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ORAC
21st Jan 2017, 18:11
Bring back the draft. No, really. ? POLITICO (http://www.politico.eu/article/bring-back-the-draft-conscription-sweden-scandinavia/)

STOCKHOLM — If Sweden reinstitutes the draft, as it is expected to do within a couple of months, many will report the move as a return to a previous era. For centuries, young men in Europe were conscripted for military service to protect countries from invasion. Then came the 1990s and the presumed end of history. With territorial wars considered a thing of the past, large European powers scrapped compulsory military service in favor of smaller professional armed forces. The return to conscription is both a sign of more uncertain times and the result of difficulties Sweden has had in filling its military roster with only volunteer forces. But it would be a mistake to write off the effort as a rollback of progress. Sweden’s initiative will show the draft in its modern incarnation: targeted, highly selective, and applied to both men and women.

When Sweden suspended the draft seven years ago, it joined a growing club: Countries including France, Italy, Belgium and the Netherlands had taken the same step in the nineties, and Germany did so in 2011. Its reinstatement reflects a consensus in the country that the experiment has failed. “......

The highly selective draft represents a sea change. No longer do Swedes, Norwegians and Lithuanians with no mental or physical aptitude for the military have to endure a year of instructions and exercises they detest. Indeed, the modern military employs sophisticated equipment that should not be entrusted to youngsters who’d much rather be somewhere else. “When I did my military service everybody had to serve, and if you were less able you worked in support functions like postman,” recalled Eksell. “The selective draft will help us move from military service as something you’re forced to do to something you’re selected to do.” Or as Kjersti Klćboe, the head of the Norwegian defense ministry’s personnel department, told me: “Producing soldiers is no longer about filling quotas and units. Instead we pay more attention to the quality and skills — the added value — of every soldier.” The 21st-century draft is for top achievers.....

But the modern, super-selective draft is different. Though armed forces are having to refocus on territorial defense, they don’t need soldiers for trenches. As Šapkinaitė pointed out, they need highly skilled young men and women who can be trusted with expensive high-tech equipment. And the best conscripts are given positions of responsibility a 19-year-old could only dream of in civilian life.

Having performed military service is no longer a minus (“too stupid to get out of it”) or a neutral point on one’s CV — it’s the mark of a young man or woman of particular potential. A survey among Norway’s current class of conscripts shows 90 percent of women and 83 percent of the men are pleased with their experience. The public, too, seems to be on board. A 2016 survey found 73 percent of Norwegians support the gender-neutral draft, up from 63 percent in 2014. In a September 2016 poll, 62 percent of Swedes supported the new, gender-neutral draft. And an April 2016 poll in Lithuania showed 52 percent of the country supports the return of conscription........

parabellum
21st Jan 2017, 23:37
Might help Sweden solve its problems with recently arrived young males from the Middle East too!

KayPam
21st Jan 2017, 23:47
What do you think would happen to civil aviation in case of war ?
Would the state/army commandeer both the airplanes and their pilots (all of them) in order to support the military effort ??

Out Of Trim
22nd Jan 2017, 05:34
Probably not too far off for the UK either; given our low number of forces personnel in the event of a crisis !

skippedonce
22nd Jan 2017, 07:15
The Scandinavians seem to view conscription as a much more 'national character-building' exercise than other Europeans. Finland has continued conscription without a break, while in the Baltics Estonia has done the same. In response to concerns over Russia, Lithuania reintroduced conscription last year.

Whenurhappy
22nd Jan 2017, 07:23
No chance it would ever be introduced in the United Kingdom as there is no (no) requirement, but other European countries, such as Belgium, are considering it because of two issues: the on-going internal security requirement and, secondly, the ageing of their forces (average age of a Belgian SP is 46!).

BEagle
22nd Jan 2017, 07:38
Given that there would be no instructors available, nowhere to train conscripts, little for them to do that would be worth the cost and effort - and the fact that the UK's Armed Forces are already patched up with reservists of one form or other, the chances of conscription ever being reintroduced in the UK are less than zero.

