one month free which will enable you to watch the programme. Just unsubscribe after the month.

I've just changed my mobile 'phone contract and have an offer for same for three months.

[PPRuNeUser0211]

You may be able to to enrol with AppleTV for one month free which will enable you to watch the programme. Just unsubscribe after the month.

I've just changed my mobile 'phone contract and have an offer for same for three months.
Only advice on that (assuming they're releasing weekly) is clearly to wait until the whole thing is available!

[DogTailRed2]

​​​​​​As nutty points out above, 8mm Mauser (actually 7.92mm) was the standard German full bore rifle/mg round for the war (as well as a considerable amount of time beforehand!).
Didn't the Me109 have 7.62 machine guns? (as well as cannon et al).

[sycamore]

DTR2,`WIKI` has the answers....

[DogTailRed2]

DTR2,`WIKI` has the answers....
It was a rhetorical answer to post #10 but whatever.

[tdracer]

For those of us who cannot access AppleTV (neither on a NOW TV stick, nor a Panasonic not-so-smart TV), is this series likely to be released on DVD?
Sorry, but DVD/BluRay release is unlikely (at least not for a long time) - for whatever reason (and unlike other providers like HBO), Apple doesn't routinely release their content for DVD/BluRay release.
I picked up a copy of 'Greyhound' a while back off ebay, although I'm reasonably sure it was bootleg. 'Greyhound' did finally show up on DVD from Amazon, but it took several years...

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Didn't the Me109 have 7.62 machine guns? (as well as cannon et al).
Seems bizarrely hard to find a 'credible' reference but Britannica (https://www.britannica.com/technology/Bf-109) (and fwiw Wikipedia) have the machine gun armament as MG17 in 8mm (7.92mm) Mauser seemingly upgraded later (not 100% clear but probably BF109G) to 12.7mm (50cal), both alongside 20mm canon.

[GlobalNav]

Given a bet between a) a trailer being hyped up to attract the maximum audience possible and b) Spielberg + hanks doing anything other than treating the subject with the respect it deserves, I genuinely am amazed that anyone thinks b) is remotely likely given their track record.
Well, without prejudging, I think Spielberg and Hanks have a gtreat track record and as a veteran and son of one appreciate the respect with which they treat the subject.

[GeeRam]

Didn't the Me109 have 7.62 machine guns? (as well as cannon et al).

Early E and F models did have 7.92mm MG17 machine guns fitted, as did very early version of the Fw190, but by the time the USAAF started its missions in earnest in 1943, the Bf109 and Fw190 in service were all fitted with various combinations of the 13mm MG131 heavy mg, and MG151 20mm cannons.

[typerated]

This is not a documentary, it is a creative piece of fiction based around real events. It is designed to entertain people with next to no knowledge or real interest in WW2 aircraft, around the world in 2023.

Yes I know this.

And your point is?

[Kent Based]

Early E and F models did have 7.92mm MG17 machine guns fitted, as did very early version of the Fw190, but by the time the USAAF started its missions in earnest in 1943, the Bf109 and Fw190 in service were all fitted with various combinations of the 13mm MG131 heavy mg, and MG151 20mm cannons.

The 13mm was reportedly adopted as a counter to the large US bombers. They replaced the 7.92mm in the Bf109 from spring 1943, and those in the Fw190 models in November 1943. Until those new models were available in numbers, then the older 7.92mm were still around. The 338th was first in action in May 1943, so plenty of 7.92mm around for some time still, to have hit those goggles.

[DogTailRed2]

The 13mm was reportedly adopted as a counter to the large US bombers. They replaced the 7.92mm in the Bf109 from spring 1943, and those in the Fw190 models in November 1943. Until those new models were available in numbers, then the older 7.92mm were still around. The 338th was first in action in May 1943, so plenty of 7.92mm around for some time still, to have hit those googles.
There's also the rear mounted gun on the Me110 among others.

[Buster Hyman]

Just watched the first 2 episodes & there was an emphasis on the night time RAF area bombing vs USAAF precision daylight bombing. The take away being that the USAAF were more careful... 🤔 Now, I'm clearly no expert & happy to learn something new, but I always thought that it was a skill issue more than anything. I have no basis or evidence of that, merely hearsay but could someone with a better grasp of the different tactics be able to 'educate me' here please?

As a TV show, it was okay. A bit slow, a bit surreal when compared to BoB & TP but I'll continue watching.

[GlobalNav]

Just watched the first 2 episodes & there was an emphasis on the night time RAF area bombing vs USAAF precision daylight bombing. The take away being that the USAAF were more careful... 🤔 Now, I'm clearly no expert & happy to learn something new, but I always thought that it was a skill issue more than anything. I have no basis or evidence of that, merely hearsay but could someone with a better grasp of the different tactics be able to 'educate me' here please?

As a TV show, it was okay. A bit slow, a bit surreal when compared to BoB & TP but I'll continue watching.
Well, the presents it as sort of a debate between biased crewmembers, from their personal point of view, not a scientific analysis. The Brits, disrespectfully claiming that daylight bombing is suicide, the Yanks, just as disrespectfully, saying that hazardous as it is, it’s better to aim at a military target and hit it. The crews seemed to see it as a trade off between accuracy and survival. In truth, I suppose accuracy in any case was not very high, and by the end of the war both air forces bombed rather indiscriminately.

Having read the book, and other works as well, I think the show did capture the extreme dangers, fog of war, unfortunate circumstances, youth of the crews, bearing the loss of friends and the courage it takes to climb on board the next flight.

