Has EK been the worst decision ever? [Archive]

Henrydog

22nd Jan 2017, 12:10

I'm one of those who came here from a now defunct airline.
Jumped early to come here (luckily).
Been here 10 years.
EK was a breath of fresh air when I got here.
Flew all over the world with interesting people in a big shiny jet. (Two engine thingy).
Moved to the left seat in time (lucky again).
Enjoyed the journey.
Made me a better pilot (unbelievably, as I thought I was already sh!t hot!)
My family flourished..we were two, now we're four.
My kids spent their first decade of life running around barefoot, in shorts and tee shirts in the sunshine...that's pretty good coming from a wet and windy island we call home.
Had a lot of fun in Dubai, in the desert and exploring the world down route.
My wife had a great life here.
We made some lifelong friendships.
Life was good.

Then...
Three years ago, (for me), I could see things going downhill here and the industry as a whole.
But of course you focus on what's happening right infront of you.
First one wheel, then the next. How many wheels have they got to lose?
As the journey went on, there were things I discovered here, that quite honestly began to unsettle me.
Due to the type of flying, I hadn't slept properly for three years...fits of four hours only, either at home, in an aeroplane bunk or a hotel.
I'd been walking around in a "fug" or permanent state of fatigue for some years.
I had no idea this was happening.
Every time I opened my eyes...I was in an aeroplane again.
My older brother recently told me I didn't look well and I'd aged rapidly.
I lost my temper with my kids and shouted at them on several occasions due to a shortened fuse.
That part of it really hit home hard.
I'd been pretending that it doesn't get any better than this, job wise, so had better just keep going...
I didn't have a choice anyway...did I?
Keep taking the money...
Keep flying the roster...
Keep putting one foot in front of the other...
Sound familiar?
Then my wife turned to me one day recently and said simply "What are we waiting for? Can we just go? This isn't doing you any good."
Then I realised...

Of course I had a choice...(slow learner)
I quit.
I didn't have a job to go to but I'd work it out.
Did I want another flying job? Not sure.
Flying used to be a passion of mine.
They beat that out of me.
That's sad.
Then I found another passion.
My wife turned to me again recently one morning and said, "Since you resigned, you've been sleeping eight hours solid when you're at home."
Some of the wrinkles have left my face.
I felt a huge weight lift from me.
I felt more relaxed.
I'm going to take my little family home to our wet and windy island, with it's green fields, rivers and forests and spend six months as a Daddy and husband and just be.
I'm lucky that I can go back to my country, I know some can't. Very lucky not every one has the choice... I KNOW.
I can't afford it.
But I'm going to.
I thought I was doing the right thing, sticking it out for the foreseeable future, always telling myself,
"I'll leave when I've found something better."
There won't be anything "better" flying wise.
So you could be here a very long time...waiting.

I'm excited about the future again for the first time in years because I made a choice.

True success is running your own race, staying on your own path, living by your values, moving towards your own dreams.

Don't let anyone steal your life.

TCU LUX

22nd Jan 2017, 12:41

The best post I've read on these forums for years. Fantastic advise HenryDog.

Enjoy the fresh air, greenery & quality sleep. I'm sure your physical and mental health will be so much better off.

Best of luck.

A6EchoEchoUniform

22nd Jan 2017, 14:59

Absolutely fantastic replies. I am going to pass this thread along for viewing. It turned out even better than expected.

For me, I don't know why he would come here. The USA airlines are hiring right now and it's a much better job. Starting in a B737, A320, or even an EMB190 is great. The A380 (and I'm sure B777) is not what it's made out to be.

I haven't a clue what one could find attractive about the hours we work, the politics that we put up with, and the lack of respect and appreciation that we receive. As for me, I must hit the rack. I've recently landed 7000 miles from home and need to fly 7000 miles the other way home in only a few short hours. Oh and in 96 hours, be back at DXB to fly 5300 miles again ... inshallah!

EK-or-bust

22nd Jan 2017, 18:08

Best post I have seen in a while, Henry. Thanks for sharing.

I have been here a good 15 years, kids still running around barefoot ('cause I keep making them) and wife enjoys her life & work here so much she does not want to leave Dubai once I stop flying. And stop flying I will, at one point, especially with the insane rosters EK is giving us bi-motor chaps these days. Sooner rather than later. But, strangely enough, I still enjoy going to work, I fly with great FO's 95% of the time, enjoy the network and layovers.

Would I come to EK today?
Hell no.
Did I do the right thing back then, leaving my northern European flag carrier?
Hell yes.
Any regrets? None at all. Seriously. None. Best decision ever.

Looking at my fellow aviators back home today, hating going to work on a daily basis, all I envy them is the large pension they will earn once they stop flying.

Becoming a pilot these days is not something I will encourage friends or family. The glory days are well and truly gone.

Exit Strategy

22nd Jan 2017, 21:50

I did my time. The first few years were fun and had lots of days off to travel. The pay was poor but I guess the money/lifestyle balance was OK. That all changed over time.

Like many others, I liked the idea of a quick command but the reality is that command time is only good if you want to chase contract jobs (I don't). If you join any half reasonable outfit you will be starting at the bottom again so the command time is almost irrelevant (good background but irrelevant to progression in a new company).

Having made a conscious decision to not piss money away in DXB, I left with enough to buy a house back home but that was about it.

I am glad I did not have to endure a bankruptcy at my pre-EK airline but with the benefit of hindsight better decisions could have been made.

As an aside, it always horrified me to see guys destroy their marriages just because they couldn't give up the left seat or being too arrogant to place family before job.

The airline industry is like the Titanic after it broke in half, ethics, manners and courtesy are long gone and it is all about positioning yourself on what you think will be the last bit of wreckage to go under while you wait for "rescue" whatever that may be (career change etc).

Laker

22nd Jan 2017, 23:49

My two cents for what it's worth. If your buddy wants to get to a US major his best bet is to identify the quickest path and choose that one. Seniority is everything so any delay can hurt future earnings and quality of life. I know several senior FOs who make $270-330,000USD at US major airlines. As a captain you can obviously make much more.

That being said if his dream is to fly for EK then go for it. There is certainly more to life than just future earnings. The destinations, expat experience, cabin crew, equipment, and all around adventure at EK is hard to match anywhere. I don't see anything wrong with planning on spending 5 years at EK and then heading home to UAL, DAL, AAL, etc. It might slow him down a bit but he will make some good memories in the process. If he hates it a couple years of 777 or 380 time certainly won't hurt his CV.

Rotaiva

23rd Jan 2017, 01:18

Henrydog, excellent post! :D:D:D:D

I share a similar sentiment. Left after 8 years. Now I sleep well, feel well, live well, wifey & kids are positive and happy having done all of the DXB experiences.

Whereas I used to collapse into bed at a ridiculously early hour (DXB), now I relax, have a beer with my wife & say goodnight to my kids!

Now I'm out, my QOL is way, way, way up!

A6EchoEchoUniform

23rd Jan 2017, 01:35

White Knight

23rd Jan 2017, 03:36

Degrees are not required or considered at EK...
And the fact that the degree that the US majors want you to have could in fact be a degree in 'Ancient Peruvian Basket-Weaving' never ceases to amaze me😳

flite idol

23rd Jan 2017, 03:36

A6EchoEchoUniform

23rd Jan 2017, 03:56

Well if you have been mentoring him since 16 and he is 24 with no college and planning to be an airline pilot then you have been doing a piss poor mentoring job. Hahahah......just kidding lol. At 24 he needs to get some college done, lots of options in the US for online courses....git er done. Buzzing of to the desert is career cop out. Good luck though.

Edit to say....Henrydog....brilliant post.

I agree that he needs to get college done. I started mentoring him because his father (a police pilot) died in a helicopter crash. His college fund was dissolved by living expenses that were incurred before his fathers department started paying the family the fathers benefits. Alex then wanted to learn to fly, and so he's spent every penny he's earned to do so. For him, it was a choice of either flying or college, but not both. I can't say that I blame him for making the choice that he did. A pilot certificate will probably always find you a job. A college degree, maybe not.

ruserious

23rd Jan 2017, 04:00

Henrydog excellent post, pretty well describes it.
After more than two decades here, I still like my job, but the workload is simply ridiculous, constant tiredness with little time to recover and I am blessed to be on the Wonder Bus.
The one constant here is that everything gets worse, every year, in all aspects of job and lifestyle. So set your benchmark now and expect it to get worse, then you won't be disappointed.

flite idol

23rd Jan 2017, 04:03

Understood......the college requirement in the US is total BS but as it stands it's a dealbreaker for the majors. Hopefully that will change in time but hey....it's not everyone's ambition to fly for Delta or whoever. Good luck to Alex what ever choice he makes. Cheers

TOGA!

23rd Jan 2017, 06:02

Sorry.

a College Degree is not BS. It shows you can set some goals and reach them on your own in a reasonable amount of time. This is a trait most employers find desirable. If you are from the US and do not wish to go to college, you are at a true disadvantage.

Alex would be better off learning how to weld, become an electrician, a plumber or learn how to frame a house then put together about 10 legal Mexicans framers who WILL work their tails off for you, if you treat them fairly.

Fly for fun.

gardenshed

23rd Jan 2017, 07:14

Sorry TOGA,
It is BS,if the degree is in "Under Water Basket Weaving " that's just a degree for the sake of it.
Doesn't mean any great study took place. The UK is full of Kids with completely useless degrees, vast debt and no job, because of said degree.
If they said a degree in Maths, Science or something worth while then your talking. But a degree for a degrees sake no.

flite idol

23rd Jan 2017, 10:35

put together 10 legal Mexicans framers who WILL work their tails off for you, if you treat them fairly

You have got to be kidding me.......if you have a degree it's got to be from The Trump University.

Aluminium shuffler

23rd Jan 2017, 14:27

The US aren't the only nation to insist on degrees for pilots - Turkish, Air France and many others do too. It is an utter waste of time and money for most, and few graduates have relevant degrees in any career, never mind ours. It is only useful if you intend to move on from the line into some sort of niche, like technical, management, human factors and so on, and then only if you study a relevant degree. The only benefit for most graduate pilots is that it may have given them some useful life experience and maturity as opposed to starting a pilot career at 18, but some of those entering airlines at 20 can have an older head on their shoulders than many graduates - it is a highly individual thing and each should be taken on merit.

ruserious

23rd Jan 2017, 16:16

For some countries a degree is equivalent to finishing High School or 6th form in countries that have better education systems.

quietfrog

23rd Jan 2017, 17:15

In the States the degree requirement isn't seen as bs, its just the way it is to get any decent, and possibly well paying job. The degree isn't especially hard to get, but its the closest thing we have to a gate to being 'upper class'. So for those outside of the US the degree requirement might seem like bs, but it isn't in the States and it won't be going away anytime soon for the desirable places to work.
-qf

fliion

23rd Jan 2017, 18:11

Anyone who thinks a college degree is less advantageous - need to get acquainted with grade school statistics.

The numbers don't lie.

https://www.bls.gov/emp/ep_chart_001.htm/

And it's funny when I chat to the 'no college' chest beaters - how fervent they are about their own going to college.

go46ball

23rd Jan 2017, 18:20

College degrees in the USA are like fliion (a$$holes). Everyone has one.

flite idol

23rd Jan 2017, 18:58

Anyone who thinks a college degree is less advantageous - need to get acquainted with grade school statistics.

No one said a college degree is less advantageous, what ever that means. We all agree it is a requirement, the merits of which have been flogged to death. I fly with many first officers still up to their necks in debt paying off their history of art bachelors degree but that's the cost of a ticket to ride apparently.

fliion

23rd Jan 2017, 19:06

College degrees in the USA are like fliion (a$$holes). Everyone has one.

Yup that's true - but on avg the a$$holes with a degree make twice as much as those that don't.

Them for apples

fliion

23rd Jan 2017, 20:40

Back on topic - worst decision - no, on balance more positives than negatives when taken over the full period. Quick command a key plus.

Recent years have been tough.

But from a health perspective, staying may be a serious mistake.

Iver

23rd Jan 2017, 21:01

I pointed out this thread to the individual who I'm speaking to. His reply is "well, I really have no choice. The US carriers won't take me without a degree."

Not sure that I agree, I think the US carriers will soon be desperate enough to hire the experience that they want vs education.

Honestly I have no idea whether Emirates hires most people with their degrees or not. Any insight? I'm thinking that most of us have a college education?

I have been told United does not require a college degree - although it doesn't hurt to have one and a masters degree while you are at it...

havick

23rd Jan 2017, 21:24

I agree that he needs to get college done. I started mentoring him because his father (a police pilot) died in a helicopter crash. His college fund was dissolved by living expenses that were incurred before his fathers department started paying the family the fathers benefits. Alex then wanted to learn to fly, and so he's spent every penny he's earned to do so. For him, it was a choice of either flying or college, but not both. I can't say that I blame him for making the choice that he did. A pilot certificate will probably always find you a job. A college degree, maybe not.

While he works on his degree he could join a wholly owned regional (e.g. Envoy, Piedmont or PSA) that all offer flow through to AA mainline without a degree.

That being said if I were him I would join a wholly owned with the flow, and still knock out his degree to keep the options open so you're not forced to have the flow as the only option.

The Dominican

24th Jan 2017, 01:37

The US aren't the only nation to insist on degrees for pilots - Turkish, Air France and many others do too

Google is your friend......! At none of these outfits a degree is listed as a requirement...!

