12 O'Clock High (the film)

[Wander00]

Anyone at IOT, students or staff, in the 80s may want to reminisce on the Leadership Phase as 12 O'Clock High is on Film4 shortly (followed by Ice Cold in Alex, one my all time favourites

[MPN11]

The OH saw 12 O'Clock High far too often at IOT, but I will ask if she wants to see it again!


(EDIT. No she doesn't ;))

[Wander00]

MPN - when was OH in DIOT - I was there Nov 82-Mar 84, "B" Sqn

[Molemot]

Thanks for that! I shall have them both on the moving wallpaper. I recall meeting Sir John Mills and he told me his anecdote about Ice Cold in Alex.... watch the levels of the beer in the bar scene at the end, seems they used real beer and it took lots of takes...after which they gave up for the day.

[Hangarshuffle]

12 o clock high was also shown at the RN School of Leadership and Management (at Whale Island) when I was a prisoner there. It is a good film.
Is it authentic? Who was it based upon, if anyone?
I would like to see a modern film made about UK involvement in Iraq or Afghan from the point of the military leaders.

[MPN11]

MPN - when was OH in DIOT - I was there Nov 82-Mar 84, "B" Sqn
Slight overlap, although a bit earlier (81-83) ... PM to follow once I've checked dates with her. She didn't file her PI's as assiduously as I did ;)

[Haraka]

I remember it being shown at The Towers around '68, including the inevitable interruptions every 10 minutes or so for "analysis".
The last 20 minutes, with all the combat footage, was what most of us 99ers were waiting for..........

[noflynomore]

Apparently the bar scene took seven or eight takes and the director insisted real beer was used for realism. There are some more than amused twinkles in various eyes in that scene, just as there is (to my eye) a hint of resignation in the way JM downs his glass. The trick in that scene, as in Lord Flasheart's dramatic entrance in Blackadder is not to watch the principal actor but to study the rest. Their faces tell a story. Priceless!

[Lonewolf_50]

US Navy LMET used that as a standard training tool, circa early 1980s when I went through. I wonder if they still do? My junior officers had seen it when I was a department head, but that's 20 years ago.

[POBJOY]

Probably one of the best opening scenes ever when Harvey stands on that long abandoned dispersal and the starters wind up. Of course in that very 'non pc world' no-one seems to have complained about the Leper Colony.
I used to love it when it was used as a training exercise as you could wind up the 'trainers' by pointing out the wrong types of Jeep or 109's being called 190's.
Shame more of it not shot in the UK.

[kintyred]

12 O'clock High? I just remember some rather loud snoring in Whittle Hall......it woke me up.
Ice Cold In Alex? Only bettered by Lawrence Of Arabia!

[tdracer]

12 o clock high was also shown at the RN School of Leadership and Management (at Whale Island) when I was a prisoner there. It is a good film.
Is it authentic? Who was it based upon, if anyone?
Twelve O'clock High was a fictional story (as was the bomb group portrayed), but was loosely based on a real bomb group and commander, with lots of actual incidents rolled into the storyline.
I watched something a while back where they discussed the real people that the movie characters were based on, but I don't recall details.

[Wander00]

I believe 12 O'clock High was superseded by the BBC Shackleton (the explorer) programmes

[Jwscud]

I seem to recall from "A Wing and A Prayer" that Beirne Lay, who co-wrote the novel it was based on flew some missions with the 100th Bomb Group and adapted some of their experiences for the book.

If you haven't read it, A Wing and a Prayer is the memoir of a Navigator from the 100th BG and is bloody brilliant.

[Fareastdriver]

Should you be an Eighth Air Force fan the book 'A Fall of Fortresses' written by Elmer Bendiner is worth a read.

[PersonFromPorlock]

Probably one of the best opening scenes ever when Harvey stands on that long abandoned dispersal and the starters wind up.This. Just a perfect segue into the past.

[polecat2]

"Twelve O'clock High" is one of my favourite WW2 - themed films because of the feeling of authenticity about it, despite some the usual cliches to make it more entertaining to the general public.
It is based on incidents in early 1943 when Col. Frank Armstrong (Frank Savage in the film), one of the 8th AF pioneers, was promoted to Brigadier General and assigned command of the 306 Bomb Group based at Thurleigh (later RAE Bedford).
The 306 BG was going through a rough patch: losses were high, morale was poor and the group had a defeatist attitude. Armstrong's task was to turn it round and the film is basically about how he did this.
It was scripted by Major Sy Bartlett who had worked with Armstrong in England and was involved in script-writing for Hollywood and Col Bierne Lay, one of the original 8th AF staff officers in England.

