FADEC engine control

[Len-ticular]

I am having to compile an instructor technical pilot briefing and was wondering if anyone out knew what the first Helicopter type was that was fitted with a FADEC (or single channel EECU) engine control was?

:confused:

[md 600 driver]

I think it maybe rotorway which may surprise some

[SilsoeSid]

A good way to start your instructor technical pilot briefing might be to say that no helicopter has FADEC and explain why not :ok:

[lowfat]

While some 365ns3,ec155 and 139 have partial FADEC with a manual backup throttle.I thought the 92 was full FADEC.

[hueyracer]

Way back then in the 1990´s, Eurocopter brought out their EC135´s with FADEC...

Looks like R&R were the first to work on a prototype:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FADEC

[OvertHawk]

Lowfat.

The EC155 has no manual throttles at all. It's FADEC with an engine switch - OFF / IDLE / FLY. No manual reversion. The only "backup" available is to use the FADEC from the other engine.

OH

[turboshaft]

S-76B (1984) - PT6B-36

[HLCPTR]

FADEC is one of those functions which is commonly misunderstood. In spite of what some manufacturer advertising brochures seem to say, many supposedly FADEC-equipped helicopters are not, which leads to this misunderstanding.
Real FADEC means that there is no secondary (back-up) engine control such as throttle levers (ECLs) or twist grips. All engine control is automatic, including failure modes.
Basically, if it has a single-channel EECU (or equivalent) it must have back-up controls since the engine fuel flow can only be controlled by the pilot in the event of a automatic control malfunction.

[tottigol]

Any engine control that has a reversion to manual or assisted manual is not completely FADEC.
Early Bell products were the 407 and the 430 with variants of the Allison (now RR) 250 (I believe the C-47 and C-40 respectively), they both had a reversion to fixed mode and via push button could be controlled via twist grip (single channel).
AW139 and AW119 use the PT-6, and are EEC rather than FADEC.
The AW189 with the T700 (or CT7) is fully dual channel FADEC.

[HLCPTR]

Exactly.

S76B is not FADEC since it has manual back-up.

I do not know of any PT-6 with FADEC but welcome information on one which is.

[obnoxio f*ckwit]

A good way to start your instructor technical pilot briefing might be to say that no helicopter has FADEC and explain why not :ok:

Why don't you give us the reason rather than veiled hints, so we can all benefit from your unbounded wisdom?

[Sevarg]

What about the Westland Wessex or Whirlwind for EECU?

[whoknows idont]

...partial FADEC...

Wouldn't that be PADEC? :)

[HLCPTR]

PADEC....

Pilot Actuated Destructive Engine Control. :ok:

[tottigol]

I know a few of those.:*

[SilsoeSid]

Why don't you give us the reason rather than veiled hints, so we can all benefit from your unbounded wisdom?

... or you could read the three posts prior to your contribution :rolleyes:

[lowfat]

think the EC175 is a full fadec pt6e

so im at about 3 helicopters with proper fadec... 155 s92 and ec175.

so im thinking the 155 is first true Fadec Helicopter

[tottigol]

Silso,
AW189, H175, S-92 are all two-channel full FADEC with no reversion to manual.
He read them and we explained the difference between single and dual channel FADEC control.
So, they do exist.
Now what's your explanation?

[casper64]

H145 Dual Channel full FADEC as well... no manual controls.

[SilsoeSid]

That's fine totti thanks, clearly I've misunderstood the FA part of the system, especially looking at the failure side of things.

FADEC Fail, close down engine?

[Ascend Charlie]

Just read out what FADEC stands for :
FULL AUTHORITY DIGITAL ENGINE CONTROL

Doesn't matter if it has a manual reversion mode or not, when it is operating it has full authority over what is going on. The extra definition of "not having manual reversion" is somebody's idea of what it perhaps SHOULD be.

[HLCPTR]

From various technical sources:

WHAT IS FADEC?
To be a true, 100%, Full Authority Digital Engine Control, there must not be any form of manual override available. This literally places full authority to the operating parameters of the engine in the hands of the computer. If a total FADEC failure occurs, the engine fails. If the engine is controlled digitally and electronically but allows for manual override, it is considered solely an Electronic Engine Control (EEC) or Electronic Control Unit (ECU). An EEC, though a component of a FADEC, is not by itself FADEC.

FADEC : LIMITATIONS
Pilot cannot override the FADEC Control. In the event of complete FADEC Failure pilot left with no other option than having to land safely with least performance.

With modern FADEC systems there are no mechanical control rods or mechanical reversions,

Still the system is not void of disadvantages. During critical conditions the system does not provide with manual override.

:ooh:

[[email protected]]

Absolutely agree HLCPTR - the introduction of FADEC to the Chinook resulted in some uncontrollable runaways that trashed the engine.. It's all very well handing full control to the computer but the software needs to be bug-free.