Air France airline pilot : Air France - Corporate (http://corporate.airfrance.com/en/employment/our-professions/11972/pilote-de-ligne-a-air-france/)

http://www.turkishairlines.com/en-int/pilot-recruitment/frequently-asked-questions-fqa

I went all the way on my education and have taken advantage of it on my business....., not so much on my aviation career, I haven't come across any situation during my time at the airlines in the US or elsewhere when a higher academic degree has been needed...., this here is a technical career, we are operators, we don't build the contraptions:=

Now back to the topic...., What on earth does that has to do with this thread?????

abZorbatheleak

24th Jan 2017, 03:25

Wow Henry, Profound.

I feel EXACTLY the same way. Been here 15 years and left a national carrier to join EK. As you said, the first 10 years were great and then..........

I'm an optimist but honestly can't see things getting better. Not only for EK but in the industry as a whole. Looking at leaving this year and possibly doing something completely non aviation related. Just like you I was passionate about flying and growing up was all I ever wanted to do. I now find myself in my mid 40's and want to have nothing to do with aviation at all. I too need to go find my smile and I think we are all pretty much in the same boat. The only thing that separates us is varying states of denial.

Good luck to all. I think this year is going to be make or break for a lot of us.

A6EchoEchoUniform

24th Jan 2017, 04:13

As far as being done with aviation, I think for the majority of us, that happens after 15-20 years in the field. EK, American, British airways, whatever.. makes no difference. The burn out happens.

Emma Royds

24th Jan 2017, 05:56

I do not regret coming to EK. My viewpoint may not rest comfortably with some colleagues but as an expat, I view myself as a flying mercenary. I decided to move here primarily for financial gain and to get a more modern type in my logbook at the expense of living in a modern and democratic country at home. Both of my objectives have been met and should I end up in the office tomorrow for any reason and be shown the door, it would be an inconvenience but nothing more. I never viewed EK as a career since I am only as good as my last landing and the company can choose to dismiss me for any reason they choose, with little recourse from me to reverse the outcome. I am however far better off than I would be in any legacy carrier at home but the balance between risk and reward could be tipped at any time. This is a risk and one I am happy to take.

I take pride in what I do and how I am presented but I do this out of my own self professionalism and the logo on the hat and the colours on the tail are unimportant to me, providing I stand to gain what I had set out to achieve by accepting employment with the airline/contract agency.

A6EchoEchoUniform - I was that same young aviator that you have described when I was in my early twenties and I had my sights on moving abroad and I had the chance to taste ex-pat life prior to joining EK and have no regrets in becoming a 'flying mercenary' early on in my flying days. I am not for one minute defending EK and never would as I have no emotional connection to them or to any previous employer I have worked for whilst I have been a expat. I would say that no matter what you say will not change him, so allow him to join if he wants but make sure that he has a goal or goals in place with a exit strategy in place prior to joining, which is vital for any expat. It could be saving to buy a property at home or getting time on type. I recall working in another Arab country and leaving on a day off and resigning after I had left the country, since it was in my own interests and safety to leave suddenly and whilst my exit was not very dignified, it is indicative of what I view as the status quo between the ex-pat and their employer. It can be a cold and heartless relationship with both being willing to dispose of the other at any moment. Make sure your friend is aware of this from the outset!

Transformers

24th Jan 2017, 09:54

Good thread People.....! No disrespect but alot of the younger new generation pilots both currently here and joining EK in the near future will not understand how we all feel, maybe they will read back on this in 10 years time and get it. Only time will tell and teach the many victims that are lined up.......!

For me (just my humble opinion) EK is not an airline its a Cult which brain washes some of the best of us......! Remember that line when we all joined "Perception of the brand"...?
I for one refuse to tolerate their unreal and arrogant behavior towards my chosen career, I refuse to sit there and watch them destroy a great job, you all know they are chipping away until enough is enough, so why not leave like I did.
This New Generation of Hypocrites and Parasites within the EK Bouncy Wagon that do nothing until they fall off the edge....... Really...?

So getting back on topic, EK were turning me off the job and whole direction they were taking their Cult Perception and it was not the way I vision myself enjoying a once great job......! Not in the OMA but its the best command decision for any sound minded human to make.... After all its their game and they will make you pay and play one way or another......!

But if you TOLERATE these Terms and Conditions, what next..? Come on, Really......!

Keep Tomorrow Hello Recovery.....!

Fly Safely my Fellow Desdi Zoombie's..........!

Ride On

24th Jan 2017, 12:05

Well said Transformers.....! Agree......!

777-200LR

24th Jan 2017, 13:49

Well said boys! I recently left after 10 years there and like many of you already mentioned; denial. It's denial that keeps us believing that things will improve and how could it possibly get worse?! As an optimist, it took me longer than it should have to resign, maybe the love for flying or the hard work we all put in to reach the stage we're at in our career, I convinced myself I could keep going and how could I possibly give all this up?!

I do hope they are training the cabin crew hard during their 'how to fly for dummies' course; I don't see how else they possibly will crew the 777s with the new destinations coming.

Safe flying to all

Mr Mugabe

24th Jan 2017, 14:09

Wow Henrydog I hate you...
The truth really hurts! Thank you for helping me see the light! We get to an age where we are just too scared of the big change..

Another EK River Rat!

atpcliff

24th Jan 2017, 20:21

If he has the experience, he would probably be a lot better off flying for Atlas and living in DXB. Atlas has a lot of pilots living overseas, and is the reason some of them don't want to leave for AA/UAL/DAL.

JAYTO

25th Jan 2017, 08:13

Its ok boys.....

I got it all sorted. I only need to keep flying until my forex sca.... uh, investment accounts start to payout big.
Easy street here I come.
Not much longer now.

J.

Henrydog

26th Jan 2017, 19:03

"It happens when life calls to us...
after we have done what we were supposed to do,
become who we thought we were supposed to be,
lived as we thought we were supposed to live,
then the safety and comfort and compromise get to us...
and a stirring of restlessness and revolution
sends us off in search of greater adventures and meaning." Anon.

Just saying like...

paokara

29th Jan 2017, 21:28

I pointed out this thread to the individual who I'm speaking to. His reply is "well, I really have no choice. The US carriers won't take me without a degree."

Not sure that I agree, I think the US carriers will soon be desperate enough to hire the experience that they want vs education.

Honestly I have no idea whether Emirates hires most people with their degrees or not. Any insight? I'm thinking that most of us have a college education?
That will never happen
Just a few here and there without a degree if mom or dad is a captain at that airline
99.7% percent have college degree( United, Delta , American, UPS and FedEx statistics by ALPA and Teamsters) and the regionals have 15000 pilots... great pilot factory

ExpatBrat

2nd Feb 2017, 15:11

Thank you, ee Cummings.

it's not EK unfortunately.
EK it's not out of this world,
and in this world the pilot job is getting worse every day everywhere.
having said that, it seems to me that the EK management just hates us, and tries to make our life more miserable every day.
with a certain amount of success it must be said.
like the Outlaw says, young inexperienced pilots, but also desperate pilots from bankrupting airlines will always come, regardless of the amount of s#!t they read on these pages. and that's simply because EK is still better than their present condition.
and EK knows it. that's why they seem to be illogically oblivious to the "retention issue".
this is from someone who is not a young pilot, belongs to the second category, hates this job, but still needs it.
my advice? forget EK, forget flying, look for a different job....
pilots are going to disappear sooner than we think anyway.
Regards,

Kippa

no sponsor

2nd Feb 2017, 20:37

Top post Henry!

:ok:

Geebz

4th Feb 2017, 22:10

If I may replay, only because I'm killing time and don't have much else to do whilst I sip my coffee.

First, I don't work for EK, nor ever have. I am an outsider to the conversation in that regard. Having said that, outside of my own home country, I have worked as a pilot in the ME as well as India, Thailand, and Europe. I had a chance to join EK 15 years ago and many of my buddies at the time did join EK or QR, EK, WY of GF. Those who used a ME carrier as a stepping stone have no regrets for leaving. But their ability to sever the umbilical to their glorified aviator positions seriously cost them overall. IOW, many are still first officers for a US carrier. I became a captain stateside 9 years ago. However, despite the disappointment in their long crawl to the left seat Stateside, none of them regret leaving the ME, not one! All generally tell me their worst day as a FO at a US carrier is better than their best day as a captain at for a ME airline. So the consensus seems pretty obvious there. What isn't as obvious is their willingness to admit that they waited too long to leave. And therein lies the trick, knowing when to leave. Obviously earlier is better than later but how many truly pull the cord early enough. I'm betting the data would point to most waiting too long for whatever reason (fulfilling their bond requirement, getting use to life in DXB or wherever, hoping things will get better at said ME airline... which, as we all know, it never really does).

I did my time in the ME to better my career experiences and prospects for a more rounded overall resume. I have no regrets and I am certain it aided my getting hired by a US Legacy carrier. But I knew when to get out. I refused to let myself get entrenched over there and I knew life, for me anyway, was about what I did outside the job, not what I did as an aviator. I left a very high paying job in the ME to return to my US regional airline job at the time in order to get back into the hiring pipeline of the US legacy carrier that I ultimately ended up flying for. In fact, that job paid so well that I recall a couple of EK captains at the time offering to trade places with me. IOW, it paid significantly more than a EK captain and still I left. I wanted to focus on a career that would give me plenty of time off to pursue my interests and passions outside of work. There are very few aviation jobs that allow this. A US Legacy carrier is one, a month-on/off rotation with a bizjet entity or a contract gig is another. For the most part, career positions with ME carriers and most Asian carriers will just not afford you the time needed to truly pursue the airline pilot lifestyle, which to me always meant plenty of time off. Sure we all love to fly jets. After nearly 27 years as a commercial pilot, I still get a kick at landing in challenging conditions or taking off from some new place. But let's all face it, after the first 90 days on a new type, it's just a job. And those who define themselves by the job itself often find themselves feeling unfulfilled.

I think it's great you're mentoring a kid. I was mentored and I keep in touch with my mentor to this day, a retired B747 captain for a US Legacy who is in his 80s now. I try to pay it forward by mentoring others who show an interest.

The problem with this kid's scenario, in terms of his expectations, is that by the time he meets EK's qualification, likely by his mid to late 20s after college and building time, he'll also be qualified to work for a US carrier. If he squanders that opportunity due to the ME lure of shiny new jets, he will pay for this dearly when he finally does return to the US. I see this quite often at my airline. I work with FOs who are a few years older than me and who have this vast experience database acquired BEFORE they joined our airline. However, because they put off returning to the US they are thousands and thousands of numbers junior to me. I feel for them, as they will never make WB captain at our airline, but we both know their predicament is due to the fact that they got hired so late in life. We all make choices.

By contrast, a colleague of mine got hired by our US Legacy carrier ULTRA-early, compared to everyone else, at age 23. He will spend the last 10 years of his career at #1, and will likely retire with around $10 million (USD) in his retirement plan due to the power of compound interest. I was hired in my mid-30s, I'll be lucky to crack $3-4 million in retirement, and I have to really save diligently to reach that number. Respectable, yes, but I'll never make it beyond the most senior 200 pilots on the list (we have over 13,000 so still not too bad) and I will spend the last 5 years of my career staring up the tailpipe of nearly 1,000 pilots in front of me as they march towards age 65 also. So while I will be senior towards the end of my career, I will never really spend too much time in that coveted position because of all the pilots in front of me. The point here being age and it's relative relation to seniority is the single most important driver in terms of a successful career measurement after airline brand. And we all know the brand we choose is a total crapshoot. IOW, you choose the carrier you wish to spend your career with; yet from there all you can do is hope they are still around when you reach retirement age.

His best use of career energy will be spent pursuing a US Legacy carrier position either through the more traditional (these days anyway) route of commercial aviation climbing or through the military. I'd only go to a ME or overseas carrier IF the plan is to use said carrier as a very short-stint stepping stone (very short) and if all other hiring options in the US were presently off the table at time of my ME carrier applicaiton. Else he might find himself bitter and pulling gear for someone half his age in his home country when he's 45.

TIFWIW.

HPSOV L

5th Feb 2017, 02:58

Rule #1: Start young
Rule #2: Do not leave the country you want to live in just to career build.
Rule #3: Perservere and stay sane.

Tip #1: Vist exotic countries for holidays.

stakeknife

5th Feb 2017, 04:56

Rule 1) We are not all the same, some want to live abroad, some want to stay in their home country. Some love shorthaul, some longhaul, some love being home every night, some love layovers, some love Boeing, some love Airbus!! Don't judge someone elses choices just because they are different to yours, it may be possible that they are perfectly happy with those choices!! Diversity is ok!

Rule 2) Some love the Donald, some don't (sorry couldn't resist)

Rule 3) There are no rules so disregard above 😜😜😜

polax52

5th Feb 2017, 14:05

Geebz: You're talking about something entirely different. There is no doubt that working for an American Unionised Airline is the best work in the World. Unfortunately most of us can't get that work. If you can then you're clearly a fool if you don't take it.

The U.S. legacy carriers are not competitive internationally though and they have to use a lot of BS anti-competitive lobbying to try to keep the competition in check.

just desserts

5th Feb 2017, 15:44

No.

The decision by Hitler to invade the Soviet Union was.

Joining EK is the second.

anson harris

5th Feb 2017, 17:20

There is no doubt that working for an American Unionised Airline is the best work in the World

You sure about that? Maybe for some, but it doesn't appeal to me, that's for sure.

sheikhitup

5th Feb 2017, 18:32

Geebz, if you're talking about Delta, I know someone hired there at 26 a few months before him. They will be ahead of him until retirement, so he'll be number one for about 3 or 4 years, still a great spot to be in no doubt. I also know they've hired several mid 20's pilots a shortly ahead of him but definitely not that young. He'll be a widebody capt for a long time. A lucky guy for sure.

polax52

5th Feb 2017, 20:05

Anson: In the Airline world simply put over the span of a Pilot career; Salary+pension versus days in uniform is better at Unionised U.S. carriers than anywhere else.

