US fighter jet 'in mid-air duel with Russian plane above Area 51'

[Warmtoast]

Story in the Daily Mirror 'US fighter jet in mid-air duel with Russian plane above Area 51' - true or false?
See here:
US fighter jet 'in mid-air duel with Russian plane above Area 51' sparking fears America is preparing for war - Mirror Online (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/fighter-jet-in-mid-air-9644943)

[99 Change Hands]

True, see here:

Groom Lake Su-27 ? FighterControl ? Home to the Military Aviation Enthusiast (http://www.fightercontrol.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=16&t=140736)

[ORAC]

They bought 2 x SU-27s from the Ukraine in mid-2009. Widely reported in the aviation press at the time.

[Warmtoast]

TVM Chaps.
Interesting nevertheless.

[India Four Two]

Nothing new, they've been doing it for over 50 years:

http://images.gr-assets.com/books/1320556569l/3683199.jpg

Excellent book. Recommended.

[Simplythebeast]

" A terrifying sign that America could be preparing for war with Moscow"...
Gotta love the media.

[Brian W May]

Yep, more journo bollocks . . . .

[sandiego89]

India Four Two: Excellent book. Recommended.


Concur, a great read for anyone interested in the subject. Much of the focus is on the Red Eagles flying the MiGs at Tonopah (next door to Area 51/Groom lake proper) in the 1970's to the 1990's. Exposed scores of pilots to the MiG 17, 21 and 23. I found the parts on the MiG-23 especially interesting with pilots swearing it was trying to kill them every time....


Touches a bit on the earlier MiG programs at Groom lake. I hope Mr. Davies or someone else can do a companion piece on the evaluation side at Groom- the Red Hats. Would love more technical detail on how the maintainers kept them going, how the pilots got used to them, etc.

[DaveW]

Much older types than in the OP, but these PDFs are worth a look if you've not seen them before:

Have Doughnut - Tactical Evaluation (http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB443/docs/area51_50.PDF) (MiG 21 Fishbed F) (22Mb file)

Also these sets of slides, hosted at George Washington University:

HAVE DRILL/HAVE FERRY - Exploitation of the Soviet MiG 17F (http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB443/docs/area51_52.PDF)

HAVE DOUGHNUT - Tactical Evaluation (http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB443/docs/area51_48.PDF)

Project HAVE DOUGHNUT - Exploitation of the MiG 21 (http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB443/docs/area51_49.PDF)

The GWU archive from which those are taken is a fascinating place to browse further. An easy way is to change the last digit in the filename.

This is a rather intriguing one (http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB443/docs/area51_54.PDF), apparently dated 1980. "Dobrynin" is presumably Anatoly Dobrynin (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anatoly_Dobrynin), Soviet Ambassador to the US from 1962-1986.

[Airbubba]

I found the parts on the MiG-23 especially interesting with pilots swearing it was trying to kill them every time....

I agree. And apparently it did kill Lieutenant General Bobby Bond in 1984 and Captain Mark Postai 1982 according to Davies' book.

From Wikipedia, quoting from Davies:

Major Thomas E. Drake, an experienced MiG-23 pilot who frequently said "This airplane will kill you today if you let it", emphasized the importance of good preparation to Colonel James Evans, who was preparing to learn to fly the Soviet types, by referring to "the General Bobby Bond Memorial Checkout: two take-offs, one landing, and a fatal ejection."

Colonel Gail Peck's America’s Secret MiG Squadron: The Red Eagles of Project CONSTANT PEG is also a very good read about the Red Eagles.

[TEEEJ]

They bought 2 x SU-27s from the Ukraine in mid-2009. Widely reported in the aviation press at the time.

Those were two-seaters. The Su-27 in the images is a single-seater. The sightings of Su-27s at Groom Lake go back to 2003. The claim is that at least two single seat Belorussian Su-27s were obtained during 1995.

Some footage from Groom Lake during 2003. You can see the unmistakable topside of an Su-27 from 1:07. Filmed from Tikaboo Peak.

