RTÉ: RAF plane make unapproved landing at EINN

[Just a spotter]

According to RTÉ, 18th Jan 2017, an RAF C130 landed at Shannon on Dec 29th last without prior government approval.

RAF plane made unapproved Shannon landing (http://www.rte.ie/news/2017/0118/845875-shannon-raf-landing/)

JAS

[cokecan]

the only remotely interesting thing about this is whether it was a pre-planned landing, and the requirement for diplomatic clearance got lost in the fog, or whether it was an on-the-hop decision by the aircraft commander who wasn't happy with his/her fuel state...

the press nerds amongst us might note that all the different Irish media who have run this story are using exactly the same copy.

[Simplythebeast]

RAF in 'utterly shocking' unauthorised Hercules plane landing in Ireland - Sky News
https://apple.news/A0MDy3OhhT9KyBXGEojiaEA

[Heathrow Harry]

I'd have though they want all the traffic they can get - Prestwick wouldn't complain if a couple of Tu-95's dropped in unannounced I'm sure

[Basil]

Its just a wee Stormont and the Taoiseach . . . ;)
Nah, have to work on that one a bit more.

Anyway, I'm sure they had ATC clearance to land which, other than in an emergency, would have suggested to the captain that dip clearance had been granted.

[Dan Winterland]

As it's one of 29 such landings in Eire by RAF aircraft in 2016, I guess it's just a paperwork problem. the fact it occurred on the 29th Dec might be a clue as to the source of the hold up!

It's been blown out of proportion for some political capital by one politician.

[Just This Once...]

Indeed.

Was the aircraft expected: yes
Did it speak to the ATC region and pass its intentions: yes
Did it receive an ATC hand-over to the airfield: yes
Did it comply with ATC instructions: yes
Did it receive landing clearance: yes
Did it receive taxi instructions: yes
Did it receive ground support and refuelling: yes
Did it pay for the above services: yes
Did a stupid politician make far too much of an issue regarding the dip clr paperwork when a friendly next door neighbour's state aircraft lands at one of its airfields, even when they live under the air defence umbrella provided by that state, has open boarders with that state and has joint responsibility for certain parts of governance of that state: yes

[Max Contingency]

I remember this happening once before. 771 put a Sea King into Eire at the end of a Sarop, no drama as conventions exist to cover that. They went down bird and the Sqn sent a follow up cab but without dip clearance. The military attaché made a couple of quick phone calls and it turned into a non event.

However, taking a military aircraft into a foreign country without dip clearance is technically an invasion so I can see the Irish point of view here.

[Basil]

I've never been over-impressed by the British Foreign Office.
Just try, as an airline captain, asking them for an opinion on the risks for foreign civilians in an overseas country . . . :rolleyes:

[skydiver69]

Don't we provide air defence to the Republic? If so why would there be any sort of issue with the RAF landing there?

[alfred_the_great]

Having been involved in Dipclear quite a lot recently, very rarely is the FCO at fault. It is nearly always a local co-ordination problem, generally by process between host military and host foreign affairs.

Not helped in some countries where there is little to no delegation of powers out of hours.

[3 bladed beast]

Standing dip clearance for non armed, non "war mongering" tasks.

Add that to everything "just this once" wisely said!!!

Must have been a slow news day.

[Whenurhappy]

Basil,

The FCO is limited to giving advice as contained in the FCO travel Advice. Now that may seem tautological, but the FCO Travel Advice is a cross-government piece of work reviewed as often as necessary by seniors from FCO, MOS, Home Office, plus the Security Services. In my previous role I would actively contribute to it, sometimes daily, but would also get enquiries from MOD and PJHQ, saying 'yes, but what's it really like?'. This one agreed security advice avoids the chaotic system the US has, whereby DOD, COCOMS and State Deparment can give wildly differing advice.


Some of you will know a colleague of mine (RAF) who ignored FCO travel advice very recently, and narrowly missed being involved in a terrorist incident with his family; indeed they passed the gunman as he walked up the road to attack a nightclub!

[Cows getting bigger]

Lots of that in Shannon. :)

Anyway, isn't the world now crazy enough that the UK should try it's own Bay of Pigs?

[Sketretal]

Don't we provide air defence to the Republic? If so why would there be any sort of issue with the RAF landing there?
No we don't. That's the issue of sovereignty, neutrality, non-NATO etc raised in the article.

[Basil]

Whenurhappy, thank you for your enlightening comment.
It's always more complicated than my irritated opinion.

[B Fraser]

So, both ATC and diplomatic clearances are required ?


To be sure, to be sure.

[Just This Once...]

No we don't. That's the issue of sovereignty, neutrality, non-NATO etc raised in the article.

Yes we do, otherwise who would they call with an unresponsive airliner in their airspace? We also help with SAR, fishery protection and customs.