National Service was being would down from 1957 and the last conscripts were called up in 1960.

Think about how much bigger the UK's Armed Forces were then - and how many more aerodromes, barracks and ships we had, compared to today's pitiful state.

Heathrow Harry
22nd Jan 2017, 09:03
Conscription is only useful if you need masses of the PBI - think WW1

By 1960 the armed services (almost all Army) reckoned it was a pointless exercise - it took longer to train people than the time they were in service and you tied up all your experienced men as trainers

Be even worse now

Pontius Navigator
22nd Jan 2017, 09:07
As there is training system for UK reserves it would not be impossible to have some conscription. Finding useful employment on the other hand would be more problematic.

Could some of the Swedish model be applied? Say a limited age range, say a stringent assessment regime, say a longer period of service? The pool could be limited to suitable unemployed people. In terms of work they might be employed in non-combatant roles currently filled by contractors.

With a tightening in immigration we are going to be short of waiters etc in the service industry - use conscription, get them trained, and when they demon, Bob's yr uncle :)

Pontius Navigator
22nd Jan 2017, 09:11
National Service was being would down from 1957 and the last conscripts were called up in 1960.

True, we benefited at 1ANS. We were in a remote block and had our own batman. Morning tea, shoes polished, bed made, room cleaned. He spent the days on his own, no one bothered him as he saw his time out. When it came our turn to move into the main mess we all opted to stay in the block.

Evalu8ter
22nd Jan 2017, 09:20
Kaypam,
I think that you can safely assume in Transition To War, HM Govt would invoke a War Powers act and the required aircraft, airfields, vehicles, ships and ports would be requisitioned. Crews would be part of the deal, and, I imagine, quite a few will have Reserve liabilities in any case.

gr4techie
22nd Jan 2017, 09:47
Probably not too far off for the UK either; given our low number of forces personnel in the event of a crisis !

Sounds like a way of getting manpower on the cheap.
If they made a career in the Forces attractive enough to retain manpower, through pay and conditions that are competitive with civvy street careers. You wouldn't need conscription.

Tankertrashnav
22nd Jan 2017, 10:10
But the modern, super-selective draft is different. Though armed forces are having to refocus on territorial defense, they don’t need soldiers for trenches. As Šapkinaitė pointed out, they need highly skilled young men and women who can be trusted with expensive high-tech equipment.

I don't agree that in "modern warfare" (whatever that is) the major requirement is for highly skilled young people able to operate sophisticated equipment.

Certainly there is a need for people like this, but when you look at wars going on around the world (and there are plenty to look at), they are still ultimately being fought on the ground by young men engaged in the age old business of killing each other, usually with a rifle, and sometimes even in hand to hand fighting.

Anyone who thinks that warfare is just going to be operating keyboards from now on is just deluding themselves

Chugalug2
22nd Jan 2017, 11:46
KayPam:-
What do you think would happen to civil aviation in case of war ?
Would the state/army commandeer both the airplanes and their pilots (all of them) in order to support the military effort ??

I remember when the Cold War seemed to suddenly go to warm, before dying out completely under Thatcher and Reagan, that this was discussed in the Civil Airlines. Some of my fellow Dan-Air pilots seemed quite relaxed about the proposition that our aircraft would be requisitioned to move troops quickly to various European destinations in the event of warm becoming even warmer. When told that they would be similarly requisitioned, some of them suddenly took umbrage. Quite who else they thought would be piloting our aircraft had presumably been rather overlooked!

Of course, all that was well before NATO became compromised by EU policy and the threat of an EU Army...

Pontius Navigator
22nd Jan 2017, 11:56
Chug, indeed, we used to use a lot of civair when Ascot was maxed. BUA and Britannia to name two.

Rwy in Sight
22nd Jan 2017, 17:16
little for them to do ,

I know one NATO army (in a country confronted by another NATO country recently in the news due to some political events) that can lead the way on teaching how to keep thousands of young recruits occupied just be cleaning, painting and providing hospitality service to officers. It is hard to describe how innovative are the officers of that Air Force and Army to create jobs just not to let recruit relax.