Sevarg - the Wessex had a fuel computer but that would just freeze in the event of a loss of signal - it could be recovered by resetting the speed select lever. The same computer and engine (Gnome) were used on the Sea King but that had a manual reversion (throttles in the roof). The Whirlwind - I think - had the same computer and that had a manual reversion as well. Definitely not FADEC.

[HLCPTR]

My (tongue in cheek) definition of PADEC was not related to computer malfunctions but to the occasional pilot "malfunction" in mishandling the manual back-up and exceeding an engine limitation in the process.

FADEC never gave me that opportunity. ;)

[[email protected]]

occasional pilot "malfunction" in mishandling the manual back-up and exceeding an engine limitation in the process.
yes, double manual in the Sea King provided plenty of opportunities for that:ok:

[soggyboxers]

crab,
The Wessex 2,4,5 and 60 all had a full authority analogue computer, with a double-datum over speed protection, which as you say froze not infrequently but could be reset. I think it was the same computer on the Whirlwind but when I was flying them in Nigeria we had so many computer problems we just flew them in manual the whole time. It took a little getting used to initially as, of course, there was no throttle correlator.

[HLCPTR]

How time flies.....

In those days, those contraptions were "computers". Today's techies would probably not recognize them as such. :8

Today's systems are a whole new story.

[low height bug]

The RTM322 as installed in the Merlin Mk1 onwards (c. 1994), WAH64, EH101-512 & -518 is controlled by dual channel FADEC with no manual reversion.

The CTS800N in Super Lynx & AW159 is also has dual channel FADEC with no manual reversion as does the GE CT7-8E in the AW101.

[[email protected]]

Soggy - yes, apart from the loss of Ng, NF or PTIT signals causing freezes, the cheekiest was low voltage which ISTR froze the computer below 18V but locked the throttle actuator - however, with voltages below about 12V, the throttle could vibrate open or closed.

We had several double computer freezes in the 80s caused by generator issues - which were quite exciting for the crews involved!

[serf]

Just read out what FADEC stands for :
FULL AUTHORITY DIGITAL ENGINE CONTROL

Doesn't matter if it has a manual reversion mode or not, when it is operating it has full authority over what is going on. The extra definition of "not having manual reversion" is somebody's idea of what it perhaps SHOULD be.

FADEC...e for engine, or electronic?

[[email protected]]

E for Engine - don't trust wiki implicitly, a google search throws up plenty of websites of companies that make them.

[serf]

E for Engine - don't trust wiki implicitly, a google search throws up plenty of websites of companies that make them.

Not Wiki Crab, my current Bell RFM has both E for engine and E for electronic in different sections!

[Ascend Charlie]

Well it's unlikely to be Electronic. You can't have Digital without electronics, so that is a bit like talking about a personal Identification PIN Number.

And a FADEC sure as heck doesn't control the electronics in my 76B, it controls the ENGINE.

[Nubian]

SilsoeSid,

A good way to start your instructor technical pilot briefing might be to say that no helicopter has FADEC and explain why not

What do you call it then?

The Turbomeca Arriel 2B1 in the AS350B3-2B1(B3+) and EC130B4 has dual channel FADEC and EBCAU (Electronic Backup Control Ancillary Unit) Same with the Arriel 2D in the later model AS350B3e/H125 and the EC130T2/H130

In these helicopters you have no input whatsoever on engine governing, only selecting Flight or Ground Idle after start.

HLCPTER,

If a total FADEC failure occurs, the engine fails I think not. (in the models above at least)

In case of full FADEC failure (dual channel) the EBCAU takes control automatically, keeping NF within preset value and you'll land as soon as practicable.

[[email protected]]

So that would imply there is a 3rd channel of FADEC, if the EBCAU is able to control the throttle valve electronically when both lanes of FADEC have failed then it seems to be a triplex rather than duplex system.

I presume the throttle response in EBCAU mode is significantly damped to encourage smooth collective inputs and avoid rapid Nf changes.

I think other systems would just freeze the throttle valve in the event of a double channel FADEC failure.

[Pablo332]

EC225 has only switches to play with.

[Maff]

SilsoeSid,



What do you call it then?

The Turbomeca Arriel 2B1 in the AS350B3-2B1(B3+) and EC130B4 has dual channel FADEC and EBCAU (Electronic Backup Control Ancillary Unit) Same with the Arriel 2D in the later model AS350B3e/H125 and the EC130T2/H130

In these helicopters you have no input whatsoever on engine governing, only selecting Flight or Ground Idle after start.

HLCPTER,

I think not. (in the models above at least)

In case of full FADEC failure (dual channel) the EBCAU takes control automatically, keeping NF within preset value and you'll land as soon as practicable.

And with the AS350B3e and EC130T2 the FADEC controls all. If you try to select ground idle in flight with the collective still 'up' it wont let you, it carries on (after a short blip) in flight mode. You then can not re-select ground idle, you have to shut the engine down in flight idle to reset it. You can only go to idle with the collective (almost) down first.

