RAF Halton to close

[HectorusRex]

MESSAGE FROM THE CHAIRMAN

On the 9th December 2016 we were formally advised that RAF Halton will close by 2022.
The run down is planned to occur in three phases before disposal of the site as an RAF Station.

a. Phase 1 - Airfield disposal.
b. Phase 2 - Relocation of School of Recruit Training and Airmans' Command School to RAF College Cranwell.
c. Phase 3 - Relocation / rationalisation of Lodger Units.

As the plans evolve over the coming months your Council will keep you informed of the impact for the Association.

[aw ditor]

Chairman of ............. ?

[wub]

The Council?

[Dave Clarke Fife]

I understand that 613 Sqn has all ready ceased flying but if Halton closes, and the airfield is first in line to be disposed of, where does this leave RAFGSA and HAC and those microlights (if indeed these machines still inhabit Halton) that were there on the opposite side of the hangar from HAC's airframes?

[RAFEngO74to09]

From the Chairman of the RAF Halton Apprentices Association.

RAFHAAA Page (http://www.oldhaltonians.co.uk/)

[Tashengurt]

There we go. Every station I served at (not many admittedly) will be gone.

[JimmAttrill]

Me too. Halton, where I started, was the last one left.

[Basil]

Recollect, many years ago, being made aware that being a 'Brat' was a position of engineering pride and Halton had much to be proud of in the quality and high achievement of the men trained there.
Country's going to the dogs!

[Saintsman]

After basic training at Swinderby, I did an 8 week trade course at Halton (Rapide Block was my home), followed by a 4 week aircraft type course and I landed on my first squadron on my 17th birthday.

So I'll say that the training was good and it's done me well since.

[Oldlae]

I went to RAF Halton in September 1955 as a an Apprentice Engine Fitter in the 81st Entry and left after graduation in July 1958. What incredible training, which did me no harm in civvy street as a helicopter engineer with Bristow.

[iRaven]

The Ministry of Defence is to close RAF Halton within six years the Ministry of Defence has confirmed.

Following November’s announcement that RAF Halton would be one of 91 military sits that the MOD would be disposing of by 2040, the Defence Secretary, Sir Michael Fallon has confirmed.

Sir Michael confirmed the move in a letter to Aylesbury MP David Lidington.

The decision is part of the MOD’s ‘Better Defence Estate’ Strategy, tasked with getting the most from the UK’s defence estate and contributing to the government’s housing target.

Mr Lidington expressed his disappointment at the news and questioned the business logic of the decision.

He commented: “I completely understand the reasons why the Ministry of Defence is seeking to rationalise its estate, concentrate its activities into fewer bases and realise the value of surplus land. I can understand too that from an RAF point of view it makes sense to co-locate the training of RAF officers and other ranks in one place.

“However, I find the business case for closing RAF Halton to be unconvincing. In particular, there will be a significant cost to providing new facilities at RAF Cranwell and the RAF has never in the past found a way in which to dispose of its significant liability in respect of Halton House.

“I’ve already spoken to the Defence Secretary Michael Fallon to make clear my concerns and to ask him to provide additional evidence to justify his decision.

“I’ve also pressed him for a commitment that if the closure does go ahead, the Ministry of Defence will do everything that it can to help civilian employees who may face redundancy to find alternative work.”
https://www.contracts.mod.uk/do-features-and-articles/raf-halton-to-close-completely-by-2022/

So it begins. Former RAF Bicester sold for £3.25M and Bentley Priory and its land was £12.4M. The Defence College of Technical Training cost £230M for phase 1 at former RAF Lyneham - which was just for the British Army's REME (the RN and RAF have now decided to stay put at HMS Sultan and RAF Cosford due to costs and not wanting all their eggs in one basket).

I think that David Lidington MP is spot on with his 'value for money' analysis. When RAF Halton's site was valued in total a couple of years ago it was around £40M and then I hear that what is needed at RAF Cranwell could be getting on towards £500M (twice the price of what they have done at Lyneham). So where is the sense in this - I can't imagine that Halton needs more than £40M spending on it to last many more years (even at DIO's favoured contractor's outrageous prices!). I suspect that the movement of Recruit training and SNCO/WO improvement training is someone's vanity project...it is quite simply unaffordable and unnecessary. Selling off packets of land at Halton could quite easily give the extra houses that the Aylesbury Vale District Council needs (which is around 700 if I recall correctly in their latest draft plan as they are already building significant numbers in the local area to meet the Government's housing targets).

