Former Paras prosecuted for Murder in 1974 [Archive]

Shack37

16th Dec 2016, 16:53

The law is the law - you can't pick or choose

They've just done a guy 101 years old for sex crimes in the 70's

Presumably they think they have enough evidence to stand up in court - it has to be tough after so long but just because you serve in the Armed Forces doesn't mean you can get away with murder..................... or anything else

How can a guy being done for sex crimes be compared with a man serving his country and protecting local civilians from the cowards of the IRA and other paramilitaries?

From the BBC report:

Mr McCann's daughter Aine said that the failure of the the PSNI to reveal the identity of the police officers involved on the day was 'shameful': "It has not been possible to question the Special Branch version of events because, incredibly, the RUC then and the PSNI now, claim not to be aware of the identities of the two Special Branch officers that were following Joe that day."

So they think they have enough evidence without even being able to speak to pólice officers who were present at the scene? All they have is a 40 year old report written by these guys who now can´t be identified?
Meanwhile gangs of these murdering cowards are walking the streets of N.I. totally free.

Just a spotter

16th Dec 2016, 17:40

Just by way of a clarification. Joe McCann was a member of the Official IRA, not the Provisional IRA, and as such is unlikely to have had links with Sinn Féin. The OIRA enacted a ceasefire in 1972.

Even more than their more militarily active brethren in the Provo's, the OIRA where even more Marxist than the larger group.

Both groups along with their political wings are intent on turning Ireland into Cuba, just without the sunshine.

Joe McCann: Official IRA leader had sought a socialist Ireland (http://www.irishtimes.com/news/ireland/irish-news/joe-mccann-official-ira-leader-had-sought-a-socialist-ireland-1.2908683)

JAS

barnstormer1968

16th Dec 2016, 17:44

HH
The law isnt always the law and politicians DO pick and choose.
That is why a whole bunch of criminals who murdered civilians, police and soldiers often in front of their children were given lifetime 'get out of jail free' pardons by the UK government, while these two servicemen who have already been through TWO inquieries are now going to have a third ordeal!

Always a Sapper

16th Dec 2016, 18:07

Witch hunt, I fear they won't be getting anything near a fair trial.

This article (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/paratroopers-to-face-trial-over-belfast-killing-of-ira-chief-joe-mccann-35299537.html) in the Belfast Telegraph doesn't exactly describe McCann as the nice average neighbour you would want living within 50 miles of your house, and goes on to say he was regarded by the security forces as a dangerous terrorist.

It would be nice to see a similar effort and financial input being put into bringing the scum to trial who spent their time murdering innocent men, women, kids etc with car bombs, letter bombs, drive by shootings, a shotgun fired through the letter box, petrol bomb through the living room window etc. Not to forget the kneecapping and 1001 new ways to f*k up someone with a black n decker that they worked out.

A conviction and long jail term would be even nicer although that would be wishful thinking.

I think ARRSE may be slightly more vocal and less reserved in their feelings on the matter...

racedo

16th Dec 2016, 18:37

Its a difficult one but a simple question............

If you do something as a civilian should the law be different because you put on a Uniform.

Shack37

16th Dec 2016, 18:44

Its a difficult one but a simple question............

If you do something as a civilian should the law be different because you put on a Uniform.

No but it would appear to be so when it suits some politicians:yuk:

Cows getting bigger

16th Dec 2016, 19:05

Much that it sticks in my throat, I suspect one of the issues is that the soldiers were meant to be an arm of the law. if they acted outside the (very clear?) directions they had, then there is an argument that they should be punished.

Northern Ireland continues to be a funny place that no one really wants to take under their wing. Nothing much has changed in my 30+ years of kicking around The Village. :(

Basil

16th Dec 2016, 20:18

Its a difficult one but a simple question............

If you do something as a civilian should the law be different because you put on a Uniform.
Yes. Army personnel are not police officers.
The pollies knew this when they deployed them.

Pollies are always pollies; even the great WSC sought to distance himself from Bomber Command. Probably the most disgraceful thing he did in his life.

Hangarshuffle

16th Dec 2016, 20:26

Why are they being prosecuted now, what is it 42 years or 44 after the event?
People are rightly concerned that IRA and UVF have been convicted for murder but freed on license under the terms of the GFA. Bringing new prosecutions just doesn't make sense really, anymore.
We should be drawing a line under this; all this will bring is a reopening of old bitter memories for everyone.
In the UK we seem to be in cycle now of constantly investigating and prosecuting only Other Ranks to dates and actions selected in a most curious manner. But conversely Officers even at low level seem to be avoiding prosecution. No Senior officers ever seem to be prosecuted for the alleged actions of their men. That's the impression I take from the press. It must be having a deeply corrosive effect.
All of this will be massively damaging to execution of future operations, in fact it is utterly disastrous.
We aint arf making blunder after blunder these days.
I wouldn't join now, and if I was in would be actively seeking a way out. Make one mistake, or even be traced to be seen to have served in theatre in the future could lead to years of uncertainty.
I expect bomber pilots now, UAV operators now will be held up to account for their actions in many of the places they have bombed in the years ahead, mark my words well. You will be tossed aside when you have served you masters, its the British way.

Dougie M

16th Dec 2016, 20:27

Lonewolf_50

17th Dec 2016, 00:25

They've just done a guy 101 years old for sex crimes in the 70's

... they think they have enough evidence to stand up in court -
I saw what you did there, Harry.

racedo

17th Dec 2016, 01:12

The Good Friday agreement granted absolution to the Nationalists convicted or suspected of atrocities in a craven abrogation of the law. Such an amnesty should also be afforded to those attempting to maintain a ceasefire between the factions in Northern Ireland

Kind of one way viewpoint which is not factual.

GFA granted Parole to all irrespective of whom they represented.

This Licensed parole was revoked on occasion particularly in the case of Michael Stone who tried to bomb Stormont in 2006.

His actions at Milltown in attacking a funeral for 3 IRA killed in Gibraltar and killing 3 directly lead to the savage murders of Corporals Wood and Howes.
He previously planned to travel to London and kill Ken Livingstone until Special Branch acted.

GFA applies to ALL not just PIRA/INLA/UDA/UVF/RHC................ it includes British Army and RUC.

In unlikely event of this even getting to trial which is a very long shot and a conviction even a bigger long shot the conditions of the GFA apply.

sharpend

17th Dec 2016, 10:41

racedo, that is good to know. Though one should never hide behind 'I was just following orders', as many SS Nazi's did, I abhor the PC attitude of many in government who seek a witch hunt for their own political gain. IMHO, a previous PM is the worse culprit and should be tried for war crimes. As the saying goes 'He got us into this mess'.

Shack37

17th Dec 2016, 11:15

In unlikely event of this even getting to trial which is a very long shot and a conviction even a bigger long shot the conditions of the GFA apply.