Polecat

[Gemini Twin]

Since we have drifted a bit into recalling books written by US crew based in England in WWII, I must add one of the greatest, "Serenade to the Big Bird"
by Bert Stiles. Most impressive account I have come across about these amazing young men during a momentous period.

[Dan Winterland]

I was told that Apollo 13 replaced 12 o'clock High at Cranditz.

A good film, I seem to recall watching it on a Saturday morning prior to a lunchtime stack and heading for London to drink beer and get laid. made a nice change to the usual DIOT BS. The combat footage was real. I bought it on DVD for a quid. haven't watched it since IOT though.

As for Ice Cold - I defy anyone to watch that and not want a cold one. It was one of the first examples of product placement in a movie before it came commonplace. Look for 'Carlsberg' on the beer glasses!

[Fareastdriver]

Look for 'Carlsberg' on the beer glasses!

Especially, as at the time it was supposed to happen, the Carlsberg brewery was occupied by the Germans.

[westhawk]

If anyone else enjoyed perhaps the greatest dressing down on film as much as I, HERE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LOGl_7a2nWU) ya go!

[octavian]

For another excellent film, I would recommend Appointment in London portraying a fictional Lancaster squadron, again set in WW2. Written by Wg Cdr John Wooldridge a former flight commander on 106 Squadron, it has similar overtones to 12 O'clock High. I've always thought it would have been appropriate for OCTU/IOT. Mine was 255 at Henlow 1971-72. Where has all that time gone?

[BEagle]

As Haraka wrote, "Twelve o'clock High" was inflicted on 99 Entry during our 'Functional Leadership' training. Watching the movie in the College Hall cinema, interrupted by one of the OT (not 'IOT' in those days!) Flt Cdrs trying to make some point or other. But the combat sequences were good!

Ice Cold in Alex is an excellent movie - the bar sequence was later used by Carlsberg as an advert:

Cj63hfYeY64

A pity that some of the more revealing shots of Sylvia Syms in her unbuttoned blouse didn't make it into the final print though...:sad:

[Hangarshuffle]

If anyone else enjoyed perhaps the greatest dressing down on film as much as I, HERE ya go!

Fantastic scene that totally draws you in to listen,and directed in such a way the camera frame includes and never leaves either participant for much of the dialogue until Peck leaves his desk. Riveting.

[sangiovese.]

I remember watching it on IOT and falling asleep during it....then being told at the end we had to write an essay on leadership points from the film....ah :eek:

[PPRuNeUser0139]

That opening scene..

aaTnqdeDrjE

[ShyTorque]

Aah yes, how things have changed....

These days he'd get back to the road to find some barsteward had stolen his parcel and the bike.

[PPRuNeUser0139]

That's exactly the thought I had when I watched that short clip before posting it. Sad world we live in now.

[pr00ne]

ShyTorque/sudevalve,

Rubbish! Just as likely to have been stolen then as now.

[BEagle]

Probably less likely back then ONLY because there were fewer people living in the UK in those days.

Not everyone was particularly honest - looting wasn't unknown during the aftermath of air raids.

Nevertheless, even in the 1960s you could leave a car parked with the keys in the ignition in my local market town in Somerset and it would still be there when the owner returned...

As for Twelve o'clock High, the old aerodrome at the beginning was near Toronto, but some of the aerodrome shots were taken at RAF Barford St. John. Don't try visiting there though, it's now one of Uncle Sam's aerial farms.

[ShyTorque]

Rubbish! Just as likely to have been stolen then as now.

Well you should have left others' property alone. :E

[pr00ne]

Me, ride a bike! Never...

[Pontius Navigator]

BEagle, at risk of ribbing, you can still leave your car unlocked in our village in Lincolnshire though I fear times are changing as we are a major tourist village

[Pontius Navigator]

FED, maybe the Carlsberg had been captured too.

[pr00ne]

I regualrly leave mine unlocked in Central London, inadvertently of course. Not had it nicked yet.
Maybe no one could drive in early 60's Somerset or contemporary Lincolnshire village?

[ShyTorque]

I leave mine unlocked in the hope that someone might leave me a better one.

[Fonsini]

I always marvel at that beer pour, how it doesn't fob over is a miracle.

And Sylvia Syms has much the same effect on me, she was a rare beauty.

[oldpax]

The Bar in "Ice cold in Alex"still exists and I have had a drink in it!Bit more upmarket now though!!

[Dan Winterland]

I suspect there were other Carlsberg breweries in other countries in WW2 - Egypt probably had one. Carlsberg 'franchise' their product extensively - and aren't too hot on quality control. Those who have been to Cyprus may know the Cypriot Carlsberg brewed by Keo which tastes suspiciously like Keo and gives the same thumping hangover. And those who have tried San Miguel brewed Carlsberg in Hong Kong will know that it's best avoided. It tastes nothing like the real Danish product.