Fareastdriver
22nd Jan 2017, 17:49
The problem with volunteering for the Armed Forces these days is that if you go to war you will have a litigation lawyer looking over your shoulder.

Herod
22nd Jan 2017, 17:56
Perhaps the time has come to re-create "Dad's Army", although I prefer the term "Citizen's Militia". I believe that Switzerland has such a thing, and every able-bodied man has a weapon at home, ready to defend the country. A couple of million men, even used as cannon-fodder, would redress the balance a little. "Go on, gizza gun"

Expatrick
22nd Jan 2017, 18:10
Perhaps the time has come to re-create "Dad's Army", although I prefer the term "Citizen's Militia". I believe that Switzerland has such a thing, and every able-bodied man has a weapon at home, ready to defend the country. A couple of million men, even used as cannon-fodder, would redress the balance a little. "Go on, gizza gun"

Ah the NRA solution!

JAVELINBOY
22nd Jan 2017, 18:34
Herod, just couldn't imagine the youth of today being given a gun to keep at home, the crime rate would go off the scale.

MPN11
22nd Jan 2017, 18:37
Do we still need Bevin Boys for those who don't make the grade?

Bigbux
22nd Jan 2017, 18:56
Not quite sure I understand the model being proposed. It sounds to be one that is selective, and only passable by those who are willing and able. It's not mass-conscription in the conventional sense.

Surely we already have something similar in the UK with the Reserves; who also take people in their 50s, particularly if you have some useful military experience.

Sweden has a population of only 9.5m; and its armed forces consist of approx 20k soldiers; 20k guards and 10 k reservists (ages 16 -70). I'm not surprised that they want to inculcate more military skills in their population with Putin on the prowl.

Swedish towns told to 'make preparations regarding the threat of war and conflict' with Russia (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12/15/swedish-towns-told-make-preparations-regarding-threat-war-conflict/)

Herod
22nd Jan 2017, 20:23
I wasn't thinking about keeping them at home. After training they could be held in a secure facility. The nearest that comes to mind for me would be Colchester Garrison. Perhaps I should have said "Grandad's Army" as I think there would be more response from the mature elements of the population. Given a chance, I'd be there like a shot. Yes, I know, seventy, but I can be a Walt, can't I?

Pontius Navigator
22nd Jan 2017, 21:11
Going back in history, Do others remember as officer cadets having their own SMLE padlocked to their bed in their accommodation? The bolts were kept in the armoury but the rifles in unguarded seco huts bare yards from an unguarded gate to the station?

Or at school? We had an armoury with about 250 SMLE from WW1 and later WW2 and also some new ones. We also had a couple of dozen Bren. In the attic the ammunition was stored above a dormitory - went in once - 25,000 rounds of .303 ball were stored there in ammo boxes.

NutLoose
22nd Jan 2017, 23:19
It's a shame we can't nominate people for it :E


Trouble is I wouldn't want to foist some of the scroat's I know on them.

ImageGear
23rd Jan 2017, 03:06
Conscription implies compulsory service. Nothing voluntary about it. If your name comes out of the hat - you're in, short of having a serious certifiable disability. (or a near relative with connections)

As for "Scroats", the services have a great record of re-engineering them into better members of society. Bring it on I say, and keep the liberal lefties in the dark.

When "Our Reggy" next door went home AWOL during Suez, the MP's arrived on a motorbike and sidecar combo. His mother said, "He's under the kitchen table - you can have him - he been better since he's been in the Army" :ok:

Imagegear

ORAC
23rd Jan 2017, 07:06
I'd make it an option for university funding both pre and post attendance, in the same way the US pay for college under the GI Bill - just expand the current bursary schemes into a much wider range of skills and to a wider range of ranks to cover 2/3 years as a conscript and have your student debt forgiven.

https://www.raf.mod.uk/recruitment/media/1955/20150826-raf_university_sponsorship-u.pdf

Wander00
23rd Jan 2017, 09:22
PN -we must have trained at the same place and attended similar schools. Did you have Primary glider as well|?