Let's hope that Mr Lidington gets his financial review and we see sense prevail as we did eventually see at Lyneham - http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-wiltshire-34243439

iRaven

[turbroprop]

As an ex brat it is sad to see Halton close, but having visited Halton after the Apprenticeships finished, the soul had left the place.


iRaven when does the £500m price tag come from. It certainly did not cost much to move training from Swinditz to Halton.


Must be some expensive tarmac for a new drill square at Cranwell for the recruits to parade on.


Or are they going to build a little hill near Cranwell and move Pimple Point.

[iRaven]

Turboprop

- Accommodation blocks for ~600 recruits
- Accommodation blocks for ~150 NCO/WOs
- Classrooms for Recruit Training Sqn
- Classrooms for Airmans Command Sqn
- Recruits Mess
- Recruits support facilities building (laundry, tailoring, barbers, etc...)
- Medical facility to support an intake of 120 Recruits and the extra staff
- Recruits clothing stores (RAF Halton had the longest counter ever)
- Gym/sports facilities for both sqns
- SLA for the staff
- SFA for the staff (there is a MASSIVE shortage of quarters at Cranwell and the rest of Lincolnshire)
- Parade Square because there is a graduation parade every 2 weeks unlike the 6 monthly for officers
- Car parking for the extra 150 cars every 2 weeks for the Recruit's guests

Then we look at the reconfiguration of the RAF Cranwell site with new access roads, electrical supplies, sewerage, water pipes, etc...

Then there are architects' and planners' charges...

All that will cost between £400-£500M. We experienced similar eye-watering costs at the recent new builds at Lyneham and Worthy Down - just have a search on Google if you don't believe me.

Finally, if you thought Halton was falling to bits then take a look at Cranwell. That's in just a bad a state or worse!

iRaven

[iRaven]

PS. Moving from Swinditz to Halton was easy as the reconfiguration did not involve massive new builds. Whereas Cranwell will.

[Rigga]

The layout and costs of Halton are the issues. Its hard to secure - split into three areas between public roads. The airfield is too small to be of much military use. The main camp probably too hilly for many military uses. the upkeep of old buildings goes on, and on...
It holds many good memories but is past its usefulness.

[Al R]

I suggested to a client that if she really, really wanted to buy a few buy to lets next year, there'd possibly be worse places to consider than Sleaford..

[turbroprop]

Cheers iRaven


With your list there are lots of potential for cost over runs. Is there space at Sleaford Technical College for all that building. Might end up with a crazy situation like Scampton with accommodation at Kirton Lindsey. Now MOD is selling the army site at Grantham, my bet is it will re-sold back to MOD at highly inflated prices so that they could use the ex-accommodation. I woud propose they call the site RAF Spitalgate in honour of it last RAF function as a recruit training camp.


Another thought with another RAF facility moving to the Lincolnshire, how long before the slogan will be join the RAF and visit Lincoln, Sleaford, Boston and R and I in Skeggy.

[iRaven]

The layout and costs of Halton are the issues. Its hard to secure - split into three areas between public roads.

Rigga, you've obviously never been to Cranwell then. There is a public access road right through the middle of the camp, the airfield borders the A17 and a country B-road. At most the security fences are dry stone walls and only the College and Whittle Hall have anything like security fencing!

As for hills, High Wycombe and Northwood are both on hills and I am sure there are others...

As for the airfield at Halton, it is perfect for the sport aviation and gliding it supports - RAF Halton - Flying Info (http://www.raf.mod.uk/rafhalton/flyinginfo/) because it is way cheaper to run than a small MOB like Cranwell's airfield.

iRaven

[Bigbux]

Might be a bit difficult maintaining it as a camp with HS2 in the middle of it.

[Lima Juliet]

Bigbux

HS2 runs down the valley between Butlers Cross and Wendover - which is at least 3 miles from the camp. Compulsory purchase of property has already started along the route.

LJ

[Roadster280]

GBP500M?

That's insane. With all the military camps closing, many of them ex-RAF to boot, I can't help feeling that this is a gold-plated solution to a non-problem.

Half a billion pounds? To implement basic training and professional development on an existing station that already does the same basic functions?