3l08tgVSjIU&feature=related

[Fonsini]

Doubtless one of the Ukrainian purchases that were well documented back in 2009. But apparently dogfighting doesn't matter any more in Gen 5 so these must just be those poor Gen 4 guys :hmm:

Some interesting anecdotes from those early days of the Red Eagles. Any attempt to fight slow and in the horizontal against the MiG-17 would result in a loss, this included one fight against a seasoned F-14 crew. The early MiG-21 with the austere radar fit (low weight) retained nose authority at a mind boggling 70 knots and one pilot would delight in slowing to that speed, letting his opponent overshoot and then he would pull the nose up for a simulated Atoll shot. Compared to its contemporaries the MiG-21 was practically maintenance free - check the fluids, push the starter button, and away it went. USAF crews marveled at its availability rates. The early MiG-23 was regarded as a killer - of its own pilots. The engine was susceptible to all kinds of internal and external damage under g loading, and was capable of breaking away from its restraints. There were also some serious controlability issues causing many unintentional departures from controlled flight. The aircraft's acceleration was however stellar, and to universal amazement it was demonstrated to every pilot who flew against it (pity they never got hold of an MLD variant - that would have been interesting). I vaguely recall one story where a pilot exceeded Mach 2 and retarded the throttle, only to see the speed increase - something about a control kicking in that was designed to prevent engine damage by maintaining fuel flow if the pilot pulled back on the throttle too quickly. I seem to recall M=2.3 being mentioned. Maintenance Chiefs who could source or fabricate spare parts become somewhat god like and on one occasion one of their number was relieved from duty when his ego got the better of him. Opponent pilots were not told of what to expect when they flew out to the Tonopah area, and were amazed when they saw a real MiG coming at them. The general who was killed on a MiG-23 flight was responsible for his own demise and the loss of an aircraft regarded as a national security asset. As I recall there was little sympathy from the squadron for a General in his 60s taking a valuable jet on a high speed joy ride. I vaguely seem to recall something about his helmet being caught in the slipstream during ejection at Mach 2 when he lost control of the aircraft. Not pretty.

All from recollection - I really need to read it again.

[Rosevidney1]

Did the West ever get to test the MiG-19? We seemed to get the chance to evaluate virtually every other type of Soviet fighter.

[OMG Itz Fulovstarz]

Please forgive an intrusion from the civil side.

There were actually two USAF units that operated Soviet fighters. From what has been released publicly, it appears that the 4477th Test & Evaluation Squadron "Red Eagles" operated the MiG-17/21/23 from Tonopah.

The 6513th Test Squadron "Red Hats" appear to have also operated the same types from Groom Lake, but this unit was, and remains, deep black. There are rumours that this unit may have operated one of the early Sukhoi's (Su-7/9/11) but nothing confirmed. Nothing mentioned about the MiG-19.

The 6513th TS eventually became the 413th Flight Test Squadron, who appear to be solely involved in testing for the AFSOC fleet.

The unit designation for whoever is currently using MiG-29's and Su-27's is not known, although they are rumoured to be Detachment 2, 57th Wing or Det.3 53rd Test & Evaluation Group but this has never been confirmed officially and may be folklore rather than fact.

[Fonsini]

I don't believe the MiG-19 was ever evaluated in spite of its huge popularity with the Chinese. I think the MiG-21 was so close on its heels and such a capability step that the 19 was discounted.

I have had an air force veteran tell me to my face that the Russians were fascinated with the Shenyang F-6 copy of the 19 because the Chinese were able to design it with replaceable engines, he honestly believed that the Russians built the original MiG-19 with fixed engines, and that an engine fault on the delivery flight meant instant disposal. He was a pilot too. :rolleyes:

[Tay Cough]

Can't remember where I read it (probably here) but the F-117 guys were doing night shifts, the guys flying the Eastern kit were doing days and neither knew what the other was doing. Until they were allowed to have a party together...

Just to put a real spanner in the works for you. There is a privately operated two seat "warbird" Su-27 in the US. YouTube is your friend...

[TheWestCoast]

DaveW - that stealth in Kiev thing is bizarre, though it reads more like a practical joke than anything.

[West Coast]

Can't remember where I read it (probably here) but the F-117 guys were doing night shifts, the guys flying the Eastern kit were doing days and neither knew what the other was doing. Until they were allowed to have a party together...