[The Oberon]

Completely different genre but a more light hearted slant on the Americans in East Anglia. "Over Here" with Martin Clunes and Simon West is well worth a watch.

[TBM-Legend]

'twas 12 O'Clock High in my OTS in Oz for leadership...

[BEagle]

Fonsini, hope this won't bust your sphygmomanometer:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/alex.jpg (http://s14.photobucket.com/user/nw969/media/alex.jpg.html)

:ok:

That scene didn't make the final edit; I guess that it was a bit too much for the films of those days, if they weren't to be X-rated...:hmm:

[Fixed Cross]

Not quite a leadership exercise BUT:-

In 73 the 30 odd Sqn Ldrs on my 4 week Basic Staff Course at Bracknell were shown a 30 minute clip of 12 o' clock high and then asked to write a 1369 on all three main characters. All of the numerical assessments for character qualities were then dissected.
Between the 30 odd results the course individuals had managed to score at least once from 1 to 9 for every characteristic. What price promotion prospects from that range of assessments?

[Tankertrashnav]

I leave mine unlocked in the hope that someone might leave me a better one.

Shy Torque I once had an old tatty Escort (I think it was) and I couldn't get the key out of the ignition. Solution, I just left it there for the year or so I owned the car, and never locked it.

Never got stolen, and I came to the conclusion that not even the joyriders of West Cornwall were that desperate!

[Herod]

hope this won't bust your sphygmomanometer:

No, but I think the effects of the bromide are beginning to wear off.

[ShyTorque]

Shy Torque I once had an old tatty Escort (I think it was) and I couldn't get the key out of the ignition. Solution, I just left it there for the year or so I owned the car, and never locked it.

Never got stolen, and I came to the conclusion that not even the joyriders of West Cornwall were that desperate!

I think I bought it later .... ;)

[Top West 50]

I recall Tunes of Glory being shown at the "learn to love your student course" c1969

[Fonsini]

Fonsini, hope this won't bust your sphygmomanometer:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/alex.jpg (http://s14.photobucket.com/user/nw969/media/alex.jpg.html)

:ok:

That scene didn't make the final edit; I guess that it was a bit too much for the films of those days, if they weren't to be X-rated...:hmm:

Good lord BEagle where on Earth did you find that !

Definitely a girl that would stop traffic, including air traffic.

[longer ron]

Of course - in the original book 'Ice Cold in Alex' - the lovely nursing orficer fell for the Sergeant Major - but that would not have been 'cricket' for the cinema in those days - 'What'

:)

[Tankertrashnav]

In the past few weeks I've seen John Mills doing his chirpy cockney corporal in Dunkirk, his posh naval officer in Morning Departure and his flawed alcoholic officer in Ice Cold in Alex, and of course he got an Oscar for playing the village idiot in Ryan's Daughter, showing what a versatile actor he was. Definitely more likely to get the girl than craggy Harry Andrews playing the RSM as a father figure.

[longer ron]

Absolutely TTN - perhaps with wartime promotion Chris Landon had a somewhat younger and better looking MSM in mind :)
I cannot find our copy of the book (it might not have survived the last move).
Great Film and book - possibly one of the rare occasions where the film is better than the book in some ways!
Authentically written by an ex RAMC and RASC Major who obviously had experience with alcohol.

From Bear Alley
Christopher Landon Bio

He was educated at Lancing College and Clare College, Cambridge, where he studied medicine. However, after working in a hospital and facing the realities of a medical career, he gave up the idea of becoming a doctor and found work as a journalist until 1936 when he entered the Stock Exchange.

In the early months of the Second World War, Landon was a 2nd Lieutenant with the R.A.M.C. (T.A.). He served with the 51st Field Ambulance in the Western Desert and with the 1st S.A. Division. With the Royal Army Signal Corps in Persia, he commanded the first native company raised for the aid-to-Russia trans-Persian route. He left the army with the rank of Major and relinquished his commission in 1951.

Landon returned to the Stock Exchange but subsequently resigned membership and became the licensee of a country pub. He also became a thriller writer using his experiences in war and civilian life to ground his novels in reality. A Flag in the City, his first novel, was set in wartime Persia; his second, Stone Cold Dead in the Market, was a crime novel with the Stock Exchange as a backdrop.

Landon co-wrote the screenplay for Ice Cold in Alex and also wrote short stories; the listing of the latter below is probably incomplete and the IMDB notes that an episode of The Errol Flynn Theatre entitled "The Ordeals of Carol Kennedy", broadcast in 1957, was based on one of his stories.

