UK's P-8s 'under threat'?

[airsound]

Headline in the Mirror (a UK tabloid newspaper): New RAF Poseidon spy planes "at the mercy" of Donald Trump over US deal with BoeingThe paper 'can reveal' thatBritain is relying on Donald Trump for new RAF spy planes to hunt Russian submarines lurking off the UK coastThe paper explains that this is because the UK chose to order the aircraft through the US 'foreign military sale' system rather than directly from Boeing, and it adds that the President Elect has already "clashed with" Boeing.
New RAF Poseidon spy planes "at the mercy" of Donald Trump over US deal with Boeing - Mirror Online (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/new-raf-poseidon-spy-planes-9547868)

An MOD spokesperson said:A foreign military sale with the US allows us to get the capability we need, in the timeline we want, while securing best value for the UK taxpayer. Backed by our £178 billion equipment plan, we will receive the first UK P-8A Poseidon before the end of the decade.Any PPRuNErs able to suggest whether this is a serious problem or just tabloid headline-grabbing?

airsound

[RandomBlah]

Headline in the Mirror (a UK tabloid newspaper): The paper 'can reveal' thatThe paper explains that this is because the UK chose to order the aircraft through the US 'foreign military sale' system rather than directly from Boeing, and it adds that the President Elect has already "clashed with" Boeing.
New RAF Poseidon spy planes "at the mercy" of Donald Trump over US deal with Boeing - Mirror Online (http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/new-raf-poseidon-spy-planes-9547868)

An MOD spokesperson said:Any PPRuNErs able to suggest whether this is a serious problem or just tabloid headline-grabbing?

airsound


As you say, this is nothing more than tabloid headline-grabbing. As an aside, It is very disappointing to see such naivety from the LD Defence spokesperson.

RB

[Chinny Crewman]

Given the pressure on the defence budget (see associated thread), this could provide a convenient excuse for politicians and the MoD alike. After all we've done without them for 8 (?) years now!

[sandiego89]

I agree it is a non-story tabloid speculation.


The P-8 seems mostly on track and budget and I would see it as the perfect type of program President Elect Trump would support: It creates/keeps good US jobs, is not overly gold plated, is a sensible adoption of a proven airframe, and is replacing a the Orion which most everyone agrees is in need of replacement.


The Foreign Military Sales angle is likely not an issue either. I don't think the US is directly funding the UK P-8 buy. I believe Mr. Trump will likely pursue positive relations with the UK, and will be happy with the UK buying all sorts of systems.

[Davef68]

DT seems keen on Boeing

[The Old Fat One]

It was interesting to note the recently released timescales, and a little disconcerting. Back in the old MPA thread there was a lot of traffic related to possible in service dates, with even pessimists talking of 2018/19. Now it seems we are talking of quote one ac in UK by back end of 2020 unquote.

Any one who knows procurement is going to be having one thought when they read that....money. In other words that seems to be a budget necessitated timescale, for an item which, is at least partially, off the shelf kit (yeah I know, not internally yada yada).

Even if the tortured timescale is not just down to available dosh and is as much related to restoring the whole capability (and training operators) it still represents at least a nagging worry at this stage, because this is a real thing...

Given the pressure on the defence budget (see associated thread), this could provide a convenient excuse for politicians and the MoD alike. After all we've done without them for 8 (?) years now!

We all know how politicians think and behave, any old excuse will do.

Whilst it might not be time to fret too much (don't want to be excused of being overly pessimistic - fat chance lol) I'm not sure I'd be be planning my life round it if I was one of those involved, not without a Plan B at least.

On that note, some of these US seedcorners will be into/close to their fifties come 2020. Good luck trying to shepherd them into jobs/postings they are less than keen on. :uhoh::uhoh:

[camelspyyder]

The original seedcorn trawl was for those with a minimum remaining in service time of 7 years. That will expire by the time the jets arrive in the UK (2020). It is also true that many who spend 2 tours in the US just don't come back.

[Jimlad1]

Presumably the authors and lib dem spokeswoman didnt understand that pretty much every piece of military equipment bought from the US is sold under the auspices of the FMS system?

[Lyneham Lad]

Something positive to start the year...
Additional three British and seven American P-8A Poseidon maritime patrol aircraft ordered (https://ukdefencejournal.org.uk/additional-three-british-seven-american-p-8a-poseidon-maritime-patrol-aircraft-ordered/)

Boeing has been awarded a $1.2bn contract for the manufacture and delivery of 10 Lot 9 full-rate production P-8A aircraft, seven for the US Navy and three for the Royal Air Force.

The UK intends to procure 9 of the aircraft in total and had already ordered two. This brings the orders up to 5.

[dragartist]

Rivet Joint was bought under FMS. Benefit is you get exactly the same as the US, all the publications and support including future US modifications. Not sure if this is the case with P8 but I would suspect that USDOD is the Design Authority, not Boeing. This could be seen as an advantage.

[Frostchamber]

It was interesting to note the recently released timescales, and a little disconcerting. Back in the old MPA thread there was a lot of traffic related to possible in service dates, with even pessimists talking of 2018/19. Now it seems we are talking of quote one ac in UK by back end of 2020 unquote.

Which recently released timescales and when, and where does that quote come from? As recently as November the officially stated position was that deliveries will start in 2019 and be complete by the end of 2021.

[Pontius Navigator]

Steady on chaps, look before you post. This thread was dormant for twelve months and we have people responding to old posts as if yesterday.

[Brian W May]

Steady on chaps, look before you post. This thread was dormant for twelve months and we have people responding to old posts as if yesterday.

Good point well made Nav.