The book discussed here talked about the rivalry the two groups had. By nature of the operations they had sleep cycles 180 from one another. The MiG pilots would boom the airport while the 117 pilots were trying to sleep, while the 117 guys would do whatever they could to wake the MiG boys. Per the book, they were read in on each others programs, not a casual meeting at a party.

[ORAC]

The Area 51 File: Secret Aircraft and Soviet MiGs (http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB443/)

"We didn?t know what 90 percent of the switches did" | Ares (http://aviationweek.com/blog/we-didn-t-know-what-90-percent-switches-did)

".....Some details of the program were declassified in 2006. It was codenamed Constant Peg, Constant after the callsign of Maj Gen Hoyt Vandenberg Jr and Peg being the wife of Col Gail Peck, another of its founders.......

Recently retired as the USAF's director of test and evaluation, Manclark gave an hour-long extempore talk at the Air Force Association this week. ("The computer puked on my slides.") From beginning to end you could have heard a pin drop in the audience. Here are a few of his comments: "In 1985 we had 26 MiGs -- MiG-21s and MiG-23s. We had had MiG-17s originally but phased them out early, and by the end of the program we still had more MiG-21s than anything else.....

On the MiG-21: "It had no gas – a point-defense fighter.

"We didn’t know what 90 percent of the switches did. We changed the ASI and parts of the oxygen system. We had one switch that we just labeled BOMB EXPLODE.

"It was fun to fly. You could see out pretty well. The limitations included the throttle – there were two rpm gauges, and if you got them too far apart, and to 80 percent rpm, it would take you 17 seconds to get military power. When you flew it a long time you found a little notch that was there to remind you not to do that.

"The A/B would not light until you were at 100 percent. But it opened the nozzle immediately, so it killed all your thrust.

"The '21 had maneuver flaps and would depart on you if you did not put them down below 250 knots. It had two buttons – down and up. If you pushed the wrong one, it would depart.

"It was a great aircraft to fight if you wanted to fight slow – maybe not against an F-18. You’re at 120 knots and still pointing at him and all he’s looking at is your nose… you get down to 80 knots, dump the nose, go to 120 and from 30 deg nose low to 40 deg nose high and you didn’t go up, but the other guy goes 'holy smokes, here he comes'." Evasive action against this deceptive maneuver often put the unwary student inside the MiG-21's weapon envelope.

"Later we got newer MiG-21s and retired the old ones. The reason was that in the morning, you’d fly an airplane where, if you pulled the handle between your legs it ejects you, and in the afternoon if you pulled the handle in the same place it undid your harness." (Manclark did not say so, but a photo of one of the new jets showed that it was a Chinese J-7, with the early MiG-21F nose and two-piece canopy.)

No such affection was earned by the MiG-21's brutish follow-on. "The MiG-23 was a nightmare, maintenance was a nightmare. The guys hated flying it, and we checked people out when they had 3-5 months left.

"We had eight MiG-23s, two of them the air-to-ground version [MiG-23BN]. At high AOA (angle of attack) they were not as stable as the radar nose types.

"It would accelerate until it blew up. The limit was 720-710 knots, but guys would look down inside and see they were going 850-880.

"Everyone who flew it spun it at least once. You’d be in a separation maneuver at 1.4 and the nose would start searching from side to side. The stab-aug was terrible – although it was faster than anything we had, you weren’t ever comfortable.

"At Red Flag in the 1970s we were told that the MiG-23 would sweep its wings [forward] and kill you. Ron Iverson [4477th operations officer 1975-79, retired as a Lt Gen] flew one of the first ones. He said, “don’t worry about it -- most of the time it’s trying to kill me”.

Overall, the operation was hazardous. Tactical Air Command "asked us for our accident rate. TAC average was three to four major accidents per 100,000 hours, Five to six was a concern. We had a rate of 100/100,000, and that wasn’t counting all of them. We spun one and we never flew it again, because you got a fire light every time you started it.".......

[Airbubba]

The book discussed here talked about the rivalry the two groups had. By nature of the operations they had sleep cycles 180 from one another. The MiG pilots would boom the airport while the 117 pilots were trying to sleep, while the 117 guys would do whatever they could to wake the MiG boys. Per the book, they were read in on each others programs, not a casual meeting at a party.

