General advice on training and job prospects

[gtc]

Hi.
I took a helicopter taster session last year and loved it. Recently started researching how to become a helicopter pilot. Lookng on the web looks like it wil take about £70k and 12 months to achieve CPL from zero. My local flight school do PPL and CPL, also noticed Bristow do anintegrated CPL. Is this cost about right?
The other apect i've been looking at is employment after training. This is proving more diffiuclt. Odd bits and pieces when I do searches but doesn't appear to be much or likely I'm looking in the wrong places.
I'd appreciate any genetal advice on how others trained and how they got their first job. I have no connections in the industry so feeling a bit lost.
Thanks

[gtc]

Thanks for pointing me in the right direction. Some of the conversations are a little old and was hunting more upto date information. I've added to some of those existing threads, hope this is ok.

[Bravo73]

You've come to the right place. Welcome.

There is a sticky thread at the top of the forum: http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/122944-faq-training-employment-prospects-please-read-before-posting.html

Some of the threads might feel a bit out of date now but make a brew and start ploughing throw the various links. If you've still got any questions after reading that lot, fire away. Unfortunately, things are currently quite tough in the industry worldwide and there are currently lots of helicopter pilots out of work. But don't necessarily let that put you off.

[DOUBLE BOGEY]

Hi GTC, if you flew in a helicopter that makes you a ROTORHEAD. Bravo 73 has put it in clear terms. It is just not a good time at the moment for many commercial pilots. However, things change quickly as they have done in the past. By the time you have made it through your training it could be a whole new world.

Good Luck and welcome to ROTORHEADS. We can get a bit feisty at times. Don't let that put you off.

[KNIEVEL77]

Hi GTC,
I hope this doesn't infringe any forum rules by posting this but I believe Northumbria Helicopters based at Newcastle International Airport are holding an Open Day, this Sunday the 29th of January where pilots, instructors and current students will be on hand to answer any questions from prospective PPL students. So feel free to pop along, I hear they are even supplying bacon sandwiches!!!!! I did try to PM you but that facility was unavailable.
Good luck with whichever path you choose.
K77.

[AV83R]

Welcome GTC!

Sadly, the market in the UK at the moment is pretty pants. Redundancies left right and centre are flooding the ''pilot pond'' with fish that are a far more attractive catch than a newly qualified low hour pilot.

That said, there are still lots of students, and friends of mine, that go over to the states and train, get their FAA CPL CFI/CFII, become instructors and rack up a lot of hours. They either do it through instruction, or working for tour companies, one guy that I trained with is flying the Canyon in an EC130, getting all important turbine time.

There is definitely a way to still get that job as a pilot, but I don't think that the UK is where you should look.

[gtc]

Thanks for the feedback everyone.

Cheers for the heads up K77. They had emailed me. Ill be there first thing :)

[gtc]

Thanks for the replies. Cheers K77, they had emailed me with details. I'll be there first thing ;)

[Devil 49]

"The other apect i've been looking at is employment after training. This is proving more diffiuclt."

I can teach a monkey to fly. I can't make a monkey an aviator. (US Army instructor pilot, "encouraging me in 1968)

Employment after training is the most difficult part of the process. There are many routes from zero to employment, but not much certainty, it depends on your ability to take advantage of opportunities.
If you don't have a sponsor and a job waiting for your qualification, the next best choice is instructional employment at the school that trained you. After that, teaching flying at another and/or various flight schools. You can begin the long process of learning to really fly while teaching, make contacts and establish a reputation.

Or, work and fly as financially feasible. I know people who bought almost every hour to the level of general employability, scavenged hours, or bartered time for other skills. I know people who established their own flying businesses to build time.

This is a poor time to be in the helicopter business. The biz may continue to decline, especially in view of novel alternatives (drones, for instance); or if you're a determined contrarian, this is the time to become employable in a couple, maybe ten years when business expands and/or attrition opens a seat. The new pilot who will take that seat is starting now.

Most who start will quit for one reason or another. The only thing certain is that you won't fly for a living if you never start the process.

[Sir Korsky]

Go fixed wing and cross over from that side.