The.Humble.Guy

5th Feb 2017, 20:27

Anson: In the Airline world simply put over the span of a Pilot career; Salary+pension versus days in uniform is better at Unionised U.S. carriers than anywhere else.

Is that a true statement for all the guys who lost their pension after the 911 airline crisis?

polax52

5th Feb 2017, 20:32

Well in my experience: even after bankruptcy and furlough it is still a true statement, I've worked in Europe, China, the middle east and the U.S.

birdieonfirst

6th Feb 2017, 02:10

Well in my experience: even after bankruptcy and furlough it is still a true statement, I've worked in Europe, China, the middle east and the U.S.

... but I bet you haven't lost your ENTIRE pension, as some of our more "at age" colleagues from the US have!

:ok:BOF

A6EchoEchoUniform

6th Feb 2017, 16:40

Well, he applied 05 Jan, at 24 years old, 2600 hours, and his app made it through and he's been invited for an interview in Dubai. Think we're hard pressed to find pilots???

JuniorMan

6th Feb 2017, 18:57

Well, he applied 05 Jan, at 24 years old, 2600 hours, and his app made it through and he's been invited for an interview in Dubai. Think we're hard pressed to find pilots???

Amazing! I personally feel a career at EK is far better than any of the US3. Additionally, a 24 year old with 2600 hours has little to no chance of getting an interview invite at any of the US3. He should go for it and never look back.

sluggums

6th Feb 2017, 20:00

Said the person that's never worked at EK?

JuniorMan

6th Feb 2017, 20:31

Anson: In the Airline world simply put over the span of a Pilot career; Salary+pension versus days in uniform is better at Unionised U.S. carriers than anywhere else.

None of the US3 have pensions anymore.

Metro man

6th Feb 2017, 21:25

In the old days you retired from British Airways at 55 on a full pension.

harry the cod

7th Feb 2017, 06:43

And therein Metro man, lies the rub. The industry today is NOT what it was 'in the old days'.

50 years ago, the likes of PanAm, TWA, BOAC, Cathay etc provided a career and lifestyle very different to what even the best today can offer. Senior Captains did indeed retire at 55, often on full pensions. Those that were on wife number 4 had no trouble finding work in the independents. Nowdays, the glamour, security and financial benefits are very different, especially with the likes of Ryanair around. The games changed. Airlines are run by accountants today, not eccentric billionaires, flamboyant CEO's, playboys or government corporations.

For every unhappy pilot in EK, I'll find you one in BA. For every unhappy one in BA, they'll find you one in Delta....and Southwest and Jet Blue and Cathay and Malaysian and Qantas. We're pilots. We moan and complain and we're famous for it. The US pilots may well be in a good place for now but they weren't a few years back. Many pilots lost their livelihood, many senior guys lost jobs and pensions. All of it. Many were furloughed and there's a lot of guys and girls struggling at the foot of this industry trying to survive on $20,000 a year. For the responsibility the job entails, that's criminal in my opinion. Some Pilots, it would appear, have short memories.

Very few, if any airlines, now provide full pilot sponsorships. Even BA will be stopping theirs soon. They'll accept you for a course, but you'll be paying for it all yourself. That's £100,000. 5 years ago, the airline paid.

So, while the thread may well be asking a very valid question, we'll never really know whether it was the right move or not until the day we hang up our flying goggles for the last time. From the comfort of your armchair, as you stare out the window with brandy in hand, only then will you be truly in a position to look back on your entire career and answer that question.

Of course, the quality of the brandy and the view out of the window will answer that question for you!

Harry

White Knight

7th Feb 2017, 08:13

And that Harry sums it up very well👍🏻

fliion

7th Feb 2017, 09:54

...assuming you make it to the chair

fatbus

7th Feb 2017, 10:33

Not trying to point fingers but notable of these american guys are getting hired by the big airlines, if fact some have failed and sit here at EK now with their tail between their legs. Pprune has become to much EK us US . Time to move on, bigger problems ahead for some.

Metro man

7th Feb 2017, 11:09

Speaking of the good old days, a Captain at a major airline would be drawing his pension with around 20 000hrs in his logbook. I'm still a good fifteen years off getting my tie cut in half and being pushed out of the crew room in a wheelchair but will crack my 20k later this year.

With current flight time limitations, sorry TARGETS, I can expect to retire in the low to mid 30k hour range with no pension.

My various employers will have extracted nearly twice as much work out of me and paid me a lot less over the course of my career.

harry the cod

7th Feb 2017, 12:34

notapilot15

7th Feb 2017, 13:54

Nice try Harry. Keep it up.

guts

8th Feb 2017, 04:43

fliion

Absolutely true. Don't know exact figures off the top of my head but several studies into airline pilot retirees has highlighted the difference in life expectancy based on retirement age. Something like 20 years + if you finish at 55, only 2-3 years of retirement if you leave it till 65.

It's those last 10 years that kill you and with the current EASA FTL's debacle, it's only going to get worse.

Still, I guess not having much of a pension will be irrelevant if you only need it for a few years! :uhoh:

Harry
Alpa did a study back when the age 60 rule was being challenged. Stanford compiled the data from all major global airlines, factored BA and CP that retired pilots @55. Results based on 78 hrs per month, basically every year that you worked past 59 took a year off your expiration date. Two traps, 63-67, and 72-76, if you made it past those odds were those of an average longevity curve. Sadly only 36 per cent make it, this job with these hours will simply kill you, do the math. Leave as soon as you can afford to is my advice.

adolf hucker

8th Feb 2017, 06:23

Worst decision? Not at all.

Emirates was, for me, a really interesting blip in my career. If you want to see the world in new aeroplanes and fly for a highly organised institution and be relatively well remunerated, it's a pretty good option. The tricky question is : is it sustainable? Just like many low cost airlines, Emirates will f*ck your life expectancy in return for the experience it offers you.

If you can afford to try Emirates for a few years for the experience, I would highly recommend it. If you join expecting it to be a long-term option, I would encourage you to re-read these threads.

Metro man

8th Feb 2017, 11:25

Back in the old days aircraft didn't have the range and endurance they have today. A LHR - SYD flight would involve three stop overs with rest periods enroute and a longer time at destination, BA even had pilot postings.

These days 14 hour legs are quite normal rather than 8 hour ones. Time down route is minimised and 900 - 1000 hrs a year is expected rather than 600.

The figures given are for previous generations of Pilots who didn't work as hard. It would be frightening to see our figures in 30 years time.

Airlines could afford to offer a generous pension to those retiring at 65 as they wouldn't be paying out very much.

guts

8th Feb 2017, 17:20

And none the guys in the study control group did any polar routes. As this post has eluded to, Emirates is what you make it, good or bad the hours and fatique is having an effect on our lives. May we all be blessed with good genes and a better life insurance policy. And don't forget the previous gen were pretty heavy smokers, and maybe had a bit more alcohol consumption on the 72 hr layovers!

Jack D

8th Feb 2017, 17:57

Highly organized institution ?? Surely you jest ! Wherever did you work prior to joining EK ?

SlavePunishment

10th Feb 2017, 04:36

EK. Nice PAX-Product on the whale especially.
But totally screwed up and useless Flightops Management. The Company winds out everything of their staff and doesnt care about any important inputs to improve your life.
Its not worth it. They are controll freaks and bean counters who do everything to make your private life miserable.

SunchaserMIA

10th Feb 2017, 07:20

After going through most of these posts I must say that they are as interesting as they are shocking.

As I am not a pilot, but still fascinated with DXB and EK, currently working for a European flagship carrier, allow me this question: Is it that bad also for ground staff in, let's say, middle management positions?

I was looking into the option of applying with EK at some point but as I read this I am not sure whether I should really consider it. Is it only that bad for flying staff?

Thanks!

momo95

10th Feb 2017, 10:17

Very few, if any airlines, now provide full pilot sponsorships. Even BA will be stopping theirs soon. They'll accept you for a course, but you'll be paying for it all yourself. That's £100,000. 5 years ago, the airline paid.

Hi Harry,

Without intending a thread drift, would you be able to say where you heard that? Many of us are trying to figure out what BA are doing but no one seems to know, rumours of a rebranded FPP, an MPL and also some rumours about it being self funded are floating about but nothing concrete ... you sound quite sure though.

Thank you :)

nolimitholdem

10th Feb 2017, 13:01

I don't know if joining EK was the worst decision I ever made. Lots of competition in that category.

I do know that leaving EK was the best decision I ever made. :ok:

GoreTex

10th Feb 2017, 15:57

it was only my 2nd worst decision, the worst decision was not to leave 7 years earlier

puff m'call

11th Feb 2017, 08:55

I'm happy to say my tour of duty is coming to an end, just another few months to go.

So happy to be getting away from the airline because is going down hill fast, very fast!!

I've not even got another job yet, I just need a break, this company has destroyed the love and passion I had for aviation. Need to take stock and reform.

Jetkopite

11th Feb 2017, 09:01

Same here working on my escape plan without a job to go to yet.. I am happy to leave with no job just to get my sanity and dignity back.
This airline has made me a bad father and bad husband and cant wait to get out and fall in love with flying again. At the moment I hate what I do even though its been a childhood dream to be a pilot.
I have no regrets coming here as this was one of the best jobs in the World when I joined 10 years ago. Now its defo one of the Worst and pilots prefer to go to Qatar than come anywhere near here..

SunchaserMIA

11th Feb 2017, 10:19

sunchasermia - middle management is same same but different. A friend who works in the office does his job plus a lot of his superiors job (a local). He's expected to travel around the network then go straight into the office on his return - weekends / days off when working are not credited. He worked extremely long hours then was constantly being phoned at home, as a lot of people refuse to make decisions and prefer to pass the buck!. His health was being affected and so he now leaves the office and turns his phone off. To protect his health he is now effectively working to rule so that he gets down time to recover.
While I'm sure other airline companies work their staff hard, there is no union protection in the UAE so you're on your own.
Think very hard before coming out here!

Thank you for this insight. I might really have to look into it further before I make a decision. Especially as my current airline is a great employer. Perfect work-life balance, good and friendly working culture and very good benefits. Always confirmed business class for duty travel, and even for leisure a C/J class listing usually is safe if you do your homework. Heard that might also be different at EK.

As my main idea is to just get out of Switzerland at some point, I just might look out for an assignment within my current employer. Besides that I was looking out to UA or SQ which might also be options.

Talparc

11th Feb 2017, 10:55

Sunchaser to answer your questions about treatment of ground staff you will find some interesting infos here:

https://donotflyemirates.wordpress.com

Joker11

11th Feb 2017, 14:23

Thank you for this insight. I might really have to look into it further before I make a decision. Especially as my current airline is a great employer. Perfect work-life balance, good and friendly working culture and very good benefits. Always confirmed business class for duty travel, and even for leisure a C/J class listing usually is safe if you do your homework. Heard that might also be different at EK.

As my main idea is to just get out of Switzerland at some point, I just might look out for an assignment within my current employer. Besides that I was looking out to UA or SQ which might also be options.

I work here as a ground staff memmber. I hate every moment of it and I an looking to get out. My entire life has been consumed by my work. I got no life. My health is down the drain. My colleagues are leaving in droves. All my offdays end with a nightshift, which only leaves me with one day off.My first day back at work usually starts at 5-6 o'clock in the morning. I don't look forward to coming to work anymore. I lost my love and passion for aviation since coming here.

SunchaserMIA

11th Feb 2017, 16:35

Sunchaser to answer your questions about treatment of ground staff you will find some interesting infos here:

https://donotflyemirates.wordpress.com

I have seen this site but to be honest I am not sure how neutral this is. Sounds to me like just hate being unloaded against EK.

Emma Royds

11th Feb 2017, 18:31

I have seen this site but to be honest I am not sure how neutral this is. Sounds to me like just hate being unloaded against EK.

Blogs like this are designed to be factual and not neutral but what is more telling is what drives and motivates someone to give up their time to set up such blogs and contribute to them. Especially when they probably moved to Dubai being reasonably positive in the first place.

guts

12th Feb 2017, 02:32

Sunchaser do your self a favor, stay with your current airline, get married to a rich guy, start a family and travel positive space to DXB for a very short vacation 4 days max, be happy to see it out the window on your departure back home. Thats how much we like it here.

Ekisnotthebest

12th Feb 2017, 05:15

EK pilots arent unhappy with EK. They are unjaooy because their elitist asses are finally not special anymore and they have no clue why? They blame EK but they have to face the fact, being a pilot doesn't bring you chicks, money, power or chicks anymore. You're an employee and EK or any company doesn't give a crap who you are.

Face the fact guys. Flying changed. The Times of 200k and 2 flights a month have been long gone. Stop living in a dream and stop crying that you became a bad father/husband due to EK or flying. EK maybe changed but the world has changed. Flying has changed. Your love and passion was not for flying, it was for the aforementioned 4 things. They have gone, you have now a profession you actually need to work in. Poor you....

Oh this account will be banned as well :) gotta love the **** moderators here.

Only thing bad in EK is facing one of these ****ers in the FD. Good thing most of the CPTs and FOs accept what happened and still make the job nice.
Too bad the negative ****ers invest in making everyone around them negative as well. I was flying with an FO who was complaining about not having OFF days around leave or more productivity pay. The guy never had it in the first place but somehow missed it? Nope, just because some negative dick probably drained his positive feeling on an 8 hour flight and made him change.