[snapper41]

Just watched the first 2 episodes & there was an emphasis on the night time RAF area bombing vs USAAF precision daylight bombing. The take away being that the USAAF were more careful... 🤔 Now, I'm clearly no expert & happy to learn something new, but I always thought that it was a skill issue more than anything. I have no basis or evidence of that, merely hearsay but could someone with a better grasp of the different tactics be able to 'educate me' here please?

As a TV show, it was okay. A bit slow, a bit surreal when compared to BoB & TP but I'll continue watching.

USAAF ‘precision bombing’ was a myth. The Norden bomb sight was not all it was cracked up to be, especially in cloudy Northern Europe where, no matter how good the sight, you still needed to see the target. So, only the lead bombers were given the sight and the rest dropped when they dropped. Given that a formation of a few hundred bombers could be strung out over a sizeable chunk of airspace, then bombs were not dropped in the pickle barrel as they claimed. Because they could not do pinpoint bombing, the USAAF followed our lead and introduced pathfinders to mark the target. They also bombed through cloud using H2S/H2X which was a very rudimentary radar, therefore again bombs went far and wide. USAAF crews were banned from calling it ‘blind bombing’, which is exactly what it was. The USAAF carried out area bombing just as the RAF did - the only difference is that we admitted it.

I watched both episodes last night. Cheesy and cliched, with the usual Spielberg/Hanks mocking of the British. The RAF personnel in the pub were classic stereotypes.

[ancientaviator62]

IMHO there was no difference as although the US had the Norden bombsight which worked very well in testing in the USA, it did not work as well in the very different ETO.
Later as I understand it the US adopted bombing on a leaders signal. Given that the formations could be many miles long it is not conducive to precision bombing.
Perhaps the Dams raid was one of the first precision bombing raids of the war.
Pic is of a B17 we visited at Palm Springs Museum. My wife was appalled at how narrow it was inside and very emotional thinking of all those brave men risking their lives.
https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x709/b_17_palm_springs_start_9d0d79028b7b3c106651a14f9960461d6977 8cac.jpg
.

[Downwind.Maddl-Land]

"The Brits precision-bombed area targets by night, the Yanks area-bombed precision targets by day." The nett results were exactly the same; that's all the technology allowed in those days. Mind you: Sorpe dam after being visited by IX Sqn in 1944 using TALLBOYs and the Mk XIV bombsight:
https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/700x524/sorpe1_5fdee31db842a87640c2cbbf931df5f187d6f061.jpg

[DogTailRed2]

The RAF attack on Dresden was followed up by a USAAF attack. Even in daylight with target still smoking some 200 aircraft managed to bomb Prague. This is not a slur on the Americans, the RAF managed to miss one city by 95 miles, but more an indication of the infancy of technology and the inevitable fog of war.

[Geriaviator]

One of the best books on the subject is Combat Crew by John Comer. Their B-17s were stacked in threes to concentrate defensive fire in formations about a mile long. In front was the leader, with deputies positioned to take over if he was hit. When the lead bombardier opened his bomb doors, the others followed suit, watching for his bombs to fall, when they too pressed the button, the target receiving a simultaneous rain of bombs half a mile wide and one mile long. So it wasn't carpet bombing?

Did any air force match the precision of RAF attacks on the Mohne Dam, Tirpitz, vast submarine factories with 30ft of reinforced concrete, V2 and V3 weapons sites, Bielefeld viaduct which had withstood two years of conventional attacks?

As to the new movie itself, the CGI formations looked like the youngsters' video games on Tiktok. Though in fairness nobody can match William Wyler's original Memphis Belle.of 1944. This has been well restored at https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NNmYL6eoeV8

[212man]

Did any air force match the precision of RAF attacks on the Mohne Dam, Tirpitz, vast submarine factories with 30ft of reinforced concrete, V2 and V3 weapons

​​​​​​​Whats a V3? Did you mean V1 & V2?

[Geriaviator]

V3 was the long-range gun battery aligned on London which could deliver steady rain of 210lb shells per minute across the Channel. Here it is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fortress_of_Mimoyecques

[Downwind.Maddl-Land]

Whats a V3? Did you mean V1 & V2?
V3 was the designation of the long range guns located at Mimoyecques in France. Destroyed - in daylight - by 617 Sqn using TALLBOYs in another Bomber Command precision strike.

[NutLoose]

Watching the first episode now as I have Apple TV and it Is forming up to be a cracking series IMHO.

Even you have not got Apple TV I think you will find you can watch the first episode on it as a trial.

[DaveReidUK]

which could deliver steady rain of 210lb shells per minute

What does that mean ?

[Flyingmac]

What does that mean ?

Rate of fire claimed to be ten per minute. We'll never know.

[Sam W]

Geri wrote:

When the lead bombardier opened his bomb doors, the others followed suit, watching for his bombs to fall, when they too pressed the button, the target receiving a simultaneous rain of bombs half a mile wide and one mile long. So it wasn't carpet bombing?

No it wasn’t, when you compare it to the RAF only being able to get 1 in 3 bombs dropped within FIVE miles of the target before the pathfinders it has to be considered precision for the time. Often the average 8th groups matched the accuracy of the most highly trained RAF specialists as the destruction of the FW plant at Marienburg demonstrated.

​​​​​​​

[tdracer]

Sorry to add fuel to the tread drift of bombing accuracy - in the book "Inferno", the author (Joe Pappalardo) claims that a post war study comparing bombing accuracy between the RAF and the USAAF (IIRC, it was percentage of bombs within a given distance of the 'target'), the USAAF was better, but the difference was slight - as in about 1%.
According to what I've also read, the Norden had the capability of being very accurate, but that was with manufacturing tolerances what were impossible to meet in the sort of mass production that was required and with more knowledge of ambient conditions (especially wind speeds) than the bombers could possibly have in wartime.