[gulliBell]

I agree with Sir K.

[Same again]

A quick look at any aviation job site will show the sad state of the industry. Literally hundreds of jobs for fixed-wing and airlines. Next to none for rotary. The decimation has been the worst that I had seen in 30+ years of flying and will take years to recover - if at all - now that UAV's are taking over many traditional 'starter jobs' If you want to fly then look at the more dependable and easier FW route.

[ATPMBA]

Many years ago I made a post about the link of offshore helicopter contracts/rates and the price of crude. I was told there was no link I was an idiot.

How the world has changed!

[CharlieDontSurff]

I'm in the same boat as you. Jobs are not as freely available as our fixed-wing cousins. However, there will still be helicopters in 10-20 years so someones got to fly them

[KNIEVEL77]

Hi Gary,
It was good to meet you the other day.
Was the open day helpful and have to come to any decision?
Feel free to PM me!
J.

[mezzanaccio]

Go fixed wing and cross over from that side.
This is an interesting idea. Why do you think this would be better than starting from scratch with helis?
Would a low-hour heli pilot with fixed-wing experience be that much more attractive to a an employer?

[gulliBell]

I think what Sir K was suggesting, and what I was agreeing with, is aeroplane jobs are far more plentiful than helicopter pilot jobs, and if you had a choice, embark on an aeroplane flying career rather than a helicopter flying career.

[muermel]

Hey pprune, I'm looking for any pointers towards a reasonably priced MCC-IR course in EASA-land. I'm based in Germany but of course willing to travel. Heard good things about Aviation Academy in Romania but can't get hold of them via mail or phone. Will finish my IR in April/ early May so any time later than that would be great. A Sim-buddy to split the bill would be great too of course.

Bye
'

[helicrazi]

Hey pprune, I'm looking for any pointers towards a reasonably priced MMC-IR course in EASA-land. I'm based in Germany but of course willing to travel. Heard good things about Aviation Academy in Romania but can't get hold of them via mail or phone. Will finish my IR in April/ early May so any time later than that would be great. A Sim-buddy to split the bill would be great too of course.

Bye
'

StarSpeed UK?

[gipsymagpie]

Hey pprune, I'm looking for any pointers towards a reasonably priced MMC-IR course in EASA-land. I'm based in Germany but of course willing to travel. Heard good things about Aviation Academy in Romania but can't get hold of them via mail or phone. Will finish my IR in April/ early May so any time later than that would be great. A Sim-buddy to split the bill would be great too of course.

Bye
'
Assume you mean MCC course? Babcock at Gloucester can do that in their EC135 sim and Starspeed have the course on their books too as already mentioned. Both EASA approved.

[SASless]

A quick look at any aviation job site will show the sad state of the industry. Literally hundreds of jobs for fixed-wing and airlines. Next to none for rotary.


As a certain Redneck Comedian tells us......"Here''s your Sign!".

All of those youngsters I knew that left Helicopters for fixed wing are all happy, better paid, better job security, and better perks.

Most were approaching their peak level progression shy of entering management and had suffered the usual helicopter world lifestyle long enough to see a better way of life than what loomed.

Make your own choice but do so after some very careful consideration of ALL of the various factors and influences that apply to each route....helicopters or fixed wing.

​​​​​​​

[muermel]

Of course I mean MCC-IR, my bad. Cheers for the heads up, will get in touch with Babcock & Starspeed, thanks.

[rudestuff]

Of course I mean MCC-IR, my bad. Cheers for the heads up, will get in touch with Babcock & Starspeed, thanks.
Nope, you're still saying MCC-IR for some reason...

[ApolloHeli]

Nope, you're still saying MCC-IR for some reason...

I don't know what doesn't seem right to you about that, but what muermel is specifying is perfectly right - an MCC course is either VFR only or includes MCC training under IFR conditions.