[albatross]

When on course on a full FADEC helicopter I asked if the dual FADECs were protected from EMP (Electro Magnetic Pulse) by some sort of Faraday Cage or other system.
Instructor did not know but thought it was a valid question and called the manufacturer to find out.
Answer: NO!

[[email protected]]

For all UK Mil aircraft there are HIRTA (High Intensity Radio Transmission Area) avoidances for the different bands of RF TX - each Release to Service will detail how susceptible the aircraft systems are to various signal strengths in those bands and mil maps are marked with the HIRTA avoids.

There are plenty of places in UK where you can't fly a mil helo due to the HIRTA restrictions but civilian helicopters can just blat through them.

It is systems like FADEC, AFCS and weapons (or even a hoist with an electrically operated cable cutter) that are susceptible.

[ukv1145]

All modern transport category rotorcraft certified under Part 29 are tested against stringent HIRF (High Intensity Radiated Field) criteria. Electrical harnesses are terminated in very specific ways to help reject rf induced interference. FADEC and other critical systems have detailed loom routing and separation requirements. The problems of HIRF are well understood and catered for, whether this includes the field strength/density generated during an EMP event I could not say.

[DunWinching]

Come back the Hawker Siddeley Dynamics mk1 / 1a fuel computer, FAAEC engine control. So much fun with double frozen throttle and no manual reversion. They don't know they're born nowadays...

[Evil Twin]

And with the AS350B3e and EC130T2 the FADEC controls all. If you try to select ground idle in flight with the collective still 'up' it wont let you, it carries on (after a short blip) in flight mode. You then can not re-select ground idle, you have to shut the engine down in flight idle to reset it. You can only go to idle with the collective (almost) down first.

Hmmm.. not sure about that. I recently conducted training in the B3e and for autorotations the throttle could be woulnd back to idle and then re-advanced for power termination. I know the "throttle" in the B3e/130 is actally a switch that selects from idle to flight and vise versa as opposed to an acutal throttle al la 206 etc. before I get flamed.

[megan]

FADEC...e for engine, or electronic?FAA definitions. e. Electronic Engine Control (EEC) System. The EEC system is the generic family of electrical/electronic engine control systems, including full authority digital engine controls, supervisory controls, and derivatives of these.

j. Full Authority Digital Engine Control (FADEC). FADEC is a control system in which the primary functions are provided electronically and the electronic unit has full-range authority over the engine power or thrust. FADEC systems have been certificated that employ either two identical channels to provide full-operational capability after failure of one channel or a single channel with a simplified electronic or hydromechanical back-up to provide an alternate operating mode.

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Advisory_Circular/33.28-1.pdf

[Vertical Freedom]

And with the AS350B3e and EC130T2 the FADEC controls all. If you try to select ground idle in flight with the collective still 'up' it wont let you, it carries on (after a short blip) in flight mode. You then can not re-select ground idle, you have to shut the engine down in flight idle to reset it. You can only go to idle with the collective (almost) down first. Bullsheet meter = 1,000% :eek: this is complete rubbish :ugh: I have practiced Autos in the 350B3, B3+, H125 & H130T2 & I know that when You close the throttle at MCP or even higher power setting the engine immediately throttles down to ground idle, this is at any speed, height or lever position. Returning immediately to flight idle the moment the throttle is reopened :ok:

Auto's could NOT be practiced if this were not the case :=

Happy & Healthy New Years :)

[Nubian]

Evil Twin & VF

I think MAFF was referring to what happens AFTER you have had a dual channel failure and when the EBCAU is operating.

I don't think you would continue to practise auto's once you've got both RED and AMBER GOV lights ON...:E

Ref Ch 3 & 7
Major GOV failure:
''collective pitch- avoid abrupt changes'' ''maintain Ng over 80% below 20000ft, 85% above ''make a powered approach'' ''avoid steep angle'' and once on the ground, ''collective down slowly'' ''Engine selector -OFF'' Engine MUST be shut down from FLIGHT, as the twist grip will not work.

The EBCAU will maintain Nf between 388 and 400 rpm

Happy New year!

[Evil Twin]

Indeed Nubian, that makes much more sense. Perhaps the original post was misleading.

[Pablo332]

Evil Twin & VF

I think MAFF was referring to what happens AFTER you have had a dual channel failure and when the EBCAU is operating.

I don't think you would continue to practise auto's once you've got both RED and AMBER GOV lights ON...:E

Ref Ch 3 & 7
Major GOV failure:
''collective pitch- avoid abrupt changes'' ''maintain Ng over 80% below 20000ft, 85% above ''make a powered approach'' ''avoid steep angle'' and once on the ground, ''collective down slowly'' ''Engine selector -OFF'' Engine MUST be shut down from FLIGHT, as the twist grip will not work.

The EBCAU will maintain Nf between 388 and 400 rpm

Happy New year!
Or if you are in a B3e it might not .
Not beyond the realms of possibility of it not working on a 3B despite no actual occurrences to date.