New trailer is out for Dunkirk.

[NutLoose]

Totally off topic I know, but what the heck.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F-eMt3SrfFU

[Tankertrashnav]

Might be ok, but I'll miss John Mills and Dickie Attenborough :(

(Oh yes, and George Cole!)

[Buster Hyman]

Lacks the pizzazz of Red Tails don't you think?

[typerated]

Looks terrible to me.

Every scene over done and over acted.

Very American

[57mm]

Thought it might be dodgy when I saw that Harry Styles from One Direction was in it.....

[tartare]

Really???
Over done and over acted?
No stiff upper lips eh? :rolleyes:
I'll bet the evacuation was an absolute nightmare - and I'll bet there was plenty of overdoing and emotion!!!
I actually think it looks bloody good.
Those CGI Spits were flying a bit close in formation, but the wingovers were reasonably realistic.
The trailer certainly conveys some of the horror and terror...
I hope it'll be exactly the sort of thing to make an x-box generation appreciate what previous ones went through.
I'll certainly be sitting down with Tartarette to watch it.

[typerated]

Taratare,

No I am not looking for stiff upper lip - far from it.

But people under immense stress don't react like this - far from it!

Dramatic music does not play in the background

messages like "hope is a weapon" don't pop up.

It verges on cringworthy in it's American style of storytelling and using scenes as a vehicle to pass messages.

Most of all though it screams fake - I don't believe I'm in Dunkirk I just think I'm watching crap actors following a crap screenplay.

[ExRAFRadar]

Don't think it will be another 'Saving Private Ryan'

Hate to say it but I think it looks a lot like that other ridiculous film 'Pearl Harbour'.

[muppetofthenorth]

It's quite amazing that you can totally and completely accurately judge a (most likely) 2 hour+ film by a barely 2 minute-long advert. That's a talent.

[ExRAFRadar]

I know and thank you for pointing it out.
I'm available for pointing out how crap things are in a variety of fields and for a modest fee will happily judge without due consideration, expertise or even interest in the subject matter.

[NutLoose]

Those CGI Spits were flying a bit close in formation, but the wingovers were reasonably realistic.
Ahhh yes, the CGI Mk1 Spitfires that are actually REAL..... :E:p

Dunkirk ? Filming the Aerial Scenes for the Epic Movie | Warbirds News (http://www.warbirdsnews.com/warbirds-news/dunkirk.html)

http://forums.airshows.co.uk/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=74081

[tartare]

,,,even better!!!

[ian16th]

Do they use the venue of our wedding reception?

They did in The Atonement!

[BEagle]

Tankertrashnav wrote: Might be ok, but I'll miss John Mills and Dickie Attenborough

Well, each to their own, but 19 year old Jenny Agutter rather did it for me in The Snow Goose* when it was first released....:ok:

* BBC TV movie, made in 1971, based on Paul Gallico's The Snow Goose: A Story of Dunkirk.

[handsome goafer]

At least get the Union Flag the right way up; numpties

[Pontius Navigator]

At least get the Union Flag the right way up; numpties
Which flag is upside down?

[Pontius Navigator]

MotN, ExRAF has a perfectly valid opinion. A trailer is supposed to advertise and enthuse. If it does not achieve that it fails.

Then as far as pop up captions, I hope these are just part off the trailer.

I liked Warwick Ashton as the Battery SM as epitome of the cool British Army WO.

[hoodie]

Just watched the trailer again, and the only Union Flag I could see was the one on the vehicle right at the beginning.

It's the correct way up.

[Chris Scott]

Any chance they'll make the Buchon's engine sound less like a Merlin in the sound track?

Here's a video of the real thing, with the Daimler Benz DB 605 engine:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUkBh7ehqCg

[start listening at 4;30 6;30 and 8:05]

[Tashengurt]

Any chance they'll make the Buchon's engine sound less like a Merlin in the sound track?

I'd imagine they will. After all EVERYONE will notice the difference.

[handsome goafer]

Look at this flag, the one on the jeep is wrong. Look at the wide white bits, they should be at the top next to the flagpole.

[sycamore]

If it is flown upside down ,it means `we are in distress`....fairly appropriate really..

[Onceapilot]

The aircraft engine sounds in that clip seem to be a version of the Stuka siren, rather than any actual aero-engine sound. The Stuka siren sound would be appropriate for dive bombing attacks by Stuka's fitted with the siren, other aircraft would make their own distinctive sound and, we are lucky today because many of the original engines and aircraft are being flown and digital recordings exist.:ok: Strangely though, the engine of the Stuka (Junkers Jumo 211) is perhaps THE one you will not hear today as there are none flying, or even operating AFAIK.:sad:

OAP

[DaveW]

Look at this flag, the one on the jeep is wrong. Look at the wide white bits, they should be at the top next to the flagpole.

The problem seems to be not simply that it's upside down, but that it's being hoist from the fly - that is, the flagpole is on the incorrect side of the flag.

https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/66162937/Dunkirk_Trailer2_UnionFlag.jpg

[Pontius Navigator]

No, looking at the flag on the Beetle wagon something is clearly wrong. The cross is not truely crossing so whatever way it is flown will always have the thicker white band on top.

[NutLoose]

Flag is the right way up and the pole is on the correct side, thick white band to the top at the pole, it's probably because it's blowing away from you that it looks odd, and even if it was upside down, that was a naval signal for distress and you couldn't get more in distress then the BEF in 1940.

[tartare]

Well - if it gets my two kids asking their teachers more about Dunkirk - then it's done it's job as far as I'm concerned.
Even better if they can come back and point out the inaccuracies.
The three of us watched The Aviator last night.
Dramatic Hollywood shtick - but lots of questions afterwards about Hughes, whether the Goose actually flew, the XF-11 - and how he ended his days.
Use any means to get them interested I say.
One of the best series we saw recently was `WW2 from Space' using computer graphics and satellite imagery to illustrate the truly global nature and enormity of the conflict.

[Fonsini]

Anything that recognises the spirit of those civilians who sailed across the Channel in tiny pleasure boats each to rescue a handful of soldiers is ok in my book.