[beamer]

Well, I watched the two episodes last night and to be honest I was thoroughly underwhelmed. I know it’s a drama, based on fact, which at the end of the day is supposed to be entertainment and therefore those of us with some understanding of the valiant efforts of the 8th Air Force and some knowledge of aviation are not really the target audience.

I found the storyline thin and too many of the leading characters looking very unconvincing. The CGI was poor, the scenes inside the aircraft much better.
The stereotype token RAF scene was pathetic rather like Nigel Pargetter appearing as a
senior Parachute Regiment Officer in Band of Brothers ! I did quite enjoy the crosswind landing scene into Greenland which made me feel rather nostalgic……….

Hopefully a disappointing start which will lead to improvement in future episodes.

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Sorry to add fuel to the tread drift of bombing accuracy - in the book "Inferno", the author (Joe Pappalardo) claims that a post war study comparing bombing accuracy between the RAF and the USAAF (IIRC, it was percentage of bombs within a given distance of the 'target'), the USAAF was better, but the difference was slight - as in about 1%.
According to what I've also read, the Norden had the capability of being very accurate, but that was with manufacturing tolerances what were impossible to meet in the sort of mass production that was required and with more knowledge of ambient conditions (especially wind speeds) than the bombers could possibly have in wartime.
The United States Strategic Bombing Study Download here (https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&opi=89978449&url=https://www.airuniversity.af.edu/Portals/10/AUPress/Books/B_0020_SPANGRUD_STRATEGIC_BOMBING_SURVEYS.pdf&ved=2ahUKEwiEgMa1yP6DAxX4UkEAHc8VAMQQFnoECBYQAQ&usg=AOvVaw1uIKGrG5yXQB5O4Cij93B9)

[NutLoose]

Well, I watched the two episodes last night and to be honest I was thoroughly underwhelmed. I know it’s a drama, based on fact, which at the end of the day is supposed to be entertainment and therefore those of us with some understanding of the valiant efforts of the 8th Air Force and some knowledge of aviation are not really the target audience.

I found the storyline thin and too many of the leading characters looking very unconvincing. The CGI was poor, the scenes inside the aircraft much better.
The stereotype token RAF scene was pathetic rather like Nigel Pargetter appearing as a
senior Parachute Regiment Officer in Band of Brothers ! I did quite enjoy the crosswind landing scene into Greenland which made me feel rather nostalgic……….

Hopefully a disappointing start which will lead to improvement in future episodes.

I find series always are when they are building up. I cannot fault the CGI, it’s one off my pet hates when people slag it off because most of the time they do not realise they are watching it.

[cynicalint]

An interesting article on the pros and cons of the RAF approach and the USAF approach to bombing. The Norden bomb sight was quite accurate at 1500' and lower, but as would be expected rose considerably with increased altitude.

The Allied Rift on Strategic Bombing | Air & Space Forces Magazine (airandspaceforces.com) (https://www.airandspaceforces.com/article/the-allied-rift-on-strategic-bombing/)

On average, in 1939, only a third of the bombs hit within five miles of the aiming point. In the Ruhr Valley—Germany’s industrial heartland, defended by guns and fighters—strikes were even less accurate.

“ In 1943, rather than dropping bombs into pickle barrels, 8th Air Force bombardiers were having trouble hitting the broad side of a barn,” said historian Stephen L. McFarland of Air University. Average CEP soared to 1,200 feet.​​​​​​​

[sandiego89]

2 episodes in and I liked. it. I tend to be overly analytical on computer animation and aircraft details, but I told myself to just sit back and enjoy it, and I did. The interior aircraft sets and the detail, such as switches, checklists, etc. are incredible. The CGI is acceptable and the characters (from an American point of view) are fine.

[NutLoose]

Sandeigo, see

https://screenrant.com/masters-of-the-air-b17-replica-accuracy-expained/

https://www.gq-magazine.co.uk/article/masters-of-the-air-historical-accuracy

[fdr]

An interesting article on the pros and cons of the RAF approach and the USAF approach to bombing. The Norden bomb sight was quite accurate at 1500' and lower, but as would be expected rose considerably with increased altitude.

The Allied Rift on Strategic Bombing | Air & Space Forces Magazine (airandspaceforces.com) (https://www.airandspaceforces.com/article/the-allied-rift-on-strategic-bombing/)

China graph on the windscreen works from 1500'...

[snapper41]

Episode three:

’This is the largest air armada ever assembled in the history of mankind!’

Well, apart from the three RAF 1,000 bomber raids over a year earlier, all of which were bigger…

[Hamish 123]

As with all CGI of WW2 aeroplanes, the speeds they fly at look completely wrong. The ME109s flashing through the B17 formations appear to be going at phenomenal speeds, way in excess of the 350 - 400mph they were probably doing. If you look at actual footage from these battles, the German fighters are going nowhere near the speeds portrayed by CGI. I assume that they're all speeded up to add to the excitement, but it just looks wrong to me.

[Stuck On The Ground]

I enjoyed seeing the houses outside the airfield perimeter with the UPVC guttering!

Im enjoying it. The incident with the RAF in episode 2 smacks of lazy stereotyping to me, but then the target market is the US audience, not the UKs.

[sangiovese.]