Thanks dick

Praise Jebus

12th Feb 2017, 06:12

get married to a rich guy, start a family

And that's supposed to be good advise....?

adolf hucker

12th Feb 2017, 06:34

jetkopite and puff m'call,

Sad, but not surprised, to hear of your discontent with the job due to the way Emirates have managed to suck the joy out of flying. I experienced the same with both Emirates and my previous employer, the worst low cost airline in Europe (and still an embarrassment to the industry).

If it's of any interest, there is light at the end of the tunnel - I left Emirates, currently fly for a company I respect, have a great work/life balance and actually enjoy going to work. It took me 2 company changes and 9 years to actually enjoy the job of being a commercial pilot. I realise that it's a bit of a leap to leave the cloistered and elevated prison that is flying in Dubai but, believe me, there's nothing like being in charge of your own destiny and in control of the lives of you and your family -priceless!

Best of luck to both of you in your future endeavours.

SunchaserMIA

12th Feb 2017, 10:16

get married to a rich guy

I am male, my salary is actually quite good being about an average US MBA salary and I do live in a great relationship.
My airline already does offer positive space tickets in J for almost nothing and I get to travel to DXB on a regular basis on duty.

Basically what I wanted to find out here is whether EK is a good option to continue an airline management career path. I am the type of person who thinks that in aviation everyone contributes an equally important part to a common goal and that team spirit and motivation are paramount to reach this. Treating staff badly is not acceptable, regardless of the laws a company is bound to.

What I wanted, and still want to, is to move out of Europe at some point. Therefore I am looking into several options, one of which is just to take an abroad assignment with my current carrier. However, switching to another airline still is an option just to see how others are doing it. My love for aviation is still burning and I want to go on with this. I love the airliner lifestyle I am currently living so I wouldn't not switch if the outlook is worse.

Joker11

12th Feb 2017, 11:06

I am male, my salary is actually quite good being about an average US MBA salary and I do live in a great relationship.
My airline already does offer positive space tickets in J for almost nothing and I get to travel to DXB on a regular basis on duty.

Basically what I wanted to find out here is whether EK is a good option to continue an airline management career path. I am the type of person who thinks that in aviation everyone contributes an equally important part to a common goal and that team spirit and motivation are paramount to reach this. Treating staff badly is not acceptable, regardless of the laws a company is bound to.

What I wanted, and still want to, is to move out of Europe at some point. Therefore I am looking into several options, one of which is just to take an abroad assignment with my current carrier. However, switching to another airline still is an option just to see how others are doing it. My love for aviation is still burning and I want to go on with this. I love the airliner lifestyle I am currently living so I wouldn't not switch if the outlook is worse.

Stay the hell away from EK then or any airline in the Middle East for that matter!

sluggums

12th Feb 2017, 11:07

SunchaserMIA

12th Feb 2017, 11:26

It's good that your love for aviation is still burning. But if there's one thing you could be almost 100% certain of, it's that moving to EK would piss on your bonfire. Be careful what you wish for amigo...

Absolutely get your point and I do want to avoid ending up in DXB but not liking my job. The overwhelming amount of negative comments towards ek are definitely to be considered.

BigGeordie

12th Feb 2017, 12:00

Sounds to me as if you are completely unsuitable for EK (and Middle East in general) management in just about every possible way. That is a compliment, by the way.

nolimitholdem

12th Feb 2017, 18:28

EK pilots arent unhappy with EK. They are unjaooy because their elitist asses are finally not special anymore and they have no clue why? They blame SO but they have to face the fact, being a pilot doesn't bring you chicks, money, power or chicks anymore. You're an employee and SO or any company doesn't give a crap who you are.

Face the fact guys. Flying changed. The Times of 200k and 2 flights a month have been long gone. Stop living in a dream and stop crying that you became a bad father/husband due to EK or flying. EK maybe changed but the world has changed. Flying has changed. Your love and passion was not for flying, it was for the aforementioned 4 things. They have gone, you have now a profession you actually need to work in. Poor you....

Ummm....what? Is this a 13 year old cabin crew stirring the pot? lol What is SO?

Sorry to inform you, but it's still quite possible to make far more than 200k a year as a pilot, and strangely, that still asserts quite a bit or power to "bring chicks"...lol

Is this a wind-up? It's true EK is a mess these days but not sure what that has to do with things elsewhere.

Take your money and experience and sell it at a place that gives what it's worth. They're out there. :)

FlightDetent

12th Feb 2017, 20:58

Propaganda trolls are taking over. :/

ruserious

13th Feb 2017, 08:15

Its taken the B*stards 6 years but today they broke me.
How did they manage that

natops

13th Feb 2017, 13:21

6 years and really active to find another outfit.

Joker11

13th Feb 2017, 15:06

Its taken the B*stards 6 years but today they broke me.

I couldn't in good conscience recommend this place to a friend let alone an enemy.

Like many others have said the routes and your work mates are great.

What's not so great is the frankly medieval attitude displayed by those in the bouncy castle. I may hasten to add more often than not perpetuated by people from first world countries that should and would know better.

Complete and utter disregard for the human/emotional toll is ops normal.

So today was the day that I sent out the resume in the hope that anything is better than this. It's been a roller coaster 6 years but no one can sustain this for a career.

I am in the same boat mate. I spend my entire nightshift applying for jobs so I can get out of here!

The Outlaw

13th Feb 2017, 15:23

PBI...

WTF?

Why are YOU asking? SHE should be doing the asking and then you top it off with a statement like "Who knows if she'll love being a pilot"? Aren't we a little late to be be figuring that out now?

Based on your post, I'd say send her back to school to study for a profession without all the bull****e that this one encompasses, do it now while she is young and don't let the bitter resentment of time set in!

God forbid that the child aviators of today should ever have to fly anything with a propellor, or load and unload freight and the likes of that! Hell no, lets just push them into a wide body right out of flight school then fill it with 600 people who might be expecting someone with just a touch more worldly experience and maybe a little "seat of the pants" airmanship.

And I have to babysit that?

Buffalo Airways in Yellowknife is always looking for new recruits, Joe has a soft spot for the girls and she will learn to fly properly.

Try these guys, there is a show about them called Ice pilots NWT. An easy gig in the arctic. Just send them a CV, they'll snap her up.

Buffalo Airways - Operations,
Maintenance, Charters, Fire Suppression
PO BOX 2015
108 Berry Street
Yellowknife, NT X1A 2R3
T 1 867-873-6112
F 1 867-873-8393
E [email protected]

Ask for Joe or Mikey.

PS..Joe likes it when you tell about yourself and how much you know.

bafanguy

13th Feb 2017, 21:31

"...I'd say send her back to school to study for a profession without all the bull****e that this one encompasses..."

The Outlaw,

Is there a list of those available ? :-)))

Officer Kite

13th Feb 2017, 21:52

Despite being aware of all the negatives waiting down the line ... It's still not easy to convince yourself not to go for it. We just suck it up and keep going. I still couldnt imagine myself doing anything else for a living though, cos despite the list of negatives, no other job interests me whatsoever, and even those jobs have their negatives.

hopingforemirates

18th Feb 2017, 12:28

In 2006 I resigned from Delta Airlines as a B737 FO and came here.

Since then I've made exceptional friends, served with great crews, saw more of the world than I would have if I had stayed at Delta, earned my command on the B777, saved lots of money and my last landing into Dubai will be on my 55th birthday.

I'm leaving flying (and working), happily, and starting the next phase of life. I'll look back on my experiences here with very fond memories.

I don't regret it for a second and coming here was the best decision ever!

The Outlaw

18th Feb 2017, 14:39

Push Button,

I too paid for every flight hour I took, studied the books myself and kept my head down and pressed forward one small step at a time, slept in cars and a lot of couches along the way too. I would do it all again in a heartbeat if I could. Along the way I learned what perseverance, focus and determination meant. Couple that with self respect and that fact that no one gave me a career on a silver platter makes me feel pretty damn good about my accomplishments. I also know that I can do whatever it takes to see a task through to the end. Why is that a bad trait to pass along to your kids? Personally I don't think you do kids any favours by giving them everything.

The first 8 years of my earnings were just about enough to live rent free and pay for food and the odd drink on a date.

I've flown a lot of dinosaurs as well starting from a C47 and slowly working my way up to something with a working heater. We were expected to help mechanics if we broke down on a job and I still have the frostbite and scars to prove it. It was an adventure and more importantly it was MY adventure, not one daddy handed me.

That was the way it was in my day. Today I have to endure complaints from certain individuals because they had to start right seat on a 777 and not a 380. If you mention electromechanical instruments, radial engines, carb heat, dilution, freight loading, floats etc, they wonder if your speaking greek.

However, the experience you get from flying in summer without weather radar, or winter without working de-icer boots or remote locations without legal reserves gives you a very good foundation for survival and airmanship that just cant be written into the books for the "slaves to the magenta line" generation to understand, that has to be experienced.

fliion

18th Feb 2017, 18:34

One of the nicer posts on here..

UPS a great gig.

30 yrs, 26 Capt... yet still come across as humble and genuinely interested in looking for info for your daughter.

As the brits would say....take a bow son.

Officer Kite

18th Feb 2017, 23:52

No right or wrong ... whatever works.

Outlaw, it is hard not to have respect for you, or those who went about it the way you did. However the sad reality is that today it doesn't quite work like that anymore down this end. Most airlines have their own schools from which they pick their cadets, and other airlines pre select their cadets and send them to these schools. Some airlines even have select schools and they will only pick people who have been to these schools (BA, KLM, easyJet to name a few).

Many airlines, especially in Europe, are only even taking people who trained the integrated way. If you went modular and your cv isn't straightforward (training in different countries, hours here and there in all different ops etc) it goes straight to the bin. I've been told this directly by my own airline's recruitment pilots. It's how it is today ...

In reality, whilst of course it would be great to go get a ppl, instruct, do anything and everything to build my hours, fly all sorts of machines and gain a vast wealth of knowledge and experiences that no book can ever replace ... but if you want to be a pilot in the safest, most efficient way, that is no longer the way unfortunately.

BLOGGSON

27th Feb 2017, 16:18

Is it for Green Card holders only? Or does Mr President Trump want to allow more Brits in?

gearlever

27th Feb 2017, 16:30

Isn't UPS one of the top pay companies?

spanishfly69

27th Feb 2017, 16:43

Button, check your private mgs

Laker

27th Feb 2017, 20:12

UPS second year FO minimum pay guarantee is $170,000usd/year. Top of scale CA minimum guarantee is 300,000/year. It's pretty easy to go well above those figures if you work extra trips. Pension is basically $4,000 times years of service. Example 25 years of service would equal a $100,000year pension. Good job if you can get it. You need a US passport or green card.

jack schidt

28th Feb 2017, 16:43

Having been in EK for a LAaarge number of years I see the following. If you are under 30 or over 45 with seniority in Command in the ME then EK was a (surprise) reasonably good move.

For the impatient (treated unfairly) or "Grass is Greener" types, always remember that the green grass is due to the large amount of "poop" put on the grass in that field.

Be careful what you wish for, both getting in and getting out.

Jack..

Divertnow

2nd Mar 2017, 02:35

Bloggson:
If you listen to President Donald Trumps speech on immigration to Congress last night.
He stated that the plan is to accept the best and brightest, based on professional qualifications.
Heck they accepted me, and I'm far from it.

I would also expect there to be another category of eligible's.
That of Eastern European super models.

Laker.
What you said is correct, but it is in fact far more lucrative.

They also give you a 12% B-fund pension contribution up to the Federal limit of $42,000 a year.
Captains hit the limit about mid November.

There is no 401K match, but having contributed into it for 30+ years that fund is considerable.

I work four on, ten off all year long. I don't need a vacation, as life is one long one.
So I sell my five weeks back to them.

They buy my unused sick bank back from me every year.

There is a discount stock purchase plan.
The dividend rate is exceptional.

The regular A-fund pension will go to $4200 in 2021.
So after 30 years maximum, the payout will be $126,600/year.
And I'm gone.

The top pay will go to $337/hr by 2021.

December is crazy around here. I sign up for 150% extra trips all month long.

Not that I'd know what to do with it all.
I never quite figured that part of life out.
I'm happiest with an old Ford pick up truck, and a dog.

There's more to life than money.
As a company to work for, they have been most excellent.

I'm not bragging on myself.
For I did nothing, other than ride the crest of a wave.

I just looked at your pay rate on airlinepilotpay.
I don't think I've ever seen a group of pilots more deserving of a 100% pay raise.

I want your job 😂!

fatbus

2nd Mar 2017, 04:04

Why is there even 1 US pilot this here then?

TOGA!

2nd Mar 2017, 07:37

fatty

Most of the young ones are gone or are going soon. Those with just a few years left (like me) are wise just to gut it out. The 40 year old guys/gals are the ones who have a tough choice to make.

It is not all roses at UPS or any other carrier for that matter. I know a striking Eastern pilot who quit UPS in 89 or 90 time frame over an argument about carrying coffee on a night time PHL ramp. I retired from a major carrier and opted for a life change in Dubai. I was later hired by UPS in the summer of 2007 to go fly the 400 in Anchorage. I would have started in early Dec. 2007 only to be furloughed at the height of the GFC in Jan. 2009. As much as I wanted to go to UPS I stuck it out and it turned out to be the right choice, as of today. Timing is everything.

fatbus

2nd Mar 2017, 08:12

TOGA , my point exactly. Everyone want you to believe everything is fantastic back in the states. Each to his own. I personally know 20 + US guys here with no intention of returning. I'm starting to despise going on a flt and hearing nothing but how much a Delta 777 Capt earns. I tell the guy go be a 777 Delta Capt, oh wait your only a FO and may never get to the LHS of that 777, that is usually followed by " as an FO your making 200 k +" . My response is " what are you waiting for". . No beers down route ,which is probably a good thing.

