WE177

[Treble one]

Doing some research into this weapon and whilst doing so, not only noticed the variable yields (A/B/C) and that for the B/C the C was only use by RAF Germany.


Without going into too much detail, for obvious reasons, was this essentially due to the B being a strategic weapon, and the C being a tactical weapon?


TIA
TO

[Pontius Navigator]

The lower yield (190kt) was used in Germany because of SACEURs policy. I don't know policy details but that was why the YS2/WE177B were confined to the Soviet Union.

[Treble one]

Thanks PN.


Hadn't realised that the WE177B provided such a big 'Bang'.

[99 Change Hands]

My favourite source:

nuclear-weapons.info (http://www.nuclear-weapons.info/vw.htm#WE.177)

[Treble one]

Thank you 99-I'd forgotten about that site.


Regards
TO

[LOMCEVAK]

The 'C' was also an option for the UK overland Buccaneers (208 Sqn).

[Treble one]

Thanks LOMCEVAK-as per PN's post I thought the 'C' was confined to Germany- but yes Google is your friend.

[Pontius Navigator]

Don't forget the Jaguar carried the C

[air pig]

Boscombe Down Aviation Museum at Old Sarum has an inert, sectioned WE 177C on display.

[Treble one]

IWM Duxford has a WE177 (B I think) which is displayed with TSR2 (Not the Swordfish, the other one.....)

[air pig]

TO,

There are couple at the 'secret' bunker near Nantwich in Cheshire plus a Cheveline system as well from Polaris and one at IWM North in Salford, but the BDAC at Old Sarum is the only one sectioned and considering the effect it is a remarkably small weapon.

[99 Change Hands]

There was one displayed at the National Trust site at Orford Ness in Suffolk to mark the environmental testing that was done there.

[Wokkafans]

Farnborough Air Sciences Trust has a Polaris Chevaline nose section and a WE177 on display.

FAST - Farnborough Air Sciences Trust - Farnborough Museum - Hampshire (http://www.airsciences.org.uk/)

[NutLoose]

Two on a trolley at Cosford next to the Valiant

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/1/1e/RAF_Museum_Cosford_-_DSC08456.JPG/220px-RAF_Museum_Cosford_-_DSC08456.JPG

One at Elvington too, standing up position, gave it a friendly kick after having lived through the three man principal part of my life, it had to be done..

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4151/5026629382_9a410a7e6a_b.jpg

[Exnomad]

Worked on carriage equipment for WE177, had to have higher security clearance for that.

[Treble one]

Nutloose-Duxford's WE177 is on an identical looking trolley to that at Cosford.....

[Peter G-W]

Who was the "three man principal?" All those years on Tornado and I never met him.

[salad-dodger]

Who was the "three man principal?" All those years on Tornado and I never met him.
Made me laugh, but it'll sail so far over Nut's head that he won't even see it.

S-D

[jimjim1]

Does the red can contain the Bic pen used to turn the bomb on?

As was rumoured in the papers, years ago.

[superplum]

No, BIC pens never went through the Approvals Procedure!
:cool:

[Pontius Navigator]

IIRC the red container held the umbilical cables.

[Treble one]

There was a single key I believe? There was a Newsnight feature on this several years ago-a big stink over the lack of a 'dual key' feature on the weapon?

[RAFEngO74to09]

Treble One.

WE177 did not need a "dual key" arrangement on the weapon itself because it was an entirely UK owned weapon.

Physical access to weapons was controlled iaw the provisions of Secret Document 814 (SD814) which included a "No Lone Zone" around the weapon and detailed arrangements for transfer of custodianship from storage > Weapon Loading Supervising Officer > Aircrew.

There was indeed one keyset - shown in this photo in the public domain. The key was for weapon enabling control, the allen key for setting burst and drop conditions, and a gripper device to assist removing control covers when wearing NBC IPE gloves.

Very "Heath Robinson" compared to, for instance, the contemporary US B61 which has a Permissive Action Link (PAL). It is currently planned to bring 400 x B61 up to Mod 12 standard for strategic and tactical use.

http://nuclear-weapons.info/images/kemble-keys-1w.jpg

[tartare]

Wow.
As mundane looking as that.

[RAFEngO74to09]

tartare. Yes the first time I saw one I thought it was remarkably similar to the key to my STOPLOCK car steering wheel lock arm (remember those ?).


https://images.lteplatform.com/images/products/600x600/549770021.jpg

[RAFEngO74to09]

Contemporary US PAL Controller from 1980s.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MujGv4r5P9A

[RAFEngO74to09]

B61-12 being loaded on F-15E at Nellis AFB for trials at Tonopah.

Note the use of the 1950s vintage design MJ-1 jammer for loading - still a great functional piece of kit.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FBm74WiCL1g

[BEagle]

The 'dust cap gripper' merely removed the cover over the Strike Enable Function key aperture - most people found it easier to use their fingernails. The panel under which the SEF aperture lived was secured by Dzus fasteners, hence the 'Allen key' also includes a blade for these fasteners.

The SEF key was unique to each weapon and an unauthorised key would not fit.

As with every aspect of access to a special weapon or an aircraft loaded with a special weapon, a minimum of 2 authorised people had to be present when opening and setting the panel, each of whom was capable of detecting an unauthorised act or incorrect procedure on behalf of the other.