I find the randomness at which crews are lost utterly terrifying. It’s telling a terrible story which needs to be retold

[GlobalNav]

As with all CGI of WW2 aeroplanes, the speeds they fly at look completely wrong. The ME109s flashing through the B17 formations appear to be going at phenomenal speeds, way in excess of the 350 - 400mph they were probably doing. If you look at actual footage from these battles, the German fighters are going nowhere near the speeds portrayed by CGI. I assume that they're all speeded up to add to the excitement, but it just looks wrong to me.
Perhaps, but keep in mind you’re viewing from a moving platform and seeing closing speeds of 600+ mph. And from the crewmen’s perspective, they were coming fast and furious.

[PPRuNeUser0211]

I enjoyed seeing the houses outside the airfield perimeter with the UPVC guttering!

Im enjoying it. The incident with the RAF in episode 2 smacks of lazy stereotyping to me, but then the target market is the US audience, not the UKs.
Easy to forget the assessment at the end where they decide the RAF are probably right...

[snapper41]

Easy to forget the assessment at the end where they decide the RAF are probably right...

But still called him an ‘RAF prick’…

[PPRuNeUser0211]

But still called him an ‘RAF prick’…
Yeah but you would in context, because aside the bombing thing he was...

[tdracer]

But still called him an ‘RAF prick’…
I have little doubt that the RAF called some of the 8th Air Force people just as bad (or worse).

[Buster Hyman]

I had no idea about the German Air to Air rockets until I saw that early trailer...and admittedly scoffed at it, but it only highlighted my ignorance of the matter. If anything, the show has taught me something. :ok:

(Aside from the old RAF vs USAAF rivalry still exists!) :E

[GlobalNav]

I have little doubt that the RAF called some of the 8th Air Force people just as bad (or worse).
Yeah something about "Over-paid, over-sexed, and over here, (again)."

[beamer]

I am reminded of the John Mills movie ‘The Way to the Stars’ in which the over confident and cocksure 8th Air Force learnt the hard way. Twelve o’ Clock High is worth another look too…….

[NutLoose]

Originally Posted by Hamish 123
As with all CGI of WW2 aeroplanes, the speeds they fly at look completely wrong. The ME109s flashing through the B17 formations appear to be going at phenomenal speeds, way in excess of the 350 - 400mph they were probably doing. If you look at actual footage from these battles, the German fighters are going nowhere near the speeds portrayed by CGI. I assume that they're all speeded up to add to the excitement, but it just looks wrong to me.

Perhaps, but keep in mind you’re viewing from a moving platform and seeing closing speeds of 600+ mph. And from the crewmen’s perspective, they were coming fast and furious.


Wartime recordings

https://youtu.be/olmflqg4hsU?feature=shared

[OJ 72]

Very interesting, and indeed poignant footage, Nutty. Although the 'gun' sounds detracted from the overall somewhat - more .303 than .5"!

A general query to 'the body of the Kirk', if I may...although the elevation/depression of the twin .5s in the B-17s rear 'turret' (sic) seems adequate, what was their range of movement in azimuth like? Were they fixed fore-aft, or was there a bit of lateral movement available?

The B-17 rear armament configuration appears prima facie to be less effective than the standard RAF heavy bomber rear turret, or even that of the B-24!

[tdracer]

Very interesting, and indeed poignant footage, Nutty. Although the 'gun' sounds detracted from the overall somewhat - more .303 than .5"!

A general query to 'the body of the Kirk', if I may...although the elevation/depression of the twin .5s in the B-17s rear 'turret' (sic) seems adequate, what was their range of movement in azimuth like? Were they fixed fore-aft, or was there a bit of lateral movement available?

The B-17 rear armament configuration appears prima facie to be less effective than the standard RAF heavy bomber rear turret, or even that of the B-24!
Nearly all those films from WW II were silent - sounds were dubbed in later and I doubt the people who did that knew the difference in sound between a 30 cal and 50 cal.
The tail guns were pedestal mounted - similar to the waist gunners (but obviously a twin instead of single 50) so range of fire was pretty good - plus both the top turret and bottom ball turret could fire aft (obviously with care not to hit their own tail). IIFC, the RAF didn't use 50's, instead going for 30 cal - 50's were far more effective in arial combat.

According to one book I read on the 8th Air Force, it was calculated that it took the fire from 10 50 cals to discourage an attacking fighter (not to shoot it down, just to discourage him from pressing the attack home). Hence the empasis on tight formation flying.
The weak point of the earlier B-17 wasn't so much the tail as head-on - which is why a 'chin turret' with dual 50 cals showed up on (IIRC) the "G" model.

[dduxbury310]

If you look at about 4.50 on the last post (B-17s over Europe) there appears to be one of the "Escort" B-17s (cannot recall their actual designation at the moment, something like YB-39?) with what appears to be TWO ball turrets hanging underneath. I presume this image was taken by a member of the Luftwaffe?

[PPRuNeUser0211]

If you look at about 4.50 on the last post (B-17s over Europe) there appears to be one of the "Escort" B-17s (cannot recall their actual designation at the moment, something like YB-39?) with what appears to be TWO ball turrets hanging underneath. I presume this image was taken by a member of the Luftwaffe?
I think it's a G model with the nose turret - slightly odd angle and depressed guns. The YB-40 programme only fitted twin top turrets and the Bendix nose turret, but not twin ball turrets.

[NutLoose]

The G introduced the unmanned nose turret to counter the Germans use of head on attacks, where the earlier B17’s were poorly defended.

[El Grifo]

In such a crowded sky amongst all of the chaos, surely some of the B17 formation must have been hit by their own gunners.

Was that in fact ever an issue ?