I sincerely hope you are correct racedo but in the meantime these two guys have to go through all this crap again. I also hope they feel as confident of a good result as you do.
I am of a similar age and I know that I would feel absolutely destroyed if I was in their place.

sidewayspeak

17th Dec 2016, 11:15

And as no military aircraft, aircrew or backroom staff have any involvement in this, surely this subject does not live in this forum! Oh, Conservative government has also been in charge of the country for 6 1/2 years. Blame them

I think you will find many RAF Regt operated in NI... they are some of the backroom boys you refer to.

Geriaviator

17th Dec 2016, 11:37

Rudyard Kipling spoke for all Servicemen a century ago:
For it's Tommy this, an' Tommy that, an` "Chuck him out, the brute!"
But it's " Saviour of 'is country " when the guns begin to shoot.

It's great to see these injustices righted, but Plod isn't going far enough. What about Fighter Command's shoot-to-kill policy in 1940? There's a few old pilots still around, you know. As for Bomber Command and their raids, there must be a few more collars to feel even yet. I'm sure the brave Mr Shiner would be glad to lead his brigade of gallant lawyers into action at very reasonable cost, another £million or two should do it.
Mind how you go!

pr00ne

17th Dec 2016, 12:17

Geriaviator,

In that post you display just how much you don't understand about murder and the the incredible responsibility and pressure that Government places on those who it decides can kill legally.

Out Of Trim

17th Dec 2016, 12:20

I feel sorry for these two former soldiers. Once again our government goes out of it's way to go after it's own troops that they sent to act as armed policemen; without the training.

I thought the GFA was supposed to bury the wrong-doing by both sides and bring an end to the troubles. Re-opening these cases will only bring those events to the fore again.

I'm sure no good will come of it and further undermines our Service Personnel, betrayed yet again.

pr00ne

17th Dec 2016, 12:25

Out Of Trim

Undermine? Betrayed?

We are talking murder here.

And please put it in context. The enquiry and investigation is looking at each and every one of the 3,000 or so deaths attributed to the troubles.

And the GFA applies to everyone concerned, not just a specific few.

Burritto

17th Dec 2016, 12:46

I'm sure the fact that the Attorney General for Northern Ireland was picked for the job by Sinn Fein, who then chose the Director of Public Prosecutions, and that they both had Gerry Adams as a former client, had nothing to do with the decision to prosecute former members of the military.... :hmm:

Out Of Trim

17th Dec 2016, 13:03

Murder or Execution or Attempted Arrest of a known terrorist who was usually armed that went wrong. I don't know.

I wasn't there!

In a War, combatants on both sides get shot at. Just because this was a civil war doesn't change that sometime you have to defend yourself in battle. ie. Shoot first before they shoot you! The rules of engagement meant that these troops had one hand tied behind their back. Do you get shot while waiting until the ROE allow or take the shot in the hope you survive. A difficult call for anyone!

It seems strange that there was never an officer around when this was going on. Keeping there heads down probably.. REMFs would appear to apply.

Then 44 years later you may face prosecution by your own Country because an enemy that had already killed some of your colleagues had died. This is not murder in my opinion and should not be brought before a civil court. This stinks and I'm glad That neither I or .prOOne. were ever put in this position.

Just lucky I guess..

I wouldn't join again either, knowing that you would be hung out to dry by your own Government. Disloyalty by the Establishment like this will be remembered and will have far reaching effects in the future.

MACH2NUMBER

17th Dec 2016, 14:48

All this is quite unbelievable. Our society has gone stark raving mad.

KiloB

17th Dec 2016, 17:41

To really put this into perspective!
On the same day this was announced, an MP was advised he would NOT be prosecuted for offering to supply class A drugs to a couple of 'playmates' even though the evidence was on video and in the hands of the Police.
So much for justice being blind!?! Seems there is more than one set of criteria.

KB

mopardave

17th Dec 2016, 18:46

Hangarshuffle

17th Dec 2016, 18:57

We are on a slippery slope. More of the same, much more of these sort of prosecutions will be the new norm. Look at the intakes of barristers and lawyers and what ethnic groups they are from. We have a British Pakistani London mayor. In the future our senior law makers will be from ethnic groups that aren't White British but similar... perhaps they wont look favourably on what has gone on in the early 21st century in Asia minor. I'll play the race card right now and say things will get much worse for serving people because of the scale of recent violence abroad.
No one below the rank of WO will be exempt. It seems to be always directed at gun carriers and not the swagger stickers.
No one is above the law, but I imagine its confusing for under educated young Britons about what they supposed to do, how hard they have to fight.
Which will make things harder to recruit quality in the future.
I'm just spelling it out in case someone reads this of influence.

Old-Duffer

17th Dec 2016, 19:00

Elsewhere I have offered the view that when questioned, the accused say that it's all so long ago and they have been subject to such trauma since, due to their service, that they can't remember accurately the things of which they are accused and so how can they offer a defence.

Furthermore, and given the disposal of weapons, they should demand the retesting of weapons used in the incidents and also demand that whoever countersigned the log in which the weapons issues were recorded is a key witness to testify.

If the security of the evidence trail is as robust as some, there isn't a cat in hell's chance that a smart barrister won't drive a coach and horses through the prosecutions case.

Old Duffer

Hangarshuffle

17th Dec 2016, 19:01

Duffer they are going to be hung out to dry.

racedo

17th Dec 2016, 19:20

The claims of bias do not appear when you start looking at the details behind what is being looked at.

https://www.justiceinspectorates.gov.uk/hmic/news/releases/0182013-hmic-inspection-of-the-historical-enquiries-team/

Seems like there have been issues in relation to Historical Enquiry Team................"the HET treats state involvement cases differently as a matter of policy and this appears to be based on a misinterpretation of the law. This is entirely wrong, and has led to state involvement cases being reviewed with less rigour in some areas than non-state cases; and"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_Enquiries_Team#cite_note-22

It has looked at all sides

Man arrested over 1977 murder of Guisborough soldier on tour of duty during Northern Ireland troubles (From The Northern Echo) (http://www.thenorthernecho.co.uk/news/local/teesvalley/hartlepool/10631841.Man_released_on_bail_following_arrest_for_murder_of _Guisborough_soldier_in_1977/)

Northern Ireland: Man arrested over Kingsmill massacre of 10 Protestant workmen 40 years ago | The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/northern-ireland-man-arrested-over-kingsmill-massacre-of-10-protestant-workmen-40-years-ago-a7175206.html)

Veteran loyalist faces two murder charges connected to Troubles - BelfastTelegraph.co.uk (http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/veteran-loyalist-faces-two-murder-charges-connected-to-troubles-34774458.html)

As a result of killing of Joe McCann, OIRA shot 5 soldiers killing 3 in following day...........

Basil

18th Dec 2016, 11:51

Former paramilitaries, both republican and loyalist, were interviewed about their roles in the 40 years of violence which blighted Northern Ireland on the understanding that their accounts would not be made public until after their deaths.

But subsequent court rulings in the US have rendered that undertaking useless, as the PSNI were awarded custody of the tapes for investigative purposes.
Lesson:
No videos, no pictures and keep your mouth shut.

Situation:
Civillian shot by British soldier subsequently found to be unarmed.
Aye, a bit like Duggan was 'unarmed'.

