St. Athan Boy Entrants in the 1960s

[DonExAir]

I am looking for the actual start date and pass-out dates (dd/mm/yyyy) of the following entrys:
39th, 41st and 46th at Saint Athan. :ok:

[cliver029]

Can I suggest that you perhaps contact the secretary of the RAF BE ASS (Royal Air Force Boy Entrants Association 2016 (http://www.rafbeainfo.org.uk))
and he should be able to provide you with all those dates, also there is a facebook page for the RAF Boy Entrants community

[ian16th]

there is a facebook page for the RAF Boy Entrants community There is also a Yahoo Mailing list:https://groups.yahoo.com/neo/groups/beachat

All of the info, if required for a valid reason, is readily available.

[DonExAir]

Thanks Cliver and Ian, I will give it a try.

[DonExAir]

No joy it seems. I just want to fill in some blanks on my "new" website. Just 3 more entries - 39, 41 and 46th - but I would have to join so it will cost £5 per entry!! :(

[ian16th]

Don
Are you a former Boy Entrant?

If so, why not join the association?

[ImageGear]

At the outset I will say that I intend no offence or slur by this question.

When I arrived as a fitter at 38Gp Benson in '71, I met a much older SAC tech who knew exactly what work was required and performed it well. He also exhibited initiative in developing solutions to problems that arose with systems and also where resources could be directed to best effect.

After we had done a number of overseas detachments together he told me that he had come through the RAF Boy Entrant route and had never applied for, or been offered, higher rank, or a fitters course.

Naturally, I enquired about the reasons, and he said that of his entry, a very large proportion had been given the option, by a court, to sign on to a Service, or be committed to a borstal or other "house of correction". Consequently he was considered as "unfit for promotion".

I did not ask about his personal circumstances.

I have heard rumours that this policy had been established, but I always had some doubts about the reasons why this would be government policy, and whether it could be accommodated within the legal framework.

Does anyone have definitive knowledge of this practice?

Thanks,

Imagegear (Not a Boy Entrant)

[ricardian]

At the outset I will say that I intend no offence or slur by this question.

When I arrived as a fitter at 38Gp Benson in '71, I met a much older SAC tech who knew exactly what work was required and performed it well. He also exhibited initiative in developing solutions to problems that arose with systems and also where resources could be directed to best effect.

After we had done a number of overseas detachments together he told me that he had come through the RAF Boy Entrant route and had never applied for, or been offered, higher rank, or a fitters course.

Naturally, I enquired about the reasons, and he said that of his entry, a very large proportion had been given the option, by a court, to sign on to a Service, or be committed to a borstal or other "house of correction". Consequently he was considered as "unfit for promotion".

I did not ask about his personal circumstances.

I have heard rumours that this policy had been established, but I always had some doubts about the reasons why this would be government policy, and whether it could be accommodated within the legal framework.

Does anyone have definitive knowledge of this practice?

Thanks,

Imagegear (Not a Boy Entrant)
I was in the 38th entry of Boy Entrant telegraphists at RAF Cosford 1959-61 and never heard of anyone being given the choice of Borstal or Boy Entrant. Quite a few boys came from Dr Barnados or from broken homes, for some it was the first time that they had had a bed of their own. For others, like me, it was a means of escaping a small village in Derbyshire where there were few opportunities for travel or adventure

[oldpax]

34th entry air elect 1958/59,never heard of this either.

[Shack37]

40th Entry Instruments, never heard of it either. Apart from that a certain education level was required and quite a selection procedure to undergo.


This may have ben offered in earlier days for the Army.

[ImageGear]

Ahh, a little more research seems to suggest that there was no formal policy, simply that local Magistrates when dealing with petty crime might suggest that this could be an alternative that the boy and/or his parents may wish to consider. In which case the Magistrate might then be persuaded to limit or suspend the penalty and await the outcome.

The key was that the local Magistrate would know the local petty criminals and be an a position to mete out a much stiffer penalty if they came before him again.

Thanks,

Imagegear

[ian16th]

ImageGear,

This is a very old rumour, that as far as I can tell is totally without foundation.

I started with the 16th Entry of Radio Trades boys at Yatesbury in 1952, we did not have any such criminals in my time.

During Boy's service it was so common to get 'jankers' for perceived offences, that our service records were erased at the time of our passing out. So I cannot see pre-service data being kept and archived.

[ImageGear]

ian16th

There would have been no pre-service records pertaining any such criminal activity. As I said in my last, it was presented by the Magistrate as an "option" for consideration by the boy or parents to accept a period of service in the forces.

No records of this "option" being suggested would have been kept, and if military service was taken up, the boy would enter with a clean slate. (No names, no pack drill)

However, if the option was rejected, the likelihood of the boy reoffending meant that he would come before the same local Magistrate.

