Petition by Carol Voderman

[Fred Tesson]

Hi there,

Link below to a petition that some of you folks might like to sign.

Fred Tesson

https://www.change.org/p/give-britain-s-last-surviving-dambuster-hero-a-knighthood/sign?utm_source=action_alert_sign&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=695309&alert_id=npxxwEhKyJ_fZFqSEQL0ddXgHJNc3tH%2FtQb1Ise28BqulHAoq vR8G4%3D

[just another jocky]

Link (https://www.change.org/p/give-britain-s-last-surviving-dambuster-hero-a-knighthood?utm_source=action_alert_sign&utm_medium=email&utm_campa%20ign=695309&alert_id=npxxwEhKyJ_fZFqSEQL0ddXgHJNc3tH%2FtQb1Is%20e28BqulH AoqvR8G4%3D) to save copy & paste.

[MPN11]

Given the casual distribution to sports-people and luvvies, why not?

Except that it further debases the Orders of Chivalry, which has already plumbed the depths of banality and favouritism.

A Knighthood for being the last Dambuster? Oh, come on! How about a Knighthood for Danny42C for being [probably] the last surviving Vengeance dive-bomber pilot? Or the belated Legion d'Honneur for everyone still alive who was at D-Day?

PS: The link is as awful as the concept. Try this >>> https://www.change.org/p/give-britain-s-last-surviving-dambuster-hero-a-knighthood

[glad rag]

Well if there was "natural justice" there’d be one going spare from that quisling civil servant...

[jindabyne]

I'm a tad uncomfortable about this.

On the strength of his war deeds - no. And I'm sure his beloved deceased mates would agree; medals are sufficient and appropriate.

If his charitable work has been of such significance to warrant public acclaim, then so be it.

All of that said, I'm more concerned about the lady's attraction to publicity. Not only the sporting of uniform, but her more recent exploits in Oz (handsomely rewarded). Sad sort of woman. IMO

[Danny42C]

MPN11 (#3),

God forbid !

Danny.

[Tankertrashnav]

Oh I don't know Danny, Sir Danny has a nice ring to it!

The tricky bit might be getting up again after kneeling for HM to dub you knight ;)

(No offence, I'm starting to get that problem myself, and you have a few years on me!)

Seriously though, I'm with MPN here. We need fewer medals, not more.

[ExAscoteer]

I'd rather your man got a Knighthood than Victoria bloody talentless pouting nerk Beckham got a sodding OBE!

[Melchett01]

Well if Olympians get them for doing their job - and already get a medal for that! - then why not? As has been noted, the system is already somewhat discredited, which is a shame because as a concept I like the general idea.

Still, at least we'd know what this was for. If all citations were published after the fact so we could clearly see what people were picking their gongs up for, it would get rid of an awful lot of these spurious awards very quickly as the Honours Committee simply wouldn't survive being held accountable in the court of public opinion.

[BEagle]

Thanks, Fred!

Far more deserving than people who ride bikes or play tennis!

[newt]

I agree Beags. Sixty feet at night with no radalt! A very well deserved accolade!

[Downwind.Maddl-Land]

Actually Newt, in Johnie's case it was 30 ft without the fabled light altimeter......:uhoh:

[Tankertrashnav]

He already has a DFM - a much rarer and more prestigious award than any knighthood! In my eyes anyway.

[Pontius Navigator]

Melchett, I think we see so many spurious awards - the ones that go to military brass and civil serpents merely for being promoted to a particular job or post. Does CDS still get a baronetcy now that the post has been down ranked to 4*?

Should MPs get a K simply for winning half a dozen elections or so?

Lower down the tree you actually need someone to write a recommendation and for it to be passed up the tree.

[Shack37]

All of that said, I'm more concerned about the lady's attraction to publicity. Not only the sporting of uniform, but her more recent exploits in Oz (handsomely rewarded). Sad sort of woman. IMO


That same publicity could be of great help to the Cadets she represents.
So she gets paid for appearing on a TV show, there are many who get much more for a lot less.
Sad, I don´t think so.


