BBC FTL's MIDDLE EAST

[poohpooh1]

Hey guys,

I'm a broadcast journalist with the BBC. I'm really keen to speak with/ hear from pilots in the Middle East, specifically, regarding your experiences with FTL's, rosters and fatigue.

Obviously if you speak with me it will be under complete anonymity.

My email address is: orla.o'[email protected]

Cheers,

Orla O’Brien

[Dildobaggins]

Unfortunately 99% of the people on here just like to cry and moan but don't have the balls to actually do anything about it. Let the complaining begin....

[TOGA Thrust]

I see another journalist looking for a story and a source. There is so much I could show and tell but won't. Who can you trust these days? But I would offer any journalist some guiding words if the truth is what they truly seek.

So. What I would say to Orla?

I'm glad to see the BBC taking an interest in FTL's, rosters and fatigue in general and in particular the Middle East.

I think it would help if you could lay out your stall and objective. Where are you going with this?

FTL's are a complex issue, laid down legally by authorities, much of which makes little logical sense and vague enough to allow operators to step nimbly around the law to derive the maximum productivity from their crews often with little regard of their actual fitness to fly.

I would advise you do some research into what are the actual laws. You cannot begin to write until you understand them, at least in principle. Do you understand the difference between Duty Time, Flight Duty Time, Stick Time, Rest Time, Travel Time etc.? Do you understand fatigue reporting and processing? Do you understand the difference between being tired and being fatigued? Would you prefer a tired pilot to a fatigued one? Do you understand the overlap between Aviation Law and Employment Law? And do you appreciate the spirit of the law?

You cannot challenge the law itself unless you understand it. And no operator is stupid enough to simply break the law. If you are looking for evidence of this you will struggle to find it. When something goes wrong they will state for the public that they are acting within the law. And they are. Satisfied all go about their business without wondering if the law itself is reasonable. Perhaps look at the legal intentions.

I would also caution you fromlooking at isolated instances from pilots. Many pilots themselves often do not understand the law or the nuances of FTL's and wind up making embarrassing and technically inaccurate claims that the authorities or airlines put down without breaking a sweat. Pilots make poor legal representatives however tired they may be. If you want data it's out there. You must know where to look. You must do your homework not leave it only to the pilots to produce the material that is frequently a small glimpse of a larger issue. You must then compile the data into a meaningful, accurate article not one filled with irrelevant quotes, blurry faces and robotic voice distortion, dramatic as it all may be.

I don't know how often I hear pilots complaining of the hardships of 100 hour rosters. I can show you 100 hour rosters that would be a dream and 80 hour rosters that would be a nightmare. As a broad rule you should look at Duty Time. That is a better measure of how tired or fatigued one may be. It is after all time on the job that counts. Then look at how this duty time is constructed and what safeguards there are. That may raise an eyebrow.

Challenge who makes the law and who lobbies for law change. Then you are beginning to scratch the surface. Bear in mind that much of the Aviation Law in the Middle East is derived directly from European Aviation Law. So it must be ok right? I mean Brussels would get it right wouldn't they? Answerable politicians, transparent lawmaking, no lobbying allowed, sensible advise from impartial "experts"...

It might be a good start to go closer to home. Your own BALPA had huge issues with EASA changes to FTL's and in my opinion with good reason. But ultimately they lost and the LCC's got their way pleasing the public with better profits and lower fares. All great until it goes horribly wrong and people die but everyone can claim they were "operating within the legal guidelines." so it must have been those reckless, careless pilots. While the FAA were making more restrictive FTL's the Europeans were relaxing the rules allowing more airline self governance. Ring any bells?

On top of this all think of the application of the law. The clue's in the name: FT Limitations. Show me an operator who is appreciably more restrictive than the absolute limits. Do you conduct your life at the limits in every aspect? I doubt it. You would be quickly killed, die, burn out, or get old and sick before your time. Do you run your machinery at the absolute limits? In aviation at least that aspect is frowned upon. It's odd that principle doesn't propagate throughout all the operation.

Actually I'm amazed there are not more nasty occurrences in aviation but maybe there are and we simply don't get to see them for what they are.

In conclusion.