There's always a reason; finding it may not be so easy.

Finningley Boy

18th Dec 2016, 13:04

IRA GUNS DOWN AIRMAN, INFANT DAUGHTER IN WEST GERMANY | Deseret News (http://www.deseretnews.com/article/69977/IRA-GUNS-DOWN-AIRMAN-INFANT-DAUGHTER-IN-WEST-GERMANY.html)

Lest anyone need an example of how weak the position is of those who are bringing this prosecution against the two British Soldiers, have a read of the attachment. I could clearly remember the incident at the time and knew I could find reference to it. Indeed, with the IRA immune to prosecution for all their past acts of violence, this really does leave a bitter taste in the mouth when the moral position and justification of their behaviour and that of the British Army are compared. I wonder how the 'families' and the 'lawyers' for 'victims' of the British Army rationalize continuing to pursue the British Soldiers but leave the amnesty for the IRA and INLA in tact?

FB

racedo

18th Dec 2016, 13:10

Civillian shot by British soldier subsequently found to be unarmed.

Reading further background on the case it appears any weapon he posessed was removed before he travelled to Belfast, they knew he was going to be there, evidence highlighted that depite him running away almost all the shell casings were found in close proximity to the body.
Sounds like RUC had someone inside OIRA which suggests more than a chance encounter.
Maybe an attempt to remove someone to ensure a source moves higher up the pecking order.

racedo

18th Dec 2016, 13:18

Lest anyone need an example of how weak the position is of those who are bringing this prosecution against the two British Soldiers, have a read of the attachment. I could clearly remember the incident at the time and knew I could find reference to it. Indeed, with the IRA immune to prosecution for all their past acts of violence, this really does leave a bitter taste in the mouth when the moral position and justification of their behaviour and that of the British Army are compared. I wonder how the 'families' and the 'lawyers' for 'victims' of the British Army rationalize continuing to pursue the British Soldiers but leave the amnesty for the IRA and INLA in tact?

This is PIRA, the guy killed was OIRA which ultimately moved into politics and form part of Labour party in Dublin today.

The HET is part of gettinng to the root of some of the killings, it is part of PSNI.
It involves the actions of all sides as it should.

Finningley Boy

18th Dec 2016, 14:58

racedo,

I'm not sure I follow your point, if HET are investigating the conduct of all sides, as it were, then they are surely wasting their time investigating either the PIRA, OIRA or any other Republican Terrorist/Resistance Group, because they are immune from prosecution. But they seem to be able to pursue British Soldiers whom I would have thought it was very difficult to prove that they acted with as little regard or consideration as the PIRA, OIRA, INLA or which ever other anti-British organization in Ulster.
I think anyway???
FB

Finningley Boy

18th Dec 2016, 15:15

racedo,

I must confess to posting in ignorance, I often find I don't have the time to read through every post in a thread from start to finish. But your comment above prompted me to do so, belatedly so I admit. I take on board your claim that all are subject to HETs investigations.

But I was sure that all previous convictions and illegal acts were subject to an amnesty as a result of the GFA.

One more point though, are any former or current members of any of the terrorist organizations connected with Northern Ireland being pursued with a view to possible trial for murder and terrorism?

Also, I notice that you view all acts of violence on the part of various republican groups as a reaction to provocation by acts of violence by either the UDA, UVF or Security Services and Army. Can it not be seen th other way round? rather than heaping responsibility on to the shoulders of the British Authorities or unionist terrorists?

This is the same mentality which sweepingly avoids a judgmental approach to the atrocities of Daesh, but instead blames the US and UK for their behaviour, as if Daesh are somehow all below the legal age of responsibility.

FB:)

But I'LL stand corrected

Pontius Navigator

18th Dec 2016, 15:31

In the context of this thread, one has to ask, how many people would not have given xx years to the Crown if they knew that what they might do would be found out and subjected to the law.
I think in this context I might have served but then risked Courts Martial for refusing to obey an order that might see me in a criminal court. We were briefed for one target and warned of the probability of collateral casualties. At that time, less than 20 years after WW 2 our leaders accepted civilian casualties in pursuit of military aims.

racedo

18th Dec 2016, 20:42

But I was sure that all previous convictions and illegal acts were subject to an amnesty as a result of the GFA.

Convictions only.
It wasn't an amnesty it was Parole under license as witnessed by my comment on Michael Stone who was recalled to serve out his term.

One more point though, are any former or current members of any of the terrorist organizations connected with Northern Ireland being pursued with a view to possible trial for murder and terrorism?

http://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/588334-former-paras-prosecuted-murder-1974-a-2.html#post9612702

Yup I posted that at Post 27 where gave 3 examples of arrests.

Also, I notice that you view all acts of violence on the part of various republican groups as a reaction to provocation by acts of violence by either the UDA, UVF or Security Services and Army. Can it not be seen th other way round? rather than heaping responsibility on to the shoulders of the British Authorities or unionist terrorists?

Nope
What I posted was consequences of actions.

In the case of McCann if it was a set up to eliminate him then the result was the shooting of 5 soldiers, 3 of whom died.
So if it was your son who was one of the 3, would you be happy to find that McCann killing was part of an operation to move a spy further up OIRA network and it was designed to eliminate McCann.

In relation to Stone, his actions in a cemetry are a direct cause of the 2 Corporals deaths. Loyalists were full of informers and he was a known killer (15-20 is guesstimate) so was he just "allowed" to get on with it with a blind eye turned.

I have used 2 examples where actions / reactions ultimately caused deaths of soldiers.

parabellum

19th Dec 2016, 00:08

I feel there are probably several top flight QCs in the UK who will be able to rip any prosecution case to shreds and will be happy to do so.

SASless

19th Dec 2016, 00:50

It must be a horrible feeling to find yourself facing Trial for Murder....while Terrorists who murdered are granted Parole/Amnesty for their crimes.

The situation in Northern Ireland always seemed so sad to me when it was going on....but this sad development just makes it so much more tragic.

The GFA should have been a blanket deal that should have ended prosecutions of any (everyone) who were involved in violence and served as the cornerstone for true reconciliation of all sides and groups.

Just This Once...

19th Dec 2016, 06:06

So if it was your son who was one of the 3, would you be happy to find that McCann killing was part of an operation to move a spy further up OIRA network and it was designed to eliminate McCann.

I have used 2 examples where actions / reactions ultimately caused deaths of soldiers.

If the McCann killing was part of an operation then why would they look to prosecute the soldiers for murder? If there was a crime then surely they would be prosecuting those who authorised and tasked such an operation?

I'm not sure you can ever say that any action caused a further death down the line.

Just This Once...

19th Dec 2016, 06:30

The late noble Lord Diplock:

"The jury … should remind themselves that the postulated balancing of risk against risk, harm against harm, by the reasonable man is not undertaken in the calm, analytical atmosphere of the court-room after counsel with the benefit of hindsight have expounded at length the reasons for and against the kind and degree of force that was used by the accused: but in the brief second or two which the accused had to decide whether to shoot or not and under all the stresses to which he was exposed."