Happy New Year all . . .

[KenV]

Steady on chaps, look before you post. This thread was dormant for twelve months and we have people responding to old posts as if yesterday.Good point. And given that point, it shows just how utterly stoopid the early predictions were about a Trump presidency. The actual facts totally contradict those doom and gloom predictions.

[Heathrow Harry]

ah yes - his ex-closest confidant saying meetings between his people and the Russians was "treasonous"

makes R M Nixon look like Mr Obama.....................

[Lonewolf_50]

Harry, comparing a paranoid crook to a naïve fool seems an odd juxtaposition, but I am drifting from the topic of the thread, which is that the P-8 seems to be alive and well despite attempts to distract/divert, and no the P-8 was never under threat.

[Heathrow Harry]

"The UK intends to procure 9 of the aircraft in total and had already ordered two. This brings the orders up to 5."

And we could do with 18-20.................

[chevvron]

DT seems keen on Boeing
Does he?
Is that why he wants to cancel the order for 2 new build 747s for AF1 duites which were ordered during the Obama era?

[sandiego89]

Does he?
Is that why he wants to cancel the order for 2 new build 747s for AF1 duites which were ordered during the Obama era?

Old news Chevron. President Trump already declared victory by getting the cost down on the AF1 program, and the Air Force issued the initial contract for the design for the conversion of the two airframes a few months ago.

[KenV]

Does he?
Is that why he wants to cancel the order for 2 new build 747s for AF1 duites which were ordered during the Obama era?For the record, Boeing received a contract from USAF to purchase two "white tail" 747-8I originally built for a Russian company. So the next Air Force Ones will have started out as Russian aircraft. USAF got a really sweet deal on the planes. But the real money is not in building the airframes. The real money will be in modifying them. Boeing is almost certainly going to get that deal. And hopefully it'll happen here in San Antonio. That's where the current VC-25s and E-4s undergo depot maintenance/mod.

[The Old Fat One]

...and no the P-8 was never under threat.

Perhaps the P8 remains on schedule might be a little less susceptible to the foibles of fate and circumstance ??? :):)

Given the UK departure down the road less traveled, I would have thought pretty much anything the Government spends its (our?) money on just now is under some sort of threat.

I hear on good authority the PM has swapped out the chocolate hobnobs for Lidl's own brand rich tea at cabinet meetings these days.

[Frostchamber]

Yes depending on your personal preferences, any given item on order is likely to be cancelled or, if already delivered, sold off, or in the unlikely event that we get to keep it, it will be ****e. And we're all going to hell in a handcart.

Perhaps we should simply post that on a repeating loop as the standard response for anyone trying to access the mil board.

[The Old Fat One]

get out of bed on the wrong side did we....or did you just miss the smileys?

:):):):):):):):):):):):):):):)

[Lonewolf_50]

Yes depending on your personal preferences, any given item on order is likely to be cancelled or, if already delivered, sold off, or in the unlikely event that we get to keep it, it will be ****e. And we're all going to hell in a handcart.

Perhaps we should simply post that on a repeating loop as the standard response for anyone trying to access the mil board. Over the course of my military career most of the stuff I flew was procured under minimum bid. :p We can all feel that one, can't we? :cool:

I am going to stick my neck out, TOFO, and stand by my original point, understanding all caveats regarding "we woke up today to a new political reality, and you won't be getting that kit that we've spent billions upon" such as Comanche or P-8's Predecessor as the "New MPA" ... the P-7/LRAACA (https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/aircraft/p-7.htm). (Had a few friends who worked on that program, and who were there when the axe fell).

The program was finally cancelled by the DAB at the end of 1990, on the grounds that it had fallen behind schedule, which called for the two prototypes to be delivered in 1992. Some 123 production P-7As had been planned. This decision left the Navy without a program to replace its aging P-3 aircraft. The Boeing Update IV avionics upgrade, an important element of the P-7A, was initially to have been applied to 109 earlier US Navy P-3Cs, but in 1992 this work was also cancelled. The British Nimrod MR2P was to have been replaced by the P-7A, but cancellation of that program forced the British Ministry of Defence to issue requirement SR(A)420 for a replacement maritime patrol aircraft (RMPA). P-8 seems to have gotten past the major stumbling blocks.

[Frostchamber]

get out of bed on the wrong side did we....or did you just miss the smileys?

:):):):):):):):):):):):):):):)


Both. Sometimes the Eeyore / Private Frazer tendency on here gets a bit overwhelming. I am also full of cold which doesn't help. Hope to be back to my usual zen self soon.

[The Old Fat One]

I am going to stick my neck out, TOFO, and stand by my original point

Emotionally I'm 100% with you; rationally probably about 75%. It's just that I've come to adopt a survivors mentality recently. Given the incomprehensible nature of the modern political world, it seems to me the only certainty is uncertainty and it is a good idea to condition one's self (both mentally and pragmatically) to expect the unexpected.

Maybe in my dotage I'm harping back to my boyscout days...Be Prepared...:)

I am also full of cold which doesn't help

Plenty of vitamin C...you'll be zenning it up in the gym in no time.;)

[Heathrow Harry]

On the bright side the P-8's didn't feature in any of the options for cuts detailed in yesterday's "Times"

Suggests a modicum of sense has crept in - or maybe it's just embarrassment at having to borrow cover from our allies............

[Biggus]

Didn't some seedcorn personnel originally go to Commonwealth countries like Canada, Australia and New Zealand, when the aim was to keep MPA skills alive rather than specifically learn how to operate the P-8?

If so, are they still there, did they come home, or have they been assimilated by the host nation?