If you are looking for a quick piece for general public interest don't bother. You will either make a show of your lack of knowledge or be shot down quickly by the PR departments of airlines and the spin to the public who will only understand: "Those lazy pilots only have to fly 100 hours in 28 days. Us other mortals must work 160 so they are clearly underworked".

FTL's are the business of airlines and you better know your stuff before taking them on. It's a brave investigative journalist who does that in these days of 20 second attention spans and sound bites.

Good luck to you. I hope you get good sources and you can protect them. I hope you can portray the bigger problem rather that the isolated instances, illustrative as they may be. Will the BBC put the protection of their sources and the public before their economic interests? I'm a cynic when money is at play. It brings out the worst.

Don't be too hard on the Middle East. FTL's worldwide are a problem. But they are infinitely more dangerous in places where the lack of formal representation by the very people that experience the fatigue allows airlines to run unchecked. Perhaps ask a few lawmakers or airline managers when they last (or ever) flew a modern roster while they happily invoke the next modification, "variation" or "burn out policy".

To answer a general question: "Are there pilots being pushed beyond the limits of what is plainly sensible in terms of fatigue or health?" The answer is Yes. "Does this put the public at some level of reasonably avoidable risk?" Yes. It's been cried many times and glossed over.

There's never this much smoke without fire. Good luck in your quest. I look forward to reading some hard facts and truth in a real expose and having my faith in the BBC resorted as an impartial news agency.

[testpanel]

poohpooh1:

Why don't you just spend 1 month flying around the world with such a schedule, from checkin till checkout and not relaxing/drinkin in business...

It will be an eye opener.........

[sheikhmahandy]

Bravo TOGA for telling it like it is.👍👍

A sound analysis and good advice to the naive and miss informed outside of the industry!

Nice one Centurion ..........like it like it!!👏👏

[Whairdhugo]

Toga,

Hit the nail on the head. Well said.

[Bindair Dundat]

Brilliant post Toga. Utterly accurate and well written

[mhk77]

Pilots are their own worst enemies sometimes...........

[The.Humble.Guy]

https://youtu.be/eWNE2ih9wKY

Denzel Washington on the truth about reporting news... brilliant

[Talparc]

Great post TOGAThrust may I add a few things to your list.

GCAA and EK are controlled by the same person hence no real oversight from the authority

Under reporting of check in times beside slightly adjusted in AUG still not correct especially as outstation check in time has not changed at all. Also see WSJ Article.

Sim and Training events not counted towards Flight Duty which leads easily to busting the 900h yearly limit together with the mentioned factoring.

Threatening company culture which undermines the fatique reporting system.

Roster compression, Reduction of off days, Ridiculous short layovers, Flying East-West without any acknowledgement of body clock, not granting leave, off days filled up with online learning,
monthly target increased to now 95h, forcing pilots to fly even when sick ...

And yes the ME Airlines have a huge problem, following ICAO Regulation hence overworking their crews,
treating crew like slaves and endangering safety for the sake of unfair competition and profit.

2 accidents in a years time speak volumes what is going on here!

[gatbusdriver]

I don't often persevere with such a long post on here..........but bravo. A true grip of the issues at hand.

I am also in agreement with not being so hard on the ME. I have gone 'fatigued' here, filled in the report and heard nothing else about it, yet take a look at what happened to a TCX Captain at home!

Regards,

GBD

[Consol]

Excellent post TOGA thrust.

[Talparc]

Interesting stuff on fatique issue:

http://www.balpa.org/About/Files/M-Simkins-vs-Thomas-Cook-Airlines-Ltd-ET-Judgment.aspx

https://www.balpa.org/Media-Centre/Press-Releases/Airline-pilot-wins-major-legal-victory-on-fatigue#.WFA57kcbWqc.facebook

[Gulfstreamaviator]

Good luck BBC...........xBBC...

[rumbpilot]

The most obvious way to describe in an effective and truthful way the very serious problem of pilot fatigue to the general public would be to simply join a pilot for an entire block of duties during a busy roster period. Just follow him/her from leaving home to getting back home. The key is the pilot should not be chosen by the airline, it should be the pilots to send copies of their rosters to the journalist and invite him/her to join for ablock of duties which is truly representative of the toughest blocks he/she is used to fly.
My suggestion is: ask all low cost airlines in europe to let you follow a pilot in his/her duties for an entire block of duties next summer, adding that they should let their pilots know about the initiative so you can talk to them see their rosters and choose a block that is really representative of a potential fatigue situation. If the reply will be "no" then ask why and discuss.