Heathrow Harry

19th Dec 2016, 09:43

ah yes - the man who brought in jury-less courts............

racedo

19th Dec 2016, 10:04

It must be a horrible feeling to find yourself facing Trial for Murder....while Terrorists who murdered are granted Parole/Amnesty for their crimes.

Agree but people granted Parole after conviction.

The situation in Northern Ireland always seemed so sad to me when it was going on....but this sad development just makes it so much more tragic.

The GFA should have been a blanket deal that should have ended prosecutions of any (everyone) who were involved in violence and served as the cornerstone for true reconciliation of all sides and groups.

HET was a PSNI led operation looking at every death that has occurred. They sought access to the Boston records for this purpose fully supported by UK Government.
As posted previously it has included arrests of Republican and Loyalists for their actions plus looked at Security forces actions.
This is looking at reconciliation because it is examing all sides not just saying it happened and we won't look at it.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2011/mar/28/ministry-defence-apology-majella-ohare
The above story is of a 12 year old girl, it took 35 years to get an apology.

Basil

19th Dec 2016, 15:08

From the Guardian report:
When you send trained killers out to use firearms in a warzone, you can never feel safe.
'trained killers': Correct! That's what military people do.
'warzone': Even the girl's mother accepts that there was a war going on.

teeteringhead

19th Dec 2016, 16:05

One has one's doubts about PSNI (ne RUC). The only Superintendants of Police in the UK who don't wear a crown as their rank badge are within the PSNI; they wear a single star.

For why? The crown is offensive to republicans! WTF!!! So that's well-balanced and even handed then.........

And I'm sure the HET investigations will be equally so........

c130jbloke

19th Dec 2016, 16:11

Is it now reasonable for serving personnel to request being issued with a Comfort Letter based on allowed actions being followed within stated RoE´s prior to being deployed on Ops ?

I suspect that the political types ( JM being the exception ) have no idea of the damage this is causing to the fabric of our military ethos, and in the case of the Labour Party probably don´t give a toss. With this insanity spreading, how long before somebody starts looking at the actions of various people during the Falklands conflict, GW 1, etc ?

As HMG seems to have no interest in protecting veterans, is now the time for personnel to start to take reasonable grounds to protect themselves from any future examination of their actions during times of conflict ?

Bigbux

19th Dec 2016, 19:55

Proon

We are talking murder here.

Are we?

So you know without a shadow of doubt that these 2 particular men went on patrol that day with the pre-meditated intention of killing people whom they knew were not posing a threat to them?

This has become so much a piece of partisan folklore that the 2 former soldiers cannot hope to get a fair trial.

Politely_amused

20th Dec 2016, 18:06

A petition has been started at:

https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/175138

With those such as Sir Gerald Howarth already raising concerns, it is hoped that this will gain some traction:

https://www.gerald4aldershot.org.uk/news/statement-prosecution-former-soldiers-who-served-northern-ireland

What use it may do is another matter...

Training Risky

21st Dec 2016, 13:03

I know it's only Wikipedia, but if I am wrong, someone with more of a legal brain let me know:

Both the British and Irish governments committed to the early release of prisoners serving sentences in connection with the activities of paramilitary groups, provided that those groups continued to maintain "a complete and unequivocal ceasefire". Cases were reviewed individually.[10] There was no amnesty for crimes which had not been prosecuted.

Our legal system is not free of political bias, the decision or not to prosecute anyone in cases like this is at the whim of Sinn Fein and our 'Government' desperate to throw soldiers to the wolves for political expediency.

Only the naive amongst us would sit comfortably and say this is a good, free and just decision.

racedo

21st Dec 2016, 22:27

There was no amnesty for crimes which had not been prosecuted.

Number of service personnel in jail in 1998 convicted for something committed in NI was I believe Zero.

Therefore not possible to have a release of people who were never convicted of anything.

I believe it was demanded that no such clause be included for Security forces because the arguement was that you are then equating Security forces with Terrorists.

Afraid that the claim of Politcial Expediency doesn't hold up because were that the case then Soldiers involved in Bloody Sunday would have been on trial as well as a few more deemed controverisal incidents from all sides.
Sinn Fein is not pulling together any information on these cases................ it is PSNI.

There have been Republicans and Loyalists also arrested and charged with killings since GFA.................. so no amnesty for anybody not convicted.

The fact there have been so few cases is surprising.
I would let the law take its course rather than the outrage bus as soon as someone is arrested.
As said previously I doubt it will get to court or secure a conviction.

Heathrow Harry

22nd Dec 2016, 11:45

"
Quote:
We are talking murder here.
Are we?

So you know without a shadow of doubt that these 2 particular men went on patrol that day with the pre-meditated intention of killing people whom they knew were not posing a threat to them?"

No - we're not saying they murdered anyone - that's why you have trial and a jury..... and you don't have to believe without a shadow of doubt - it has to be balance of probabliities to bring a case

"The prosecutor must first decide whether or not there is enough evidence against the defendant for a realistic prospect of conviction. This means that the magistrates or jury are more likely than not to convict the defendant of the charge. If there is not a realistic prospect of conviction, the case must not go ahead, no matter how important or serious it may be.
It is the duty of every Crown Prosecutor to make sure that the right person is prosecuted for the right offence. In doing so, Crown Prosecutors must always act in the interests of justice and not only for the purpose of obtaining a conviction."

Finningley Boy

22nd Dec 2016, 19:14

Nope
What I posted was consequences of actions.

In the case of McCann if it was a set up to eliminate him then the result was the shooting of 5 soldiers, 3 of whom died.
So if it was your son who was one of the 3, would you be happy to find that McCann killing was part of an operation to move a spy further up OIRA network and it was designed to eliminate McCann.

In relation to Stone, his actions in a cemetry are a direct cause of the 2 Corporals deaths. Loyalists were full of informers and he was a known killer (15-20 is guesstimate) so was he just "allowed" to get on with it with a blind eye turned.

I have used 2 examples where actions / reactions ultimately caused deaths of soldiers.

racedo

So are you saying that all action by the British Army was unjustified but that the actions of the PIRA, INLA and any other kind of IRA, were justified as retaliation for the wholly illegal actions(every shot fired) of the British Army?

FB:)

racedo

22nd Dec 2016, 19:59

racedo

So are you saying that all action by the British Army was unjustified but that the actions of the PIRA, INLA and any other kind of IRA, were justified as retaliation for the wholly illegal actions(every shot fired) of the British Army?

FBhttp://cdn.pprune.org/images/smilies/smile.gif

You bloody well know I am not saying that.

What I posted was that as a result of certain actions it caused a lot more lives to be lost...............later deaths were a reaction.

OMG Itz Fulovstarz

22nd Dec 2016, 20:22

All,

Forgive my intrusion from the civil side, I've been following this thread for a while and just wish to clarify something.

Mr Heathrow Harry -

I just want to clarify something in your last post.

The Public Prosecution Service (PPS - Northern Irelands equivalent of the Crown Prosecution Service) will subject any case received by them for consideration for two tests:-

1. Evidential test - is there sufficient evidence?
2. Public Interest test - is it in the public interest to prosecute?

As stated, there has to be sufficient evidence first of all.