It would be cheaper to take say Dishforth, completely level it (say 10M) and build a spanking new camp (say another 100M).

Or completely gut Scampton and rebuild it.

Half a billion pounds? Really???

[oldmansquipper]

Ah, more short term expediency no doubt.

Someone will have achieved (allegedly) a nice little promotion on the back of these cost savings. The developers (probably `Defence Consultants` in another life - again allegedly) will make a nice little profit when the MoD throws money back at restructuring the remaining locations later. In the meantime the perpetrators of these wonderful `save to spend` schemes will have moved onwards and upwards and will probably be commuting between Whitehall offices and country estates using HS2, 3 or 4.

Or perhaps I am just being a bit cynical?

[Lima Juliet]

£300-£400M is quite plausible.

Worthy Down cost £250M and that contract was awarded over 5 years ago: Worthy Down Barracks | Garrisons | Winchester-Garrison (http://www.winchester-garrison.co.uk/Winchester-Garrison/Worthy-Down-Barracks-04022015.htm)

Lyneham cost £230M and that was just the REME piece: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/dio-provides-a-new-training-facility-for-army-engineers

£42M for a single hangar for A400Ms: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/a400m-atlas-aircraft-maintenance-repair-and-overhaul-facility-completed-at-raf-brize-norton

£70M to build 322 families quarters: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/work-starts-on-322-new-army-family-homes-at-tidworth

£25M for demolition and then £142M for construction of the support building for F35 at Marham: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/mod-announces-investment-boost-for-the-home-of-the-uks-new-cutting-edge-aircraft

£20M to resurface just one runway at Valley: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/runway-resurfacing-underway-at-raf-valley

16x SLAM Blocks costs £77M at Brize (that would be roughly the amount needed at Cranwell): https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/486121/SLAM_A4_infographic__Final_.pdf

£18M to renovate and build a new annex for 51 Sqn and RJ: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/hrh-the-earl-of-wessex-opens-new-facilities-at-raf-waddington

Welcome to the world of defence infrastructure and so-called 'value for money'. :ugh:

LJ

[Roadster280]

It's taking the piss, quite frankly.

42M for a shed?

This is being vastly overthought. A military barracks is not a complex build. A series of one or two story buildings to standard designs. If they can build 322 houses for GBP70M, I rest my case.

Notwithstanding the option of rebuilding Scampton.

[Krystal n chips]

" Half a billion pounds? "

Well in that case, with the above figure in mind, I am sure the cost of the closing down party for all those who were incarcerated in the place will have been included in the budget....

[Heathrow Harry]

you mean some SURVIVED? That wasn't part of the plan.................

[Whopity]

As I understand it, Halton is still owned by the Rothschilds and under the original lease agreement has to be handed back in its original condition.

[Pegasus107]

As I understand it, Halton is still owned by the Rothschilds and under the original lease agreement has to be handed back in its original condition.

A bit like Wittering!!

[A and C]

Having seen the way the military do airworthiness a shed costing £42m sounds like someone is cutting corners with he oversight.

[Harley Quinn]

£300-£400M is quite plausible.

Worthy Down cost £250M and that contract was awarded over 5 years ago: Worthy Down Barracks | Garrisons | Winchester-Garrison (http://www.winchester-garrison.co.uk/Winchester-Garrison/Worthy-Down-Barracks-04022015.htm)

Lyneham cost £230M and that was just the REME piece: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/dio-provides-a-new-training-facility-for-army-engineers

£42M for a single hangar for A400Ms: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/a400m-atlas-aircraft-maintenance-repair-and-overhaul-facility-completed-at-raf-brize-norton

£70M to build 322 families quarters: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/work-starts-on-322-new-army-family-homes-at-tidworth

£25M for demolition and then £142M for construction of the support building for F35 at Marham: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/mod-announces-investment-boost-for-the-home-of-the-uks-new-cutting-edge-aircraft

£20M to resurface just one runway at Valley: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/runway-resurfacing-underway-at-raf-valley

16x SLAM Blocks costs £77M at Brize (that would be roughly the amount needed at Cranwell): https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/486121/SLAM_A4_infographic__Final_.pdf

£18M to renovate and build a new annex for 51 Sqn and RJ: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/hrh-the-earl-of-wessex-opens-new-facilities-at-raf-waddington

Welcome to the world of defence infrastructure and so-called 'value for money'. :ugh:

LJ

I have absolutely no liking of DIO, but given the examples LJ has listed above, does anyone have comparable costings for similar infrastructure projects?