[Officer Kite]

If the reply will be "no" then ask why and discuss.

It will be no and they will simply state security regulations or make up something else, not difficult to reject at all.

[recall_checked]

Can I suggest focussing on FTLs in your own neck of the woods? Europe as had a massive change to the FTL rules, for the worse. Type BALPA Wake Up in any search engine. A poster above has given you a start on some links.

You'll have a lot more success in your story than trying to take down a Sheik.

Good luck with your story. I genuinely hope it gets a lot of attention and you can help us change ridiculous laws.

[harry the cod]

Agree with recall.

EK has new rules and guidelines being introduced from Jan 1st which not only clarify long range operations and provide clear, unambiguous definitions of layover timings and crew compliments, but also include reduced limits on cabin crew hours.

Surprisingly, these new rules are actually more restrictive than previous. That's NOT the direction the European authorities are heading so maybe an investigation closer to home may prove more beneficial and news worthy.

Harry

[TOGA Thrust]

Harry check your facts:

Duty time in 28 days did indeed drop. But think of it, its almost impossible to do 200 hours in 28 days. That is a whole week of hours (40) more than the average joe in an office is required to work, and that person at least has a routine and is not working at all hours of day or night across multiple time zones.

What was limiting them was the 14 day limit of 105 which they have INCREASED to 115. Basically a 10% increase! Why do this? Simple, for the same reason they stopped days off after leave for pilots: They plan to make them work their leave back by compressing duty into the remaining days in the month, and the only way to do that is to increase the duty time. Flying is not an issue.

Poor cabin crew don't even know this has happened. Hardly notified and few avenues for formal comment. No one has even provided a basis or justification for increasing Duty Time by a full 10%.

Assuming they get only 2 days off in 14 (where most office workers here get 4 or 2 weekends), the CC will have to work almost 10 hours a day every day, at any time, on any clock.

Brings on visions of sweatshops for poor women in Victorian London.....

[glofish]

Are you only surprised yet?

Cheating is very much part of the local culture, just look at the lame excuse for not incorporating EK employees into the local work rules and law.

In any other part of the world this would be called blatant discrimination.
I challenge anyone applying the same to any local hero working abroad, he'd be on his way to the Human Rights Court the next second ......

[Nikita81]

You should call the journalist, introduce yourself and tell her everything you write here under your real name, glofish. Oh, wait.

[notapilot15]

Orla,

Why is the sudden interest on this topic? Is this because somebody's temporary employment contract coming to an end?

BBC never showed interest on FTLs/FDTLs even after Fly Dubai accident and Emirates operational incident. Why now?

No wonder people now believe Fake News more so than Main Stream Media.

[anson harris]

I know it's not summer yet, but is the sun getting to you all? All you guys ever complain about is fatiguing rosters and now you have an opportunity to give the matter some prominence, you complain!

[SilverSeated]

I know it's not summer yet, but is the sun getting to you all? All you guys ever complain about is fatiguing rosters and now you have an opportunity to give the matter some prominence, you complain!

I agree with what Anson says...

777 rosters in EK are a unique mix of short and long haul rarely seen outside the ME, therein lies the problem. Written laws on FTL's are not cognisant of the reality and therefore stupid levels of fatigue experienced by the average EK 777 pilot.

I know the 380 guys are flying similar hours, but its a different operation entirely and cannot be compared to the 777. Its all legal on paper, but the reality tells a different story.

Orla I wish you luck in your research, any publicity/expose will be well received by the pilot fraternity out here.

Getting them to speak is another story!

Why is the sudden interest on this topic? Is this because somebody's temporary employment contract coming to an end?
BBC never showed interest on FTLs/FDTLs even after Fly Dubai accident and Emirates operational incident. Why now?
No wonder people now believe Fake News more so than Main Stream Media.

I think you'll find the BBC is one of the few credible sources of mainstream media left, not sure what your point is...and if you really are not a pilot why would you care?

[airtractor]

Orla,

Why is the sudden interest on this topic? Is this because somebody's temporary employment contract coming to an end?

BBC never showed interest on FTLs/FDTLs even after Fly Dubai accident and Emirates operational incident. Why now?