Now if the film shows cowardice, selfishness, and soldiers turning on each other to get a place in a boat - then it's pitchforks and burning torches time as far as I'm concerned.

It was so close to being over for us at that moment, and we were alone....

[Tankertrashnav]

I was once privileged to own a DSM and bar, one of only 153 awarded during WW2. The medal was awarded to a rating who was placed in charge of a boat which was lowered from a warship, and which then made several return trips to the beach to rescue waiting troops, all the time under air attack. The bar was awarded for the unsuccessful attempted rescue of the 51st Highland Division at St Valery a week or so later, when the boat commanded by the same rating had to withdraw after coming under heavy fire from the cliffs overlooking the port.

Just two examples of hundreds of acts of heroism during the evacuation, many of which would have gone unwitnessed and unrecognised. Let's hope the film concentrates on them

[muppetofthenorth]

Just two examples of hundreds of acts of heroism during the evacuation, many of which would have gone unwitnessed and unrecognised. Let's hope the film concentrates on them

Going by the trailer, it looks like that's the kind of role given to Mark Rylance. They wouldn't get an actor of that calibre in unless they were prominent.

[MightyGem]

Re the flag in the trailer. The upper left quadrant(as shown in the above screenshot) is correct with the broad strip at the top. However, the lower left quadrant is incorrect. The broad strip in that should also be on the top, as in handsome gofers's photo. The top right quadrant is also incorrect as well. Check it with HG's photo.

Someone's made a gash job of making the flag.:ugh:

[mr fish]

some of the best acted war films of the past few years have come from eastern Europe.
of course subtitled and usually sporting wildly inaccurate picture covers...german leopard tanks and hawker seafurys pop up regularly.

because of the niche audience these movies attract in the west, they can often be found in your local poundshop.

KATYN is well worth looking out for...a polish film with a particularly anti Russian slant concerning the katyn forest massacres.

much better than the dreck produced lately in the "west".

FISH.

[Tankertrashnav]

Going by the trailer, it looks like that's the kind of role given to Mark Rylance

Except that at 56 (and not a youthful looking 56) Rylance is way too old for that sort of role - by 25 years at least. However this is often the case with war films - even the excellent Battle of Britain had some distinctly elderly actors playing fighter pilots, when at the time 30 was regarded as "over the hill". Michael Caine was 35, Christopher Plummer 39 and Robert Shaw was 41 - but I suppose its wonderful what you can do with makeup!

[ExRAFRadar]

And the award for spotter of the year goes to:

"Any chance they'll make the Buchon's engine sound less like a Merlin in the sound track?"

As one who, as a youngster, listened to LP recordings of aircraft engines I applaud you. :D

[muppetofthenorth]

Except that at 56 (and not a youthful looking 56) Rylance is way too old for that sort of role - by 25 years at least. However this is often the case with war films - even the excellent Battle of Britain had some distinctly elderly actors playing fighter pilots, when at the time 30 was regarded as "over the hill". Michael Caine was 35, Christopher Plummer 39 and Robert Shaw was 41 - but I suppose its wonderful what you can do with makeup!

Well, depends which acts of heroism it is you're talking about.
It's looking like he's playing a civilian with a boat going to help out in the evacuation - I wasn't aware there was an age limit for those people?

[pr00ne]

Fonsini,

Just great! So as long as historical and unpalatable truth is brushed out and replaced with heroic sham you are happy?

Yep, we were truly alone in 1940, just us as the largest Empire that the world had ever known against ONE European power...

[Herod]

pr00ne. Yes, we had a big Empire. Just how long do you think it would have taken to get the troops and equipment from Canada, India, Australia, NZ etc, as opposed to Hitler being just across the Channel? Don't forget, if we had lost the B of B, the USA would not have had the big offshore aircraft/troop carrier in place, D Day wouldn't have happened, and then where would we be?

[pr00ne]

Herod,

Undoubtedly those months in 1940 were absolutely critical and we were at our most vulnerable. One can make a valid case that we were saved as much by Hitler and Goerings blunders as the outcome of the Battle of Britain.

But let's not have any of this "poor little England stood all alone" nonsense. We had massive resources both material and financial, but your point about those 1940 months remains valid.

[Buster Hyman]

and then where would we be?
Ich weiß es nicht!

[Chris Scott]

Quote from ExRAFRadar:
And the award for spotter of the year goes to:
"Any chance they'll make the Buchon's engine sound less like a Merlin in the sound track?"
As one who, as a youngster, listened to LP recordings of aircraft engines I applaud you.

Thanks! Some of us never completely grow up, so I still find myself tumbling out of the house at the first murmuring of approaching Gypsy Queens, Twin Wasps, Merlin(s), Centaurus, etc., not to mention Chinook rotors. But I don't think I'd recognise a DB 605 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUkBh7ehqCg).

My comment was based on memories of being slightly disappointed by the Battle of Britain film soundtrack (1969). Visually, of course, it would take CG to disguise the Buchon's classic Merlin nose. And I'm not generally a fan of CG.

[Tankertrashnav]

Well, depends which acts of heroism it is you're talking about.
It's looking like he's playing a civilian with a boat going to help out in the evacuation - I wasn't aware there was an age limit for those people?

Sorry I thought you were referring to the naval rating I described in my previous post. Of course he could well be the right age for a civilian boat owner - plenty of men that age took part in the rescue.

Both of Rylance's grandfathers were POWs of the Japanese, and this maybe has led to his very strong pacifist views. Nothing wrong with that, but I am less impressed with his patronage of the Stop the War Coalition, which seems to exist to protest against all wars, except those where Russia is involved.

Not a bad actor, though.

[muppetofthenorth]

Sorry I thought you were referring to the naval rating I described in my previous post. Of course he could well be the right age for a civilian boat owner - plenty of men that age took part in the rescue.

Both of Rylance's grandfathers were POWs of the Japanese, and this maybe has led to his very strong pacifist views. Nothing wrong with that, but I am less impressed with his patronage of the Stop the War Coalition, which seems to exist to protest against all wars, except those where Russia is involved.

Not a bad actor, though.

Indirectly, I was, but yeah, I meant more general acts, rather than uniformed acts.