Imagegear (Old Capetonian) :ok:

[4mastacker]

There was mention of a particular BE entry being called 'Borstal Boys' when I joined as an apprentice at Hereford but I think that was a bit of folklore being passed on by the last BE entries. Any mention of 'Borstal Boys' seemed to disappear with the last BE entry (51st).

[oldmansquipper]

As an ex 46th St Athan B/E I can neither confirm nor deny an `official` policy existed.

...However - During ITS we were told by various people (senior entries, DIs, Station Barber) that we were lucky because the last of the `Borstal Entries` had graduated before we got there in May 62. They had, apparently, ruled the camp with an iron fist. We had several of our number (no names, no pack drill) who had been given a stark choice of Gaol or becoming a B/E by magistrates....Nonetheless, Senior Entry `perks` still remained right to the very end, I gather. Must have been hard for the 51st as they had no one to lord it over....

IIRC the hardening up process (AKA bullying?), was encouraged by all - including staff. I personally will never forget the misery inflicted on us by a certain sadistic PTI during entry swimming periods - nasty piece of work IMHO. On balance, however, I think it (B/E training) did me and most of my compatriots good. The Tech training was excellent and set us up for our future careers.

[Shack37]

...However - During ITS we were told by various people (senior entries, DIs, Station Barber) that we were lucky because the last of the `Borstal Entries` had graduated before we got there in May 62. They had, apparently, ruled the camp with an iron fist. We had several of our number (no names, no pack drill) who had been given a stark choice of Gaol or becoming a B/E by magistrates....Nonetheless, Senior Entry `perks` still remained right to the very end, I gather. Must have been hard for the 51st as they had no one to lord it over....



Squipper, as 40th I was in one of those entries that left before you got there and I heard no such rumours during my time there, May 1960 to November 1961. Nor were we or other entries present, 36, 37, 38 and 39 in the "Borstal Entries"

[oldmansquipper]

"Squipper, as 40th I was in one of those entries that left before you got there and I heard no such rumours during my time there, May 1960 to November 1961. Nor were we or other entries present, 36, 37, 38 and 39 in the "Borstal Entries"
"
Shack...It was just what we were told. Lots of myths & legends in that part of Wales perhaps?

Mind you - we were also told, when we moved into the huts down by the Runway threashold (After ITS), that an earlier entry had locked a bloke in one of the wooden wardrobes taken it onto a hut roof and chucked it into an EWS nearby as part of their Senior Entry right of passage...Clearly not true, but scared the sh*t out of me

Happy new year from a 4t6th rook :-)

[4mastacker]

..... Must have been hard for the 51st as they had no one to lord it over....

They had us new Admin Apprentices to exercise their "privileges" on.

[Shack37]

Shack...It was just what we were told. Lots of myths & legends in that part of Wales perhaps?


oldmansquipper

Indeed, on receiving our first "real" postings on graduation our senior DI said "Don´t be disappointed if it´s not where you wanted to go, lottsa guys met the girl of their dreams on their first operational station"

It didn´t happen to me but nevertheless I will never regret it, St. Mawgan, Cornwall, on Shacks, a Lady old and grey who I grew to love. She took me to many places.

[HarvestReaper]

As a 36th entry Air Elect BE I can not recall any chatter about ex borstal boys. Entryism was rife in 1959 complete with bull boys, beasting you name it. It became better after the 33rd entry graduated. The locker story of what happened in "K" lines has a ring of truth to it but it didn't happen in my time.

[ian16th]

The 1st time I heard the 'locker story', it was thrown out of a top floor window of Fulton Block at Cosford, circa 1953.

Like the 'Borstal Boys', I do believe that they are both what Snopes would call Urban Myth's.

[DonExAir]

Don
Are you a former Boy Entrant?

If so, why not join the association?

Yes Ian I am a former boy entrant but only want to find the dates (dd/mm/yyyy) of the 3 entries - 39th, 41st and 46th - at St. Athan to tidy up my webpage: HOME (http://43rdentryrafstathan.myfreesites.net/)
The cost to join would be £15 i.e. £5/entry and it would appear that that information may not be available anyway so I was informed. On hearing this I did send the entry details that I have to enlighten the association but received nothing in reply. I have to then rely on the generosity (and Memory!) of individual fellow ex "Boys" to assist my endeavour. I am sure that someone out there has the details and is willing to identify and support their own entry. :ok:

[Beancountercymru]

Regarding the borstal boys story Thursday's Times has an obituary for Great Train Robber Tommy Wisbey who was "arrested at 18 for breaking and entering and given the option of joining the Army or prison. He chose the services and became a boxing champion".

Not quite the RAF but seems to show the practice existed in 1948