Joker11

2nd Mar 2017, 08:40

Maybe we all had high hopes coming here and have been left deeply disappointed.

stakeknife

2nd Mar 2017, 09:05

A wise man once told me "If you are disillusioned it is probably because you had an illusion to start with".

nolimitholdem

2nd Mar 2017, 13:17

Sorry fatty, you just sound envious. button push ignored made it pretty clear it wasn't meant to be a brag, just an idea of what's possible at the top end of the pay scale, which - obviously - isn't EK. So what?

Of course not every American pilot works at UPS, and not every US job has T&C like that. Most of the US pilots I met at EK were ex-regional guys for whom EK was a great opportunity to advance their career and make more money, in some cases a LOT more. Very few legacy mainline guys or from places like UPS, and if they were, usually just flying out a few last years for fun. Virtually all the US pilots I know of have already returned, most infamously a certain EK promotional video star. I do know one or two that are recently upgraded or close to command at EK so going to hang on for a bit longer - makes sense.

Why does it bother you to hear that Delta captains make more than you do? Don't hate on the young guys excited at the chance to go home and escape EK, just because that avenue isn't open to you.

kesskidi

2nd Mar 2017, 22:18

is UPS considering Canadian ATPL / passport guys with light jet worldwide comand time ? for F/O spot of course.
sorry for the hijack....

fatbus

3rd Mar 2017, 05:16

No limit, I couldn't give a rats what Delta Capt earns, I just laugh at FOs comparing the themselves to a US3 777 Capt

nolimitholdem

3rd Mar 2017, 06:44

Again, why do you care?

Seems that it isn't the FO's who are comparing themselves to a US3 B777 captain, and I can certainly see how that would be painful for an EK skipper.

TangoUniform

3rd Mar 2017, 13:06

Fatty,
Probably they are just moaning because it becomes quite obvious how under valued our talents and skills are here. We can only measure our company's respect for us by the terms and conditions they impose on us. 98 hard hours in a 28 day month? Does that say something?

After all things considered, housing, education allowance, Foreign tax exemption etc., the best I can come up with is mediocre B737 pay. That does not include the conditions we work under. If I am working now as I was over ten years ago, 70 or so hours a month, and being compensated as I am, and having a life with days off for recovery, I would say fine. But you know that's not the case.

In addition the employees at Delta this year are splitting something along the lines of $1.3 billion for their annual profit share. No, that's not the company's profit, but rather what will be distributed for their employees. What is wrong with this company?

fliion

3rd Mar 2017, 20:30

Button

In no way would I defend EK anymore in light of the lack of response to the current crewing crisis and the amateur hour that's going on in Flt Ops

That said - where are you getting that we make less than a Cessna or Allegient pilot.

How much in net terms do you think we make?

donpizmeov

3rd Mar 2017, 20:38

Button your top pay level for EK is wrong by a good margin.

Laker

3rd Mar 2017, 20:52

Button,

Airlinepilotcentral has bad info on EK. When you add up all the pay including housing allowances it's more like 19-20kmonth for a CA with about 5-7 years on property. If you wanted to convert that to a US style contract it would be roughly $225/hour. Not stellar but not too bad either. EK pilots also get some perks like driver to and from work, good hotels, free medical, travel benefits, etc. The area where EK comes up short in a big way is schedule. The schedules at EK are brutal. The pay is close but the work load is significantly higher.

Buford

3rd Mar 2017, 22:27

Laker, free medical? Give me a break. That's a complete conflict of interest having the company provide medical insurance. It's generally a PITA getting them to pay for procedures these days, particularly for those of us with spouses & kids. Button isn't far off top pay level considering the hours we put in and the equipment we fly. There's a top out to years served and duty hours have essentially gone up over the years. Don't kid yourself. Schedules won't improve. EK is a sinking ship. As a family, we've had a 21 year history with EK; wife was a f/a from 1996, I joined in 2005 & sis-in-law was a f/a from 2007. Morale is at an all time low and conditions will not improve. Anyone hoping for things to change are sadly clinging to hope that EK will 'do the right thing'. Good luck with that...thankfully our 21 year history is coming to a close.

Laker

3rd Mar 2017, 22:51

I don't disagree that EK is a mess. I left and I'm very happy I did. I was just trying to provide a few of the positives at EK for Button. I don't remember getting a monthly medical deduction at EK. I get a monthly medical deduction at my US Airline. I agree that the coverage at EK probably leaves a lot to be desired. There are plenty of jobs out there. It's good you are moving on. I just don't understand the people who say it's a terrible job yet stay for 10-20 years.

nolimitholdem

4th Mar 2017, 02:27

19-20k USD/month for "5-7 years on the property" seems a tad optimistic. Basic in the low 40k's, housing allowance 16k, flight pay maybe another 7k. So roughly 65k AED, which is less than 18k USD. Maybe more if you fly insane hours.

But button push ignore does seem to be ignoring the tax-free implications, particularly for non-US citizens who don't have to report to the IRS...

harry the cod

4th Mar 2017, 05:11

What is the going rate for income tax in the US?

It's all well and good coming out with hourly rates but ultimately it's what goes into your bank account that really matters. Net pay, that's what's important, not gross! Even assuming a modest 25% in the US, that would bring the big 3's take home to a comparable level. Bear in mind the time it would take to get to those higher pay scales, and the EK salary is good.

What's not so good is the constant high hours and productivity that's being forced upon us each and every month. Combine this with the rostering patterns, report times and multitude of inane emails and FCI's to keep up with, the pay becomes somewhat secondary in importance. The balance between quality of life and income is what we strive for but that balance has been continually tipped out of our favour over the last 2-3 years, more so for those that flew the 330. In fact, the rot set in when the then incumbent DSVP changed the policy on hours. A shameful sell out by an individual with only one vested interest, his own.

Ultimately, you make a decision to stay or go but as has been alluded to, those that continue to stay and bleat have only themselves to blame.

As for Button push ignore, I think he's a wind up merchant and a fairly successful one at that! 'Saw a billboard along the I-24......'

What a load of ****e.

Harry

Buford

Must have had a few good years of profit share with all those family members......!! Seriously though, good luck in your next move. Rgds, Harry

fatbus

4th Mar 2017, 05:21

Most 10-15 years TRI/TRE about 70-75 AED without housing or schooling. 777 TRE are a bit more if doing extra duties.

Trader

4th Mar 2017, 05:42

10 year Capt base (if he upgraded in 3-4 years) is around 42,000.

So I am not sure how 75,000 is calculated!

TangoUniform

4th Mar 2017, 06:15

What some are not informed about, at many of the majors there are numerous contractual means to earn a few bucks more. Those rates are basic rates. Add in per diem, add in international override pay, leave payback (easily done for flying international, not so for domestic), open time pickup, flying on day off override (when working only 12 days a month, easily done). These are all available, IF you want a money lifestyle. If you want an easier lifestyle, then do the minimum.

The big difference is, ready?, choices. What choices are available here? The only one I can think of is the, if you don't like it, blah blah. But many don't have that choice to continue elsewhere. Age issues (oldies) that need some retirement cash, nothing available in the home country or not the best to raise a family, etc, etc. and this is where they have many by the short hairs. There will always be a solid cadre of pilots here that have little choice and "have" to stay. And that's one reason they can keep our conditions so miserable.

It's not about leave here as a captain, join a legacy and instantly make $350k a year. It's about job and pay comparison for doing a third more work and close to half the pay. This place is not marketed as a Allgient, Ryan Air, Spirit, whatever low cost comes to mind. It is branded as a luxury airline with impeccable service. And who delivers that? The employees.

TangoUniform

4th Mar 2017, 06:27

FATTY
A TRE at a legacy, doing that same work on a wide body can make upwards of 130,000 AED per month. That would be with a 15% override on the hourly rate and working the equivalent of 100 hours and doing some extra work on days off. About the same work as here. Check rides, Sims, Seat filling, line training, FAA designee check rides, etc. All at an override rate.

But again, one is not going to leave this airline and step right into that job. But here, you can be a TRE at Ryan Air, come here as a DEC and soon be knighted as a TRE. See how lucky we are.

Did I forget contractual protection?

fatbus

4th Mar 2017, 07:32

Children stop comparing, that's the whole point, it's a moot point. All I was stating is the money at EK . Trader , I was referring to TRL/ TRE plus flying pay plus 12% plus appointment pay .

Laker

4th Mar 2017, 07:35

10 year Capt base (if he upgraded in 3-4 years) is around 42,000.

So I am not sure how 75,000 is calculated!

Basic 40k
Flight pay Avg 5k
Housing 16k
Provident co contribution 5k

Total 66k plus the occasional productivity and profit share.

Buford

4th Mar 2017, 07:49

What's the point of EK dirhams if you're dead tired earning it and on death's door by the time you've left EK? I'm taking a major pay cut leaving here but am ready for a huge quality of life improvement on MY terms.

donpizmeov

4th Mar 2017, 15:09

The EK recruiting site shows a year 1 captain salary after 85hrs as $11601, and a year 1 FO at $8186. Year 1 Capt is step 14 (I think that's right). Max step is step 39.

fliion

4th Mar 2017, 17:21

Button

You are quite a bit off the mark for various reasons but not here to give free ads for EK as to why.

So moving on.

As many have said the money at moment not issue. Yes it's an issue but we need our health to spend it.

No one can sustain these rosters over a period without actively seeking an out. They are brutal, I say again to all considering joining- they are brutal on the body and mind. Try getting a 9-5er or your missus or an LCC guy or US Major guy or whoever to stay awake through the night - 11 out of 30 and have 8 days off. Then do that month in month out for say 10 months a year for four years. That is our life on the 777. Anyone here - is purely doing it for their family. It is getting harder as you age.

The Co. doesn't care in the slightest. The comm style is the same - directives with arrogance, an occasional soft skill 'optic' about a 'lively' Fleet Forum or an open 'walk in' with fleet at 7am on a wed. Who the f%#* will get up at 5:30 on min day off to do that or go in at end of trip - bad decision, too angry.

The real problem EK now have is that that the high attrition will be a constant over the months and years ahead. Not all will resign this year because of individual 'holding' reasons (kids finishing scool, drawn out recruitment prosesses in Asia, upgrade coming etc) BUT most are creating exit plans or currently acting on them.

There is nothing they are willing to do outside the box. No balls, no bravery, no realistic calling of a crisis meeting.
It's just "let's keep going and see how far it goes."

As to CM?

Pfft. If you're that good and can't see what's coming....well you're just not that good.

You better turn up soon son.

bluesideoops

6th Mar 2017, 00:32

Seems like the organisations described in this guys article could well include EK:
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/has-sms-had-its-day-graham-hamilton

ruserious

6th Mar 2017, 02:46

Totally spot on analysis, very well written....but they don't care, as long as they can keep fiddling while Rome dies

Neptune Spear

7th Mar 2017, 13:27

Congratulations Buford on your new job! You'll love Delta. The difference between EK and Delta is night and day. You won't believe it there is that much of a disconnect.
We have a 9 month captain based in NY and a 17 month captain in ATL. You'll upgrade in no time and the bottom captain pay is $240,000 a year without even trying so your paycut you alluded to won't be for long. Besides you can't compare a B-777 International widebody captain to a B-717 domestic FO.
You are in the midst of perfect timing. Emirates is sinking fast and with Trump in office hopefully he'll put a stop to the Middle East Airlines unchecked expansion into the US. Delta is on the rise. I will probably get a $60,000 check for our retro and profit share this month and with retirements and the fleet renewal the upside is boundless.
You will be about the 7th Emirates pilot to join in the last 6 months. Hopefully there will be more because your only regret about leaving EK is that you didn't do it earlier. You will feel so much better only working 75-80 hours a month and the latest I landed last year was 12:30am. Bring your sunglasses because we do a lot of daylight flying. That might be hard to get use to and what will not be hard to get used to is no one looking over your shoulder and no one questioning you or putting you down.
Welcome to the Family. You'll love it not just because it's Delta but it's not Emirates.

GoreTex

7th Mar 2017, 17:09

as soon as they take expats I'll apply

harry the cod

7th Mar 2017, 17:35

NS

Sounds great and in all sincerity, glad it's working out for you.

I Just hope for your sake that Delta ups it game onboard as the service was nothing short of appalling last time I had the 'pleasure' of flying with you. And that was First Class, from LA to Tampa. Night flight on 737 with crappy old business class seats that had 36-38" legroom and not much recline. All I got was a luke warm, institutional blend coffee from the 70yr old grandmother who spent most of the night behind a curtain. She looked closer to death than retirement by the time we landed.

So bad was the experience that I can honestly say I'd would never, ever repeat it with that Airline. Oh, and got chatting to a positioning F/O who said the commute was killing him. Didn't go into details but wasn't as enthusiastic as you.

Still, that was 2 years ago so maybe things have changed....

Harry

Emma Royds

7th Mar 2017, 19:05

At the end of the day Delta appears to be looking after is employees better than EK does and it does so with a far inferior product as well, which is even more admirable. If Delta is profitable and appears to be delivering its promises to its employees, then they must be doing something right.

