flying schools - managing private aircraft

[spook1]

Do flying schools lease / manage private aircraft?

I'm thinking of buying a light aircraft (PA 28 - Warrior / Archer - full IF kit), but to get some money back on it I was wondering if any flying schools would be prepared to manage it for me, ie, they have use of it for teaching and get a percentage of hireing out costs etc. In return they would organise maintenance schedules, pay for hangerage etc.

Not sure of the finer details but just placing this thread to see if there are any possibilities of going down this line.

The aircraft would need to be London based.

cheers

spook

[BEagle]

I have 'managed' privately-owned aircraft in the past. The owners received 'free parking' but not hangarage - and they were responsible for all maintenance, including delivery flights to their maintenance base. We required to control all bookings, including use by the owner and the aircraft were 'dry-leased' at rates agreed by the owners subject to any operational restrictions they might impose - we then added fuel costs and a couple of quid for admin.

Bear in mind though that the aeroplane will have to be maintained to Public Transport (Passenger) standard - and that means £16K+ engine changes at a max of 2400 hours no matter how good they are!

[distaff_beancounter]

spook1

Cabair does exactly what you are asking about, so long as the aircraft is on Public CofA, & is of a type that either Cabair presently operates, or a type for which there would be sufficient demand from hirers.

A PA28 Warrior or Archer should fit the above.

The airfields around London, where Cabair operates are:- Elstree Denham Blackbushe Redhill Biggin Hill

The person to talk to, at Cabair's head office at Elstree, is Simon Cooper 020 8236 2400 (he can also advise you on buying a suitable A/c, if required)

[spook1]

distaff_beancounter

thanks for that info. I'll get in touch with Simon tomorrow.

[nonradio]

Re: Cabair; look veeerry carefully before you leap....

[AerBabe]

And be prepared for the fact that no-one else will treat your beloved a/c with quite the same respect you would... :(

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

I've been managing private aircraft at my school and hire business for a few years now, in fact that I wouldn't have been able to get started without other people's aeroplanes! It can work really well so long as everyone agrees on the terms, GET IT IN WRITING! The owner is normally responsible for maintenance, parking fees and insurance, and the operator pays the owner a dry hourly rate, and takes care of keeping it clean and tidy; fuel, landing fees etc. So if you fly your own aircraft you will be billed for those.

Pitfalls? As already said, not all operators will treat your aeroplane as well as you might like. HAve a look at the condition of their own aircraft. Remember that they will always make sure that all their own aircraft are busy before yours gets a turn. So if you can't afford to have it NOT flying, you can't afford to have it.
And if the operator tells you that something needs to be fixed, get it fixed. Otherwise your pride and joy will soon be known as a lemon .

The bet way to annoy an operator? Mates rates!
:mad: Don't even consider it.
You HAVE to give the operator exclusive control of the bookings. Why? Well we had one on line where so many people got it at mates rates, (Including another flying school!) which were less than the owner was charging US, so that we couldn't compete. And all these people wanted to drink our coffee, use the flight planning computer, use the loo, ask the staff for advice etc...in the end I told the owner to shove it.

Good luck!

[LowNSlow]

Include a clause for accidental damage up to the insurance excess value to be covered by the flying school and inspect the aeroplane regularly to ensure that the work is done. Cracked wingtips covered with speed tape, dented leading edges with paint peeling off them etc are major put offs for customers :(

If the work is delayed until a major inspection make sure that the school pays for their share or it will all get slipped onto your bill.

As previously mentioned by CFI, the only way it can work in a reasonably amicable manner is if it is all laid out in a completely unambiguous contract.

Regarding BEagles point about the owner being responsible for getting the aircraft to the maintenance facility, I feel that that is unreasonable. The maintenance facility to be used should be mutually agreed between yourself and the FTO and they (who should be keeping the logs up to date) will know when it is a) requiring maintenance and b) when it is most convenient to do it. It can be a handy lesson for a student to come and pick up somebody from another airfield thus cutting down on ferrying expenses. Also, assuming you don't have unlimited free time when are you going to do it??? Your wunderplane could be sitting on the tarmac for a week, costing you money when it could have been in for it's 50 hour check and back working again by the time you can move it.

Totally agree on Beagle's point about "mate's rates" though. Don't even think about it. It will do nothing but sour your relationship with the FTO and possibly with your mates if they damage your pride & joy and are a bit reticent about coughing up for the damage.

If you do go for a larger school, you should have a standard contract which they already have in place with others. If they won't put you in touch with some of these "others" tell them to poke it.