Petition signed, I hope it gets enough support to go all the way.:ok:

[Onceapilot]

Maybe she could also shine a light on the Cadet gliding situation?:ooh:

OAP

[dervish]

I'd like to petition Carol.....

[turbroprop]

Looking at it from a different angle. With the system being devalued, could it be that none of the present awards are worthy enough for such a great man. Respect not just for his duties during in the war, but also for his lifelong commitments after the war.

[sharpend]

I agree totally with jindabyne. The very gallant gentleman was decorated for bravery with a DFM. Unless he has done something very significant post war to warrant a Knighthood, then he should not get one. My uncle, a Lancaster pilot, was killed in action over the Ruhr, and equally was a brave man, but like many never received any medals. Moreover, I agree the comments re 'that lady'. In my opinion, she has brought the RAF and her uniform into disrepute by her antics in 'The Jungle'. Can you imagine what would happen if a regular RAF officer behaved like that on TV?

[Pontius Navigator]

Sharpend, not sure but I think a few have :)

[Danny42C]

Tankertrashnav (#7),

Nail on head ! On my knees, would need sheer legs and block 'n tackle to get me upright again ! Forget it !

Honorary Ranks to Celebrities will be getting a bad Press soon (I have in mind a Honorary Lt-Cmdr in the RNR, who is fairly well known on another PPRuNe Forum.

Pity about Ms Vorderman, done a lot of good work with the Cadets by all accounts, very easy on the eye, then does a damn' silly thing like this to spoil it all.

Have been worse things, I suppose, a few years back, didn't they put the junior Royals up for some of these infantile capers ? Hardly a PR triumph !

Gilbert had it right: "When Everybody's Somebody, Nobody's Anybody" (or something like it).

Danny.

[papa_sierra]

To all the denigrators, please read Johnny Johnson's biography, available here -
https://www.amazon.co.uk/Last-British-Dambuster-extraordinary-changed/dp/0091957753 and you might reevaluate. I think the submission for recognition is badly constructed and focuses too much on the dams raid.

[glad rag]

I agree totally with jindabyne. The very gallant gentleman was decorated for bravery with a DFM. Unless he has done something very significant post war to warrant a Knighthood, then he should not get one. My uncle, a Lancaster pilot, was killed in action over the Ruhr, and equally was a brave man, but like many never received any medals. Moreover, I agree the comments re 'that lady'. In my opinion, she has brought the RAF and her uniform into disrepute by her antics in 'The Jungle'. Can you imagine what would happen if a regular RAF officer behaved like that on TV?
sharpend, I can agree and respect your views on CV. However time has moved on and like it or not appealing to the social media generation will have great benefits to the cadets and the RAF.
IMO of course.

[Chris Scott]

Quote from sharpend:
"Can you imagine what would happen if a regular RAF officer behaved like that on TV?"

My wife and I watched most of the episodes that Carol Vorderman was in (yes, that sad! :O ) and I simply don't understand what behaviour you found inappropriate. Or is it just her taking part in a "reality" [sic] show that you are objecting to? I've never been a fan, but my opinion of her went up because of her maturity and empathy with the group. It's hardly a picnic. We were disappointed that she was eliminated about half way.

Surely her wearing of a senior RAFVR officer's uniform as an ambassador for the Air Cadets is legitimate, and is known to be only an honorary, part-time role? Therefore, she's perfectly entitled to continue with her career elsewhere, even if that sometimes involves what some of us might regard as froth. It's refreshing to have one celebrity who's able and prepared to promote maths and science, and of course aviation.

Having said that, I'm not sure she's doing the right thing in this petition. As a civilian I regard the disdain in which WW2 Bomber Command has been held by all governments and the holier-than-thou establishment for nearly 72 years now as a national disgrace. I suspect, however, that Squadron Leader Johnson would not want to be knighted simply because of the accident of longevity. No doubt he would say that its award would also reflect belated recognition of his deceased colleagues, but he would know only too well that such a sentiment would really be missing the point. For government to start awarding honours this late in the day could be regarded as an insult to those survivors who remained officially dis-honoured to the grave.