Perhaps ironically, the MiG's were used as cover for the even more secret F-117's. According to Davies' book the F-117 Bandit numbers originated with the Red Eagles' callsign:

Operationally, the F-117 pilots had even taken to using the Bandit call sign associated with the Red Eagles, a measure designed to ensure that their radio transmissions, which could be intercepted by a basic handheld scanner, did not sound out of the ordinary. In fact, the SENIOR TREND pilots had started assigning Bandit numbers to newly qualified pilots, too.

Geisler devised an interim solution for those pilots on the squadron not yet briefed on SENIOR TREND to get a look at the strange aircraft. “We would get lawn chairs and go out there at midnight and sit in the corner of our ramp. They would be asking what the hell they were doing, but I would tell them to be patient. Then all of a sudden this big old ‘Doober’ [F-117] would go by and they would just about fall out of their chairs.”

After General Bond's MiG-23 mishap rumors quickly spread that he may have crashed a stealth test aircraft on the Nevada Range. This was a little too close to the truth since he had apparently taken a couple of YF-117A flights earlier at Groom Lake. Within days, details of the MiG story were leaked to the press to tamp down speculation that might expose the F-117's.

From a New York Times article:

GENERAL KILLED IN NEVADA CRASH FLEW SOVIET JET

By WAYNE BIDDLE
Published: May 3, 1984

WASHINGTON, May 2— The Air Force general who was killed in a plane crash last Thursday in Nevada was flying a Soviet MIG-23 jet that has been used in tests against American planes equipped with radar-evading technology, according to Air Force sources.

The Pentagon has declined to comment officially on the accident, other than to say that the victim, Lieut. Gen. Robert M. Bond, vice commander of the Air Force Systems Command, was killed while flying ''an Air Force specially modified test craft.''

The accident occurred on the Nellis Air Force Range, part of a wasteland that also encompasses the Government's underground nuclear testing field. It is the headquarters for a number of secret programs. One is the Stealth project, which seeks to develop materials and shapes that will make weapons less detectable by hostile radar.

Weapons Acquired and Tested

Pentagon sources initially denied news reports that General Bond, who was 54 years old, was flying a plane involved in the Stealth project. The Air Force is known to be developing designs for a radar-evading strategic bomber and a jet fighter, but no complete models are thought to exist yet.

GENERAL KILLED IN NEVADA CRASH FLEW SOVIET JET - NYTimes.com (http://www.nytimes.com/1984/05/03/us/general-killed-in-nevada-crash-flew-soviet-jet.html)

[Ewan Whosearmy]

The US is currently operating at least two foreign fast jet types - MiG-29 and Su-27. They have been doing so for quite some time.

The assets are owned by the Air Force Flight Test Centre, AFMC, and have been thoroughly exploited by the Red Hats. Ongoing tactical exploitation - and exposure for guys going through the Weapons School and Aggressor programmes - is conducted by Det 3, 53d Wing. The RAF has a pretty good relationship with both of these FME (foreign military exploitation) units...

It's amusing that the mainstream media are making such a big deal out of this, but hardly surprising.

[India Four Two]

On the MiG-21: "It had no gas – a point-defense fighter.


About five years ago, I was waiting for a flight from Hanoi to Saigon, when ATC shut down civil flights and six VNAF Mig-21s launched. A spectacular sight.

The airport remained closed and 20 minutes later, all the Migs returned! Point defence indeed. :E

Incidentally, Hanoi Nội Bài is the civil side of what was the Phúc Yên airbase during the war. It was a frequent target of US strikes and the airfield is surrounded by bomb craters, which the resourceful locals filled with water and turned into fish ponds. Just to the north of the airfield is the infamous Thud Ridge.

[MACH2NUMBER]

ABUBBA,
I was in training at Luke AFB at that time and the official line taken on the accident was exactly as you describe.

[mr fish]

ON a related note...did any info reach the wider world regarding western types evaluated by the soviet union?
I heard a couple of F4s and F14s made their way there from iran in the 80s.

FISH.

[hoodie]

There was a previous PPRuNe thread (http://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/520932-soviets-flying-captured-us-aircraft.html) on that a few years ago.