Arclite01
23rd Jan 2017, 10:44
Actually in the 80's the Home Service Force (HSF) existed in UK as part of the TA.

Mostly old soldiers or Ex-Cadet forces. Had a reduced training liability and a reduced call out liability (UK only I seem to recall), lower pay rate and reduced training bounty. Their role was to act as Guard forces for home based installations to release regular troops, reservists and TA for wider use. No heavy weapons - just small arms.

Very successful with most TA Infantry Battalions having 1 Company as part of their ORBAT (approx. 120 men/women split as 5 platoons).

of course it was scrapped as a cost savings measure when the TA reorganized in the early 90's. Could easily be re-instated and quite cheaply IMHO.

More info here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Home_Service_Force

Mine being E Coy 6/7 Queen's (V)

Arc

Whenurhappy
23rd Jan 2017, 11:39
,

I know one NATO army (in a country confronted by another NATO country recently in the news due to some political events) that can lead the way on teaching how to keep thousands of young recruits occupied just be cleaning, painting and providing hospitality service to officers. It is hard to describe how innovative are the officers of that Air Force and Army to create jobs just not to let recruit relax.
I know the forces that you are thinking of and even though national service is at the heart of every stout Turk, from my experience there a while back neither the Air Force nor the Navy allowed conscripts (who serve for 12 months) to do anything remotely technical. Most end up sweeping hangar floors, guarding, being abused, being exploited in local businesses...I could go on.

Meanwhile the Turkish Army consists of 75% conscripts, yet they (now) do very little fighting. There are no conscripts deployed in northern Syria as part of OP Euphrates Shield, meaning that regular training cadres have been combed for regular personnel to serve on the front line. Apparently.

Tankertrashnav
23rd Jan 2017, 15:43
Or at school? We had an armoury with about 250 SMLE from WW1 and later WW2 and also some new ones. We also had a couple of dozen Bren. In the attic the ammunition was stored above a dormitory - went in once - 25,000 rounds of .303 ball were stored there in ammo boxes.

So was that you up on the roof in the final scene of If P-N ? ;)

Pontius Navigator
23rd Jan 2017, 15:49
PN -we must have trained at the same place and attended similar schools. Did you have Primary glider as well|?
And a 25 pounder. The glider petrified me which is probably why I pushed for nav.

PS, range firing was probably what started my hearing loss. While the .22 range was a standard brick and sand affair the full bore range was in a quarry. Good for absorbing bullets but without ear protection bl**dy loud.

Pontius Navigator
23rd Jan 2017, 15:53
Whenurhappy, I guess that could have been similar to the Iranian system. We watched the night guard being deployed around the airfield. Long line of troops being marched along the surrounding berm. Every 20 yards of so a man would take post. Yu need a lot of manpower to guard a 7 mile perimeter. I would hazard a guess that it wasn't 2 hours on and 4 off either.

sidewayspeak
23rd Jan 2017, 18:43
Government would have to conscript men and women in equal numbers now.

Infantry 50% female.... that would be amusing.

Herod
23rd Jan 2017, 19:22
Infantry 50% female.... that would be amusing.

With some of the women I know, not amusing; terrifying.

piperpa46
23rd Jan 2017, 19:35
We still have conscription in Denmark and all able bodied men must turn up after their 18th birthday. Not a lot of people has been called up involuntarily though, most of the needed positions are filled by volunteers. Only men are called up, but both women and men can volunteer.

Heathrow Harry
24th Jan 2017, 07:16
Herod is right - women are a lot tougher than men............ no mercy

Wander00
24th Jan 2017, 09:10
We also had a naval gun in the playground, sorry "quad", it was a grammar school after all) and the test for the Naval Section was to see how many "rounds" could be loosed off at a bus as it went down the Kenton Road

Whenurhappy
24th Jan 2017, 10:00
Whenurhappy, I guess that could have been similar to the Iranian system. We watched the night guard being deployed around the airfield. Long line of troops being marched along the surrounding berm. Every 20 yards of so a man would take post. Yu need a lot of manpower to guard a 7 mile perimeter. I would hazard a guess that it wasn't 2 hours on and 4 off either.
P-N.