El Grifo

[PPRuNeUser0211]

The G introduced the unmanned nose turret to counter the Germans use of head on attacks, where the earlier B17’s were poorly defended.
I think (correct me if I'm wrong) YB-40 pre-dated the G, but the G "mainstreamed" several YB-40 innovations including the nose turret?

[OJ 72]

Not wishing to be pedantic, but...:rolleyes: :8 Was the B-17G 'Nose Turret' not more properly called the 'Chin Turret'?

[Dak Mechanic]

Grabbed Masters of the Air on Audible - all 25 hours of it.

All three TV episodes are dealt with before chapter one even begins, and episode 4 (if it deals with the Munster raid) will be episode 3 turned up to eleven. Don't read/listen to the forward if you don't want spoilers!

Edit: I picked up the book to see why the TV series decided that the 389th BG was a B17 group early in Ep1 - sat as I am next door to Hethel airfield every day and well aware that the Sky Scorpions operated the B24 (ok, I'm a geek)

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Not wishing to be pedantic, but...:rolleyes: :8 Was the B-17G 'Nose Turret' not more properly called the 'Chin Turret'?
You are of course correct.

[El Grifo]

In such a crowded sky amongst all of the chaos, surely some of the B17 formation must have been hit by their own gunners.

Was that in fact ever an issue ?

El Grifo

No worries ! In absence of a response, I found this.
Live and learn !

"Gunners on US bombers flying in tight formations did not just spray machine gun fire all over the place trying to track fighters. The formations were designed to give clear fields of fire to the gunners, but each gunner was assigned a certain sector to cover and he only fired at targets entering his sector.

A aerial gunner who broke discipline and hit other aircraft would be removed from flight duty quickly and likely find himself as an infantry replacement. Aircrew took a dim view of undisciplined gunners."

El Grifo

[tdracer]

A aerial gunner who broke discipline and hit other aircraft would be removed from flight duty quickly and likely find himself as an infantry replacement. Aircrew took a dim view of undisciplined gunners."

El Grifo

The B-17 gunners had only enough ammo for ~60 seconds of fire (I think the top turret had a little more). While that's a lot compared to (for example) the ~14 seconds of fire for a Hurricane fighter, fighters were not in the 'fight' for hours at a time - a B-17 might be over enemy territory for 4 or 5 hours straight! So aside from the risk his fellow airman of 'undisciplined' fire, they needed use care that they didn't run out of ammo early and leave themselves defenseless against further attacks.
er

[jayteeto]

Hilarious reading here.
its a movie/series not a documentary!!

Who cares if they don’t wear masks at 18000 feet or the P51s had red tails?

Do you criticise the technique of the staff in BBCs Casualty? Or the authenticity of the Expendables? If you do, get a life.

It’s entertainment pure and simple. The audience DONT CARE if the aircraft have the wrong markings……

[NutLoose]

The B-17 gunners had only enough ammo for ~60 seconds of fire (I think the top turret had a little more). While that's a lot compared to (for example) the ~14 seconds of fire for a Hurricane fighter, fighters were not in the 'fight' for hours at a time - a B-17 might be over enemy territory for 4 or 5 hours straight! So aside from the risk his fellow airman of 'undisciplined' fire, they needed use care that they didn't run out of ammo early and leave themselves defenseless against further attacks.
er


Was that per gun or in total?

[Video Mixdown]

Hilarious reading here.
its a movie/series not a documentary!!
Who cares if they don’t wear masks at 18000 feet or the P51s had red tails?
Do you criticise the technique of the staff in BBCs Casualty? Or the authenticity of the Expendables? If you do, get a life.
It’s entertainment pure and simple. The audience DONT CARE if the aircraft have the wrong markings……
In general I agree with you about ignoring the inaccuracies and simplifications of TV and film productions and just enjoying the show, but still have reservations about historical events being depicted wrongly. They have a way of being lazily accepted as the truth in subsequent reports of those events, and pictures of actors take the place of the actual people involved. A trite example is the Home Guard/LDV - any media story about them will have pictures of the cast of Dad's Army. As enjoyable as that programme is, it is a caricature, not reality.

[SOPS]

The B-17 gunners had only enough ammo for ~60 seconds of fire (I think the top turret had a little more). While that's a lot compared to (for example) the ~14 seconds of fire for a Hurricane fighter, fighters were not in the 'fight' for hours at a time - a B-17 might be over enemy territory for 4 or 5 hours straight! So aside from the risk his fellow airman of 'undisciplined' fire, they needed use care that they didn't run out of ammo early and leave themselves defenseless against further attacks.
er
That does not seem like a lot of fire time!!!

[OJ 72]

I've done a bit of digging on line and I've found the following figures for the ammo carried on a B17-G:

305 rounds per gun (RPG) for each of the two single Cheek guns

365 RPG for each of the twin Chin Turret guns

600 RPG for each of the Waist guns

650 RPG for each of the twin Upper Turret guns

500 RPG for each of the twin Ball Turrets guns

565 RPG for each of the Twin Rear Turret (sic) guns

At approx 800 rounds per minute that's around 23 - 50 secs per gun. So, firing in short (aimed???) bursts was obviously the order of the day!!!

[Buster Hyman]

Finished the series & found it a little underwhelming. The end seemed rushed & almost like they were just ticking off a checklist of "Things you must feature in a WWII series".

I don't doubt the events, but the priorities seemed odd. The Spy, Tuskegee Airmen, the Eastern front, all just seemed rushed & underdone IMHO. Still, I'm glad the story got told.