We can debate seat pitch and the age of cabin crew until the cows come home but lets get the priorities right. Delta is comfortably making money and it seems to be making an effort at least to keep its employees on side at least. EK gave up on keeping its employees happy years ago.

With the paper thin yields at present along with over capacity in the industry, if my employer was in the black and making an effort to keep its employees happy, then the seat pitch they offer or the number of grey strands that your average cabin crew member sports, pales into insignificance. I have not met one expat here in the Gulf who complained about his/her transcon commute to or from work.

I have had the privilege of travelling long haul in F on other airlines whilst being an EK employee and the attention to detail elsewhere often leaves us at EK standing. Take a carrier that motivates its employees and who are encouraged to 'go off script' to bring that smile to the customer. That is something we rarely see at EK.

Neptune Spear

7th Mar 2017, 19:13

You're comparing apples and oranges Harry. Yes Emirates service in the back is way better than Deltas but Delta's pilot pay and contract is leaps and bounds better than EK by a factor of 10. You are a pilot aren't you?
Delta made almost $6 Billion with its high wages and labor costs. Emirates will be lucky to make a Billion even with its slave labor force.
I don't commute and I can't imagine in your example a FO doing a transcontinental commute. I also can't imagine what's killing him. Is it the 80 hours a month he's flying or the 13 days he has off a month on reserve? What's his gripe? He's going to get at least an extra $50,000 this month to go along with his Industry leading pay.
Are you really comparing Delta to Emirates? How many pilots are applying to,Emirates vs how many are leaving EK to go to Big D?

Uplink

7th Mar 2017, 19:23

Is that the same Big D that stole all the pensions from their pilot force, back in the day?

With 6 million profit, wouldn't it be a good move for the carrier to recompense their pilots with at least some of their lost pensions. I have spoken to guys who had more than $12,000 per month, reduced to $1,200 per month pension. It means that at the age of 80, yes 80, they are still instructing in the sim.

I don't know which is worse, a company that is pretty much wiping itself and its employees in the now or when they retire....

They are both as bad as each other.

CaptainChipotle

7th Mar 2017, 20:58

Harry is a bit jaded. He's proved it enough.

He would rather have better service on his ALT ticket than have an airline treat him like a human being for the other 364 days of the year.

He has worked for a long list of sh*tty companies so he is a bit jealous when you throw in the name of the most respected airline to work for.

Whatsa matter princess Harry? No champaign on Delta? No hot towel? No shower?

Uplink:
Delta wasn't the only airline to do that. I'm not sure if you were paying attention but those were pretty troubled times... actually unprecedented in the aviation industry considering its young age (theoretically speaking). The only thing that doesn't change is that things change. Emirates "used" to be good.

Neptune Spear

7th Mar 2017, 22:02

Uplink, the active Delta pilots voted to get rid of their pensions. This was a dumb idea but pilots being pilots they also screwed the retirees as they lost their pension and their medical.
I find it hard to believe that a retiree is only making $1,200 a month. It probably is more along the lines of $4,000 a month. Criminal for sure but it's not like he is starving unless he made some bad life choices, like joining Emirates for example.
Harry is probably one of the very few pilots who would rather slave for EK than work for a respectable Airline. There still are some Airlines worth having a career with. Emirates is not one of them, not by a long shot.

Officer Kite

7th Mar 2017, 22:13

Pilots arguing (over something trivial) on an online forum ... handbags away boys :\

I do often wonder what passengers would think if they were to read some of these threads ... but then again if they knew everything that happened "behind the scenes" in this business very few of them would set foot on an aircraft again :E

bafanguy

7th Mar 2017, 23:02

"I find it hard to believe that a retiree is only making $1,200 a month. It probably is more along the lines of $4,000 a month."

Neptune Spear,

You might want to do quite a bit more serious homework on that subject before you speak with such authority. Some guys are making $ZERO per month from the PBGC after 30+ years of loyal service to Widget Wonderland (and ALPA) due to the termination of the defined benefit pension plan. Know anything about the Pension Benefit Guarantee Corp ?

Well, we do.

TOGA!

8th Mar 2017, 02:00

Neptune S,

I am happy you have landed a new job and like it. I think it is bad karma to wave around how much money you make on and on. Long before you showed up, this industry paid well. It turned around and went south in a heart beat. Pilots gave up work rules, pay and pensions with a knife at their throats. Enjoy the day but watch out for tomorrow. In 1988 I could have never imagined I would be where I am today. Be careful out there and fly safe.

TineeTim

8th Mar 2017, 04:38

You're comparing apples and oranges Harry.

Haha.
No, he's comparing filet mignon to a steaming pile of sh$t. Yet, somehow, he manages to try and defend the steaming pile.

The only people not actively trying to leave Ek at the moment are those who can't. Says it all.

keepitrealok

8th Mar 2017, 05:18

It means that at the age of 80, yes 80, they are still instructing in the sim.

Lucky them.

If a current EK pilot works 15+ years at EK and retires at 60-65 having worked under the present work practices they will miss out on turning 80 by about a decade and a half!

fatbus

8th Mar 2017, 08:37

Age 13 , sounds about right!

harry the cod

8th Mar 2017, 10:13

NS

By a factor of ten? You don't need to justify the move for our sake, just your own. As I said, I'm happy for you and glad it's working.

Captain Chipotle

Jaded? Not at all. I'm not the defender of all EK by a long mark but try to keep it real. What I do find jaded is the constant negativity by certain individuals who, several years later, are still here. If they're really that unhappy, why stay? As for my 'long list of previous ****ty airlines', there were two, both of which were anything but ****ty. And what's your point? Do we not try to better ourselves in our careers and move on or is the idea to start at the best and work backwards? Your post would imply so. 15 years ago, EK was very different regarding work schedules than now, but that can be said of the vast majority of other airlines too. Not for one minute do I think any Delta pilot is enjoying a package nowadays that is superior to his former colleagues 30 years ago. The question would be whether, if we could turn back the clock, how many of us would apply to EK again. I'm sure many would say no but there are still a large number where life has worked well for them here. It is my experience that overall, the guys from the US have been the most unsettled which is probably why we're seeing so many return. And why not. Union protection, less flying hours, guaranteed upgrades with no convoluted upgrade process to follow, happy wives near family and best of all, back home in the good ol' US of A. If that works for you and it's the long term goal, great.

As for the ALT argument, you could argue that regardless of what's happening in the cabin, as long as my salary is paid and my terms and conditions are good, I couldn't care less. Right? Well, that's where EK was 15 years ago and now look at us. Arrogance and complacency has resulted in this current debacle and it's going to be a few years before we recover. It has to, because it's simply unsustainable currently. My point was that if Delta don't up their game, the public will vote with their feet. Isn't that happening to us with Qatar and the unmentionables? Is Delta not also in the fight with 2 big other majors as well as numerous low costs that are offering far better service in the main cabin. When you pay $2400 for a four hour flight, you do expect a little more than coffee. Next time it will be Jet Blue without a doubt.

Tineetim

How perceptive. That's just the point, I was expecting fillet mignon but got ****e. When will you be leaving anyway, or are you too stuck here slaving out a meagre living?

Keepitreal

I agree, although at least we can leave here with the provident fund in our hands and not in the hands of the CEO's golden handshake packages and spent re branding and painting 400 aircraft like Delta. There can be very few pilots in this airline who find the current schedules easy, apart from a few exceptions maybe on the 380. Boeing is undoubtedly harder with hours and combined night turns and ULR but colleagues on the 380 are also suffering effects of constant ULR's with 48 hr layovers and East West variations. This is why it's got to change. And also why pilots are leaving and hardly anybody is applying!

Harry

anson harris

8th Mar 2017, 10:48

I see that divide and conquer continues to be a highly successful strategy in the ME.

harry the cod

8th Mar 2017, 10:55

Pilots have always been a selfish bunch of individuals. If you think it's unique to the ME, then you're being very naive.

And in case you didn't realise, we don't have unions here!

Harry

TICH

9th Mar 2017, 04:34

From the same people that brought you Level 2 pay...latest rumour is that due to recruiting problems, low houred pilots will be hired to the 777, 777 FOs will be transferred to the 380. 380 FOs will be upgraded, and 380 Capts swapped to the 777.
This 777 FO ain't happy.

glofish

10th Mar 2017, 15:15

TICH

And just who will train all these lucky punters???

Kapitanleutnant

10th Mar 2017, 16:33

How is it that... Harry is actually making sense today? Well, it IS a full moon!! :-)

Kap

natops

10th Mar 2017, 16:45

Tich, which low houred pilots? Turboprop candidates pool is pretty much finito.
The big group hired in 2010 is reaching the 7 years this year. Their exodus is beginning as we speak. The 2011 guys are sending out cv's excited to leave as well. There will be a huge vacuum in the left hand seat on both types.
Pretty much every other airline sees this and tries to catch as many as they can by sending roadshows to this area, a lot with the lifestyle option in place.

Emirates is Emirates and sticking their head just a bit deeper in the sand, pretending everything is alright. Not trying to keep the present workforce in place.

Arrogancy is killing this airline...

perthbound

11th Mar 2017, 12:17

BANANASBANANAS

11th Mar 2017, 12:35

There have always been two important milestones in terms of time for EK pilots:

5 years:
This marks the end of the training bond timeline meaning pilots can resign without forking money over to pay off any remaining balance.
Many of our colleagues have now reached that point.

7 years:
100% payout of the provident.

Keep in mind that schools in Dubai have already been given the approval to increase fees (approved in February) by between 3% and 5%.
Transport companies have also been given the OK to increase their fees by similar amounts.

Remember, the best deal you will ever get in Dubai is the one you receive on the day you arrive.
It does not get any better with time or by upgrade to the left seat.

And will school fees be subject to VAT from 2018?

The training bond was only recently extended from three to five years. But 5 years is significant for the Prov Fund too as it is when you get 75% of the company contribution and 100% of your own contribution.

Most people I talk to will wait for the 7 year point if they are already close to it but the 5 year point is not really a deal breaker.

In short, I agree. Emirates crewing problems are about to get a whole lot worse.

TangoUniform

11th Mar 2017, 19:23

And even admitted to, by some 3rd floor dwellers. They know the end of the school year approaches. They are expecting a pretty hefty exodus. But who would know with a hidden seniority list?

flareflyer

12th Mar 2017, 08:53

It would be nice to know how the roadshows around europe are doing.....

A6EchoEchoUniform

12th Mar 2017, 22:11

The individual who I started this thread about us been interviewed and offered a job as a pilot here. Nothing set in stone yet, but it sounds like he intends to accept the offer, and stick around for 5-10 years.

ExDubai

12th Mar 2017, 22:36

TangoUniform

13th Mar 2017, 05:46

Of course he won't last five years if in his mid twenties and single. And will not be because of the rostering. He'll simply wear out.

Alloy

13th Mar 2017, 06:38

The amount of junk emails I'm getting from both QR and EK asking me to apply because I'd shown some interest in the dim and distant passed but had since said I was not interested seems to be just one sign of the carriers finding it harder and harder to recruit.

Each time I visit Dubai friends seem to be more and more demoralised and bitter about it. Last visit included one friend who had just got his 777 command a month earlier but was already fed up by it and just waiting to have the experience (and presumably 7 years) to leave.

ExDubai

13th Mar 2017, 09:13

I'll be surprised if he lasts 5 yrs
Might be. 24 years and single, the shiny jet syndrome and the "Dubai-lifestyle". Should work for a couple of years.

A6EchoEchoUniform

15th Mar 2017, 01:57

Might be. 24 years and single, the shiny jet syndrome and the "Dubai-lifestyle". Should work for a couple of years.

They're saying they want him in Dubai basically immediately, and expect to have him flying no sooner than six and no longer than ten months. Is training that backed up??

Uplink

15th Mar 2017, 02:27

Is training that backed up??

Its not that training is that backed up. I am hearing they are hardly getting any joiners now. The leavers far outweighing the joiners, not that they would ever admit to it. The issue being they are also loosing trainers at a fast rate. TRI and TRE's. Low experience guys I am sure are being used to replace what was once a superb training system. The new trainers are obviously taking time to come on line. It begs the question of who do you train first, pilots or trainers to train the pilots. In the end its not that training is backed up but more importantly not enough trainers to train the already dwindling supply of pilots....

fatbus

15th Mar 2017, 02:38

This could be the titanic of airlines. Unsinkable!!!

A6EchoEchoUniform

15th Mar 2017, 03:36

Just makes me wonder what they're going to do with him once he arrives and does the usual UAE incoming tasks... just have him sit? And with the five year bond, does that start the second he arrives or is it when he actually begins flying; Has that changed from the three year?? I'd be surprised if it wasn't the day when he's first online.

Mr Boombastick

15th Mar 2017, 11:01

Doesn't the bond period start following successful completion of final line check?

Besser

15th Mar 2017, 11:30

Mach.888

15th Mar 2017, 11:54

So, if the nasty rumor is true, and they will force A380 pilots over to the B777. Can someone please confirm that no 5 years bond apply.
So, with no bond, I'll just take the rating and then I'll think about what I'll do.😈
Because there is NO f..ing way I'm going back to the "330" lifestyle.
I've done my fair share of that totally life threatening flying.

White Knight

15th Mar 2017, 13:22

There's no bond if the company sends you to another fleet...

CaptainChipotle

15th Mar 2017, 13:51

The issue being they are also loosing trainers at a fast rate. TRI and TRE's. Low experience guys I am sure are being used to replace what was once a superb training system.

I assume this is a joke. Ek made my previous company's training department look like NASA. Maybe you meant superb "checking" department.