[BATCO]

HQ
Not recent but in 1997 a type 4 cost approx 39,000GBP to build (assuming MOD owned land etc already).

So, for project above, 322 x SFA for 70M = 217k per house.

Inflation? 'Accounting'?

Regards
Batco

[BEagle]

Back in 1983, I was told that a cost assessment had been conducted, concerning the building of MQs at Ascension.

It was rejected due to the cost of £55K per unit. "How much?", asked someone who'd been involved.

"£55K"

"Well, that's interesting, because the actual figure we'd identified was £35K!"

Even then, there was some blatant nest-feathering going on, it would seem...

[Wander00]

Halton - Rothschilds - so many different stories maybe someone should get the original documents out of the archives. No doubt the Rothschilds will have their copies to hand

[chevvron]

As I understand it, Halton is still owned by the Rothschilds and under the original lease agreement has to be handed back in its original condition.
Yes. I remember back in the '90s when No 1 SoTT was being moved to Cosford and the proposal was to give Halton to the local council but it was pointed out to MOD that the Rothschild agreement still stood.
Also applies to Odiham by the way;if ever MoD cease to 'need it' the land must be handed back to the original landowners.

[turbroprop]

With such a large build at Cranwell. Taking planing, objections, lead time etc would it be practable to complete the work before Halton is due to close?

[Wander00]

Whopity/Chevvron - my understanding too (and Wyton btw) but would seem a good time for someone to check. 25 years ago there was an investment appraisal for Wyton that included ISTR several million pounds from selling off the airfield. AOC not impressed when Staish and I raised this issue, and suggested the appraisal was flawed

[The Nip]

This has been answered many times before. This post by LJ 3 Oct 16;

That's an utter myth. On Alfred de Rothschild’s death in January 1918, his nephew Lionel inherited Halton House and it’s lands. The Air Board were keen to purchase the estate as an officer cadet college for the nacent Royal Air Force which had been formed on 1 April from an amalgamation of the Royal Flying Corps and the Royal Naval Air Service. Fortunately, Lionel was a willing seller, as the house was the distasteful equivalent of 'Beckingham Palace' in the 1900s and the estate including Halton House was purchased by the War Office in 1919 for £112,000 FREEHOLD. The was about a quarter of the probate value of the estate; clearly a bargain for the War Office (now MOD).

[Proman]

Recently the workshops have been evacuated because of safety/structural issues with the roof. Ironically I believe it's because of failings in the laticed and longspan roof. These were built in a unique way by Italian POWs in 1918, and why the building(s) is/are listed. But clearly not maintained properly.

As a private citizen the council would serve an enforcement notice if I let a listed building I was responsible for fall into disrepair and disuse. One rule for me, but another for HMG who can ignore this and sell up, allowing bulldozers to solve the problem? This I believe is/was the start of the 'excuse' to sell the site follwojng the airfield annohncement last June. Farbeit to suggest deliberate failure to maintain the site, giving the sale excuse, for that would be criminal. Lets settle for negligent then. Who's to blame?

On another point, Halton is the Deferred Facility safety site for nearby Chequers. If the PM needs security, Halton House is the first choice and its physical security reflects this. It's also used for press conferences such as POTUS visits. So can the Aylesbury Holiday Inn expect a booking in future?!

Emotional, yes. I was born at Halton, and so was my Mother, first ever birth at the former hospital in 1922. The history of the Halton estate and its contribution to UK defence is great and also historic and emotional. However this is about neither of those. This is about practicality, location, resources and why once sold, this site, close to London, with extensive possibilities, can never be rebought. Cash in the bank is all the bean counters of this generation understand.

Isn't it about time we heard the views of the Staish? Or is there a political silence in place.

[Heathrow Harry]

But why does it have to be close to London?

[The Nip]

On another point, Halton is the Deferred Facility safety site for nearby Chequers. If the PM needs security, Halton House is the first choice and its physical security reflects this.

While there are better qualified people than me on this site, if there is one thing that isn't secure it is Halton. Not one part of the estate is secure from people walking around.

OTOH, HQ Air is now better, 1 site especially. Least you can't just walk through all the buildings.

[iRaven]

London?