I escorted a VVSO several years ago to the Gallipoli Commemorations in Turkey. Every 30 yardsalong the roads on the peninsular, there were soldiers and Gendarmerie outwards-facing looking for baddies. We even had one doing a bit of Urban Surfing on the roof of our VIP transport (Thank Heavens there are no low bridges). At one of the venues, there was a wall of soldiers - some slinging .5" Barrett rifles, surrounding the VIP group, with bodyguards carrying portable bulletproof panels. Which was a bit silly, as the Gallipoli peninsular is largely unchanged since 1915, and is very remote - with only one road into/out of it, plus two ferries. In order words, easy to police.

But I s'pose if you have conscripts, use them...

ORAC
24th Jan 2017, 10:31
CENTO TACEVAL at Diyarbakir in mid-1970s, RAF S/L mentions casually to Turkish DISTAFF that he had found a guard asleep and woken him up. Turks identify guard, give him a field court martial, put him against the wall and shoot him. S/L sent home in shock at result of his offhand remark.

Widespread rumour was that base commander had an allowance of 5 conscripts a year to keep them on their toes.

I went as an observer the next year - which was the last before CENTO was dissolved - but that's another story.

The Oberon
24th Jan 2017, 11:50
CENTO TACEVAL at Diyarbakir in mid-1970s, RAF S/L mentions casually to Turkish DISTAFF that he had found a guard asleep and woken him up. Turks identify guard, give him a field court martial, put him against the wall and shoot him. S/L sent home in shock at result of his offhand remark.

Widespread rumour was that base commander had an allowance of 5 conscripts a year to keep them on their toes.

I went as an observer the next year - which was the last before CENTO was dissolved - but that's another story.
Not quite as extreme but in 1969, took the Akrotiri Vulcans to Mehrabad, as was, found a conscript pan guard stealing soft drinks from the fridge. Someone mentioned it to the liaison officer. Guard taken away and flogged.

ORAC
24th Jan 2017, 11:57
It should be noted that the Turks were having major problems with the Kurds at the time. Our accommodation, along with all military facilities were patrolled by armed guards. When we moved it was in convoy with troop trucks and armoured cars, and when we requested a visit to a mountain top remote radar head, we were told it was to dangerous - as 6 guards had been killed there 4 weeks before.

So as far as the Turks were concerned the guard had endangered the lives of all his comrades in an active war zone.

Fareastdriver
24th Jan 2017, 14:09
At Nicosia during the Turkish invasion of Cyprus the Turkish guards around the airfield would keep calling each other during the night.

This was to keep each other awake. Should one be asleep when the officer came around he was dead; then or later.

BEagle
24th Jan 2017, 15:01
Back in RAFG B(I)8 days, the aircraft carried US special weapons and when loaded were guarded by armed Spams with very clear orders regarding the No Lone Zone.

One snowy night, a pilot saw that the guard had fallen asleep. So he (bravely and very stupidly) took a few steps across the Red Line and back, then crept away around the corner, made a loud noise, which woke the guard, who promptly and correctly challenged him when he reappeared.

"Has anyone else been here?" asked the pilot.
"Sir, no Sir!", replied the guard.
"Then what made those footprints into the No Lone Zone...??"
:uhoh:

Bigpants
24th Jan 2017, 16:57
The UK should bring back National Service for people aged 65-68. After all if some future Government wishes to send the Army on a "Peacekeeping Mission" in Afghanistan it's hardly fair to send young people on patrol because, God forbid and they get blown up, they will really miss their legs and gentlemens parts.

On the other hand if a couple of 65 year olds lose some of their lower bits through an IED they will not mind as much because they have had a good chance to employ them.

This would also mean Tony Blair and Gordon Brown would be eligible for service.....

Tankertrashnav
24th Jan 2017, 17:34
Well all I can say is I'm glad I'm 70!