Your statement "and you don't have to believe without a shadow of doubt" needs clarifying - do you mean in the decision to bring a case? Or to convict?

There is a certain percentage mark used by the PPS to determine if a case proceeds to court, if it does not reach this mark it means there is no realistic prospect of conviction.

In this instance the PPS, having considered the evidential and public interest tests, must have come to the conclusion that there is a case to answer.

This case, if it follows standard procedure in Northern Ireland, will first be listed in a Magistrates Court. Somewhere along the line a Preliminary Enquiry (P.E.) will be held in this court to determine if there is a prima facie case or not. It is determined that there is, the case will then be transferred to Crown Court.

The burden of proof in both Magistrates and Crown Courts is "beyond all reasonable doubt" - you VERY much have to believe a defendant is guilty before they can be convicted; if there is a reasonable doubt in the eyes of the jury, then the defendant cannot be convicted.

Only Civil Courts, use the burden of proof of "balance of probabilities." Typically, this could refer to a civil claim arising from a road traffic collision, in which case a Court could state that Party "A" was 35% to blame for the RTC, and Party "B" was 65% to blame for the RTC and apportion the compensation, or whatever, accordingly.

Criminal Courts only use "beyond all reasonable doubt" - which is much, much, higher.

Basically, what I am saying is that the show is not over until the slightly rotund lady sings....

While emotions may be running high, it is a time for cool minds and strong hearts - and for the MOD to engage some competent QC's.

All the best.

P.S. You had mentioned Lord Ziplock and "Diplock" Courts rather disparagingly a few posts back.

This needs to be seen in perspective - although "Diplock" Courts are now generally regarded as being discredited, they were used in a time and place when literally hundreds of people were being killed Northern Ireland EVERY year.

"Diplock" system was brought in to stop terrorists interferring, intimidating or killing (yes, killing) the jurors involved in terrorist cases.

Rant over!

MACH2NUMBER

22nd Dec 2016, 20:58

Dear OMG,
I would not wish to challenge your learned forensic and legal analysis from the civil side. From an ex-military perspective, I did believe the law was set up to provide justice. I firmly believe justice should also be fair. What is happening now appears to be neither just nor fair.

OMG Itz Fulovstarz

22nd Dec 2016, 21:30

Mr. Mach2number,

I hope you are under the impression that I am a member of the Legal professional?? I have never been so insulted in all my live.......

If you are interested, I was a cop over here for 30 years. Nothing in Northern Ireland is ever straight forward, nor is anything back and white.....

We always had a saying - it is better to have 12 trying you, than 6 carrying you.

All the best.

MACH2NUMBER

22nd Dec 2016, 21:47

OMG,
I salute your bravery in police work in NI; however the gist of my last post remains unanswered - just or fair?
Happy Xmas.

OMG Itz Fulovstarz

23rd Dec 2016, 00:57

Mr Mach2number,

Is it just? - only if/when the jury reaches a verdict will we know if justice has been done.
Is it fair? - No.

You might not like the first answer, but the problem is the only people who know exactly what happened during this incident are the people who were there, or the people who investigated it. Rest assured, if you are not in those two groups, you will not know the full story.

What is justice anyway? In the N.I. context, I'm not sure I know any longer. I hope with all my heart that the authorities are investigating the murders of innocent civilians, soldiers and police with the same focus as this incident. We demand it.

After the Good Friday Agreement, we produced a pin badge. It was a small outline badge of Northern Ireland split into three horizontal bands in the colours red, green and black - the colours of the RUC (George Cross). The top band had the number 302 - the number of our dead. The middle band had the number 211- the number of unsolved murders of our dead colleagues. The lower band had the question "Why?"

We are still waiting for an answer to that question.

We will not be lectured on "justice" by anyone.

As to fairness, nothing in N.I. was ever fair. The good guys played by the rules and the bad guys didn't. Unfortunately this means that the good guys, who keep records of who did what, are easy targets for legal action, because of those records. The bad guys didn't keep records.

When I joined I was an idealist, in many ways I still am. I believed then, as I do now, that no-one is above the law. The law must be applied equally to all, without fear or favour.

Very few people in the U.K. are permitted to carry loaded firearms in a public place, and use them to take another persons life, if the circumstances warrant it. As the saying goes, with power, comes responsibility. Pull the trigger, and you will be investigated to the 'n'th level. That's the way it has to be, if you want to live in a democracy.

Anyway, the crux of the matter is this:-

1. What level of investigation took place into the incident at the time?
2. No further action was taken at that stage, why?
3. What new evidence or information came forward during the HET re-investigation?
4. Why was prosecution directed on this occasion?

Re. question 4, was prosecution directed as a result of new evidence. If not, then I would contend that it supports the view that this was directed as an act of political appeasement. Unfortunately, we will only know the answers to these questions if/when the matter comes before a Court, which is of no comfort to the Paratroopers concerned.

I could go on longer, but I would only get angry. Not at you Mr. Mach2number, but at the continued injustice.....

We fought for peace, but not peace like this.

MACH2NUMBER

23rd Dec 2016, 07:21

OMG,
Many thanks for your excellent clarification.

AnglianAV8R

23rd Dec 2016, 10:10

OMG,
Total respect to you, particularly in regard to your last sentence.

From somebody who has an earlier pin badge, depicting a green uniformed RUC Constable in a wheelchair.

May your Christmas be peaceful.

Geriaviator

23rd Dec 2016, 11:07

OMG:
Thank you for your excellent post which sums up our sad situation. I too lived through the Troubles from the first dark day, I too had (civilian) friends murdered, and I too will get angry if I dwell more upon it so I had better not mention the money-grubbing lawyers wallowing in each new inquiry, prosecution and appeal. Saville Inquiry £195 million and they're still bitching about it ...

Out Of Trim

23rd Dec 2016, 12:47

I'm a little concerned about the the make-up of NI Juries in this case if it comes to Court.

Do they select 6 Catholic and 6 Protestant? Or just 12 random members of the public or what?

Geriaviator

23rd Dec 2016, 13:58

Out of Trim:
Jurors are chosen at random and subject to the usual challenge by counsel. However, some advise the wearing of an Orange Widows' Fund badge if jury-summoned to a trial with Republican defendants, while the other side should sport a Fainne, or gold circular badge denoting an Irish speaker and therefore a Republican sympathiser, if summoned to a 'loyalist' trial. Either way one is challenged and avoids being penned up maybe for weeks.

Finningley Boy

23rd Dec 2016, 14:15

Quote:

racedo

So are you saying that all action by the British Army was unjustified but that the actions of the PIRA, INLA and any other kind of IRA, were justified as retaliation for the wholly illegal actions(every shot fired) of the British Army?

FB
You bloody well know I am not saying that.

What I posted was that as a result of certain actions it caused a lot more lives to be lost...............later deaths were a reaction.