When Uxbridge/Bentley Priory was closed and Northolt rammed packed out with Biz Jets, then Halton became the place for RAF ceremonial support. Recently that meant HM's Diamond Jubilee RAF contingent was based there and it will host the RAF100 contingent's effort in London. Further for Coronations and other such State ceremonial events then for the RAF then Halton has been key with large stocks of uniform, swords, drill instructors, life-support (accom, food and medical) and its location. Then it has been used for Op OLYMPICS in that it trained a large proportion (~2,500) of the Venue Security Force and then was home to the 600 or so that did venue security at Wembley Stadiium and Wembley Arena during the Olympics. It was also a hub with at least 10 or so fire engines for the recent fire strikes and provides a base for other resilience tasks. Many of these things, with the loss of Halton AND Henlow will mean that supporting such things will be difficult. A bus of 55 personnel can be in London inside an hour, whereas from Cranwell or Cosford it will be at least 3 hours each way!

That is why Halton's location near London is significant.

iRaven

[iRaven]

The Nip - "insecure" is not quite correct, some parts of Halton are more secure than others for the right reasons. Indeed, I would say that Halton is no less secure than Cranwell or Cosford.

[turbroprop]

Happy New Year iRaven, but I disagree about the bus in an hour. That would mean personnel on standby etc. In my time at Halton we were used for route lining etc in London and had plenty of notice cos we did a lot of practices before the day. Can or could be done easily from either Cosford or Sleaford Technical Coledge, just means leaving a bit earlier to get there.

Saddest loss for me with the closing of Halton is its historic link to the early days of the RAF and the formation of the apprenticeship system within the RAF. It was a sad day when the apprenticeship scheme finished but the world moves on.

I do agree about your comment regarding the old workshops and hopefully they will servive and be preserved. It would be a very sad loss if some of it did not remain. A link to the many thousands would started time in the RAF.

[Heathrow Harry]

I really don't think keeping a base open for the odd ceremonial/security detachment is a decent argument - sure as hell not one I'd like to take to the Treasury...........

[safetypee]

Nostalgia is a strong emotion. My good fortune was to attend both Trenchard 'mills', Halton and Cranwell.
There was something about the location of Halton which added to the spirit of the training system.
A pre-service visit to the then 'new' airframe workshop, the sight of real aircraft lined up, to be explored taken to pieces, the smell of hydraulics ... this was the place to be. Three years later with the arrival of the first Lightning instructional airframe ... I want to fly that.
Trenchard's legacy enabled both.

It's disappointing to see the concept of apprenticeship, technical and flying excellence in decline (military at least). This was central in the Trenchard idea; much of what remains of the RAF has been founded on this.
Modern management tends to focus on the near term, because the future is uncertain, costly, ...
There is a lack of vision; will constant reorganisation deliver the much needed military agility and flexibility often required in unforeseeable futures. Are the politicians dazzled by cost, or reacting to the reality of the modern world including economic constraint, all short term; the military leadership remains weak and fragmented, a pale shadow of the likes of Trenchard.

[Heathrow Harry]

They want to get elected - when any increase in taxes is screamed down by the Popular Press (both right & left of centre|) they are always under financial pressure

Now with social media the horizon narrows to next week if you are lucky - quite simply there are no votes in leadership or the long term

[NutLoose]

Harry while I agree, they bury the fact that it all comes at a cost.
Along the way, the fact it costs multi millions to both close a Station and rebuild the existing infrastructure at another station always seems to get lost in the finer details of the cost saving ( apparently ) announcement.

[chevvron]

Nostalgia is a strong emotion. My good fortune was to attend both Trenchard 'mills', Halton and Cranwell.
There was something about the location of Halton which added to the spirit of the training system.
A pre-service visit to the then 'new' airframe workshop, the sight of real aircraft lined up, to be explored taken to pieces, the smell of hydraulics ... this was the place to be. Three years later with the arrival of the first Lightning instructional airframe ... I want to fly that.
Trenchard's legacy enabled both.
I wonder what the 'old' and'new' workshops have been used for since No 1 SoTT moved out. Were all the airframes sold to private owners? I can remember being on the airfield to fly microlights and seeing numerous JPs and Gnats being dismantled and taken away.