[Pontius Navigator]

Regarding the gripper, it pre-dated NBC kit in the RAF, certainly the V-Force, by 5 years at least. One weakness was the dust cap tended to fly off in the wind under the Vulcan which dreadfully upset the plumbers.

Regarding the key/lock which is almost as ubiquitous as web enabled devices, the first time I saw one of these locks in the wild was 1966 in Motor Sport magazine as an aftermarket fit for your sports car. I fancy the lock had been designed to MoS requirements but no one had thought to patent it.

Regarding each weapon lock being unique, it also seemed to apply to training rounds until one day we found two identical sets.

As there were only 56 B rounds I guess uniqueness was not a problem.

[Treble one]

Thanks PN

The aforementioned Panorama clip I saw showed a single individual being able to set the parameters you mentioned with the key set in the photo.

They did mention the 2 man principle in the report. The big stink was over the lack of national command and control and lack of PAL'S as used by the US.

They actually referred to it as 'The Dr Strangelove Scenario'

Fortunately General Ripper was never a commander on a V Force or other nuclear enabled squadron.....

Many thanks
TO

[Treble one]

Presuming that the arming and parameter setting on the V Force was to be done at a dispersal Base should the need ever arise....?

[Peter G-W]

A pilot at Laarbruch in the mid-80s managed to "lose" one of his 2 key sets when had a wander around the QRA site (with a golf ball and club, I think) which made the handover to the next pilot rather problematic.

[Pontius Navigator]

Peter G-W, the pilot would only ever have one key. The second key was kept separately against that possibility.

Treble One, regarding the one individual being seen with the key, remember this is a TV Clip. The second man does not have to be joined at the hip. As long as two conditions are met: that the one with the key can be monitored by the other. That the one with the key can observe the actions of the other as well.

For instance, provided the man observing the key holder can be seen to be clear of the weapon, or any aircraft component, then the principle is being observed.

Two instances:

A co-pilot, exiting the aircraft last, caught his raincoat on the ladder and re-entered the cockpit. The captain, at the critical moment, had his back to the co-pilot thus breaching the 2-man principle and I failed the crew accordingly. That captain was the sqn cdr and is an active member in this forum though he cant remember the incident.

The other was when I was doing my own acceptance. Ordinarily the weapons team chief would do a final check being overseen by another armourer. Then I would do the acceptance being overseen by the nav plotter. In practice I would do the acceptance at the same time as the team chief did his final check. Halved the time and shaved 5 minutes off the load to combat ready time. This was critical as the YS2 could be loaded in 7 minutes whereas the 177, with a worked up team, took about 35 minutes.

See PMs as well.

[Peter G-W]

PN. Thanks for the attempted correction but if you have 2 targets then you need 2 bombs and 2 bombs required 2 sets of keys. We didn't mess around!

[Pontius Navigator]

Peter, thank you for the correction. Interesting as we had previously only tested SACLANT crews the two-weapon case. RAFG only had one weapon per Bucc in the 70s and they were the A version. I know the C was coming in in mid-70s so obviously the numbers increased.

[sandiego89]

Surely the Wasp must be the most "interesting" WE177 delivery platform...single pilot, doors off, weapon mounted askew, a splash of gas and away we go!!!

[RAFEngO74to09]

http://home.btconnect.com/lamontisltd/xt/images/xt788depthch1.jpg

[57mm]

Holy smoke. What was the escape manoeuvre after dropping that?

[Treble one]

I suspect 'kiss your a*** goodbye' 57 mm?


These weapons could be retarded of course?

[John Eacott]

Just the same as the Sea King and the Wessex dropping the 600lb Bomb: no retardation apart from the drogue chute, select yield before drop, Vne off the drop and wait for the splash.

Sink rate to explosion depth was briefed as long enough to get clear, but the admonition to open doors and windows to avoid overpressure was somewhat optimistic, IMO. It was, after all, an NDB so the explosion was at depth and wouldn't have propagated as fast as a surface or air burst.

[Bing]

but the admonition to open doors and windows to avoid overpressure was somewhat optimistic

The Wasp pilot appears to have taken it quite seriously though.

[NutLoose]

Sea King and the Wessex dropping the 600lb Bomb: no retardation apart from the drogue chute,And of course the Wessex..

[Treble one]

I saw a photo of a Wessex carrying one NutLoose-surprised, but hey ho, if a Wasp can do it.....

[ORAC]

https://twitter.com/ccibchris/status/1465740962764935168?s=21

[NutLoose]

ORAC
But where are the wires, the red, blue, green and yellow ones, James Bond and co always cut the wires to disarm them.

[pasta]

ORAC
But where are the wires, the red, blue, green and yellow ones, James Bond and co always cut the wires to disarm them.
That's the clever thing; ours had the coloured wires and the 7-segment LED countdown timer inside the casing, where the secret agents couldn't get to them...

[ORAC]

Wires?

I thought it was the UK EMP-proof clockwork version and the two small holes at the top were for the winding keys…..

[The Helpful Stacker]

How many chickens could you fit inside one of those?

[ORAC]

You wouldn’t want all your eggs in one basket….

[chopper2004]

IWM Duxford has a WE177 (B I think) which is displayed with TSR2 (Not the Swordfish, the other one.....)

Went to Marham Aviation Heritage Centre last year and saw one on display


https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/960x720/ace3806d_1783_4d4a_8c41_cdb529490af8_51883324cbab811ce176423 106e3c4e334154f97.jpeg
Cheers