The 'miscasting' of older actors (technically inaccurate, but completely understandable) has continued: Tom Hardy is shown as a pilot but is 39.

And you're right about Rylance. His part in Bridge of Spies was more apt.

[Hangarshuffle]

The only dit I know about Dunkirk is the one my old mum spins me. As a child, her adult neighbour was a reservist Pioneer Corp private. He worked what they called "on the drops" down on the river (basically discharging coal from railway into collier ships),he was probably a tough working man normal for the era. He was called up on outbreak and then caught up in the whole debacle of evacuation of the BEF. He returned to England so shell shocked and frightened that he was immediately discharged from the Army. Upon return home he then fled to his bedroom and remained within his own four walls, without leaving the house, for weeks on end. Finally, grandmother heard the slow playing of a piano next door (through the wall)...this was the pioneer, starting to return to a slow recovery. Using music to calm himself.
All films are only even 1% true representation of the utter horror war inflicts upon the ordinary British working man IMHO.

[Onceapilot]

Chris Scott
But I don't think I'd recognise a DB 605 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cUkBh7ehqCg). I think the DB605 in a 109G sounds quite like a slightly gruffer Merlin with a bit more supercharger howl. The DB601 in a contempary BoB 109E sounds very much the same as a DB605, IMO. If you trawl youtube, you can listen to these original restored engines. Of course, two of the important WW2 aero-engines that you cannot hear in modern times are, the Napier Sabre or, the Junkers Jumo 211. Let's hope that can be fixed soon. To me, perhaps the most evocative aero-engine sound is on a contemporary youtube recording of the 1929 Schneider Trophy. Search youtube "1929 Schneider Trophy" and you will find the great posting by "aviation bomberguy" The original sound of Atcherley's S.6 with its 1929 Rolls-Royce "R" engine roaring along The Solent shows the technological skill that helped to win the air war 10 years later. For those interested, the 1929 "R" engine ran at full throttle for the whole race (upto 1 hour at 3000rpm and 13psi boost, 1900bhp)!:D
BTW, no original 1929 Rolls-Royce "R" engine exists, they were all consumed in the development of the 1931 "R" engine.

OAP

[NutLoose]

For those interested, the 1929 "R" engine ran at full throttle for the whole race (upto 1 hour at 3000rpm and 13psi boost, 1900bhp)!

For OAP

The Unlimiteds go flashing through the racecourse, engines howling, air shearing, heat waves streaming. Four hundred eighty miles an hour is 8 miles a minute, and the elite racers take about 70 seconds to cover the 9.1 mile Reno course. If you could take a souped P-51 racer flying the circuit at Reno, slow time down, and examine just one second, what would you find?

In that one second, the V-12 Rolls-Royce Merlin engine would have gone through 60 revolutions, with each of the 48 valves slamming open and closed 30 times. The twenty four spark plugs have fired 720 times. Each piston has traveled a total of 60 feet in linear distance at an average speed of 41 miles per hour, with the direction of movement reversing 180° after every 6 inches. Three hundred and sixty power pulses have been transmitted to the crankshaft, making 360 sonic booms as the exhaust gas is expelled from the cylinder with a velocity exceeding the speed of sound. The water pump impeller has spun 90 revolutions, sending 4 gallons of coolant surging through the engine and radiators. The oil pumps have forced 47 fluid ounces, roughly one-third gallon, of oil through the engine, oil cooler, and oil tank, scavenging heat and lubricating the flailing machinery. The supercharger rotor has completed 348 revolutions, its rim spinning at Mach 1, forcing 4.2 pounds or 55 ft³ of ambient air into the combustion chambers under 3 atmospheres of boost pressure. Around 9 fluid ounces of high octane aviation fuel, 7,843 BTUs of energy, has been injected into the carburetor along with 5.3 fluid ounces of methanol/water anti-detonant injection fluid. Perhaps 1/8 fluid ounce of engine oil has been either combusted or blown overboard via the crankcase breather tube. Over 1.65 million foot pounds of work have been done, the equivalent of lifting a station wagon to the top of the Statue of Liberty.

In that one second, the hard-running Merlin has turned the propeller through 25 complete revolutions, with each of the blade tips having arced through a distance of 884 feet at a rotational velocity of 0.8 Mach. Fifteen fluid ounces of spray bar water has been atomized and spread across the face of the radiator to accelerate the transfer of waste heat from the cooling system to the atmosphere.

In that one second, the aircraft itself has traveled 704 feet, close to 1/8 mile, or roughly 1.5% of a single lap. The pilot's heart has taken 1.5 beats, pumping 5.4 fluid ounces of blood through his body at a peak pressure of 4.7 inches of mercury over ambient pressure. Our pilot happened to inspire during our measured second, inhaling approximately 30 cubic inches (0.5 liter) of oxygen from the on-board system, and 2.4 million, yes million, new red blood cells have been formed in the pilot's bone marrow.

In just one second, an amazing sequence of events have taken place beneath those polished cowlings and visored helmets. It's the world's fastest motorsport. Don't blink!




Rolls-Royce (http://www.enginehistory.org/rolls-royce.shtml)

[noflynomore]

Why is the pilot breathing oxygen at ground level? Even if this is some kind of forced aspiration system it would surely be air, not O2?

[NutLoose]

Possibly because with the cut down canopy they tend suffer a lot more from exhaust gasses entering the cockpit.

[esa-aardvark]

Onceapilot, I recall (from distant recesses) putting fuel into Atcherly's
car. He was, I think Air commodore, and had a nice Jag (???) with twin
tanks. That would have been around 1960 (give or take)

[tartare]

Suspect you're right Nutty.
Typhoon pilots (WW2) wore masks all the time due to problems with carbon monoxide entering cockpit - some kind of design fault IIRC.

[Onceapilot]

Thanks Nutty, Yes the unlimited racers are impressive developments. For me though, it is always the original prototypes and trailblazers that have the most historic value and technological majesty, in some cases!:ok:
Thanks esa-vark, If you look up that vid you can see the young grinning Fg Off RLR Atcherly at Calshot in 1929.:)

OAP

[Martin the Martian]

Well, I'm planning to go and see it when it's out. Christopher Nolan does not tend to disappoint.