Landon was married twice—to Isabella C. Campbell in 1935 and to Agnes G. T. Murphy in 1947—and had three children. He died at his home in Frognal, Hampstead, from barbiturate and alcoholic poisoning on 26 April 1961. An inquest was held a few days later, on Monday, 1 May 1961, at which a doctor stated that Landon had taken 35 sleeping tablets over a period of five days. Agnes Landon revealed that Landon, who suffered from thrombosis in the legs and had been ill for many years, would drink heavily whilst writing his books. He often worked late and would sleep in his study; she had left him working at 11 pm but found him dead when she went to his study the next morning.

A verdict of accidental death was recorded.

[Top West 50]

I'm surpised Beagle hasn't sparked on Tunes of Glory. After all, it was Susannah York's first major film, I think, playing Col Jock Sinclair's (Alec Guinness at his very best) daughter. John Mills plays Col Barrow, retuning having spent the war as guest of the Japs, to take command of the regiment. The ever loyal Gordon Jackson as the Adj and Dennis Price as the Brigade Major (try writing a 1369 on him, particuarly the boxes for "loyalty" and "sense of duty")!

[longer ron]

TW50
Yes - Tunes of Glory is one of my favourite films - and what a 'character' study it is,absolutely brilliant film.

:ok:

[Tankertrashnav]

Another terrific film, and I wish it would get a showing from time to time in the "old British black and white" slot. What a choice casting directors had in those days with the likes of Mills, Guinness, Olivier and many other huge talents. I suppose I am just prejudiced on account of my age, but I can't put any of today's actors in the same league.

[BEagle]

'Tunes of Glory' was surely made in colour, not B&W?

For another very good B&W military movie, there's the excellent 'Guns at Batasi' with a brilliant performance by Richard Attenborough as RSM Lauderdale:

qzKTOUkroU0

[Tankertrashnav]

You are right, I stand corrected - its so long so I saw it that I automatically assumed it was in b & w like so many excellent films of what I consider to be the golden age of British cinema.

Attenborough's brilliant RSM in Guns at Batasi became the definitive portrayal of the army WO/SNCO and was subsequently much imitated by other actors. Even Windsor Davies's BSM Williams in It Aint Half Hot Mum is obviously influenced by Attenborough's RSM Lauderdale.

[longer ron]

Yes it is quite confusing sometimes perhaps when one watched a film an B+W TV some years ago to find it is in colour :)

[Wander00]

I always thought "Flying Leathernecks was in B&W, as it was the first film I saw on our monochrome TV as a teenager. Much better in colour though. Sylvia Simms "whoooorrrrr!!!!!"


PS "Tunes of Glory" - brilliant and "The Black Bear", which we played in our school pipe band (of which another poster on here was a member) still makes my hair stand on end

[Top West 50]

Part Three, The Return to Barracks - you mean men! The Black Bear will pull us together...

[Fonsini]

Guns at Batasi, an RSM done right - I doubt any officer ever forgot to remove his hat in the Sergeant's Mess after seeing that.

For an RSM gone wrong there is always "The Hill".

[Dutystude]

The Way to the Stars.

With this poem penned by a pilot and handed to his young widow with new born son by a fellow flyer when her husband failed to return:

Do not despair ... for Johnny-head-in-air;

He sleeps as sound. ... as Johnny underground.

Fetch out no shroud ... for Johnny-in-the-cloud;

And keep your tears ... for him in after years.

Better by far ... for Johnny-the-bright-star,

To keep your head ... and see his children fed.

Still gets me

[Tailspin Turtle]

At one time Twelve O'clock High was a case study at the Harvard Business School, as was Twelve Angry Men.

[Innominate]

Dutystude

It is indeed a cracking poem, which I intend (eventually...) to have read at my funeral. However, it was written by John Pudney https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Pudney who was an intelligence officer rather than aircrew. He published a volume of RAF-related poems either during, or just after, the war.

[Dutystude]

Innominate

Hope the reading will not be too soon.

Yes I know of John Pudney.

Memory likely to be playing tricks but I believe that, in the context of the story, the lines are penned by Flt Lt Archdale (deceased husband) rather than copied from a book.

Far more poignant don't you think

[Dr Jekyll]

Naïve question from a civvy. (ex ATC cadet though). What would have happened to a group commander relieved of command like Davenport in the film? Some kind of HQ job? Early retirement? Might there be a way back to command in the future?

[KenV]

In the US, when a commanding officer is removed from command for cause, that is the end of his career. If he has enough years in, he will be retired. If he does not have enough years in, he will likely be forced out ("up or out"). If this was during a global war like WW2, some kind of staff position would likely be found for him at least for the duration of the war.