[Red Line Entry]

Have a look at the comments on the Mirror article. Quite refreshing, as almost all recognise it as a non-story and berate the Mirror for poor journalism!

[Bevo]

"We didn’t know what 90 percent of the switches did. We changed the ASI and parts of the oxygen system. We had one switch that we just labeled BOMB EXPLODE.

Well he is laying it on a bit thick. A certain “agency” provided flight manuals and maintenance manuals translated into English.

[West Coast]

Before or after they first started flying them?

[Airbubba]

Well he is laying it on a bit thick. A certain “agency” provided flight manuals and maintenance manuals translated into English.

I get the impression that the flight and tech manuals were indeed very sparse in the beginning of the project and weren't really an emphasis item until Lt. Hugh Brown's fatal crash in 1979. After that mishap Col. Gail Peck was relieved as CO and the outfit was 'brought up to Air Force standards' in documentation and demeanor.

Here's more on the claims of little initial MiG documentation in excerpts from Col. Gail Peck's America's Secret MiG Squadron: The Red Eagles of Project CONSTANT PEG:

Initially, there were no real documents or flight manuals. We learned from other pilots that had flown the jets and by asking questions like, “What should I do in terms of an emergency procedure if this or that happens.” I am told that eventually flight manuals were written, but I have never seen them. Hopefully they will turn up and be put on display at the National Museum of the Air Force alongside other memorabilia from CONSTANT PEG.


So, just like the pilots, crew chiefs had to learn an aircraft unfamiliar to any of them. Even less so than the pilots, as maintenance manuals were almost absent and training, necessarily incomplete and informal, gave each individual nowhere near enough clues as to what his jet would do next. Couple this with a randomly available parts stock and you get a small idea of the weight of responsibility on the shoulders of the ones who strapped in our pilots. Imagine the feeling if their pilot didn’t come back.

They took old MiGs and turned them into airworthy aircraft. Everything in the cockpit was in Russian, the few manuals we had were in Russian and many parts were not available and had to be made from scratch. What they did was miraculous. I stand in awe of them.

The MiGs we flew came from another land. They were junk, scrap, wrecks, and derelicts when we got them, having been sat in a swamp or a desert and left to rot. We brought them back, and without any tech manuals they were fully restored after many months of hard work by the crew chiefs with the guidance of Bobby Ellis.

In the early 1980s the Red Eagles dealt with an office in the CIA that supplied us with technical manuals. Our CIA contacts were more on the operational side of the agency rather than the analytical side.

From Steve Davies' Red Eagles: Americas Secret MiGs:

“Trying to fly airplanes that had no original parts, no markings in the cockpit that you could read, no flight manual of how you could fly them” was tough, Oberle recalled. “We had to go through and teach ourselves all of this stuff.” There were some switches that they didn’t have to know – such as those of the SIRENA radar warning system that alerted the MiG pilot when he was being swept or tracked by an enemy radar, but for the most part it was in their best interests to know the aircraft as thoroughly as possible.

Geographically separated from Frick and the others for the time being, Morgenfeld worked on aspects of the program that required little interaction with the others. One such task was the creation of documentation, and in particular the creation of the first of many iterations of a flight manual for the MiG-21. As a template, he used an original, but “crude,” MiG-21 flight manual that had been translated into English by the Soviets for one of their customers. His focus was less on creating a document that would provide a complete step-by-step guide to flying and operating the MiG-21 – although the manual duly noted every switch in the cockpit and its function – and more about using his test pilot training to verify precisely “the basic numbers” of take-off, landing, and performance so that the MiG could be flown safely.

[West Coast]

Except from the book discusses a Jag pilot with what sounded like an aircraft issue landing at Tonopah and subsequently wrapping the cute around one of the mains. Anyone here fess up to being the guy or knowing who he is?

[Airbubba]

Except from the book discusses a Jag pilot with what sounded like an aircraft issue landing at Tonopah and subsequently wrapping the cute around one of the mains. Anyone here fess up to being the guy or knowing who he is?

I can't find any mention of the Jaguar in Davies' book but Col. Peck says it was from No. 54 Squadron and there is a small picture of the plane with the checkerboard and rampant lion markings. I can't see the aircraft number, it seems to be discreetly (or mercifully ;)) hidden behind the wing in the photo.