And as for the close formation Spitfires, quite appropriate for the Area Fighting Tactics used by Fighter Command at the time.

[Finningley Boy]

pr00ne. Yes, we had a big Empire. Just how long do you think it would have taken to get the troops and equipment from Canada, India, Australia, NZ etc, as opposed to Hitler being just across the Channel? Don't forget, if we had lost the B of B, the USA would not have had the big offshore aircraft/troop carrier in place, D Day wouldn't have happened, and then where would we be?

Not to mention how fractured that Empire was, the cohesion of the Wehrmacht, Waffen SS and so together with old Joe Stalin being a genuine ally of Hitler at the time while Joe Kennedy Snr, US Ambassador did us no favours whatsoever with his subjective reports back to he White House and the rather agreeable attitude of the Dublin Government toward Hitler, we were very much alone and against a much larger and superiorly equipped land fighting force (Germany eventually generated over 400 Divisions to our 40, albeit neither were fully deployed simultaneously, but you get the picture.

FB:)

[rolling20]

I haven't seen the trailer, but the ad I saw depicted 3 well shaven men sitting on the beach like they were on their holidays. During those chaotic days, the troops didn't have anything to eat, let alone shave!

[muppetofthenorth]

I haven't seen the trailer, but the ad I saw depicted 3 well shaven men sitting on the beach like they were on their holidays. During those chaotic days, the troops didn't have anything to eat, let alone shave!

Speaking from personal experience ...Er, I mean, I heard from a friend... some 18-20 year olds (not unreasonable age for soldiers) don't need to shave everyday or even every other day to remain clean shaven.

[Pontius Navigator]

The advantage for the film makers of this film compared with others like Tirpitz, Bismarck, Graf Spee is the back story. The front story, OP Dynamo, is the framework but the little boat owners have a wider range of stories from which to draw and of the retreat, even more.

The new Dambuster film, if ever, is in a rigid setting where as the Dunkirk back story could be completely different from the earlier film.

[glad rag]

That looks great and if it connects with the young through actors, gci, and media so much the better..

[reynoldsno1]

My Dad was in France in 1940. He made it out at Brest as part of Operation Ariel. It took a month to get from Reims to Brest - I have the diary he kept at the time, discovered after his death. He spoke about his experiences very rarely.
The one thing I immediately noticed in the trailer is how relatively clean everybody and everything looks. In Dad's diary one of the big events he related was having a wash in a river - once - in a month.

[ExRAFRadar]

I live near the River Thames in Ham with Teddington Lock very close by.

Apparently a local boat yard owner back in 1940 got 100 small boats together at Teddington Lock and they all set sail for Dunkirk.

This website has some pics of the 'Little Ships' when they got together at Teddington for the Diamond Jubilee Pageant

Dunkirk "Little Ships" return to Teddington Lock ? Teddington, Middlesex, UK (http://teddingtontown.co.uk/2012/06/01/dunkirk-little-ships-return-to-teddington-lock/)

[MightyGem]

but the ad I saw depicted 3 well shaven men sitting on the beach
Probably Guardsmen. On the post Falklands lecture tour, that I attended, the Guards officer stated that his men washed and shaved every day, much to mirth of the Para reps. :E

[Tankertrashnav]

During WW1, the Royal Welsh Fusiliers were renowned for bull, even in the trenches. Robert Graves, a subaltern in the regiment, relates how his men complained about this, saying "they werent in the guards". His reply was that when they proved they could fight as well as the guards, he would ease off on kit inspections, etc. He went on to write that in fact regiments which took the most care about smartness and cleanliness tended to have the fewest cases of sickness, trench foot etc, and were generally more efficient fighting troops than their scruffy comrades.

Merely looking like someone in the SAS doesn't make you a good soldier.

[Pontius Navigator]

Why is the pilot breathing oxygen at ground level? Even if this is some kind of forced aspiration system it would surely be air, not O2?
Is he?

The action of clipping one's mask to the helmet means the microphone is in position and you can got hot-mic hands free.

[LeggyMountbatten]

I saw it yesterday and liked it, Nolan is far from the same old same old writer/director.

But it is Marmite, you'll either like it and forgive it's little production foibles (44 pattern helmet on the mole, radar on the destroyer(s) etc etc)...

or you'll hate it....

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Seconded. Appreciate the fact that they've not CGI'd the whole thing, rather than picking holes in the detail I would say. I thought it was frankly bloody good. Whoever did the soundtrack deserves an Oscar for the way they manipulate you during the film.

[Treble one]

Its a pretty stark film, with very little dialogue-but then again it was a pretty stark event all around.


The cinematography is incredible. The flying is very real, and its great to see real Spitfires and a Buchon-there's a shot of the Blenheim too.


Its very good-no nod to Hollywood-just the very harsh reality of the situation as it unfolded.

[pr00ne]

It all seems far FAR too neat, clean and tidy, "Saving Private Ryan" or "Band of Brothers" it sure aint!

[innuendo]

Why is the pilot breathing oxygen at ground level? Even if this is some kind of forced aspiration system it would surely be air, not O2?

In addition to the reason posted by Pontius, (hot mike), a mask also provides a measure of facial fire protection.

[rcsa]

The 'miscasting' of older actors (technically inaccurate, but completely understandable) has continued: Tom Hardy is shown as a pilot but is 39

My Grandfather was a Hurricane pilot with 3 Sqn, killed in France in the days before Dunkirk. He was 34 years old, and looked no younger than Tom Hardy does now.

Many RAF pilots in the first months of the war had been with the RAF (or in RAFVR or Auxiliary) Squadrons for some years before the war, and were therefore in their 30's. The legend of the fresh-faced 18 year old Spitfire pilot going into battle with 40 hours in his log-book was a function of the desperate expansion of the RAF in the weeks after Dunkirk.

R

[PPRuNeUser0211]

I'll agree with proone on the 'neatness' aspect, but I'd argue that actually it doesn't require that given the other devices it uses to generate the feeling of doom. In addition, the lack of it makes it available to a wider audience which can be a good thing.