FCL.735.H
Multi-crew cooperation training course – helicopters Regulation (EU) No 1178/2011(a) The MCC training course shall comprise at least:(1) for MCC/IR:(i) 25 hours of theoretical knowledge instruction and exercises; and
(ii) 20 hours of practical MCC training or 15 hours, in the case of student pilots attending an ATP(H)/IR integrated course. When the MCC training is combined with the initial type rating training for a multi-pilot helicopter, the practical MCC training may be reduced to not less than 10 hours if the same FSTD is used for both MCC and type rating;
(2) for MCC/VFR:(i) 25 hours of theoretical knowledge instruction and exercises; and
(ii) 15 hours of practical MCC training or 10 hours, in the case of student pilots attending an ATP(H)/IR integrated course. When the MCC training is combined with the initial type rating training for a multi-pilot helicopter, the practical MCC training may be reduced to not less than 7 hours if the same FSTD is used for both MCC and type rating.

(b) The MCC training course shall be completed within 6 months at an ATO. An FNPT II or III qualified for MCC, an FTD 2/3 or an FFS shall be used.

(c) Unless the MCC course has been combined with a multi-pilot type rating course, on completion of the MCC training course the applicant shall be given a certificate of completion.

(d) An applicant having completed MCC training for any other category of aircraft shall be exempted from the requirement in (a)(1)(i) or (a)(2)(i), as applicable.

(e) An applicant for MCC/IR training who has completed MCC/VFR training shall be exempted from the requirement in (a)(1)(i), and shall complete 5 hours of practical MCC/IR training.

[rudestuff]

Nothing at all... I was just commenting on the bizarre conversation:

Blah blah... MCC/IR
Do you mean MCC?
Of course I meant MCC/IR, my bad...

MCC/IR is an unusual term. As likely more people have walked on the moon than done a MCC/VFR - the course is generally referred to simply as MCC.

[jflee97]

I've had a browse through the pinned thread but I'm pretty sure this might be a bit of a novel question.
I'm leaving the RAF(multi-engine) after 6 years and an unfortunate lack of wings, and on closer inspection I've found that I am far more motivated by civil rotary work than fixed wing! I have a couple applications in for sponsored training (one FW and one RW with Bristow) but in the event that I am unsuccessful, I'm looking to try and figure out if it might not be more cost effective or valuable to do my RW training in Canada and convert a TCCA CPL (H) into a CAA ATPL(H) at all?
The regulatory changes seem to have complicated matters enormously, as the TCCA to EASA route is far better documented and supported. I would even be open to TCCA to EASA to CAA if it would represent a huge value-add in terms of employability!
My end goal would very much be SAR/HEMS/Police if at all possible, UK preferred but frankly no ties to staying if the pay and opportunities are better in Canada/NZ/AUS/US too!
Or, is the RW world sufficiently hard up that if I can't get a sponsored place and guarantee of a job, that paying for my FW licences and crossing over if the opportunity arises is the better plan?

[gipsymagpie]

Nothing at all... I was just commenting on the bizarre conversation:

Blah blah... MCC/IR
Do you mean MCC?
Of course I meant MCC/IR, my bad...

MCC/IR is an unusual term. As likely more people have walked on the moon than done a MCC/VFR - the course is generally referred to simply as MCC.
Cannot resist rolling this on...he actually said MMC the first time, hence my question. In the fixed wing world they is only "MCC" but in the world of helicopters there is such a thing as an ATPL/VFR so the distinction VFR vs IFR makes sense for the MCC.

[gipsymagpie]