[megan]

As with all CGI of WW2 aeroplanes, the speeds they fly at look completely wrong. The ME109s flashing through the B17 formations appear to be going at phenomenal speeds, way in excess of the 350 - 400mph they were probably doingB-17 crewmember says they flew at 160mph, so fighters had the ability to have considerable over take.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sXO5T_tNAdo&t=36s

[GlobalNav]

I had the privilege of meeting a WWII B-17 pilot yesterday who flew missions over Germany. Dick Nelms is 101 years old. Friendly, humble and lively. Same age as my father would have been. As I shook his hand, thanking him for what he did, I asked him how he was able to fly mission after mission, knowing what the last ones were like. He smiled and said, each one was like the other and he just kept going. Greatest generation? I truly believe it.

[GlobalNav]

Finished the series & found it a little underwhelming. The end seemed rushed & almost like they were just ticking off a checklist of "Things you must feature in a WWII series".

I don't doubt the events, but the priorities seemed odd. The Spy, Tuskegee Airmen, the Eastern front, all just seemed rushed & underdone IMHO. Still, I'm glad the story got told.

Perhaps the series didn’t have the literary or cinematic excellence some of us expected or hoped for.

I was hoping to be reminded how men in their teens and twenties courageously accomplished such a frightful task. Men like like you and me, not John Wayne or Gregory Peck or Tom Cruise.

As with reading the book, I was moved, my gratitude was renewed. So my humble expectations were met, and my hat is off to those who produced and acted in Masters of the Air.

[bspatz]

https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/993x709/img009_8adab8435c25c18dcc0ffae19a634657a1774ffe.jpg
Given this photo of my grandfather with a couple of colleagues I'm not so sure that Dad's Army is a trite example of the home guard!

[snapper41]

Hilarious reading here.
its a movie/series not a documentary!!

Who cares if they don’t wear masks at 18000 feet or the P51s had red tails?

Do you criticise the technique of the staff in BBCs Casualty? Or the authenticity of the Expendables? If you do, get a life.

It’s entertainment pure and simple. The audience DONT CARE if the aircraft have the wrong markings……

I do!

[DogTailRed2]

The problem with a series like `Masters if the Air` (and I have yet to see it so speaking in general terms) is that aerial warfare is relatively mundane and boring.
A ground campaign can focus on the soldiers, the combat becomes exciting but secondary. An aerial campaign is pretty much fly to target, bomb it, live or die, come home, rinse repeat.
A good example of this is `12 O'clock High` which is very clever to focus on the crews, on the people and the flying becomes secondary.
An aerial war film, series that focusses on the air war is doomed to fail.

[NutLoose]

What I found, was unlike Band of Brothers that followed easy company this had no continuity, Band of Brothers followed one unit and stuck with them, this didn’t, it chopped and changed all over the place without seeming to tie it all together in a coherent manner.
Bar that I did enjoy it, though it built up slowly then as said towards the end appeared to fly through the script ( pun intended ) leaving the story feeling unfinished.

..

[gamecock]

The end seemed rushed

Apparently the series was cut by 2 episodes due to COVID, which would go some way to explaining it.

aerial warfare is relatively mundane and boring

My thoughts exactly. No 'white of the enemies' eyes'. I had the same feeling reading Stephen Ambrose' 'The Wild Blue'
​​​​​​​

[B Fraser]

Don't forget what I consider the most fictitious military film of all times, "Top Gun". .

It certainly seems that way....

American Top Gun fighter pilot academy set up by British (telegraph.co.uk) (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/5032158/American-Top-Gun-fighter-pilot-academy-set-up-by-British.html)

[PPRuNeUser0211]

What I found, was unlike Band of Brothers that followed easy company this had no continuity, Band of Brothers followed one unit and stuck with them, this didn’t, it chopped and changed all over the place without seeming to tie it all together in a coherent manner.
Bar that I did enjoy it, though it built up slowly then as said towards the end appeared to fly through the script ( pun intended ) leaving the story feeling unfinished.

..

Nutty,

I'd say the main issue with following one unit in this case was that one unit was effectively wiped out multiple times. To be fair, "The Pacific" had a similar feeling - even though the central character was largely the same the other characters rotated quickly making it hard to get the same feel as BoB. That, again, was iirc largely to do with the casualty rate.

[jayteeto]

Had a beer on Saturday with a civvie mate who grew up next to Burtonwood.
He loved the series

[PukinDog]

It certainly seems that way....

American Top Gun fighter pilot academy set up by British (telegraph.co.uk) (https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/defence/5032158/American-Top-Gun-fighter-pilot-academy-set-up-by-British.html)

Oh the irony...attempting to call out Hollywood using an article filled with even more fantasies than the worst Hollywood script.

[Ninthace]

Accuracy and the DT are strangers to each other.

[Stuck On The Ground]

I enjoyed seeing the houses outside the airfield perimeter with the UPVC guttering!

Im enjoying it. The incident with the RAF in episode 2 smacks of lazy stereotyping to me, but then the target market is the US audience, not the UKs.


I have just finished watching the series and I haven’t changed my view on it. A ripping yarn about an American unit fighting in Europe. There is no point in getting sniffy about how the RAF was portrayed or how it was ignored in later episodes. Well done. I still think that Band of Brothers was a better show but I may go back now and binge this latest series to get a better idea of the show’s flow. And I'm looking forward to re-reading Mr Miller's book.

I am curious though; B-17Fs depicted throughput the series. Did 100BG not convert to G models?