[Wander00]

I am surprised no one has spotted a Routemaster bus...hat, coat.....

[GeeRam]

My Grandfather was a Hurricane pilot with 3 Sqn, killed in France in the days before Dunkirk. He was 34 years old, and looked no younger than Tom Hardy does now.

Many RAF pilots in the first months of the war had been with the RAF (or in RAFVR or Auxiliary) Squadrons for some years before the war, and were therefore in their 30's. The legend of the fresh-faced 18 year old Spitfire pilot going into battle with 40 hours in his log-book was a function of the desperate expansion of the RAF in the weeks after Dunkirk.

R

Actually, the director has made the mistake in reverse in respect to the soldiers being rescued......all too young in general.
As regular's many were gnarly old sweats - they weren't all youngun's, and as mentioned, they all look far too clean. Looks like they also didn't employ the right people to advise on kit as well..... I have a photo of my Godfather taken about 6 months he was evacuated from Dunkirk, and although he was 23 at the time, he looks 10-15 years older :(

Its entertainment though, not a documentary (so I keep telling myself)

Apart from the brief use of ARC's Blenheim, its amusing that it was a British pilot flying the 'Luftwaffe' Buchon, and American pilots flying all the Spits for the filming, but given who owns the 3 x Spits, that shouldn't be a surprise.

[oldmansquipper]

Just watched the movie today...I`m retired, so I can!

Some artistic licence for dramatic effect of course, but not a bad film. Quite good, in fact. As SWMBO says, it's intense and is cleverly done. It took me about 30 min to realise what was happening with the plot and the timelines, but once I got my head round it, it was easy to become 'immersed'. (Watch the film and you will see why)

Worth paying a bit extra and viewing it at an IMAX, IMHO. Some lovely Spitfire shots, but ......I doubt that the 'engine off' performance is better than my K6 glider. (One example of the artistic licence)

Not a documentary in any way.. and it failed to reach the level of realism in "Saving private Ryan" but its much better than 633 Sqn.

A curates egg. 6.5/10 Worth a look.:)

[Pontius Navigator]

I wonder if the black dog film has not been produced yet as it would be difficult to match the near contemporary portrayal of the original with many actors who had actually served.

[Treble one]

I wonder if the black dog film has not been produced yet as it would be difficult to match the near contemporary portrayal of the original with many actors who had actually served.


The problem with the black dog film, PN, is what to call the black dog....at this rate, 617 will be retiring their F-35's before it sees the cinema screen....

[huge72]

I can agree with Geeram, my father joined the Army in 1925 and had his 30th birthday( 31st May) on the beach. I have pictures of him shortly after he returned home and he looked in his sixties. He never really spoke of what he went through other than the coincidence of meeting his brother in law on the beach as well. Completely different units and neither knew the other was in France at all. And according to my mother he was never the same man she married less than a year before. He still of course had another 5 years of war to go!!!

[Tankertrashnav]

The problem with the black dog film, PN, is what to call the black dog..

Congratulations Treble One- you are the 1,000th member to mention this on PPRuNe.

:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh: (x100)

[Fonsini]

**Warning - Spoiler Alert**

Don't read this if you haven't seen the film yet.

So I saw it and very much enjoyed it - caught the first showing at my local theater here in the states. Per my earlier post, sure enough there was a cowardly second lieutenant who managed to kill a teenage British boy in a fit of terror, but there was far more representation of personal sacrifice than open cowardice so I have no cause for complaint. The scene where the Spitfire runs out of fuel at 100' AGL and still manages to kill a Stuka 30 seconds later with conserved energy did remind a bit of a Jaffa orange - far fetched, and those Brownings seemed to have a lot of ammunition as well, but maybe I'm being picky. Apparently the French have been complaining that they didn't get much of a look-in which surprised me, because I thought they did - the depiction of them fighting a rearguard action reflected very well on them. Mark Rylance was superb as the private boat owner and Tom Hardy did a great job as the Spitfire pilot who refused to leave the fight - there were a few interesting comments about the perceived lack of air cover from the RAF, historical accuracy ? The final scene where one of the young soldiers comments that people will be spitting on them in the streets for having been defeated, only to be met at the train station by cheering crowds was entirely believable and quite moving.

All in all I thought they told the story very well.

[Hueymeister]

Saw it here in Ottawa yesterday; great film, fabulous cinematography, treated the subject with respect (despite the Spitfire fuel/shooting down the Ju-87). Nicely done.

[Bob Viking]

I've just returned from the cinema in Fort Worth, Texas having watched Dunkirk. I will lay my cards on the table and say I thought it was bloody brilliant. If you are able to ignore the nit picking of some members of this forum and appreciate the movie for what it is I think you'll love it too.

The audience here was totally silent and, being an RAF fighter pilot (as a Jaguar mate I can just about get away with saying that) from Dorset I felt a fair amount of personal investment. It made me feel proud to be British and I think paid fair tribute to what happened and should reach out to a large audience in the process. The casting of Harry Styles was a clever move in this regard.

Enough from me.

BV

[[email protected]]

Bob - I think the nitpicking is because it is a good film that could have been better (at least as far as aviators are concerned).

As mentioned the perpetual energy Spitfire - which clearly also had no engine when it burnt out on the beach (yes of course they wouldn't trash a real one but it was such an obvious fudge that could easily have been avoided) - the inconsistent height calls vs the actual height they were flying and the Batman-style dragging out of some of the dogfight scenes to increase the apparent jeopardy (not their use of offset timelines, that worked well once you understood what was happening), the unlimited ammunition in Tom Hardy's Spitfire,

It is a good film but did they actually have an aviation advisor?

[KiloB]

Great Movie.
I agree with most of the aviation niggles, but in general the aviation side was better done than the Naval. (High threat environment, but point defense weapons not even manned; main QF weapons trained fore and aft?)
But a memorable movie.

[Treble one]

Congratulations Treble One- you are the 1,000th member to mention this on PPRuNe.

:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh: (x100)


Thank you TTN-I've never done anything groundbreaking before so I don't see why I should start now! :O:O:O

[albatross]

Saw it yesterday...great film...however the chopped up editing made it very confusing time line wise for some...
I found it very strange in the opening that they refered to the "enemy" and not to "Germans or perhaps to be PC even "Nazi Germany" or "Hitler's Germany".
Also if ditching a Spit would you not want to lock the 'hood, canopy' open? During the film the pilots slide them back then close them again.
I had no idea spits ditched so well!
Also if you are going to glide to a landing on a beach is "wheels down" the best idea especially if you are going to destroy the aircraft anyhow? Great landing however.
Enjoyed the movie a lot.
There were a lot of folks very confused walking out of the film due to the choppy editing.
There should have been a couple of scenes to give historical context to the events depicted.

[surely not]

Never mind the aviation irregularities, the railway coaches they traveled in on return to UK were BR Mk1 stock with an upholstery pattern on the seats that is late 1960's!! They should have contacted the Bluebell Railway who have coaches that fit the timescale in all aspects.

Ok that is nit picking, and I felt that overall the film is a very well made film that is loosely based on a true story.

[dead_pan]

Terrible film, although great fun spotting the very many historical inaccuracies (was that a helideck on the destroyer??), continuity errors etc etc. Typical Nolan mumbo jumbo

[dead_pan]

...as for Hardy's gunnery skills, he had the pipper slap bang on that Heinkel how many times???

[bakseetblatherer]

errible film, although great fun spotting the very many historical inaccuracies (was that a helideck on the destroyer??), continuity errors etc etc. Typical Nolan mumbo jumboThere is a YouTube channel for some good inaccuracy whinging, very enjoyable!

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCggHoXaj8BQHIiPmOxezeWA

I also wonder if the 'lots of civilians crewing the little boats' myth is continued in the movie.

Still, I'm looking forward to seeing it.

[Tankertrashnav]

Its not really a myth as there were undoubtedly many hundreds of them, but their contribution is often overrated, as the vast majority of troops were rescued by larger naval vessels from jetties, rather than by small boats off the beaches.

[itsnotthatbloodyhard]

If you really want nitpicking, try the review in 'USA Today' which says,

"The trio of timelines can be jarring as you figure out how they all fit, and the fact that there are only a couple of women and no lead actors of color may rub some the wrong way."

I haven't seen the film yet, but I'm sure it would've been much better and more inclusive if the Spitfire pilot had been played by Helen Mirren or Beyoncé, instead of Tom Hardy . :rolleyes:

[aislinn]

...as for Hardy's gunnery skills, he had the pipper slap bang on that Heinkel how many times???
Requires some lead. In a turn, no lead, no gun kill. Unless your 'lead' travels the speed of light;)

[Bob Viking]

As archaic as the Spitfire gun sight looks it actually accounts for lead. Anyone who has flown the Hawk T1A will recognise it.

BV

[melmothtw]

Also if you are going to glide to a landing on a beach is "wheels down" the best idea especially if you are going to destroy the aircraft anyhow?

Good idea or not, it happened. On Twitter there are images of the actual Spitfire on the beach with its wheels down, having been torched by the pilot shortly after landing. I would post it, but as Photobucket is now looking to charge me for doing so, I won't.

[aislinn]

As archaic as the Spitfire gun sight looks it actually accounts for lead. Anyone who has flown the Hawk T1A will recognise it.

BV
Interesting. Never knew that fact. Thanks.

In the F5, F4 and F18 we still had to pull lead. The F5A did have a reticle, albeit.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

The '51 onwards TON Class minesweeper looked a bit out of place.

[Wokkafans]

Good idea or not, it happened. On Twitter there are images of the actual Spitfire on the beach with its wheels down, having been torched by the pilot shortly after landing. I would post it, but as Photobucket is now looking to charge me for doing so, I won't.

Plenty of images in this link - is this the aircraft you are thinking of?

De westkust in mei 1940 - Hét ABL-History Forum (http://www.ablhistoryforum.be/viewtopic.php?t=4171)

[melmothtw]

Yep, about halfway down you can see the Spitfire in question. Amazed to see the Hurricane that lasted on the beach through to at least 1958!

[MightyGem]

Have to say I was distinctly underwhelmed. Thought the acting was nothing special, RN ships looking well post war, the Heinkle would have crashed no where near the ship and with all the heritage railways in the country, couldn't they have found a period railway carriage instead of the one I travelled in last week.

[DODGYOLDFART]

Bob V I think you will find that the Spit & Hurri of that period actually had what was known as a reflector gun sight which did not automatically calculate lead. The later Giro gun sight did but that only came into operational use in early 1944. I have a feeling that the first a/c to be fitted with the Giro were Mk IX Spits.

[Bob Viking]

Dodgyoldfart.

You are probably right. All I can say is it looked like the Hawk T1A sight (which I know was of Spitfire vintage).

I will defer to your greater knowledge.

My more general point is that we should not let knowledge ruin our enjoyment of films. The term I always bear in mind is 'suspension of disbelief'.

When I was 12 I saw Top Gun and fell in love with fighter jets. If I'd let the technical inaccuracies distract me I never would have ended up where I am now. Drunk in Texas, but you know what I mean!

I maintain that it was a great film and if it helps a new generation (or new demographic) understand an oft forgotten event then all I can say is well done.

BV

[DODGYOLDFART]

BV I totally agree with your sentiments. Given that it is near impossible to recreate all the hardware of the period accurately it is indeed a great film for the reasons you mention.

I would also add that it is a great reviver of memories for those of us now heading into our dotage and that is no bad thing. Helps to keep some distance between us and the funny farm.

Incidentally as the reflector gun sight of that time did not predict the lead required for deflection shots a great deal of practise by both pilots and air gunners was undertaken with clay pigeons and shot guns. A great deal more fun than squatting in a simulator I think.

[Danny42C]

DODGYOLDFART (#99),

When I did my OTU on the Spitfire I in 1942, ISTR that we had a simple "ring and bead" reflector sight. A long forgotten "simulator" called the "Edmunds Trainer" consisted of the Link trainer with one of these sights fitted plus a model aircraft mounted on a trolley. A chap pushed this across your bows, and you guessed the deflection and yawed the Link accordingly.