Either way, I agree that all the experienced trainers are pulling the plug and it's going to be green on green.

Yorkshire_Pudding

15th Mar 2017, 15:30

The bond is effective from final sim check and before commencing line training.

Airbuspilot72

17th Mar 2017, 12:32

Never ever come here as a FO. As they say " ITS A CAPTAIN's AIRLINES". Have heard this so many times now .....why the hell you hire FO's then. Why not hire Captains only and let them fly both seats.

Airbuspilot72

17th Mar 2017, 12:36

upset
I've heard for years that they hardly can get anyone to join, but if you paste the list into a spreadsheet you will find that in 2015 around 350 joined. 2016 around 560 joined. and by this end of Feb 50 already joined. Im not sure about the quality/experience but they are still joining in big numbers. On the other hand a shocking number of the pilots I talk to is in the process of preparing to leave.
Every one who joins thinks that whatever we post here is all false and we are disgruntled lot. But before even they finish their training you would find most of them trying to find ways and means to leave EK..

keepitrealok

17th Mar 2017, 13:21

......but they are still joining in big numbers

Of course they are still joining. EK has lowered the minimums for entry. So pilots who were stuck in Turboprop world now thankfully have an entry into widebody jet flying. Why wouldn't they jump at it?

.........and each one of them has already made an exit plan before even joining. Get the required minimum jet time and move elsewhere. :ok: EK is about to become the biggest halfway house for pilots in the world. In and out before they know it. Operating the most diverse network of any carrier, with the most ridiculous/obscene rostering practices around.

That's got to be good for safety. :D

Jetjockey1

17th Mar 2017, 14:38

If he enjoys freedom then dont come. Not as in dubai or the UAE, it has been amazing here. But as an ek prisoner. When i joined it was great, pilots get a appartment in the city which is yours no rules it was great.

However last week "new group security rules"
-you must be in the appartment when a guest is there
-your guest must sign in and out at all times.
-between 1 am and 7 am your guest must have a ek i.d to visit you
-you must get written permission to have a guest come visit from overseas and stay with you (including parents)

Basically all the cabin crew rules have now been put on to pilots too. Kind of like living in Doha.

The people you work with are great. 98% of captains I've flown with are awesome. But im lucky ive already opted out of company housing. But for new joiners that is no longer an option so you will live like a prisoner for ek.

LongLats

18th Mar 2017, 02:43

But for new joiners that is no longer an option so you will live like a prisoner for ek.

No, it is still an option for new joiners. That's what most are doing.

Divertnow

18th Mar 2017, 03:36

No, it is still an option for new joiners. That's what most are doing.

So new joiners can opt out but a mate, who tried a few weeks ago, cannot? What kind of BS is that? As for signing in and signing out... I simply wouldn't. End of! And if that meant I'd be fired unless I complied then I'd resign from emirates and that would be that. What a joke this place has become.

LongLats

18th Mar 2017, 04:26

So new joiners can opt out but a mate, who tried a few weeks ago, cannot? What kind of BS is that? As for signing in and signing out... I simply wouldn't. End of! And if that meant I'd be fired unless I complied then I'd resign from emirates and that would be that. What a joke this place has become.

The opt out was never stopped. Requests to opt out were simply postponed for 6 months for those who were currently in company accomodation but had requested to leave. No one was or is permanently unable to opt out.

felixthecat

18th Mar 2017, 04:48

The opt out was never stopped. Requests to opt out were simply postponed for 6 months for those who were currently in company accomodation but had requested to leave. No one was or is permanently unable to opt out

So you can still opt out and be given the allowance to rent, even if your in the company already? I was under the impression that you couldn't?

BigGeordie

18th Mar 2017, 10:16

You can't. Opt-out has been 'paused' for 6 months after which it will be 'reviewed'. It may come back, it might not.

desertbob

21st Mar 2017, 17:47

Banana is in big trouble! 20% only matches what the new guys are getting!! I'm leaving unless we get serious monster improvements ... early roster and 7 requests no longer cut it! Am I a jellyfish or a 250 hr commercial pilot? Wtf?

Supposedly 20% for new hires was because the price of fish in the market has changed!! :=:=

Fat Busdriver

22nd Mar 2017, 23:03

Guys I have an question, Qatar or Emirates?
Pros and cons.

Thank you!

Calmcavok

23rd Mar 2017, 05:32

Ok, I'll ask: banana??

hunterboy

23rd Mar 2017, 21:21

Make it 60,000 AED with no bond and you may get more applicants.

springbok449

23rd Mar 2017, 21:31

Hunter,
The main issue isn't the money.
Constantly flying 100+ hours/month doing a combination a "low cost" type turnarounds in the middle of the night followed by a minimum rest longhaul flight in either direction and throw in the odd ULR sector, all of this on minimum days off and with no particular rules is the problem.
If you ever get 2 weeks leave, the rest of the month you are flogged and doing 60 plus hours negating any benefit of leave doesn't help either.
None of the above can be fixed by earning 60000aed/month in my view.

felixthecat

24th Mar 2017, 07:22

As Springbok says the cash isn't the problem. Its the crazy rosters and lack of lifestyle and time off with family that is causing the problem.

Leave these days is used as days off, it doesn't amount to a reduction in flying hours it just means the remainder of a full months flying is compressed into the remainder of the month. You are often actually more tired than without leave.

This is something that has to be addressed and urgently.

Shadowsonclouds

24th Mar 2017, 07:58

So what to do about it?

No satire, genuine question.

My humble opinion is actually cash is a fast first step needed. Once we have a more suitable number of pilots for the flying EK does, then finally we will have some structure to work with.

There just isn't enough meat on the bones for anyone at the moment for any kind of plan.......we just move closer and closer to check mate.

desertbob

24th Mar 2017, 10:09

adel

24th Mar 2017, 10:12

So many posts here focus on popping up the pilot numbers as the solution to many of our ek issues.
Not that I disagree to an extent however the question is
when has ek ever been flush with pilots?
Even when the attrition rate was low, we still didn't have enough pilots.
Maybe my view is too simplistic....
The core problem is it's inate attitude towards the pilot fraternity.
The old broken record that by hiring more pilots will solve our rostering/ life style issues is flawed.
Management gods won't allow us to be rostered 70 odd hrs because it would then be perceived as being unproductive.
They want more pilots to allow them to expand and crew aircraft that have been ordered many years ago.
There is always a lag.
Their cost neutral attitude will always delay any forsight or the will to improve our life style NOW!
They want more pilots to maintain 90 hrs plus rosters not alleviate our already beaten bodies.
If they really wanted to improve our time at ek,
they may not be able to implement a better roster system in the short term but they could easily wipe out all internal restriction immediately.

At least give us a chance to improve our rosters without being impeded by rules that only aleniate us and frustrate us further,
Remove all day off restrictions, I'm not talking about only when bidding but overall.... let me swap and extend my days off....
It's a quick remedy to ease the lack of successful leave being allocated.
Anyway my 2 fills

donpizmeov

24th Mar 2017, 12:34

Some years ago when shaking trees no longer produced the pilot numbers needed, the May pay rise was announced in Dec. The offer of more money back then, even if it was in the future, worked. After that, money as an incentive has been taboo. They lowered requirements to 2000hrs on a Barby jet. When this had claimed all its victims they offered turboprop Cpls a go. Then offered new joiners more money than those already trapped ....you see where I am going here?
Any new incentives will be aimed at getting new pilots through the door, rather than keeping the ones they already have. It wouldn't seem like a PHD study is needed to see why this is wrong, but these are the same guys that make up rostering rules, and leave rules, and when to send warning letter rules.
Now some cynics may think these people know fecking nothing, but believe me, they know **** all.
To have a modern fleet of widebodied aircraft, that fly all over the world, and still offer relatively quick commands, and still not be able to hire pilots (and this includes those that are willing to buy jobs elsewhere!) takes some doing. TICH can complain all he likes about what is written, but he and all those other office dwellers are fully responsible for the mess they have created. Next time they complain, perhaps we should remind them that if they don't like it they can leave.

The Foss

24th Mar 2017, 15:34

Banana and Potato are 2 airlines, I'll leave it for you to ask your cabin crew!

Yes only new guys get paid more, 15% more!

Cash is the only answer to ballooning cost of living Dubai inflation, rotten lifestyle with 6-7 days off, crazy hours up to 127hrs in a month, insane punitive culture from chief pilot sick calls to using leave in lieu of health benefits to clinic appointments fines and now super low levels of experience!!! Commercial license with only turboprop history?! Whaaat!!

127 in a month!? How many are guys doing per year now? Is there any upper limit?

Went to the roadshow out of curiosity this week but won't be applying. Evidence here tends to contradict their claim that they only do 85hrs p/m to a max of 900 per year!

sluggums

24th Mar 2017, 16:47

Utter rubbish from the recruiters then. There's factoring to take into account. This can drive the hours well over 100+...

The Foss

24th Mar 2017, 18:58

Utter rubbish from the recruiters then. There's factoring to take into account. This can drive the hours well over 100+...

They do a pretty good job at selling the dream. Have kept an eye on these forums for the last year or so to get a more realistic view of the conditions over there. Out of interest what kind of annual hours are guys hitting with and without the bunk time?

Avid Aviator

24th Mar 2017, 19:19

What Don said. 100% spot on.
I'll use that line on TICH next time he's telling us its our fault pilots won't come here.

Rotating Bacon

24th Mar 2017, 19:42

and why are you guys still there?

Ekisnotthebest

25th Mar 2017, 02:39

Joined over 2 years ago now. Done 1638 hours on the 777 with no Sick Leave. Thats 819 anually. 85-90 per month is correct, have done 100+ maybe twice. 777 RH

@The Foss: You really take these guys seriously on Pprune? They are bitter, hateful, and will never be happy. Old skippers who still have the military stick in their arse (yes some of them introduce themselves as Colonel/Seargent, Captain bladibla.

Problem in EK for me: Colleagues who act like the ones on these forums

AlanPardew

25th Mar 2017, 04:01

I can't believe there's people suggesting cash won't help - we are about 50% behind inflation since I joined. They need to give us a serious pay increase to help retain pilots and attract more - that is what will help the rosters.

No wonder the likes of AAR, JA and HD regurgitate nonsense like 'you don't want a pay rise' to us.

Alan

Joker11

25th Mar 2017, 04:31

and why are you guys still there?

I asked myself the same question every single day.

Joker11

25th Mar 2017, 04:32

To regards to rosters my colleague said "Its not that they can't get it right, its that they don't want to."

777-200LR

25th Mar 2017, 05:43

Everyone can be bought, the only variable is the price, and not necessarily money. An increase in the pay will stop the mercenaries from leaving. That will in turn stop a few of their friends from leaving and so on. If they offered you a 4 weeks on/2 weeks off lifestyle, and you stayed, you have just been bought

BigGeordie

25th Mar 2017, 06:08

@ The Foss, we are doing 900 hours a year without bunk time. Some people are well over 1,000 hours block time, over multiple time zones. The rosters are literally killing people.

In answer to the other posters, I stay because I'm on the big bus and the lifestyle is slightly less terrible. If I was on the 777 I would have gone to a European low cost a couple of years ago. I did my time on the 330 and know what the rosters can be like. Also, I've been here over 14 years and am 50+. For my personal circumstances it is worth sticking it out for the few years I have left and then retiring completely. Everybody has different reasons for staying, or (increasingly) going.

felixthecat

25th Mar 2017, 06:10

Alan, I agree cash could be better and is falling behind rapidly, but its not the main reason people are leaving. More cash and a few will stay, better lifestyle with family time off and regular sleep patterns and many will stay.

And 777200LR, of course we can be bought one way or another....thats how we came here in the first place.

ruserious

25th Mar 2017, 08:50

Out of interest what kind of annual hours are guys hitting with and without the bunk time?
For me, 950 + block hours, which of course does not count any ground duties, simulator etc. My favourite is when you have 2 weeks leave and they still try to get 72 hours out of you. The overtime threshold is 82 hours and they do not pro-rata it for leave, they love getting you to work extra for free. Makes all the little accountants and bouncy castle budget geniuses rub their hands with glee that does. But the good news is, safety is not compromised at all ;)

harry the cod

25th Mar 2017, 08:50

Don

I'm normally in agreement with most of your posts but in fairness to HD, he's inherited a shambolic department left over from Mr Weasal's 10 years in power. I say 'in power' but the truth is nothing more than a powerful title he held as a filter to keep the EVP happy and the troops under control. A nice boost for an already generous BA pension while he slowly stuffed his fellow pilots. If his reputation in BA wasn't good, it certainly wasn't going to improve in a non unionised ME outfit, was it?

I'm in no way defending the current incumbent but there are signs of improvements, slowly I accept. But then again, you've been here long enough to how how the politics work here and change, for the workforce at least, is hardly sprightly. Charging into AAR office, all guns blazing demanding change to keep pilots from leaving isn't going to work. We all know that. Loss of face culturally, both within this organisation and at a National level should never be underestimated. HD is having to deal with the momentum of previous mis management and the fallout that created.

He and JA have a difficult job but I'd rather them at the helm than a few others I could think of. Just my personal thoughts anyway.

Harry

BigGeordie

25th Mar 2017, 09:39

The rate of change is glacial, the rate of people leaving is accelerating. The problem is only going to get worse in the short to medium term.

777-200LR

25th Mar 2017, 10:09

And 777200LR, of course we can be bought one way or another....thats how we came here in the first place.