That's just what I thought you were saying, you are indeed justifying, if in selected instances, the actions of a Marxist Terror Group. In other words , as I have understood it, the British Army are responsible for the actions, certain actions, of a terrorist organization. Do the terrorists carry any responsibility for their own actions or can they be justified simply as a reaction, bearing in mind the British Soldiers were seen as a legitimate target by all the republican elements. Personally, I would say any action against the IRA or INLA was justified, the whole episode is laced with acts of brutal violence by the IRA and attempts by the Security Forces to run them to earth, to start picking instances where the balance of right and wrong tipped in there favour goes a long way to giving them a legitimate standing after all.

FB

OMG Itz Fulovstarz

23rd Dec 2016, 14:55

Mr. Mach2number,

Thank you for your understanding.

Mr. AnglianAV8R,

The pin badge you have is that of the RUC DPOA (Disabled Police Officers Association). It has since been renamed DPOA NI, to incorporate PSNI victims. It still remains the one association who never hope to join....

Thank you for your support for this organisation, it means a lot.

Mr Geriaviator,

Seems we're singing from the same hymn sheet. Of course, the latest "Hot Potato" concerns Inquests, the main beneficiaries of which will be....... need I say more?

Mr Out-of-trim,

As stated by Mr. Geriaviator, jurors are chosen from random from the electoral list. A reasonably sized pool will be summoned to appear at a Crown Court on a specific date, from which 12 will be selected for each case. They have no idea which case they will be allocated to before attending and being selected for that case.

Both the prosecution and the defence can object to any juror, it is up to the Judge to approve this objection. So in a very real sense, the make up of the jury is agreed by the defence and the prosecution together.

The main problem with juries in N.I. are people not answering their summons to attend court, preferring to pay the £1000 fine for non-attendance. This in itself helps to ensure that the jurors who do actually attend are the law-abiding and upright members of society - in theory anyway.

A closing point I would like to make concerns the PSNI. There is still an ongoing terrorist campaign in N.I., you folks in G.B. may never hear of it on the news; it may not make the news over here (there are valid reasons for this) The PSNI, along with a couple of other "agencies", have done some truly exception work in saving lives. Unfortunately, sooner of later, some one, somewhere, will run out of luck or skill and become another terrorist victim.

They, like Police officers in 'contested' areas everywhere, have to experience horrors on a daily basis, so you don't have to.

In my view, there is no PSNI "witchhunt" against the military. The PSNI is the most heavily scrutinised Police service in the world, being answerable to our local Policing Board, as well as other statutory bodies such as HMIC and PONI, and any number of civil & human rights groups, any or all of which will cry "Foul!" at the slightest sign of a "witchhunt."

It is a statement of fact that the work of HET was criticised by some of the above groups for being too lenient on former military personnel.......

Anyway, I wish a Merry Christmas to all, and hope that your 2017 will be peaceful and prosperous.

MACH2NUMBER

23rd Dec 2016, 19:08

OMG,
Just a sad conclusion which many will have already made. The logical outcome of the NI and Iraq situation is that we will soon have no recruits for our armed forces.
We will soon be completely defenceless.

Just This Once...

23rd Dec 2016, 20:24

It has never been a military decision to deploy armed troops onto their own precious land, it has only ever been a political one. To even attempt a prosecution in such circumstances undermines the trust that the military must have in the very people they serve.

If the State wishes to pursue those in political power who made the decisions to deploy UK Armed Forces in NI, on the basis that shootings would be inevitable, then it should do so. Prosecuting the individuals who were the instrument of political power is a great injustice and a betrayal.

I have no doubt with a sufficient passage of time any military action could be viewed as unlawful. But the means, motive and opportunity were provided by the State, not the soldiers involved. The rest is down to individual judgement in the most testing of circumstances.

Finningley Boy

23rd Dec 2016, 23:40

Just This once,

your assessment at post 75 succinctly places opinion perfectly.

Well said.

Note Tony Blair and all the Historic investigation units.

FB

jonw66

24th Dec 2016, 00:44

OMG
It's a pleasure to converse with someone who served at the sharp end.
There are quite a few on here who spent time out there during the troubles.
We tend not to talk much about it for obvious reasons.
Somebody not using a phone may connect you to the SHFNI stories thread which tells many stories which reflect our time out there.
Best regards for the season sir.

Robert Cooper

24th Dec 2016, 04:59

JTO
An excellent description of the sad situation we are in.

Bob C

Heathrow Harry

24th Dec 2016, 08:48

"Is it just? - only if/when the jury reaches a verdict will we know if justice has been done.
Is it fair? - No.

You might not like the first answer, but the problem is the only people who know exactly what happened during this incident are the people who were there, or the people who investigated it. Rest assured, if you are not in those two groups, you will not know the full story."

I agree

I'm uneasy about any prospecution for anything so long after the event - I've served on juries and I've also first hand knowledge of how witness's see totally different things when interviewed 30 minutes after an event. After 40 years...

On the other hand some things need to be investigated and/or prosecuted however old - Eichmann, Saville...............

At the end of the day we have to put our trust in the law otherwise we have no compass at all. I suspect it will be very hard to get a conviction in this case unless they have a confession - but that doesn't mean it shouldn't go ahead....

OMG Itz Fulovstarz

24th Dec 2016, 14:04

Mr. Mach2number,

I agree totally. Once a perception has been formed in the mind, in is practically impossible the change it and so it is in this case, whatever the outcome of any trial. The damage has been done.

Re. your comment about the logical outcome, again I agree totally. I had to have a chat with my darling daughter when she stated she wanted to join the Police; I have banned both kids from having anything to do with Police, Army or Marines (anything which involves close contact with an enemy). How can any one of these organisations expect to recruit the "brightest and best" when the Government of the day is going to put you in harms way, with a high probability of death or life changing injury, and then prosecute you for a decision made in literally milli-seconds?

Heathrow Harry-

I also share your unease. Much of it will depend on the skill, or otherwise, of the interviewing officer. It will also spend on the witness themselves.

If I can give you a personal example, I'll tell you about my first terrorist incident. A Saturday morning in July 1972 in Belfast city centre. My father and I had just crossed a road at a 4-ways junction, when I became vaguely aware of something going on over my right shoulder. I remember stopping, turning round and seeing a car parked on the other side of the street. I saw an unarmed soldier (I'm assuming it was an ATO) running up to the car and stopping approx. 5 metres way from it. I then saw grey smoke start to fill the interior of the car and someone shout "Run!" which we did.

As far as I was concerned that was the end of the matter, we got the bus home and the incident was never discussed until November last year when my father happened to mention that the car bomb had detonated. Subsequent checking by me also showed that the device had indeed detonated as we were running, yet I have absolutely no recollection of either the sound, sight or heat of the detonation, nor of any destruction of the building beside the device. I remember none of that, zero. Totally blanked it.

I was 7 at the time. The car was (as I later measured) 23 metres away from me when I first saw it. Apart from showing me (1) the importance of getting out of line-of-sight, and (2) if you see an ATO running, run faster, it shows how unreliable the human mind can be.

This happened in the same timeframe as the McCann shooting. If I can totally blank an explosion, how can anyone expect anyone else to recall EVERY single detail of a shooting?