Herod
24th Jan 2017, 21:03
Come on, TTN. We could have lots of fun with things that go "bang". And get a 68 year-old to lead the party.

ORAC
2nd Mar 2017, 13:24
Sweden to bring back military service ? POLITICO (http://www.politico.eu/article/sweden-to-bring-back-military-service-military-defense/)

Sweden’s government on Thursday backed the reintroduction of compulsory military service for men and women born in or after 1999.

The country’s armed forces is planning to add 4,000 recruits a year in 2018 and 2019, the government said in a statement. It added that the military lacked 1,000 soldiers and sailors as well as 7,000 reservists.

“We have had a difficult time manning the war units on a voluntary basis and it has to be addressed in some way. Therefore, it is necessary to reactivate conscription,” Defense Minister Peter Hultqvist told Swedish radio........

MPN11
2nd Mar 2017, 16:27
"I'd like to volunteer to do that, Captain Mainwearing, Sir'"

I'm sure we 'over 70s' could add some value, provided it didn't involve running around.

"Err, may I be excused for a minute, Captain?"

Herod
2nd Mar 2017, 16:53
MPN11. Exactly. See my earlier posts re "Citizen's Militia"

pr00ne
2nd Mar 2017, 18:57
To do what?

racedo
2nd Mar 2017, 19:05
Herod, just couldn't imagine the youth of today being given a gun to keep at home, the crime rate would go off the scale.

Only for a couple of weeks.

racedo
2nd Mar 2017, 19:09
Government would have to conscript men and women in equal numbers now.

Infantry 50% female.... that would be amusing.

9 months later and it would be just Infant

NutLoose
3rd Mar 2017, 10:57
"I'd like to volunteer to do that, Captain Mainwearing, Sir'"

I'm sure we 'over 70s' could add some value, provided it didn't involve running around.

"Err, may I be excused for a minute, Captain?"

We could put spreader plates on your zimmer and send you mine clearing :p

NutLoose
3rd Mar 2017, 11:03
Back in RAFG B(I)8 days, the aircraft carried US special weapons and when loaded were guarded by armed Spams with very clear orders regarding the No Loan Zone.

One snowy night, a pilot saw that the guard had fallen asleep. So he (bravely and very stupidly) took a few steps across the Red Line and back, then crept away around the corner, made a loud noise, which woke the guard, who promptly and correctly challenged him when he reappeared.

"Has anyone else been here?" asked the pilot.
"Sir, no Sir!", replied the guard.
"Then what made those footprints into the No Loan Zone...??"Wasn't there a case in RAFG of a Sgt plod sneaking out and catching Baby Plods asleep in their boxes then charging them, the rules were you had to call the box to let them know someone was on his way out..but of course that would awaken you... It all went to his plan until one guard following the ROE raised his SMG, cocked it, pulled the trigger and it jammed, he repeated the procedure, again it jammed, the Sgt was now a quivering wreck on the floor.... said Plod moved to proper policing and Sgt returned to UK.

ORAC
3rd Apr 2017, 06:36
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2017/apr/03/lithuania-fears-russian-propaganda-is-prelude-to-eventual-invasion

Lithuania fears Russian propaganda is prelude to eventual invasion

polyglory
3rd Apr 2017, 18:32
Well all I can say is I'm glad I'm 70!

Agree there:ok:

sidewayspeak
4th Apr 2017, 18:47
Can't see conscription working in the UK now. Youth know their 'rights'.

So many different religions and nationalities that would not want to fight for the UK.

Diversity and equality - Govt would have to call up equal numbers of men and women. That would be like selecting a 50/50 male -female England Rugby team - and taking on an all-male team. Slaughtered.

Heaven help us if it ever gets to that.

Pontius Navigator
5th Apr 2017, 17:34
SS, the German model allowed objectors to work in the health service. I believe when conscription ended there were worries that hospice would be short handed.

Mind you, having just been in hospital, I would not want someone on national service to look after me, even as a cleaner, if their heart was not in it.