Maintenance guy Don Lyon tells the story (now, this is no s**t...):

When the Royal Air Force Jaguar fighter aircraft landed without notice or clearance at Tonopah, the pilot deployed his drag ’chute to slow the jet. As he attempted to turn off the runway, the crosswind changed direction into a quartering tail wind and the ’chute blew through 90 degrees and wrapped itself around the left main landing gear. The pilot didn’t know this had happened, however. We quickly drove out to the Jaguar, frantically waving at him to stop. Bill and I quickly cut the drag ’chute into several pieces to extract it from the wheels, tires, and brakes. We then guided the pilot to a parking spot outside the MiG compound and he shut the Jaguar down. When the pilot de-planed, I sliced the Jaguar patch off his flightsuit!

Security showed up immediately and essentially took the pilot into custody. He wasn’t the least bit upset and only wanted to get to a phone so he could talk to his unit at Nellis and tell them what had happened, and that he and the aircraft were secure.

I believe George Thomas was the security guy that “bagged the Brit.” Security then came into the compound and found “Obi Wan” Henderson in his office and reported that some guy had landed a funny looking airplane on their air base and was talking some kind of funny English! “Obi Wan” dealt with the issue, and the next day a couple of maintenance guys and a pilot showed up, fixed the aircraft and the jet was flown out. Neither the Brit pilot nor the maintainers saw anything unusual because all our “toys” were out of sight.

Over the years I've heard a familiar yarn about 'the time I wuz at Red Flag and wandered into Dreamland airspace'. 'Why, they debriefed me for two days and I had to quit the Air Force and become an airline pilot'. This is a variation on the old 'they fired me because I knew too much' (in my case it was usually the opposite ;)).

You can check the schedule of the Janet 737 flights to Tonopah here:

Flight Finder McCarran Intl (KLAS) - Tonopah Test Range (KTNX) FlightAware (http://flightaware.com/live/findflight?origin=KLAS&destination=KTNX)

As you can see some of the flights apparently land there, others go somewhere else.

Reminds me of this court dialog from one of Richard Lederer's books:

Q. Did you ever stay all night with this man in New York?
A. I refuse to answer that question.

Q. Did you ever stay all night with this man in Chicago?
A. I refuse to answer that question.

Q. Did you ever stay all night with this man in Miami?
A. No.

[Bevo]

Initially, there were no real documents or flight manuals. We learned from other pilots that had flown the jets and by asking questions like, “What should I do in terms of an emergency procedure if this or that happens”. Now who do you suppose those “other pilots” where and what documentation do you suppose they were using?

Geographically separated from Frick and the others for the time being, Morgenfeld worked on aspects of the program that required little interaction with the others. One such task was the creation of documentation, and in particular the creation of the first of many iterations of a flight manual for the MiG-21. Now how do you suppose Tom Morgenfeld, who was assigned to VX-4 prior to his tour with the 4477th, was able to write the flight manuals without access to the aircraft. Perhaps he had access somewhere else.

[Airbubba]

Now who do you suppose those “other pilots” where and what documentation do you suppose they were using?

Now how do you suppose Tom Morgenfeld, who was assigned to VX-4 prior to his tour with the 4477th, was able to write the flight manuals without access to the aircraft. Perhaps he had access somewhere else.

Are you alluding to the HAVE IDEA MiG-21 work Morgenfeld did at VX-4?

[99 Change Hands]

I worked with a pilot who said he took a jag into Tonapah, name of S**** L***. IIRC, he said he was held in a blacked-out caravan until road transport could arrive and it took a while to get a team up to recover the aircraft. The locals had had it to bits before the team arrived. He told me all this in 1983.

Ironically, on my next tour I worked with another jag pilot who was then posted to Tonapah on the F117.

[Ewan Whosearmy]

Airbubba

Bevo is alluding to the Red Hats (his bio states he was a commander of this squadron).

The stateside technical exploitation of the MiGs always preceded the tactical exploitation. So, when the Red Eagles (TAC) were formed, they hired their maintenance folks from the ranks of the Red Hats (Air Force Systems Command). Most of the Red Eagle initial cadre had already been checked out on the assets by the Red Hats prior to the formation of the 4477th TEF.