Of course, it was hopeless, as the Link yawed "in leaps and bounds" (very jerkily), and how we were assessed (if at all) I cannot remember. Clay pigeons would've been useful, but we didn't have any. The aircraft had gun cameras, but they were never used for training - I suppose that the cost of film plus developing and assessing results was too much to bear. The result was, as I have said (on "Pilot's Brevet") in the distant past, "a young man might arrive on his first squadron having fired nothing more lethal than the popgun he had as a child".

I had totally forgotten the "Edmunds Trainer" until I found entries in the "Link Trainer" section of my log of time spent in it. Had to appeal on "Pilots Brevet" Thread to find what it it was, for I'd lost all memory of it ! By the most curious of coincidences, I later served with a Wing Commander Edmondes, an Armaments Branch officer, who had devised it ("Edmondes" having been corrupted into "Edmonds" and then "Edmunds"). Strange but true.

Danny42C.

[JAVELINBOY]

I spotted the Mk1 Railway Carriage also the burning Spitfire had no engine just a Prop on what looked like a length of straight scaffold pole.

[India Four Two]

Dreadful. I would have walked out except for the fact that my son took me.

A significant sequence involves the civilian boat captain rescuing the pilot of a ditched Spitfire from drowning. Why was he drowning? Because he ditched with the canopy closed! :ugh:

However, the shots of the Spitfires and the Blenheim were nice. :ok:

All-in-all, it made me decide to watch the original movie again. I was living in Ramsgate when they made that film and they used the harbour entrance for some shots, complete with sand bags, barbed wire and AA guns.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunkirk_(1958_film)

Starring John Mills, Richard Attenborough and Bernard Lee


The film was the second most popular production at the British box office in 1958. According to MGM records it earned only $310,000 in the U.S.A. and Canada, but $1,750,000 elsewhere, resulting in a profit of $371,000.

[snippy]

Never mind the aviation irregularities, the railway coaches they traveled in on return to UK were BR Mk1 stock with an upholstery pattern on the seats that is late 1960's!! They should have contacted the Bluebell Railway who have coaches that fit the timescale in all aspects.

Ok that is nit picking, and I felt that overall the film is a very well made film that is loosely based on a true story.

It's the one thing I immediately picked up on as I used to travel on those carriages..😂😂😂

A very good film with a cracking soundtrack....the "ticking clock" was a brilliant background noise/touch

[MAINJAFAD]

Dreadful. I would have walked out except for the fact that my son took me.

A significant sequence involves the civilian boat captain rescuing the pilot of a ditched Spitfire from drowning. Why was he drowning? Because he ditched with the canopy closed! :ugh:

However, the shots of the Spitfires and the Blenheim were nice. :ok:

All-in-all, it made me decide to watch the original movie again. I was living in Ramsgate when they made that film and they used the harbour entrance for some shots, complete with sand bags, barbed wire and AA guns.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunkirk_(1958_film)

Starring John Mills, Richard Attenborough and Bernard Lee

And my late father, who was doing his National Service at the time and was nailed as one of the extra's as his outfit still had 1940s pattern uniform and webbing. According to him the only close up of him was from the rear as one of the soldiers praying on the beach when Bernard Lee cops it.

[marylobster]

Have anybody seen this film already?

As for me, it is hard to imagine a better tribute to this victory of survival than Nolan's spare, stunning, extraordinarily ambitious film.

And what do you think?

[GeeRam]

All-in-all, it made me decide to watch the original movie again. I was living in Ramsgate when they made that film and they used the harbour entrance for some shots, complete with sand bags, barbed wire and AA guns.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunkirk_(1958_film)

Starring John Mills, Richard Attenborough and Bernard Lee

Its currently showing on ITV4 right now...:ok:

[keith williams]

Whatever faults this film may have, it will ensure that many thousands (perhaps millions) more people will know something of what happened at Dunkirk that year. We old folks may imagine that everyone knows our history, but that really is not the case. And the youngsters will not spot the many minor errors.

[Two's in]

1. Documentary - A movie or a television or radio program that provides a factual record or report.

2. Cinema - The art of simulating experiences to communicate ideas, stories, perceptions, feelings, beauty or atmosphere by the means of recorded or programmed moving images along with other sensory stimulation.

3. Train Upholstery - See Asperger's Syndrome.

[212man]

1. Documentary - A movie or a television or radio program that provides a factual record or report.

2. Cinema - The art of simulating experiences to communicate ideas, stories, perceptions, feelings, beauty or atmosphere by the means of recorded or programmed moving images along with other sensory stimulation.

3. Train Upholstery - See Asperger's Syndrome.

Thanks. I have just walked out of the cinema and was about to post something on similar lines, but it would not have been as well written.

[Pontius Navigator]

GR thank you, and don't they look clean and shaved :)

[Tankertrashnav]

Just watched the old film again on TV - terrific. In the commercial break they had a trailer for the new one. Well as I haven't seen the new one I cant comment on it overall, but certainly the beaches looked incredibly bare in the new one compared with the original. Where did that £150m go? Certainly not on hiring extras, or on spending half an hour sourcing period railway carriages (oops, my Aspergers is showing again!)

[Alber Ratman]

My old man was on of the extras used on the original. Easy when there was so many National Servicemen going through training.

[Phil_R]

I'm young enough that 60s railway carriages were significantly out of use before I became a regular train rider, and it jarred with me too. It looked wrong and I suspect it would be seen as looking wrong by many people without direct experience of 1940s or 1960s trains.

It looked to have the same issue as Top Gun in that some of those engagements were very close for a very long time without significant exchange of fire. Also, the maneuvers executed by the aircraft involved seemed very gentle and undemanding, compared to real world gun camera footage of the time.

That may be an instance of reality being unrealistic (http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/RealityIsUnrealistic), but as a lay observer I'd echo the comments about this given above. Wouldn't those aircraft have been more or less wings-vertical, pulling like hell? Is this a limit on what you can reasonably do with eighty-year-old aircraft?

P

[Flying Binghi]

I'm young enough that 60s railway carriages were significantly out of use before I became a regular train rider, and it jarred with me too. It looked wrong and I suspect it would be seen as looking wrong by many people without direct experience of 1940s or 1960s trains.