Ireland is a very friendly and cooperative neighbour far removed from the political rant in the press. I am slightly surprised that the Irish press has not linked their recent coverage to previous articles on Irish airspace post 9/11, Russian incursions, notifications and alerts from the UK, RAF Typhoons escorting intruders etc etc.

[BEagle]

When Bear chasing a while ago, the Air Defence system picked up a pair of northbound Bears to the south west of Eire. The only way to catch them from where we were was to route across Eire to achieve cut off.

SOC obtained clearance immediately from the Irish, who couldn't have been more helpful; we were cleared as required and nabbed our targets.

[Tankertrashnav]

The British Embassy in Dublin has since told Irish officials that the Hercules was unarmed ...

It wasn't one of the ground attack or bomber versions of the Herc then? ;)

[Rossian]

.....went with a two a/c det to Elmas in Sardinia.
While the crews sorted out the a/c I set off with detcom to introduce him to OC Ops (whom I knew, personal touch and all that). As we walked across the dispersal a car came up to us at high speed containing a VERY cross OC Ops.
"Get in" shouted and back to the ops building.
0ooer missus. Not a great start.
Back in his office we were treated to a huge tirade using words like "arrogance"
"lack of respect" "disregard of normal procedures" bla blah.
Another crew had done the same thing the week before.
I protested that I had signalled CommanderXXXXX (Someone else I knew)at Maristat and if a call was made to him it would be sorted out.
Grudgingly he did so and visibly, as the conversation went on, he deflated.
The fax machine behind him chuntered into life and the dipclears for both flights appeared.
As we went back to the a/c detcom said WTF was all that about? as he didn't speak Italian. I'll tell you later.
As alfie_the_great said above it was a local, national screw up rather than any fault of the FCO.
It ain't what you know it's who you know.

The Ancient Mariner

[ICM]

I've been interested to see mentions of the FCO regarding this incident. From what I recall from 1973/74, whilst at Upavon, the Dipclear Office (next to mine) was a Sergeant and a Clerk, using a FCO manual for reference but responsible for all the signals traffic to Embassies themselves.

[Onceapilot]

Can anyone answer the questions in post #2? cokecan is on the money.:)

OAP

[Willard Whyte]

It wasn't one of the ground attack or bomber versions of the Herc then?

Sadly we don't have any AC- or MC- 130s

[Lima Juliet]

I've shared a Guinness or two with the current GOC of the Irish Air Corps - a very nice man indeed and very pro Irish/Brit relations. As others have said, this looks like more 'fake news' and a politician making headlines for her own political agenda; no more than an admin error I'm sure.

[3 bladed beast]

Once a pilot...

There is standing dip clearance for training/non armed/ non mission related aircraft.

On this day, due to poor weather at Kef, the crew had to go via Shannon for fuel/ pre position out of Brize ( also due to weather)

In an ideal world, a retraction by the various news agencies should occur, as this was just hyped up, false reporting over a normal flight.

[Onceapilot]

Once a pilot...

There is standing dip clearance for training/non armed/ non mission related aircraft.

On this day, due to poor weather at Kef, the crew had to go via Shannon for fuel/ pre position out of Brize ( also due to weather)

In an ideal world, a retraction by the various news agencies should occur, as this was just hyped up, false reporting over a normal flight.


Thanks for that.;) Do you know if the correct standing dip was on the flightplan? If it was, there is no case.

OAP

[Pontius Navigator]

Thanks for that.;) Do you know if the correct standing dip was on the flightplan? If it was, there is no case.

OAP
Nail, head, exactly my thought. The Dipclear must be quoted. However I admit to overflying a couple of islands without dipclear, one Spanish or Faeroes, the Greeks however created 7 bells if you even entered their FIR.

[ORAC]

........ the Greeks however created 7 bells if you even entered their FIR. They weren't very impressed when we did it with 2 x VC-10 tankers and 4 x F-4 on point CAP over HMY Britannia back in 1986 - particularly when we intercepted and escorted away one of their Albatross maritime aircraft who came for a looksee. He came back later with 4 of his own F-4 mates.

I believe there were some interesting conversations.

[Pontius Navigator]

We once had an issue with the French in 1964 too. Flying home, FL 450, minding our own business .

"What is your aircraft type" elicit the reply, "4-Jet".

On further probing we expanded to " RAF 4-Jet 4-Jet"

They replied "Are you Vulcan XM645?". Fair cop. They had 2 Mirage port side and two RCAF F104 starboard. Something perked their interest but no idea what.

[Lonewolf_50]

However, taking a military aircraft into a foreign country without dip clearance is technically an invasion so I can see the Irish point of view here. No, it's not. I am not sure how you arrive at that turn of phrase. An invasion is a hostile act. Making a mistake is not by definition a hostile act, though it can be one if the error includes the use of, for example, live ordnance. It depends on the situation, and nations have embassies and comms to handle such situations. The only news here, which isn't really news, is that there is an Irish politician who is a blowhard. Given that he's a politician, it is par for the course.