[megan]

They did convert to the G. Serial numbers here,

https://100thbg.com/b-17-serial-numbers/

[Load Toad]

I'd recommend this Chanel and there is a playlist dedicated to Masters of the Air:

Masters of the Air; WW2 US Bombers (https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLO7SMfMqEYq4cQPDvCMxEPOmGBEOS76-X)

[PPRuNeUser0211]

I am curious though; B-17Fs depicted throughput the series. Did 100BG not convert to G models?
Yes - they didn't convert the replicas they had because largely time (reportedly) - believe they got stung in the schedule badly by COVID, though there's doubtless some cost elements there as well. I guess once you decide not to convert physical props then for consistency you probably wouldn't change CGI.

[Stuck On The Ground]

Yes - they didn't convert the replicas they had because largely time (reportedly) - believe they got stung in the schedule badly by COVID, though there's doubtless some cost elements there as well. I guess once you decide not to convert physical props then for consistency you probably wouldn't change CGI.

Thank you all for the answers.

[Load Toad]

Chin Turret

[Buster Hyman]

Apparently the series was cut by 2 episodes due to COVID, which would go some way to explaining it.
​​​​​​​
Ahh, what a shame. Still enjoyed what we got though. :ok:

[NutLoose]

Yes - they didn't convert the replicas they had because largely time (reportedly) - believe they got stung in the schedule badly by COVID, though there's doubtless some cost elements there as well. I guess once you decide not to convert physical props then for consistency you probably wouldn't change CGI.

Strange thing is, I was reading about the damaged Forts and they had prebuilt sections that could be installed for filming parts of the action then replaced back to show undamaged Forts, Surprised they never did the same with the chin turret.

[beamer]

Well, I did get sniffy about it on first watching and the portrayal of both RAF and Army Officers was pathetic. I was not impressed at all BUT then I watched it a second time around and I have to say that it certainly looked better for another look. I warmed to the four primary characters. The tangent to the Tuskegee pilots seemed ill thought out, perhaps that is down to the missing two episodes ?

One thing I missed on first look was the scene between Rosie and Croz in the mess after the formers return from being shot down. On the mantle was a Robin Hood jug very similar to the one in 12 O’ Clock High…….no doubt everyone else did see it !

[tdracer]

OK, finally got around to watching the series (I needed to replace my I-Phone, and the new one came with a complementary three-month subscription to AppleTV).
First couple episodes left me a bit cold, but it grew on me as it went, and I literally could barely wait to watch the final episode. The ended does seem rather rushed - apparently due to the two missing episodes, and the Tuskegee Airmen bit felt a little like it was forced in to make the politically correct crowd happy (although, again, that could be at least in part to the missing episodes).
Didn't realize until the ending that the main characters were based on real people - that should make a re-watch more interesting.
Too much CGI for my liking, and I agree the attacking fighters appear to be going unrealistically fast (based on the real footage I've seen) - and disappointed that they didn't 'upgrade' the B-17s to the 'G' standard.
I also don't think it's as good as Band of Brothers, but since I consider BoB to be arguably the best WWII "movie" ever, that's a pretty high bar. Put it roughly on a par with "The Pacific".
Given I've re-watched BoB countless times (I have it on Blu-Ray), I'll need to give 'Masters' another look before my AppleTV runs out.

And I'm looking forward to re-reading Mr Miller's book.
As I've not read the book, can I assume this is an endorsement that I should correct that?

[MightyGem]

Tuskegee Airmen bit felt a little like it was forced in
​​​​​​​My thought was, as the series is a true account of the 100th Bomb Group, it was to give context to their appearance in the POW camp.

[Stuck On The Ground]

OK, finally got around to watching the series (I needed to replace my I-Phone, and the new one came with a complementary three-month subscription to AppleTV).
First couple episodes left me a bit cold, but it grew on me as it went, and I literally could barely wait to watch the final episode. The ended does seem rather rushed - apparently due to the two missing episodes, and the Tuskegee Airmen bit felt a little like it was forced in to make the politically correct crowd happy (although, again, that could be at least in part to the missing episodes).
Didn't realize until the ending that the main characters were based on real people - that should make a re-watch more interesting.
Too much CGI for my liking, and I agree the attacking fighters appear to be going unrealistically fast (based on the real footage I've seen) - and disappointed that they didn't 'upgrade' the B-17s to the 'G' standard.
I also don't think it's as good as Band of Brothers, but since I consider BoB to be arguably the best WWII "movie" ever, that's a pretty high bar. Put it roughly on a par with "The Pacific".
Given I've re-watched BoB countless times (I have it on Blu-Ray), I'll need to give 'Masters' another look before my AppleTV runs out.


As I've not read the book, can I assume this is an endorsement that I should correct that?

It's a big old lump of a book and it's several years since I read it, but it makes a good companion to reading about Bomber Command.

[MightyGem]

I was hoping to be reminded how men in their teens and twenties courageously accomplished such a frightful task.
Just finished watching it and I was reminded, and wondered how they could do it day after day.

[NutLoose]

In Flypast or the Aeroplane recently they regale the tale of a flight engineer, they were limping back on finals ( Liberator) and the bomb doors were open, they were told to bail, his harness got caught up and he realised an engine was failing due to a split fuel line and they wouldn’t make it, he held both ends of the fuel line together keeping the engine running until it bellied in, he was dragged under the fuselage into the trench cut by the nose wheel and survived covered in fuel…

brave folks indeed.

[SimonK]

I wasn’t that impressed tbh and the subject matter is right up my street being a history nut. Some of it was fantastically immersive - such as the scene when the crews are all starting the engines and it switches from plane to plane through the checklist. But, a lot of the aerial combat and even some of the flying sequences looked totally artificial (which of course it was). It reminded me of Star Wars but with B17s. The characters were good though and I thought it was well acted. The Tuskagee airmen part had a feel of an add on and should be a separate dedicated series imho, as there is way too much to cover and it is so important.