[Airbubba]

Airbubba

Bevo is alluding to the Red Hats (his bio states he was a commander of this squadron).

And, I think he was at VX-4 as well... :ok:

I was TDY doing some early digital engineering work at the Naval Air Development Center in Warminister, PA when we got news of Hugh Brown's crash. We knew Lockheed was hiring for some black work out West and assumed the crash was somehow involved. One of the Have Blue prototypes crashed around the same time and for years I thought that this was probably Brown's mishap.

VX-4 had some great paint jobs on their F-4's back in the day including a couple with the Playboy bunny logo.

[West Coast]

Indeed, I remember some pretty snazzy paint jobs. I suspect DACOWITS took care of their bunny at the same time they axed VMAQ-2's rabbit ears and call sign.

[OMG Itz Fulovstarz]

Folks,

Re. some of the above comments concerning manuals etc. a quick check of released CIA documents showed many English language flight and maintenance manuals for the Mig-17, MiG-19 and MiG-21F.

What's interesting are the dates the CIA circulated them....

MiG-17 - 10th May 1965
MiG-19 - 15th January 1962(?) - last digit is blurred, but resembles a "2"
MiG-21F - 4th January 1963; further manual released 13th January 1967 - this latter version appears to be produced by the "Red Hats"

Link:-

https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/

[Airbubba]

The link above takes you to a generic search page for the FOIA releases, here's possibly one of the documents, dated May 12, 1965:

https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP82-00038R001700180001-5.pdf

Do you have direct links to the documents you've found?

Hopefully Bevo and others will be writing their books when some of their work is declassified. If it ever is... ;)

The Red Eagles are depicted as a bunch of talented renegades with loose military discipline prior to George Gennin's attempt to clean things up. Small units tend to have a lot of personality in my experience. In the civilian world the Pan Am Berlin base was that way with Chicken Man, Elke, and like the Red Eagles, a guy named Weird Harold.

This excerpt from Steve Davies' book comments on the allegedly fractious relationship between the Red Eagles and the Red Hats:

At various times in the Red Eagles’ history, the squadron worked closely with AFSC’s 6513th TS, Red Hats, and its test pilots at Edwards AFB to conduct testing that fell outside of CONSTANT PEG’s original remit. “The airplanes were used not only to validate tactics, but also to do initial tests,” Matheny explained. Some 4477th TES commanders disliked such collaborative efforts, perhaps because they had little say in the matter and because the assets and their pilots were sometimes sequestered by Systems Command, but most probably because they took exposures away from the TAF – the frontline squadrons. However, these tests were usually of great value. Sometimes, AFSC wanted more, and “borrowed” assets from the 4477th TES when it needed them.

White recalled that Gen Fischer particularly disliked having to share the assets with the Red Hats. “He hated them with a passion. Several times, the only reason we did testing with them was because we were ordered to do it by HQ.” Whether Bond’s mishap had influenced Fischer’s view is not clear, but White said this: “He thought that they were unprofessional, that their facilities were shabby, and that they didn’t go by normal maintenance standards or practices.

[OMG Itz Fulovstarz]

Hi Mr. Airbubba,

Apologies, got distracted after typing Oxcart, Tagboard, Kedlock and Earning into the search box!

The link in my earlier post takes you to the initial search page, just type in whatever you're looking for in the search box and see what comes up..... which is quite surprising in the amount of material available.

The MiG-17 manual (English) is the one you have linked to.


MiG-17 manual (Russian):-

https:www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP81-01043R004000110001-0.pdf (https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP81-01043R004000110001-0.pdf)

Mig-19 manual (English):-

https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP80T00246A061400380001-8.pdf


Mig-21 Manual ( poss. "Red Hat" 1967 version) :-

https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP82-00038R001900170001-4.pdf


Mig-21 manual (1963 English version):-

https://www.cia.gov/library/readingroom/docs/CIA-RDP80T00246A030200070001-8.pdf

Hope these links work okay.

I wonder if they have anything about the 160th SOAR "re-allocating" a "Hind" back in the day......

As you say, I'm sure the really interesting stuff is yet to come?

All the best!