No wonder people now believe Fake News more so than Main Stream Media.
Emirates spin doctors did a great job if even pilots on this forum are calling this "crash landing " an "operational incident"...

[Talparc]

Why the interest?
Just keep on knocking on their doors!

[notapilot15]

I think you'll find the BBC is one of the few credible sources of mainstream media left, not sure what your point is...and if you really are not a pilot why would you care?

Well if BBC want to be credible they should do little better than RT. Same goes for CNN and others. Being tight lipped after selective operational incidents is clear indication they are not credible.

My point, the day after alleged rumor out about alleged exit of some one, BBC comes out of the woodwork researching about FDLs/FDTLs/pilot fatigue in ME. Didn't they knew what their fellow Sirs were doing? His planned exit will result in minimum $4B/year loss to British economy. Sour grapes???

[Stuart Sutcliffe]

... the day after alleged rumor out about alleged exit of some one, BBC comes out of the woodwork researching about FDLs/FDTLs/pilot fatigue in ME. Didn't they knew what their fellow Sirs were doing? His planned exit will result in minimum $4B/year loss to British economy. Sour grapes???
Forgive me for not understanding this, but who is the person being referred to here, and how is he connected to the subject of this thread?

[Aluminium shuffler]

The BBC are anything but credible. Their left/liberal bias pervades their news casting, and the arrogance of their editors when questioned about their biases is staggering. They're not known as the Blair or Brussels Broadcasting Corporation for nothing. Their charter should have been stripped years ago.

[crewmeal]

Careful you guys are not lured into a honey trap and recorded with a pinhole camera, then feature on Panorama. That seems to the way to get famous these days.

[Aluminium shuffler]

The Ryanair pilots who were interviewed for Dutch TV with disguised voices and out of focus (even put hats on them) were quickly identified...

[anson harris]

Their left/liberal bias
Interchangeable with "right wing/Government bias" depending on whom you're speaking to. As news outlets go, they're amongst the least bad. Try Fox news if you want something you agree with or perhaps just stick to the Mail Online?

[Nikita81]

Why should I care to explain, Aluminium, when you don't? :) Who identified those pilots and how? Were they identified just via their on-screen appearance or some insader gave away their identity? You sound like you want to scare away people from contacting the journalist by basing your arguments on spreading the irrational fear. That's why I laughed.

[SilverSeated]

My point, the day after alleged rumor out about alleged exit of some one, BBC comes out of the woodwork researching about FDLs/FDTLs/pilot fatigue in ME. Didn't they knew what their fellow Sirs were doing? His planned exit will result in minimum $4B/year loss to British economy. Sour grapes???

Might want to get yourself a tin hat there!

Minimum $4B/year, just like that with STC's exit...you really believe EK means that much in the bigger picture of the British economy? Let alone to warrant the BBC running an expose to counteract this loss!

If so maybe we should start look at moving our pension funds, wouldn't want them tanking due to STC's retirement!

[notapilot15]

Might want to get yourself a tin hat there!

Minimum $4B/year, just like that with STC's exit...you really believe EK means that much in the bigger picture of the British economy? Let alone to warrant the BBC running an expose to counteract this loss!

If so maybe we should start look at moving our pension funds, wouldn't want them tanking due to STC's retirement!

Apart from skilled pilots and cabin crew, do you think any airline would hire unskilled middle management without particular figure head at the top. No.

Most of EK's PR/Marketing/Brand Image Management dollars are making their way to mother land. This will disappear rather quickly.

It is wise to spend $3B/yr on pilot, cabin crew perks or customer amenities rather than paying Digital Influencers (AKA internet trolls) to build artificial company's image. Didn't work so far, not going to work in future.

If revenue stream from EK didn't mean that much why give KBE? Didn't do anything for aviation, other than making Boeing/Airbus designers lazy.

In hindsight without STC buying VLAs in bulk, Boeing and Airbus designers would have worked hard to build Low CASM Small Capacity (Ultra)Long Range aircraft which lot of airlines could use.

That aviation innovation is delayed by few decades.

[framer]

Some of those amongst us have lost touch with reality.

[poohpooh1]

Hi guys,

Thank you so much for all of your posts, they've been really helpful.

I fully understand the level of hesitation involved in contacting me.

I would like to reiterate and reassure you that if you do get in touch, it will be under complete anonymity.