Agreed. I was targetting those that have said in the past that money specifically won't buy them and that a payrise wouldn't change much. It will go a long way in retaining pilots and as many have mentioned; has happened in the past (2007-2008) albeit in very different circumstances to now. No one who has retired from the European legacy carriers will be interested in coming here for the 'enhanced package'. They're sitting on their pensions and want to have a 'lifestyle' roster for the last 5 years of their careers, and thats where the Chinese are cashing in on experienced pilots.

BANANASBANANAS

25th Mar 2017, 10:45

A substantial pay rise would keep me here. If others think the same, that would reduce attrition, attract experienced new jouners and improve quality of life. There is no way, imho, to meaningfully address the qol issues here without a substantial pay rise.

Alternatively, EK can continue to lose numbers, lose experience and park aircraft.

donpizmeov

25th Mar 2017, 11:48

A substantial payrise would work. And would be the first step of getting of getting new pilots to join, which would help rosters, which would get more to stay etc etc. It is an obvious answer. However those that are responsible for the decision are trying to find a cheaper way out. Their answer will not work, and the mess will only continue to get messier.

Harold,

TICH was the big cheese of safety before his present job. Did you see any improvement while he sat in that office? During his current tenure of seat warming, the rate of pilots leaving has increased. When was the last time he turned up to a training meeting? He is noneffective. Yes he was handed a poisonous chalice, but he accepted that job when others did not. He may be a lovely fella, but if you need him to act according to his present role you will be left disappointed. Blaming pilots for the lack of new candidates is a good indication of his situation awareness.

harry the cod

25th Mar 2017, 19:30

Don

We may have to disagree on a few points.

Firstly, I'm not sure what 'improvements' you envisaged during his tenure within FS but he was certainly more proactive and visible than the previous incumbent, TJ.

Secondly, as for others not accepting the role as DVSP, it was not offered to anyone else. He was personally asked to apply. His acceptance letter from STC was promptly dispatched the very next morning before he could 'decide'. HD is somewhat of a political animal for sure and I don't doubt for one minute that he'll put his own lucrative career and families future on the line for us. However, he does have the support from JA and MM and between them, they may have some influence on AAR. May! I agree though that he's been slow to effect change and also somewhat naive towards the current discontent amongst pilots and their reasons for leaving.

Finally, management at training meetings is now done by training managers. If you want to discuss issues other than training, go to the fleet forums. That's what they've been designed for. Personally, I don't bother. Did anything useful ever come out of those wash ups anyway?

As for your first paragraph, I agree entirely.

Harry

Emma Royds

25th Mar 2017, 23:03

Around 15 years ago, pilots in Aer Lingus pilots supported industrial action over the suspension of a handful of pilots that refused to accept a reduction in rest periods that had been implemented by the company but not ratified by the union and were rejected by nearly all of the pilot work force after a ballot. The Chief Pilot and Flight Ops Manager at the time was none other than HD.

Putting the intricacies of the reason for the industrial action to one side, it takes some doing when you manage to drive your pilots to the point where their level of dissatisfaction and disillusionment turns them to the point where they consider industrial action.

glofish

26th Mar 2017, 03:36

I agree though that he's been slow to effect change and also somewhat naive towards the current discontent amongst pilots and their reasons for leaving.

Such a (dis)qualification would lead to a 2 in your ppc, with delay of your upgrade. In EK management it leads to keeping the position and getting a bonus when the subordinates only get more hours and less leave.

And you are still defending him?
There were situations in history where upper echelons could not change much as well, but still they were charged of collaboration.
You accept any responsibility and renumeration or advantages for it, you have to accept accountability, irrespective of any inhibiting sc*mbags above you.

..... or renounce the position and keep your decency.

clear to land

26th Mar 2017, 06:48

A MEANINGFUL pay rise (at least 20% plus increment) WILL make a difference to a a large enough percentage that attrition will reduce to primarily retirees and US mainline bound crew. They must reward those who stay-stick and bigger stick no longer crews aircraft. As also stated it will attract more applicants with obvious flow on benefits. No it won't balance immediate QOL issues but it will reverse the tide-which will improve QOL in the mid term. Most do not want to go to China, KAL etc but see no other viable option to maintain longevity/family. Allowing the experience drain to continue has to be hugely detrimental to continued safe operations.

B772

26th Mar 2017, 08:20

I was surprised to learn James Nixon resigned off the big bus.

falconeasydriver

26th Mar 2017, 09:08

There's part of me that feels pity for some of you that don't have options for bailing out, the rest of you I'm afraid will have to accept that it doesn't and never will matter what you say or think. Your opinions based on every common sense metric are correct, but only in your reality, the alternative reality that exists in the rarified atmosphere on the higher floors in Al Gahoud is different to yours.
Funnily enough my current boss described the mentality rather well. On discussions with him (CEO of a multinational) about what's going on in aviation and EK in general, he viewed it as nothing more than a transactional relationship with no more thought given to individuals welfare than for example what colour tie to wear to the office etc. In simple terms you are more expensive labourers than most, but you are still labourers.
The layers between yourselves and the decision makers insulate the egos higher up and provide a convenient scapegoat for nationals in positions that they are niether qualified for or capable of fulfilling.
TICH is just another sociopath in a long line, all of whom will discard you faster than their navel lint if it meant more money in their back pocket.

sluggums

26th Mar 2017, 09:48

Very good points in the above posts. All very correct IMHO. The oxygen thieves in the bouncy castle couldn't give two cr*ps about the shop floor workers.

donpizmeov

26th Mar 2017, 11:12

And yet people still work on days off. Egits

Ekisnotthebest

29th Mar 2017, 05:34

Hello all,

Just an honest story regarding my experience in EK. I have been here now a good 2 years and before you check my profile, I made this account as my previous account information is lost. You can see this as a lie or the truth but Im not here to discuss that.

This is not a post to recruit people. Im not from management which I expect loads of you will say after I finish. Im not judging anyone here on this forum or in EK. Everyone has their own reasons to be happy/pissed/miserable or accepting of what is happening at this stage.

Anyway here goes.

I'm a 28 year old FO on the 777. Live with my wife in company accommodation in a nice area close to many facilities and places to visit. I have worked for a very well known carrier in Europe which I enjoyed working for but due to the low salary wasnt an option anymore.

I have joined EK purely on the fact that I want to make money to pay off my loan. My goal is to stay 7-10 years. Im not here to build a career. In the last year I managed to pay off 10% of my loan ( 200k ) which is more than I did in the 6 years in my previous company.

Reason for this post is that I've been talking to loads of friends/ex-colleagues and even have seen it here on this forum. People base their decision to come to EK/EY/QR by reading this forum and that is a mistake. You are basing your decision on information which is brought to you by people who are not in your shoes. Neither are you in theirs. You have to look at your goals.

I have spoken to guys who said, Yeah I'm not gonna join... have you seen pprune? I then show them my roster from the last 6 months and my payslips and they are regretting not joining. Purely on the fact they read information here by people who are fed up and done with EK. Which is completely understandable if you have been here for a long time and seen it deteriorate to the state it is now. But that state is better than some companies.

I for example have been asked many many times who on earth I joined this "****" company. When I tell them my story and experiences/reasons they agree and they even think it was wise for me to come. These are the same guys who 30min before I told them my reasons told me that I was (and I quote) 'a ******* idiot'.

Positive people or people who accept what is going on wont be on this forum. They won't react to me or any other post whatsoever. Positive information spreading is deemed arrogant and in our current society not interesting. All media sorts ( news, radio, social etc. ) rather tell negative things because it attracts more people. Good example is teambuilding for new colleagues in offices. If any of you guys did this, you'll know what I talk about. During teambuilding there is always a leader who acts horribly just so the guys have something in common to complain about. And my god, complaining is lovely. Just **** this **** that and get angry with everything. It's what we love as humans, especially in this company.

I have met a lot of nice guys here in EK, even while the morale is very low. Most FOs and CPTs are very nice and a joy to talk to or spend your time with enroute.

Anyway please feel free to take this information as you want it. I'll probably be attacked by the regulars here that I'm management, Costa dweller, aiming for my own floor on US and what else you guys can think off.
This is my story and the truth.

I enjoy EK. I don't regret my choice and I hope I fly with any of you to enjoy your company.

salamalecom

15th Apr 2017, 20:18

Just Leave guys, if you're not happy you have to leave, there are many other companies to work for, keep complaining here won't change your life and make things better.

Divertnow

16th Apr 2017, 18:04

Just Leave guys, if you're not happy you have to leave, there are many other companies to work for, keep complaining here won't change your life and make things better.
The company can't please everyone and whilst there are the perennial complainers the numbers don't lie. People are leaving and they're not being replaced as quickly. The 'if you don't like it then leave' approach hasn't done anyone any favours.

fliion

16th Apr 2017, 19:02

Just Leave guys, if you're not happy you have to leave, there are many other companies to work for, keep complaining here won't change your life and make things better.

Ladies & Gents

I'm in disagreement when it comes to the theory that complaining on here won't get you anywhere.

I have to believe in some small way that the mood expressed in various posts has worked it's way into the market perception while also forcing the Co's hand.

It was admitted as such by TICH in most recent Fleet Forum - while also being a go to place for journo's from respected sources (BBC) and some suspect ones (yes you RTL)

Had we not been on here as a pseudo central sorting office of the feelings amongst the troops - I'm not sure we would have achieved some of the small victories that have come our way in recent years.

Ground pay, sim pay, threshold reduced to 88 from 92, Biz firm on OAL deadheading, step continued upwards for the long term guys, roster publications earlier, South Asian TAs to layovers, monthly forums due complaints on here and elsewhere of abysmal comms, weekly walk-ins, ORD to 48, etc

Granted these are small and incremental BUT had we typed praise and rose tinted stories on here over the years - as the 'don't like it leave' starry eyed fresh ones would advocate- then the bean counters above would not be forced to alter the supply / demand curve that has been created by the negative (and accurate) view of EK that is now established in the market.

PPrune is not the only reason obviously- Fleet Forum feedback, school house banter, flight deck exchanges, ASRs, Volvo gossip, other reports, etc - but it remains a go to Forum when something new develops and quickly reflects the mood.

The falsehoods on here, in general, usually get called out by the more reasonable posters.

As long as we're here - I would encourage those thoughtful posters to continue taking the Co to task for their lack of competitiveness in the market - lets face it we don't have a union but we do have social media - and as the week has shown dramatically- in the airline business it can be most effective.

Helmut on, digging my trench, prepared for incoming.

Panther 88

16th Apr 2017, 21:01

Keep your head up. Very good post and accurate. Don't like it leave? When the opportunity arises, we leave. When kids finish the school year, we leave. When the spouse says "enough", we leave. When our retirement is sufficient, we leave. Our one says that they'll drive a truck instead of taking this nonsense, we leave. So mister salamalecom with your two posts, if you don't like it....leave. We do. Perhaps driving around the BC parking garage on a daily basis is making you dizzy.

sluggums

17th Apr 2017, 03:27

It's an improvement for the EK managers bonuses, if that's what you mean...

5star

17th Apr 2017, 05:00

Another improvement in our race to the bottom...
Seems someone at the BC spent some of his budget on removing the sneak peek option we had for rosters. Surely money well spent...
Pretty sure mr SlalalaaaaMalecum is one of the many spending his free days browsing Costa on the second floor....

Divertnow

17th Apr 2017, 05:50

Helmut on, digging my trench, prepared for incoming.

Standard prune I guess. I agree completely with you. Whilst I consider these changes small, they are a step in the right direction. Still a long way off with the rosters and leave though and I can't see a light at the end of the tunnel with this one.

lospilotos

17th Apr 2017, 06:31

Standard prune I guess. I agree completely with you. Whilst I consider these changes small, they are a step in the right direction. Still a long way off with the rosters and leave though and I can't see a light at the end of the tunnel with this one.

What is needed is a big chunk of cash on the table. And I mean a substantial increase to the basic pay which has been slipping behind inflation for many years. Breadcrumbs falling off the table in shape of ground pay doesn't make a huge difference and most importantly, it's not adding to the provident fund. TICH says in the forums that the money is not the right motivation. I say he's wrong.

sluggums

17th Apr 2017, 06:37

lospilotos

17th Apr 2017, 08:35

While I agree that money isn't top of the list, what it will do is create some buy in from the pilot community and more people will presumably join, the hours drop etc. etc. However the bouncy castle inhabitants don't want this solution, because it'll affect their bonuses. Until we get rid of this system of rewarding them, nothing will change.

Well for me it's pretty simple, FO plus wife and two kids. Not saving any money anymore. I might as well not be saving money in my home country. More money and I'll stay, which will help with rosters and lifestyle for all of us.

ThunderLizard

17th Apr 2017, 08:48

Pilot attrition comes up a lot here. Namely, if the company is doing roadshows all over the world and going to great effort to recruit pilots, why do they not improve conditions to reduce attrition?

It occurs to me maybe management actually does want (some) pilot attrition.

I fly with basically 3 types:

1. Guys who are happy, not unhappy, or at least the job serves their purpose and career goals.
2. Guys who are unhappy but their spirit is broken and will just take whatever abuse comes their way.
3. Guys who are unhappy and rage against the machine, poisoning minds in the opinion of management.

The first 2 groups are stable, but I think management would be happy to have guys from the last group leave the company regardless of their level of experience. The trouble is the pointless irritations that could be easily remedied (many of them cost neutral) hit everyone, not just the guys the company views as malcontents. A shame really because it occurs to me that a lot of the guys in the third group actually don’t want to leave and are just voicing their dissatisfaction in an attempt to improve things and maybe move back into the first group, where they must have started out initially.