I have always stated that no-one should be above the law, but yet the reality of the situation seems to suggest that if you reach the top hierarchy of any organisation, you seem to become immune. We have the heads of terrorist organisations who have never been prosecuted for anything, we have an Ex-Prime Minister who gets us into the 'Mother Of All Clusterf**ks', not once, but twice (well 3 times, if you include the GFA) without censure. Why do we let this happen? The law should be applied equally......

Jonw66,

Thank you for your, and your colleagues, support over the years. Nothing lifted the spirit more when lying in a cold, wet, field than the sound of rotors.

Most my of work at that time was in a border town, although did manage to get a reasonable number of flights with 72 Sqn Wessex & 655 Sqn AAC Lynx's doing "Eagles" and 665 Sqn Gazelles doing "Finches", and a couple of flights in a 60 Sqn Wessex and 240 OCU Puma in England when a small group of us were sent over there to train with our army colleagues.

Never got the chance to say thanks, so here it is now - THANKS!

Anyway, still wishing all a Merry Christmas!
Now returning to the Dark Side, that is the civilian forum....

Shack37

24th Dec 2016, 15:29

OMG,
I hope your posts continue to be read by many more Pruners for the wisdom, understanding and knowledge they contain of what happened and continues to happen in Northern Ireland. Most of all I thank you for your service.

I was born and brought up in East Belfast before leaving at 16 y/o to join the RAF in 1960 so I had already seen some violence in the 50´s episode.

I was based at RAF Ballykelly when the troops first arrived to assist the RUC in protecting the marches back then. Some were stationed on our base and I saw how they were first welcomed with open arms and cups of tea on street corners. It was not long however before they began returning to BK bandaged or with arms in slings etc from injuries caused by bricks and bottles thrown at them by the protectees and this was just the beginning.

I read the local Belfast Telegraph daily online and have a brother still there so I am aware that, as you said, the "show" goes on. That same brother was a pólice officer in Birmingham at the time of the pub bombings there and was involved in the rescue efforts at the bars involved.

Good luck to you and yours, have a peaceful Christmas and 2017.

Bigbux

24th Dec 2016, 15:44

At the end of the day we have to put our trust in the law otherwise we have no compass at all.

So wouldn't it be fairer to the ex-soldiers involved not to start calling the killings "murder"?

I remember the hullabaloo over the Shoreham crash when poster began attributing blame before the findings of the AIB were released. Don't these 2 gentlemen deserve the same consideration?

jonw66

24th Dec 2016, 16:44

OMG
Thanks for your contribution and gratitude. There are many reading this who deserve your thanks far more than me I was but a kid of an engineer.
Wishing you all the best for Christmas and new year sir.
Regards
John

OMG Itz Fulovstarz

24th Dec 2016, 18:55

Shack37,

Nice to see we're from the same part of the world. Have always been fond of BK, but never had to avoid Ben Twitch in a Shack in IMC!

Bigbux,

You are correct; no solicitor/barrister worth their salt would entertain the use of the word "murder" being put towards their client during a Police interview. They are fine with "Did you kill 'X'"?, but you do not use the 'M' word.

John/Jonw66,

Found the SHFNI thread, excellent stuff. Things seemed so much simpler then....

You write "I was but a kid of an engineer" - you sell yourself short sir. The one thing I didn't say in my earlier post is that when you are in a cold, wet, field there is nothing worse than a u/s cab.....

Merry Christmas & HNY to you and yours.

jonw66

24th Dec 2016, 20:17

We just need a thumbs up button here.
All the best friend

Dougie M

31st Dec 2016, 14:43

It has come to this. A Chelsea Pensioner was today questioned for four hours by officers of the NIPS over an incident 45 years ago. Where is the justice in this? What sort of society do we serve for Chri$$ake! Absolutely flaming disgusted. Shame on all those pursuing this debacle.

Heathrow Harry

31st Dec 2016, 14:59

There is no statute of limitations on investigating a murder and neither should there be

why being a Chelsea Pensioner makes a difference is also beyond me

Just This Once...

31st Dec 2016, 16:54

There is no investigation to speak of. The same records that were used at the time to demonstrate that these incidents were lawful killings are now being used against individual soldiers. All that has happened is the passage of time and a reimagining of the past to cast such killings as unlawful, thus allowing the records and testimony of the soldiers involved to be used against them.

These deaths haven't suddenly come to light and neither have the names of the servicemen involved. About the only mystery remaining is the actions of the opposing terrorists, but I doubt any detailed records will be provided by them.

If there is any blame (and it is a very big if) the responsibility lies with the State. These servicemen did not choose to arm themselves or deploy in such difficult circumstances. They just happened to be the ones at that scene, on that day, in those circumstances, making the most difficult of decisions.

They served their country well and they deserve our unflinching support now and forever.

Shack37

31st Dec 2016, 17:30

There is no statute of limitations on investigating a murder and neither should there be
According this, in the guys own words of course, it was a firefight and the terrorist he opened fire on was attacking fellow Marines. Sincé when is defending yourself and colleagues when under attack murder? FFS.
As he commented, why don´t they start prosecuting WW2 veterans before the remaining few die off?
When are they going to investigate the likes of Adams and Maguinness? Oh no, they´re politicians now of course.

Chelsea Pensioner tells of his despair at being accused of murdering IRA gunman almost 45 years ago (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/12/31/chelsea-pensioner-tells-despair-accused-murdering-ira-gunman/)

Heathrow Harry

1st Jan 2017, 10:07

" in the guys own words of course" says it all....................

Quite a few well known "facts" have proved to be .........different ........ when re-investigated a few years later - I'm sure we can all remember the main ones

Shack37

1st Jan 2017, 21:22

Quite a few well known "facts" have proved to be .........different ........ when re-investigated a few years later - I'm sure we can all remember the main ones

Are they now going to deny that the Marines were fired on?

I ask again, when are the real murderers going to be investigated properly?
1. Maguinness for his history as an IRA commander in Londonderry:
2. Adams re the accusations of being boss of the gang responsable for the disappearances, including the kidnap, torture and subsequent murder of Mrs. Jean McConnel who the cowards later admitted was innocent. Her only crime being a protestant in a catholic área living with her catholic husband.

vascodegama

2nd Jan 2017, 07:46

This whole episode reminds me of the "Breaker Morant" story, although the prosecution was at a slightly higher level (JO rather than OR), those really responsible got clean away.

Heathrow Harry

2nd Jan 2017, 08:18

Shack - I'd love to see former senior members of the IRA stand trial but you have to face up to it - it's not going to happen.

To bring about an end to the fighting and killing we had to cut a deal with men and women who had blood up to their elbows. Morally it is repugnant but practically it was the only way. We've done it before (Kenya, Israel, Cyprus.....) and others have done it elsewhere (think Columbia).

You can go for the complete and total amnesty route as they did in Chile but then a lot of people such as victims famillies on both sides are left very upset and you still finish up in the courts.