[Rosevidney1]

Thank you, OMG. I have tried for many years to get hold of a MiG-19 FM.

[Airbubba]

Hi Mr. Airbubba,

Apologies, got distracted after typing Oxcart, Tagboard, Kedlock and Earning into the search box!

Kedlock? I remember seeing one of those planes at the USAF Museum years ago. It was in the X-plane hangar, we missed one of the scheduled bus tours and were able to talk our way into the hangar unescorted with a relative's military ID. After a while, a docent appeared and he said that he had flown the YF-12A and the SR-71. I remember the name as something like Meacham but haven't been able to find it on any of the pertinent lists.

Thanks for the MiG manual links. :ok:

Actually, a lot of the prose in the English manuals looks better to me than in the early Airbus A300-600/A310 company manuals that were supposedly written in French and translated into English by a German. :eek:

[Airbubba]

Here's another good online resource for declassified information about the MiG's at Tonopah and Groom Lake:

The Area 51 File: Secret Aircraft and Soviet MiGs (http://nsarchive.gwu.edu/NSAEBB/NSAEBB443/)

The famous 'Det. 3 Security Manual' for the 'cammo dudes' is here.

Retired Colonel Mike Tarlton's LinkedIn listing gives an idea of how large recent operations are at Groom Lake:

Commander, Operations Group

United States Air Force

June 2010 – June 2012 (2 years 1 month)

Led 600+ military/contractor/government team comprised of 11 diverse squadrons conducting developmental and operational testing at a national test facility. Directed operations and maintenance for 25 aircraft types, and execute an $84M annual budget utilizing $4B in national assets.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/mike-tarlton-227a1998

[West Coast]

Flew by it today on J-80 headed to SFO. A whole lot of something was parked on a ramp on the north side of the field, too far to make it out.

[Airbubba]

Flew by it today on J-80 headed to SFO. A whole lot of something was parked on a ramp on the north side of the field, too far to make it out.

Some databases show Groom Lake as KXTA (Xtra Terrestrial Airport ;)) Homey Airport.

Maybe they are the overflow parking lot for Red Flag 17-1:

Red Flag 17-1 kicks off at Nellis AFB > Nellis Air Force Base > News (http://www.nellis.af.mil/News/tabid/6431/Article/1057241/red-flag-17-1-kicks-off-at-nellis-afb.aspx)

[WhatsaLizad?]

Flew by it today on J-80 headed to SFO. A whole lot of something was parked on a ramp on the north side of the field, too far to make it out.


Do you mean Tonopah? One can usually get a good look at the old Red Eagles MIG/F117 Stealth base (with covered parking slots) on a good day.


I know we can see the Area 51 dark runway on the dry lake in the distance, but I've never gotten south enough to make out any structures let alone a flight line of flying saucers or a chemtrail squadron. )))

[West Coast]

Do you mean Tonopah? One can usually get a good look at the old Red Eagles MIG/F117 Stealth base (with covered parking slots) on a good day.

Yup, about 20 miles off the airway, wish I had binoculars with me.


I know we can see the Area 51 dark runway on the dry lake in the distance

Same, a couple of pilots I've flown with have the ATIS freq for the airport. Funny enough, it didn't name the airport when I've listened to it.

[Airbubba]

Same, a couple of pilots I've flown with have the ATIS freq for the airport. Funny enough, it didn't name the airport when I've listened to it.

Some sources list MCY as the Groom Lake VOR at 117.5 MHz with weather info. Give it a try next time you're in the neighborhood. :)

[Ewan Whosearmy]

<Thread revival>

CONSTANT PEG footage:

https://youtu.be/BayjAFra_6U

[NutLoose]

Here is the Luftwaffles Mig 29 manual

http://www.jasonblair.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/06/MIG29-Flight-Manual-Pt-1.pdf


it may be of interest

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Soviet-Flight-manuals-on-CD-MiG-21-MiG-29-Su-27-IL-2-many-more-EXPANDED-/162165407615


https://www.ebay.com/itm/Soviet-Flight-manuals-on-CD-Disc-2-MiG-29-MiG-25-Su-27-and-many-more-/162626974409



interestingly they have included the Soviet’s thoughts on the Jaguar too... I wonder if it includes a lot of laughing?

..