[DON T]

I hope they leave a memorial on 'Passion Island'.��

[papa_sierra]

Homeless, and feeling let down. !!

http://i27.photobucket.com/albums/c170/papa_sierra/New%20Workshops.jpg (http://s27.photobucket.com/user/papa_sierra/media/New%20Workshops.jpg.html)

[zetec2]

Happy New Year PS, which one is you ??????

[glad rag]

Nostalgia is a strong emotion. My good fortune was to attend both Trenchard 'mills', Halton and Cranwell.
There was something about the location of Halton which added to the spirit of the training system.
A pre-service visit to the then 'new' airframe workshop, the sight of real aircraft lined up, to be explored taken to pieces, the smell of hydraulics ... this was the place to be. Three years later with the arrival of the first Lightning instructional airframe ... I want to fly that.
Trenchard's legacy enabled both.

It's disappointing to see the concept of apprenticeship, technical and flying excellence in decline (military at least). This was central in the Trenchard idea; much of what remains of the RAF has been founded on this.
Modern management tends to focus on the near term, because the future is uncertain, costly, ...
There is a lack of vision; will constant reorganisation deliver the much needed military agility and flexibility often required in unforeseeable futures. Are the politicians dazzled by cost, or reacting to the reality of the modern world including economic constraint, all short term; the military leadership remains weak and fragmented, a pale shadow of the likes of Trenchard.

Having been in the same training regimes ie No1 & 2 TT, I agree totally with all you have said.

It was VERY strange to attend ACTS with no technical trainees at Halton, yes many ghosts there indeed. And sadness too.

As a mech then FT I remember some outrageous weekends activity there and then there were the nurses, not easy to get into those social circles as a "trainee" but well worth the effort :ok:

What I cannot see is the cost for returning Halton Hall to it's original condition, strange that.

[ozleckie]

Homeless, and feeling let down. !!

These guys look suspiciously like 90th Entry

[chevvron]

613 VGS Disbandment Dinner to be held 11 Feb in Halton House.

[papa_sierra]

These guys look suspiciously like 90th Entry

Nope, yellow ribbon - 91st.

[zetec2]

Still don't see you PS ? on leave that day ?.

[sunshiner]

Phase 2 will be interesting - the 'interaction' between those young fine officers going through IOT and those young fine recruits undergoing recruit training. I wonder if all those 'under training' will also need to sign the 'refrain from sexual activity' certificate .....

[Melchett01]

Whopity/Chevvron - my understanding too (and Wyton btw) but would seem a good time for someone to check. 25 years ago there was an investment appraisal for Wyton that included ISTR several million pounds from selling off the airfield. AOC not impressed when Staish and I raised this issue, and suggested the appraisal was flawed

Wander00,

Wyton airfield has been sold and developers are in the midst of planning for 'Wyton Garden Village' which will apparently comprise 4,500 new homes, 10ha of land for employment opportunities, a village centre and green, schools etc etc. all on the former airfield site.

4,500 new homes plus all the rest? I didn't realise SLAM blocks were part of the Government's new house building plan!

[Warmtoast]

My only visit to Halton was in early 1959 when I had tests for possible Elephantiasis at the RAF Hospital there.
See Here (post #116):
http://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/577447-raf-gan-1958-later-6.html#post9375493

[Lima Juliet]

You may remember I posted this:

£300-£400M is quite plausible.

Worthy Down cost £250M and that contract was awarded over 5 years ago: Worthy Down Barracks | Garrisons | Winchester-Garrison

Lyneham cost £230M and that was just the REME piece: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/d...army-engineers

£42M for a single hangar for A400Ms: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/a...f-brize-norton

£70M to build 322 families quarters: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/w...es-at-tidworth

£25M for demolition and then £142M for construction of the support building for F35 at Marham: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/m...-edge-aircraft

£20M to resurface just one runway at Valley: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/r...-at-raf-valley

16x SLAM Blocks costs £77M at Brize (that would be roughly the amount needed at Cranwell): https://www.gov.uk/government/upload...ic__Final_.pdf

£18M to renovate and build a new annex for 51 Sqn and RJ: https://www.gov.uk/government/news/h...raf-waddington

Welcome to the world of defence infrastructure and so-called 'value for money'.

LJ

Here is some up to date info on the faciliies at Worthy Down at a staggering £250M!!!

https://www.gov.uk/government/news/social-hub-takes-shape-at-worthy-down

I very much doubt that the facilities we sold to fund this at Worthy Down came anywhere near covering the cost. Is there any way to stop the madness that appears to be called D I O?