I've had a browse through the pinned thread but I'm pretty sure this might be a bit of a novel question.
I'm leaving the RAF(multi-engine) after 6 years and an unfortunate lack of wings, and on closer inspection I've found that I am far more motivated by civil rotary work than fixed wing! I have a couple applications in for sponsored training (one FW and one RW with Bristow) but in the event that I am unsuccessful, I'm looking to try and figure out if it might not be more cost effective or valuable to do my RW training in Canada and convert a TCCA CPL (H) into a CAA ATPL(H) at all?
The regulatory changes seem to have complicated matters enormously, as the TCCA to EASA route is far better documented and supported. I would even be open to TCCA to EASA to CAA if it would represent a huge value-add in terms of employability!
My end goal would very much be SAR/HEMS/Police if at all possible, UK preferred but frankly no ties to staying if the pay and opportunities are better in Canada/NZ/AUS/US too!
Or, is the RW world sufficiently hard up that if I can't get a sponsored place and guarantee of a job, that paying for my FW licences and crossing over if the opportunity arises is the better plan?
So the military credits (CAP2254) are what will save you money. Unfortunately as you probably already know, your credits are severely limited by your lack of wings - you are not a QMP(A) and so do not get any ATPL or CPL(A) credits. But you do get credit for a PPL(A). My advice would be to start there in the UK and get that as a firm line in the sand. Then you can start on whatever journey you choose. Your experience on multi-engine fixed wing will doubtless be helpful in getting you along the fixed wing commercial licence route. You need to get the Class 1 and do the suite of ATPL exams. There is more opportunity for work in the fixed wing world and efficiency wise it is the most sensible option. You could be employable by the time you've done you leaving routine.

Now if you want to go rotary, you have a much bigger outlay ahead of you. If you have the cash, you could go the integrated route with Helicentre but that's a big wedge of debt in one go (and there are mixed reviews of their training). Alternatively you could go modular but remember you are going to have to work through the whole PPL, hours building, CPL, IR route which is vastly more expensive than the equivalent fixed wing route (particularly given you can short cut the PPL and hours building). Then you are still a low hours rotary pilot - rigs would then be the obviously route to get the hours to get an ATPL.

Third option is a hybrid. Do your fixed wing stuff, fly for an airline for a few years. You can then bridge sideways to helicopters later. Only 5 exams, shorter CPL and IR modular courses and lots of relevant multi-crew experience in your CV. You would also have a steady income to pay for the flying training.

I think the other states of licencing are red-herrings until you have a magic ATPL of some type. The credit to hop between ICAO CPL's is poor compared to having an ATPL to convert. Each time you jump its all the exams again. And if you don't have an ATPL(A), its an IR test for each jump. No thanks.

So my plan would be to get my UK Class 1 medical (because refusal disappoints) get started with your UK ATPL exams (aeroplane), speak to UKFlying.com about credits and get your hands on a CPL(A)/IR with ATPL credit. Join an airline, get some hours, then decide where next.

HEMS/Police is awesome but unless you want to sit as a co-pilot for a looooong time you needs hours somewhere else (airlines/offshore/instructing).

[jimmymc]

I've had a browse through the pinned thread but I'm pretty sure this might be a bit of a novel question.
I'm leaving the RAF(multi-engine) after 6 years and an unfortunate lack of wings, and on closer inspection I've found that I am far more motivated by civil rotary work than fixed wing! I have a couple applications in for sponsored training (one FW and one RW with Bristow) but in the event that I am unsuccessful, I'm looking to try and figure out if it might not be more cost effective or valuable to do my RW training in Canada and convert a TCCA CPL (H) into a CAA ATPL(H) at all?
The regulatory changes seem to have complicated matters enormously, as the TCCA to EASA route is far better documented and supported. I would even be open to TCCA to EASA to CAA if it would represent a huge value-add in terms of employability!
My end goal would very much be SAR/HEMS/Police if at all possible, UK preferred but frankly no ties to staying if the pay and opportunities are better in Canada/NZ/AUS/US too!
Or, is the RW world sufficiently hard up that if I can't get a sponsored place and guarantee of a job, that paying for my FW licences and crossing over if the opportunity arises is the better plan?


Your best bet for rotary is the US and the FAA licence. Some schools offered a J1 visa which allowed you to instruct after your initial training for up to two years, this is a great way to build experience and hours in your logbook. You'd need to research to see if this is still the case, I'm sure it is though. After a couple of years instructing and 1000 hours in your logbook convert your qualifications to the CAA if you still want to work in the UK.

[muermel]

Hi all

I haven't done my MCC yet (yes the MCC IR) as I finished the IR-H later than planned. Is anybody looking for a SIM buddy for the MCC in the next 2-3 months and has a course already booked/ reserved? If not, HeliCentre NL could offer a course in November 6th - 15th if somebody is interested.

Bye