Many thanks,

Orla

[OzoneAddict]

Crew be cautious at these times what you post here. If you do decide to email Orla, try verify that he is indeed BBC, I see the location for his post is Birmingham which is BBC Office in The MAILBOX. However BBC head office in in Portland London 0844 453 0231.

Set up anonymous Email and do not email not from your Devices or Home PC etc.etc. Best to use an internet cafe, Reminder that in 2011 a few QATAR pilots were exposed via PPRUNE forced to give there details and your details at PPRUNE may have IP and source info?

[OzoneAddict]

This was a great victory in UK for Pilots- worldwide knock-on effects, Airline management will be working hard on counter measures, perhaps they will defeat us next round, if only we (pilots) could but stand united.

https://www.balpa.org/Media-Centre/Press-Releases/Airline-pilot-wins-major-legal-victory-on-fatigue

http://www.economist.com/blogs/gulliver/2016/12/flying-red-eye


FOR YOUR OWN BENEFIT MATE!! News from down under-

https://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2016/12/14/landmark-uk-fatigue-ruling-affect-australian-airline-pilots/


http://atwonline.com/labor/thomas-cook-pilot-wins-fatigue-tribunal-case

[ruserious]

OzoneAddict, I think you will find Orla is not a HIM, but a her

[Superpilot]

FTLs not FTL's

Thank you.

[poohpooh1]

Hey guys,

Thanks again for all of your responses.

Just to clarify - I work for BBC Newsnight.

I have set up an account on Threema, which is a totally anonymous means of contacting me, for those who are nervous regarding contacting me via email. You can speak with me on there under total anonymity.

All you need to do is go to the apple app store and download Threema.

My user ID is: N6C3R3ES.

FYI: https://www.eff.org/node/82654

Many thanks,

Orla

[Aluminium shuffler]

Any email system can be traced, and that will put some guys off. For those who want to participate but are worried about being tracked, Orla, why not have an address where they can post a pen and paper letter to you with whatever they want to say; they can post that from anywhere on the planet and it becomes untraceable if they want to go to the extent of wearing gloves to keep fingerprints off the paper (our prints are all on record here). As I said before, the RYR guys that co-operated with the Dutch TV programme were given up to RYR when the company threatened legal action. I don't think anyone would believe any assurances the BBC gave them over anonymity, at least I hope not - the BBC, despite having many fine employees, has repeatedly demonstrated it has its own agenda and that it is less than scrupulous.

Personally, I think a programme about ME FTLs is missing the point - they are significantly more conservative than EASA FTLs, and the pressure applied to crews to use Commander's Discretion or Reduced Rest is less than in EU low cost airlines. Their behaviour is far more worthy of your time.

[Talparc]

Orla, go a head. You will discover a lot of irregularities in the ME Airlines.
All of them are abusing the system and the non protective environment makes things even worse. It's all about profit nobody cares about safety and their employees.
Even worse is that the authorities support this behaviour as they are far from being independent.
Good luck and hope some good reports from your side will put a public light on what's going on here and in general in the aviation.

[Aluminium shuffler]

Talparc, that is also true of the European locos, hence my comments above, and it's arguably more relevant to the UK audience.

[Talparc]

Aluminium shuffler, I agree to your post!
But still it stands that in the ME the situation is much more difficult to be addressed.
At least in Europe the Unions still try to tackle the problem beside their success is not as good as it should be.
Remember the EK 521 trip which used to be totally illegal but got changed only after the WSJ Media Campaign.
So the Media can be helpful to increase pressure.

[harry the cod]

Talparc

You're all mouth and no trousers. If you're so concerned with ME airlines, why don't YOU contact the journalist and give him the juicy details? I'll bet you my 50' Sunseeker and Bentley Mulsanne you don't. You come on these forums like a stuck record with your constant whinging and moaning about ME carriers and how badly you and every other employer is treated. Yet, you're still here. Why?

Whilst there are undoubtedly issues here, I can guarantee you that there are far bigger fish to fry around the World, some of which are indeed unionised and based in Europe!

Maybe you should focus your frustrations close to home.

Harry

[in freedom]

Harry, I would like to call your cards on this one. If you are a man of honor then you owe Talparc your 50' Sunseeker and Bentley Mulsanne. I have it in writing before me that he is in contact with Orla and has shared a great deal of evidence. As have I.