I've not read his autobiography and if his post-RAF activities merit some kind of honour, that's another matter.

[sharpend]

Chris, I have read his autobiography and can not see anything post war that merits the high award of a Knighthood. What he, and many many others, did in WW2 was incredibly brave and all crew members of RAF bombers should have received honours & awards (at the time). That Bomber Command took the flack for doing the politicians bidding (incidently, probably saving the free world from the Nazi jackboot) was unforgivable. The memorial to Bomber Command came far too late.

[SPIT]

OBE in some cases means OTHER B****S EFFORTS

[SPIT]

OBE in some cases stands for OTHER B*****S EFFORTS .

[jindabyne]

sharpend, I can agree and respect your views on CV. However time has moved on and like it or not appealing to the social media generation will have great benefits to the cadets and the RAF.
IMO of course.

Añd that says it all,
sadly.

[ValMORNA]

The 'social media generation' will, to a large extent, know little or nothing of the 'dams raid, even among those who have been taught about WWII.

[noflynomore]

A knighthood is simply an inappropriate award in this situation.

Being an active part of HM forces no matter what operation one was on is not a matter for a knighthood, that is simply the wrong gong. Besides, he has evidently been decorated, and well decorated for the part he played already. Merely passing the lottery of life to be the last remaining man on his op is even less qualification for an award, let alone one as exalted as a knighthood

If what he did deserves a knighthood today he deserved it just as much in 1944. It follows, then, that every man-jack that served with him did too. If they were not so knighted than why should he be?

Are we really in a position, morally, logically or legally to start dishing out the highest awards to old soldiers merely because they have lived a long life? Do we make value judgements on which of these old boys we decorate? Why? Because one was involved in a high-profile op and another wasn't? This makes a mockery of the entire concept of medals and awards and is a travesty on several levels.

The fragrant Gp Captain has overstepped the mark with her enthusiasm on this occasion, and it is not to the betterment of the nation, the soldier to whom is inappropriately directed, his oppos who didn't have the luck of such long life or any other surviving soldier of that war.

I'd be surprised if he, and they, didn't agree.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I've met the Gp Capt a couple of times as a passenger. She's charming, unassuming and a genuine aviation person. The cabin crew love her. As ambassadors go the Air Cadet organisation could do an awful lot worse and not much better imho.

WWW

[MPN11]

As a fringe to this topic, I'm currently reading Gen Schofield (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Schofield)'s memoirs, Forty-six Years in the Army, published in 1897.

He recommended himself for the award of the Congressional Medal of Honour!

The Wiki notes: The medal was recommended by Schofield himself when he was interim U.S. Secretary of War (1868–69). Historian Benson Bobrick is critical of this and notes the vagueness of the details in the citation.[3]

[Pontius Navigator]

MPN, while not as extreme, wasn't there an instance fairly recently in the Army? I have a vague memory that the incident happened but the writer was not present but wrote himself up.

Broadening it, I am sure many of us have done writeups on ourselves st the request of our 1st RO. I know my fair well letter, signed off by the AOC, having been written by my boss was based on my potted history draft.

[MPN11]

PN, I have a similar vague recollection of some medallic rumpus. I woukd have to trawl AARSE to dig further, but can't be aarsed ;)

I was put up for an MBE once. I suspect the 6-monthly lottery let me down on that occasion :(

[Ken Scott]

I don't believe that JJ was put up for a knighthood on the basis of his war service but on his subsequent activities- through the accident of longevity (not something he could have expected given his life history) he has spent many years in charitable works & as an ambassador for Bomber Command. Having met him he is a top bloke & using his last days productively.

I would be interested in the minutes of the meeting where they judged him not worthy & then looked over the recommendation for Ken Dodd.....

[MPN11]

I would be interested in the minutes of the meeting where they judged him not worthy & then looked over the recommendation for Ken Dodd.
Different section of the Awards Committee, I would suggest.

[Rigga]

Not agreed