It looked to have the same issue as Top Gun in that some of those engagements were very close for a very long time without significant exchange of fire. Also, the maneuvers executed by the aircraft involved seemed very gentle and undemanding, compared to real world gun camera footage of the time...



Oh well, looks like I'd better wait a few years until the computer graphics enhanced version comes out... actually, in a few years me video player would probably be so good that I could specify the train seats are apolstered in lion skin and it'd probably look real...:)

From talking to a couple of the WW2 old timers they reckon we is lucky to not have smello-vision in the cinema because apparently that's what a lot of the combatants remember all to well..





.

[Pontius Navigator]

FB, smellies indeed. At several air shows they would ask to look in the Lanc, they would close their eyes and take a huge sniff before saying the smell of leather, hydraulic fluid, and other visitor odours had not changed.

I guess smell must be one of the most significant in the brain store. The other thing missing in cinema is touch. In this case rough, wet and heavy serge with ingrained sand.

[PPRuNeUser0211]

Phil_R - benign fights are the price you pay for using real life a/c. Personally I'd rather that and little CGI rather than have the whole thing CGI'd to death. Just my preference though. However, your observation is correct, it was benign by comparison to the real thing.

[Danny42C]

Phil_R (#113)
...Is this a limit on what you can reasonably do with eighty-year-old aircraft?..
Had a look at the (one and only) BBMF Hurricane some 50 years ago when it was overnighting at Leeming (?) prior to a display.

Every free square inch of the panel had a little red metal label on it: don't do this, don't do that, don't exceed 220 IAS and Lord knows what else. And the 'old' lady was only 30-odd years old then ! Even the ones I briefly flew at Castle Combe in 1942 were clapped-out and we were told to treat them gently.

Danny42C.

[Treble one]

Phil_R - benign fights are the price you pay for using real life a/c. Personally I'd rather that and little CGI rather than have the whole thing CGI'd to death. Just my preference though. However, your observation is correct, it was benign by comparison to the real thing.


I think part of the reason for the apparently benign dogfights was the presence of bloody great IMAX camera on the wings of one or more of the aircraft? Possibly anyway?

[Training Risky]

I was disappointed in the first 2 seconds to see the words "the enemy have pursued the British and French to Dunkirk". I felt the same when I went to see AVM Keith Park's statue when it was on the fourth plinth in Trafalgar Square a few year ago. His inscription went: "The defender of London, as enemy planes bombed in 1940...etc". I remember at the time thinking how confused young people would look and wonder who the enemy were...IRA? ISIS? Love Island?

That said, harrumphing dribble over, it was very moving and my kids were impressed. The gliding Spitfire at high key for a PFL moved at about Mach 2, but never mind.

Did Tom Hardy have sun deflectors / blinkers on his flying helmet?

[Treble one]

Watched the film again last night.


The camera shots in the dogfighting sequences (pointing from the 'Spitfire' towards either the 'He111' or the 'Me109') showed the 'Spitfire' in question wasn't a spitfire (it was a Yak I believe).


Nolan wanted to actually show the Spitfire pilots 'in the air' during the aerial and so converted the rear cockpit of a Yak (to make it look like a Spitfire) to make it look so.


Its a shame he couldn't have used one of the many two seat Spitfires around to do this. Indeed the Aircraft Restoration Co (who provided and maintained the flying aircraft) have their own 2 seater.


I guess the practicalities made it difficult-either that or they were making too much dosh flying well heeled members of the public.

[hoodie]

A 2 seat Spitfire wouldn't have had space for the enormous Imax cameras that were used, and mounting one externally would have needed structural modifications to an historic aircraft - unlikely to be agreed to by the owner; I know I wouldn't!

https://farm8.static.flickr.com/7470/27871877354_83a9f2b939_b.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v634/Mark12/Album%202/Dunkirk%20Yakfire%20IMG_5370_N699DP_Yakovlev_Yak-52TW_Lelystad_18_juli_2016_zpsagjfqmkg.jpg

[Pontius Navigator]

I was disappointed in the first 2 seconds to see the words "the enemy have pursued the British and French to Dunkirk". I felt the same when I went to see AVM Keith Park's statue when it was on the fourth plinth in Trafalgar Square a few year ago. His inscription went: "The defender of London, as enemy planes bombed in 1940...etc". I remember at the time thinking how confused . . .


TR, as far as BoB was concerned ENEMY was the correct description.

Il Duce?s Blitz ? Italy?s Forgotten Role in the Battle of Britain ? MilitaryHistoryNow.com (http://militaryhistorynow.com/2013/11/13/il-duces-blitz-italys-role-in-the-battle-of-britain/)

PN

[Training Risky]

Thanks PN, I had forgotten about the Italians in the BofB. At the risk of being pedantic can I claim that my point about AVM Park still stands as the Falco et al did not bomb London and barely made it to Harwich, Felixtowe and Kent?;)

At your link:
Germany’s disappointing air war over England was already drawing to a close by the time the Italian contingent entered the fray.

[ExGrunt]

Well it is not the 1958 film, BUT I was over in the States and saw it in a cinema there and at the end the audience got up and applauded. I thought that was quite remarkable for a film about events that had no US involvement at all.

So while we can quibble, as a piece of cinema it does appear to be achieving the aim of bringing the memory of this very gallant effort to a new audience.

[Bull at a Gate]

Saw it last night. I thought it a very good, but harrowing, movie. So what if there were a few matters of inaccuracy about relatively unimportant matters?

Interestingly, the thread on this topic over in Jet Blast has a lot more complaints than here. I wonder why?

[Basil]

I think if it had been realistic it would have been a lot more harrowing and I concur that they should have left the air to air gunnery out if it couldn't at least make a stab at realism.
For those reading who are not mil trained pilots: it's going to be 6g left 80 deg bank to 6g right 80deg bank in 0.5 sec. + Derry turns + anything else which was used in dogfighting in 1940.
Anyway, my wife pointed out out that most of the audience probably thought that was 'real' aviation warfare and things happen real slow :rolleyes:

I couldn't understand why the patrol was hanging around at 500ft. Probably something I don't understand.