I do get a bit sniffy about the needless anti-English and anti-raf scenes, which seem to be thrown in totally without any context or background. I’m reading the very wonderful book at the moment which covers these issues in a very non-partisan way, including the appalling racism of the black airmen by the whites which is ignored - probably because it would make our square jawed heroes look bad and that’s what the RAF are here for. Clearly the native brits were of their time too but the book covers how much better the African Americans were treated by us horrible brits.

So, my conclusion it’s a lazy adaptation of a wonderful book with a wholly white American bias about how wonderful they were and how useless we were. It’s a shame as it takes away from the towering achievements of the 8th AF and it’s men by needlessly elevating them at the expense of their erstwhile allies, who had been fighting and dying in large numbers for well over 2 years before they showed up. Chuck Yeager would be proud no doubt. Read the book instead.

[Deep Throat]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UCWK-O7cKvc&ab_channel=RoyalAirForce
Bomber Harris - John Thaw Full Movie (BBC 1989)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DlUi2zzS_jU&ab_channel=shay1000100

It is available with a search

[wiggy]

I do get a bit sniffy about the needless anti-English and anti-raf scenes, which seem to be thrown in totally without any context or background.

A fairly common theme in some of the work Spielberg has been associated with over the years and I suspect a case of the writing (or in this case screenwriting) for the target audience.

IMHO Stephen Ambrose did similar (and of course at he worked with Spielberg at least once).

Ambrose often appeared very balanced in his early work (sums up Britain’s situation very well in the last episode of The World at War) and his early books (Pegasus Bridge) but then realised there was mileage and probably easy money in simply parroting the lazy stereotypes about the Brits supposedly being far too keen on a stopping fighting for a cup of tea.

[SASless]

RAF Bomber Command and the USAAF 8th Air Force suffered horrendous losses as each conducted operations against the Axis Forces.

Can we not just accept that every effort to portray their service and sacrifice during the War is always going to have shortcomings and variation from actual events?

I wish the Duxford Museum footpath leading to the entrance to the American Hanger has glass panels opposite those for the American losses.

That walk is sobering as it is ....and to add the symbols of an equal loss by the RAF would an effective way to note the numbers of Men lost in the bombing campaign in Europe.

A close family friend did thirty missions as a pilot on Lancaster's and a next door neighbor did twenty five missions as a navigator on Liberators so I was blessed to have a couple of Men who could teach me about their experiences.

One was in the RCAF and the other the 8th Air Force.....both were Americans.

Hollywood is not known for its adherence to historical fact so we should factor that into our evaluation of the series and not give much weight to what it gets wrong but appreciate it done and helps us to understand what those brave Men endured during the War.

[Cinderella12]

Sasless,

Good post. 100% agree with you.

The incredible bravery of both 8th AF and Bomber Command despite the high losses was both very impressive and also very sad.

Films/telly/videos often do dispense with facts in favour of what they perceive to be high drama to ensure the product sells well. Some do recognize the reality of the military, but most don't .

[beamer]

As is almost always the case, these films are primarily made for the entertainment of the general public and not for enthusiasts of any given persuasion. Many great British productions have taken similar liberties with historical fact. I did not like Masters of the Air at first viewing though second time around I found it better. Yes, there are shortcomings with its over reliance on CGI, the screenplay is rather lazy and the eighth episode was simply odd with the inclusion of the Tuskegee airmen - maybe that is all due to the rumoured loss of two episodes. For all that I found the portrayal of the four main characters interesting and in echoes of Band of Brothers, one of the major parts was played by a British actor - Winters/Lewis and Egan/Turner. The only thing that really grated for me was the sneering portrayal of the RAF Officers.

[MightyGem]

Just watched the accompanying documentary, on the 100th, that came up after the last episode. It featured members of the 100th, including Lt Rosenburg, and the experiences that they recounted featured in the series.

[Deep Throat]

Just watched the accompanying documentary, on the 100th, that came up after the last episode. It featured members of the 100th, including Lt Rosenburg, and the experiences that they recounted featured in the series.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcf9QmItPNY&ab_channel=TheNationalWWIIMuseum

Munster Raid 30:00

https://heideblog.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/freiburg_muenster_1944_700x800.jpg?w=723

[NutLoose]

Sasless,

Good post. 100% agree with you.

The incredible bravery of both 8th AF and Bomber s/telly/videos often do dispense with facts in favour of what they perceive to be high drama to ensure the product sells well. Some do recognise the reality of the military, but most don't .

As in all forces involved, you may be unaware but they have erected a British memorial in France ahead of the 80th anniversary of the landings to show the losses of the British soldiers incurred in that area on that fateful day. Such a powerful statement while being thought provoking and somber.

https://cimg9.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1124/image_602ea360f8355aabf748191de38862a658142a2d.jpeg


https://cimg2.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1536x856/image_c64c6590f2c85f903052e606001fcf0b91e26582.jpeg

https://www.britishnormandymemorial.org/news-story/d-day-80-standing-with-giants-installation-at-memorial/

https://www.britishnormandymemorial.org/news-story/d-day-80-volunteer-for-standing-with-giants-project/

[snapper41]

I find it hard to understand why so many posters can’t fathom the inclusion of the Tuskeegee airmen in MOTA. It’s nothing to do with ‘missing episodes’ - we all know why really…

[El Grifo]

I find it hard to understand why so many posters can’t fathom the inclusion of the Tuskeegee airmen in MOTA. It’s nothing to do with ‘missing episodes’ - we all know why really…

Could you elaborate please ?
Missing episodes ??