Some of us are putting on the fight beyond this forum. No need to badmouth us.

[notapilot15]

Come on guys, losing the only last skill you have. As other members already noted, her not him, FTLs not FTL's.

[Talparc]

Harry, beside I really respected most of your posts so far but this time I think you went too far!
Iam not frustrated at all, I just have a different agenda in working on important issues arising from the ME system in destroying employees and once great companies while at the same time compromising safety.
As I have for sure more time on my fleet available then you doing night TAs, yes I am engaged with a lot of activites talking to Media, Governments, Unions to work on a bigger picture in improving Pilots lives and passenger safety.
At times when still the health of Pilots get destroyed by profit driven companies.
PM me and I will share my success with you.
As I don't need your yacht ( have 2 myself 42' ,30' ) I would definitely take the Bentley provided the license plate Nr. is good enough for me.

[Plane and simple]

( have 2 myself 42" ,30" )

Talparc, FYI " = inches, and ' = feet. I guess you were brought up metric!

Orla (who is most definitely a HER), Sláinte. Good luck with your investigations.

[777boyindubai]

https://www.theguardian.com/help/2016/sep/19/how-to-contact-the-guardian-securely

Some good tips here on how to keep safe on the net.

[Wizofoz]

All you need to do is go to the apple app store and download Threema.


And if you don't have an Apple?

[propaganda]

Buy one they're a superior product.:ok:

[ExDubai]

And if you don't have an Apple?
Also available for Android and Windowsphones.

[poohpooh1]

Hey guys,

Thanks so much for all of your posts.

Still keen to hear from people...

Many thanks,

Orla

[d6181w]

Interesting thread. If you gave them an address, maybe they could write to you with their thoughts the old fashioned way and retain anonymity? Would be great to see a documentary on everything we hear about it out there.....not to mention treatment of labourers (vis a visa the guardian reporters) and cabin crew difficulties.

[poohpooh1]

Hi,

As I stated previously, anyone who speaks with me - it will be under total anonymity.That is a guarantee from me.

I am using the app threema, mentioned above, which allows people to contact me under total anonymity.

This is my address should anyone with to write to me.

BBC Newsnight, Zone D, 3rd Floor, BBC Broadcasting House, Portland Place, London, UK, W1A 1AA

Many thanks,

Orla

[Deep and fast]

Orla, as much as I would like to see you bring the evil Mid East slave trader to book, there is also the blatant fatigue causing rosters in U.K. Companies. Easy pilots voted to push for industrial action based solely on fatigue. This is a CAA approved company with an approved SMS and fatigue monitoring system in place. Which based on the employees votes were totally unfit for purpose.
Thomas cook pilot wins tribunal with regard to reporting a fatigue enducing roster.
It's happening in the uk and the authorities will only act in hindsight.

Go to Gatwick and start asking awkward questions then speak to line pilots, because the lazy regulators certainly don't go out on the line anymore.

[Mr Angry from Purley]

Deep N Fast
Still think Mr TC was not suffering from "fatigue" but "sleepiness" (the need to sleep) there is a subtle but important difference...And the issue was just as much about "bent" block times.
My personal experience remains neutral e.g. 50% Pilot induced problems, 50% Company / Rostering type problems.
Might be a different split down at Gatwick!

[Talparc]

For a little side view, here is a study of fatigue within EU Airlines

https://www.vcockpit.de/fileadmin/dokumente/presse/2016/LSE-Report.pdf

[onlythetruth]

Why are you bothering with the middle east? would appear someone has had the balls to stand up and be counted over in the UK http://www.pprune.org/rumours-news/588078-pilot-fatigue-victory-sorts.html

[Teapot Rebellion]

Any news on this investigation? All seems to have gone quiet.

[richard III]

somewhat not surprised....

[Whippersnapper]

Any news on this investigation? All seems to have gone quiet.

That's because no-one would give juicy comments to be quoted, and because writing an article criticising EASA FTLss, now amongst the worst on the planet, and the highly corrupt reasons and methods behind their implementation, goes against every fibre of the BBC's hysterical anti-Brexit policy.

[Talparc]

If something goes quiet it means nothing good.
But be assured all still going on, lots of research been done in the background.