Shack37

2nd Jan 2017, 15:10

HH
Shack - I'd love to see former senior members of the IRA stand trial but you have to face up to it - it's not going to happen.
To bring about an end to the fighting and killing we had to cut a deal with men and women who had blood up to their elbows. Morally it is repugnant but practically it was the only way. We've done it before (Kenya, Israel, Cyprus.....) and others have done it elsewhere (think Columbia).
You can go for the complete and total amnesty route as they did in Chile but then a lot of people such as victims famillies on both sides are left very upset and you still finish up in the courts.

In this we are in total agreement but how many British forces veterans of the campaigns you mention, Mau-Mau, Palestine and EOKA are being investigated? Why is it only those who served in Northern Ireland who are being pursued?

Twice I have mentioned Adams and Maguinness. There is no doubt that the latter was a PIRA commander in Londonderry and Adams has been linked to the disappearances and murders of many people. The sons of Jean MaConnell still live in fear because their mother was dragged away in their presence and they know who the cowardly bastards were who took her, tortured and murdered her. It has been said more than once that it was Adams personally who ordered this.

If there is a Heaven and Hell I know where I´d like to see these two go.

Heathrow Harry

2nd Jan 2017, 17:54

"Why is it only those who served in Northern Ireland who are being pursued?

It's not of course - there are investigations, trials and convictions for GW1, GW2, Afghanistan etc etc.

As for the IRA we talked to Yitzhak Shamir when he was PM of Israel even tho his hands were as blood -stained as our Irish friends.....

To some extent we made a rod for own backs by refusing to recognise the "obeying orders" alibi put forward by germans post-war. Once you say that the military have a duty to act responsibly as if they were civis whatever the military situation you finish up where we are now..........

Shack37

3rd Jan 2017, 10:13

It's not of course - there are investigations, trials and convictions for GW1, GW2, Afghanistan etc etc.

HH
You are perfectly correct, I was becoming a bit overfocussed with NI.
In the end I can only hope that justice is done and seen to be done for all.

Blacksheep

3rd Jan 2017, 12:13

I suppose all of us who served in Bomber Command might be guilty of conspiracy to murder 200 million Russians?

Heathrow Harry

3rd Jan 2017, 13:30

now that you mention it..........................

racedo

3rd Jan 2017, 19:00

So to get it back on the subject matter which was killing of McCann.

In 1995 a book on INLA by Jack Holland detailed McCann's death.................. I guess as he was a journalist he got the details of his death from official police sources amd was a writer on NI until his death.
This indicated that up to 10 spent cartridges were found yards from his body.

McCann, was as indicated by official police accounts, running away from police and soldiers when shot after a foot chase through some streets.

The question is what weapon in use at the time fired from a distance would also bring the cartridges with it and disperse them so close to their intended target.
Must admit not to knowing of such a weapon but there maybe one.

Geriaviator

4th Jan 2017, 13:59

I guess as he was a journalist he got the details of his death from official police sources and was a writer on NI until his death.You guess. Down the many years of the Northern Ireland Troubles too many ignorant people have also guessed and innocent people have died as a result. Spouting about human rights and justice is fine but why apply it only to the security forces?

Have you ever heard of Police Sgt Ovens? No, I thought not. In 1956 he was just an ordinary bobby (peeler to us) who went to investigate a reported incident at the Coalisland water supply tower. He was blown to bits by an IRA bomb ... yes, this campaign began 60 years ago.

How about an inquiry into the 1978 bombing of the Collie Dog Club dinner at La Mon Hotel which incinerated 12 people? My wife would have been there but she had the flu that week. Her friend was identified by the frame of her artificial leg. Questions about this horrific attack remain unanswered.

Have you heard of Bloody Friday? No, I thought not. Ten people lost their lives when bombs went off around central Belfast, including a bus station and opposite my own office which was spattered with bits of people. No inquiry there, then?

Having lived through 50 years of this I hold no brief for either side in this conflict, one's as bad as the other and they're still at it. But I am certain that had it not been for the brutal British soldiery now being investigated for doing their best in impossible situations our civil war would have been as brutal as those now in the Mideast. I could fill 20 pages of this thread with similar incidents for which nobody will ever be held to account, but I try to forget about it. Could I ask you to do the same and cease from ill-informed "guesses" and speculation which can still cause distress to those who were here?

Shack37

4th Jan 2017, 15:45

Geriaviator
You and I are of a similar age, I remember the atrocities you mention and others. Our sentiments are identical.
S37

racedo

4th Jan 2017, 15:56

You guess. Down the many years of the Northern Ireland Troubles too many ignorant people have also guessed and innocent people have died as a result. Spouting about human rights and justice is fine but why apply it only to the security forces?

Have you ever heard of Police Sgt Ovens? No, I thought not. In 1956 he was just an ordinary bobby (peeler to us) who went to investigate a reported incident at the Coalisland water supply tower. He was blown to bits by an IRA bomb ... yes, this campaign began 60 years ago.

How about an inquiry into the 1978 bombing of the Collie Dog Club dinner at La Mon Hotel which incinerated 12 people? My wife would have been there but she had the flu that week. Her friend was identified by the frame of her artificial leg. Questions about this horrific attack remain unanswered.

Have you heard of Bloody Friday? No, I thought not. Ten people lost their lives when bombs went off around central Belfast, including a bus station and opposite my own office which was spattered with bits of people. No inquiry there, then?

Having lived through 50 years of this I hold no brief for either side in this conflict, one's as bad as the other and they're still at it. But I am certain that had it not been for the brutal British soldiery now being investigated for doing their best in impossible situations our civil war would have been as brutal as those now in the Mideast. I could fill 20 pages of this thread with similar incidents for which nobody will ever be held to account, but I try to forget about it. Could I ask you to do the same and cease from ill-informed "guesses" and speculation which can still cause distress to those who were here?

Subject being discussed is "potential" Prosecution of 2 Paras for the death of OIRA Joe McCann in Belfast.
Prosecution will go forward to court after evidence gathered by PSNI.
If there is valid evidence then that will be laid before the court for it to decide whether a proscution case should go forward.
It may be dismissed and end there.
If a prosecution goes forward there will be a Guilty or Not Guilty verdict.

As previously highlighted there have been other people from Loyalist and Republican sides been arrested for actions committed during The Troubles, should these just be dismissed as well ?

Basil

10th Jan 2017, 10:04

Senior military judge mishandled trial of jailed marine Alexander Blackman, official report finds (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/01/09/senior-military-judge-mishandled-trial-jailed-marine-alexander/)
Britain’s most senior military judge mishandled the trial of a Royal Marine accused of murdering a wounded Taliban fighter to the extent that his conviction may now be quashed, the body that investigates potential miscarriages of justice has found.

The Criminal Cases Review Commission concluded that Jeff Blackett, the Judge Advocate General, was guilty of an “apparent failure” to properly apply the law when he failed to give a military jury the option of convicting Alexander Blackman of the lesser charge of manslaughter, according to extracts of an official report seen by The Telegraph.

I wonder if Judge Blackett failed to direct upon the option of a manslaughter conviction because he did not expect the jury to convict on a murder charge? Would have been an admirably cunning plan, except for . . .