DIO’s priorities for 2017 are:

implementing the estate rationalisation plan and the disposal of sites both associated with that and more broadly
investing on the estate
making savings and efficiencies.


I don't see any savings or efficiencies!

LJ

[pr00ne]

You don't see any savings or efficiencies in closing and disposing of 56 of the most expensive to maintain and operate sites in the MoD estate?

[Lima Juliet]

Proone

What makes them so expensive to run is DIO, with their apparent inability to maintain the estate so that we have to physically stop using buildings, not get ripped off by contractors or spend the budget wisely. What makes it "expensive to maintain and operate" - the crazy prices we keep paying. Everyone sees it happening at a local level day-in day-out and there is nothing that the Stn Cdr to the lowest OR can do about it. There is no accountability when a Station has to close a building, everyone just shrugs their shoulders and says "oh well, that's DIO" and then moves on.

So I'm afraid all I see is inefficiency and expense from this organisation day-in day-out. I see no accountability for the continual decline of our estate and I see crass decisions being made where we are literally "selling the family silver" that will never ever be replaced. All that happens is that we get squeezed onto less and less estate with shoddy and expensive new builds that will be lucky if they will last 25 years.

Rant over and out...:*

[pr00ne]

Fair rant,
Hasn't there been a very recent change in respect to budgets and a devolving down to Stn Cdr or equivalent?

[Lima Juliet]

Proone

I am led to believe that is true, but if we still have to use the 'closed shop' prices of a Regional Prime Contractor and are unable to decide which part of the estate we keep, then I can't see how this will help things. I fear all that will happen is more of the same but they will be able to point the finger at the Station Commander without allowing that person the free reign to actually run a long term plan.

LJ

[The Nip]

LJ,
I don't dispute your figures on any of the schemes you quote. Worthy Down will be Tri Service so there is some others figures that could be taken into account.

I like Halton, but as you say the DIO have let it get in to disrepair. The Old Workshops should have been sorted out years ago. They have now been condemned through lack of investment. They couldn't go on as the way they were.

Non of the sites were secure from people walking around. Whether walking pass the 25m range across the field to Wendover, or just walking up the road by the fire section. May times I saw the bearded homeless guy appearing walking from the blocks up the hill.

I lived on McEwen Ride and who ever gets those properties will be in a fabulous position. Unless the cover all the sports pitches with housing estates.

[Stuff]

There's a duty rumour that says at least one company is interested in buying the sports facilities and keeping them as they are now to run as a sports and fitness business.

[iRaven]

The stuff coming out of the SofS and DIO is an utter lie and must be challenged before it is too late. Here is a quote:

When asked specifically about Fort George’s impending closure, during the debate in the chamber on the proposals, the Defence Secretary said it is “is a very old barracks”, costs £1.6bn a year to run, would be “extremely expensive to upgrade” and “is not appropriate for a modern infantry unit.”

Taken from Page 7 of this House of Commons Briefing Paper: http://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/CBP-7862/CBP-7862.pdf

£1.6 BILLION? You could build another Fort George for £1.6bn and it would last another 300 years!

This is how rumours start and the MPs are hoodwinked that it is a good idea. Even the headline to this document is the incredible "we want to spend £4bn to save £3bn in running costs by 2040" - what sort of lunacy is that? Most of the crappy 'Happy Eater' or 'Premier Inn' buildings they build won't even last until 2040! Also, they they have a £2bn hole in what they want to spend so they are going to look for PFI deals - we all know who the winners with those are and it isn't HM Forces! :=

This reminds me so very much of the 'great deal' that the Defence Hoising Executive was going to give the average Serviceman for married quarters or 'pay as you starve' under the rubbish Catering Retail and Leisure deal.

I despair...

iRaven

[Lima Juliet]

Thanks iRaven. I also see on Page 17 of your link that it says there are less than 10 civilian staff and no military personnel working on the airfield at Halton. Another untruth as there are at least 8 military staff and over 20 civilian/contractor staff the last time I looked!

[Wander00]

Back in 91 and the early days of "budgets", Stn Cdrs did have discretion, and at Wyton over 2 years we funded the modernisation of AMQ and OMQ, purely on the change in value of the aviation fuel. AOC not amused but happy smiling families who found they had double glazing and central heating