After all the doom & gloom, good luck. I rented my Cessna to a number of clubs with varying degrees of success hence the advice above :D :D

[BEagle]

There would have been no problem with the 'maintenance base' issue if we could have used the ferry flights for 'revenue' sorties. But when the base in question is miles away because the owner has a 'mate' who is cheaper or 'more convenient, if you get my drift Squire' than our own, I don't think that would be reasonable. Particularly if the owner then expected us to take someone over to pick it up for him as well - and if the maintenance base isn't licensed, we can't use the flight for training.

However, use the same base as us and we can manage the trips to maintenance reasonably - then we wouldn't charge.

Insurance - no, the owner should insure his aircraft against whatever risk he elects to. But if his ac is left in a dirty condition then we would require the culprit to pay for full valeting!

Any references to the male gender in this post should be taken as applying equally to the female gender and to those in doubt of their specific gender

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

Some good points about maintenance.
When I started out I had aeroplanes on line maintained at various places, some were not up to standard in workmanship or service, some downright unsafe to say the least.
So now any privately owned aircraft on my line have to be maintained at a facility approved by me, and fair enough I reckon if I am to take responsibility for them.

[slim_slag]

spook1

Do flying schools lease / manage private aircraft?

Oh sure they do. They love that sort of relationship, it means they can transfer what would be their risk of owning a rental school plane to somebody else.

Most owners I know who have done this regretted it. That doesn't mean to say it will not sometimes work to the owner's benefit, but it's not the rule. Make sure you deal with somebody you can trust. Usual arrangements I have seen is that you pay for everything, and the flying school gives you all the money they receive for that plane minus a handling fee. None of this percentage stuff, most flying schools don't go for that, again it shifts too much of the risk back to them.

The flying school manages the aircraft totally, maintains it as they see fit, maintains it where they want, pumps fuel from where they want. You get the bill for all this, and it could mean you are also giving the flying school a lot of business for which they make a profit. You cannot shop around and get the best rates for a service you are writing the cheque for.

Owning a plane is expensive. If you are looking at this in a financially sensible way, rent. If you happen to fly sufficient hours in a year to make it worth buying, buy it and keep it for yourself.

The only way people usually make money from this relationship, IMO, is when the plane appreciates in value at a rate greater than you might expect from putting your money in another investment vehicle.

As CFI said above, he couldn't have got started without leasing planes. Ask yourself why that is. If it was cost effective to lease planes to flying schools, he would have bought a plane and leased it to himself. That is not to say CFI did anything bad, he worked out how to make a business profitable, which is something he should be congratulated on.

[spook1]

Thanks for all your advice on this matter.

I'm also checking out the pro's and con's of joining a syndicate - perhaps a more cost effective way of parting with my money??

Spook

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

slim-slag, you're right in a way, but as I started from scratch I wouldn't have been able to get the finance to buy an aeroplane of my own. Of the ones I started with, one belonged to a friend, one to one of my instructors, one to a club which I operated on their behalf, and one to a friend looking to dump some money to offset a capital gain for tax reasons!

It worked really well, very low overheads and all operating costs variable rather than fixed; and within two years I'd saved up enough to persuade the finance company to share five aeroplanes with me. But when the bills come in I wish I'd carried on using other people's aeroplanes!

And BTW I'm a "she" :)

[slim_slag]

CFI

It worked really well,

Great, it's possible to make it work for all involved. It's important the owner knows what the score is, because if things go wrong it is generally he/she who has the bad taste in his/her mouth. But you said that.

And BTW I'm a "she"

Ooops, sorry! Beagles's standard disclaimer then applies. :)

[LowNSlow]

BEagle as I said, the maintenance organisation needs to be agreed by both parties. Having the owner's pal do the maintenance is not acceptable unless he happens to be a reputable M3 pal :D Equally having the maintenance done by the FTO who happens to own the gold plated no expense spared M3 facility may be convenient for the FTO but is probably going to be less acceptable to the owner unless the improvement in turnaround time / serviceability is made up by extra revenue earning hours being flown.

Overall, it's not an experience that I would repeat unless I had the spare cash to buy a mini fleet of C152's and maintain them at my home base. This system seems to work quite well in the UK where distances are relatively short. There is an outfit not a million miles from the M25 that works in this manner. When the aircraft is due a 50 hour check ot whatever it is ferried to the M25 area and they either do it while you wait or for an Annual, give you a replacement aircraft. Also if "your" aircraft goes U/S then they ferry up a replacement for you until their engineer gets the U/S one back in the air. Their service is probably a bit more expensive than a more informal arrangement but the FTO always has a serviceable aircraft on the line (within reason of course).

As usual to make a small fortune in aviation, start with a large one. :D :D