US Air Force One Replacement - President-Elect Trump's View

[RAFEngO74to09]

Tweet: "Boeing is building a brand new 747 Air Force One for future presidents, but costs are out of control, more than $4 billion. Cancel order!"

https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/806134244384899072

[Lonewolf_50]

He's not the president yet, we'll see how this pans out. Interesting point.

[Parson]

I believe they are actually building three......

[GlobalNav]

I don't want us to buy this guy a new airplane either. Put the two old VC25s we have in a museum and let him walk. Or maybe he can Tweet his way around the world.

[Lonewolf_50]

@Globalnav:

When he's the President, he gets to be treated like the President whether you like him or not. This is the same as when Mr Obama was president: it is the office, not the individual, that this special aircraft is intended to serve/transport/support.

[GlobalNav]

Thanks for the civics lesson.

Mr (President-Elect) Trump used that most respected form of communication known to our modern world (Twitter) to inform us of another a knee-jerk reaction, this time concerning the Air Force One program. So I dutifully salute the office (elect) and say let him cancel it and let the man walk. Why waste a few billion tax dollars on him unnecessarily?

[TheWestCoast]

Maybe he would prefer that the Chinese build a cheaper knock-off copy instead?

[GlobalNav]

I wouldn't mind if he had one of those persuasive chats with the big B about sending all those jobs to Shanghai.

[Lonewolf_50]

So I dutifully salute the office (elect) and say let him cancel it and let the man walk. Why waste a few billion tax dollars on him unnecessarily? Because the next president(s) after him will need it to. Getting replacement AF-1's takes that mission's capability into the next few decades.
I concur with your distaste regarding Twitter.
I concur with the issue of the jobs. Will be interesting to see if his walk matches his talk.

[GlobalNav]

To be serious for a moment, the office does need a safe and secure mode of transportation such as the VC-25 has provided and obsolescence is intolerable.

That the president-elect seems to regularly shoot from the hip ("ready-shoot-aim") is likely to result in some missing toes (i.e., costly interruptions).

In the meantime, there are long-legged Gulfstreams, also dedicated to presidential travel. But the staff and press will need to follow in another aircraft. He could still Tweet and stay in touch.

[rotornut]

Trump says Air Force One Boeing order should be cancelled - BBC News (http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-38221579)

[Simplythebeast]

Nowt to lose. He gets to use it until his term finishes, leaving his successor with nothing.

[Consol]

Normal procedure is the outgoing Prez orders it to avoid embarrassing the new comer I suppose. If true this may mean the closure of the 748 line.

[Two's in]

Perhaps if the great man took the time to understand that the mission was more involved than moving his latest squeeze between fashion shows, he might begin to understand how it costs as much as it does. I know through life costs, amortization, obsolescence, EMP hardening etc are very, very tedious subjects for such a great, great man, but he might want to ask somebody on Fox news or even twitter, whether these things are important or not for the subsequent Commanders-in-Chief over the next 30 years.

[ACW367]

Interesting article here analyzing his 'chaos theory' Donald Trump presidency: Boeing and his chaos theory - BBC News (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-38228007) - it is amazing how 140 characters can send a major corporations stock price falling 1%

[Anthony96]

Omg why? he's so retarded

[GlobalNav]

Amazing? Or is it the age old phenomena that it's easier to tear something down than to build it up. Or the other one, it's easier to say you will do something than to actually do it.

[TacomaSailor]

It is hard to understand what that $4B number means in his thought process. Flight Global reports that the DoD has contracted for $127M for specification research and Boeing says the contract is $170M for "unique capabilities" definitions. It sounds like those two numbers are for the same research.

The DoD says the current estimate $1.65B is for TWO new Air Force One planes.

How Trump got to $4B is puzzling.

[West Coast]

Perhaps if the great man took the time to understand that the mission

TI, were you quick to criticize President Obama when he complained about the costs associated with the new Marine 1 helicopter?

[atakacs]

Indeed I don't say any (publicly available) material quoting those 4bn...

It might or might not be an expansive price tag... All depends what is delivered against it.

[jack11111]

NPR saying Trump sold his Boeing stock last June.
.

[Lonewolf_50]

To be fair, he was already in office and that particular program had caught a dose of "requirements creep" -- but I digress. IMO, it was a calculated move to demonstrate that the President was "getting tough with that horrible acquisition system" while at the same time making a self sacrifice by not getting a new bird ... just a thought.

[West Coast]

The parallel is there, the difference is/was timing.

[Two's in]

TI, were you quick to criticize President Obama when he complained about the costs associated with the new Marine 1 helicopter?

Absolutely, because he could have had a Westland/LM version 5 years earlier for half the cost. Although to be fair to you, I am still struggling with maintaining any objectivity when commenting about the man, but there's hope for me yet.

[ORAC]

In some respects I think the USA have to get over the importance of one person.

Firstly, there is no one waiting for a momentary window to deliver a nuclear strike on the USA.

Secondly, according to the constitution, there is always a replacement.

Every other nuclear power seems to be able to manage to allow their heads of state to fly around without such a logistics tail.

To be perfectly honest, he is talking total sense, and being disparaged for doing so....

[Hangarshuffle]

Is it the cost he doesn't like then? Or the timescale creep? I mean it does seem an excessive cost. Is he not elected on a ticket to cut US Govt. waste>?
Sticking my neck out but why couldn't he use a appropriately painted C17 nicely fitted out in-side (painted faux gold even in his private bit)?
Also what does Putin use, or the Chinese leader?
I mean Trump did say he was going to be different....

[T28B]

Hangarshuffle, it is wise to remember that American presidents serve temporarily, not for life. Comparing them to the Russian or Chinese head of state is not apples to apples.

[Hangarshuffle]

T28 is that true? Putin wont be in forever. Surely it is apples for apples?
They're heads of state and need a set of wings to get about? That's it?
Trump thinks the cost is excessive and things POTUS should be setting an example, is that his point?
Also, isn't a 747 a bit er.. out dated now anyway? Why that particular aircraft?

[West Coast]

Why that particular aircraft?

IMO

It's US made, a requirement whether written or not. I stand to be corrected, but I believe I read the secret service balked at a two holer for lack of redundancy and electrical power capability. The C-17 line is shut down and may not be large and swanky enough. It sells aircraft to be seen flying the President. Shoot, the Chinese use a 747 for their executive transport.

[tdracer]

I was directly involved in the current AF1 aircraft - and I know that Boeing lost hundreds of millions on those two 747s due to the fixed price nature of the contracts combined with less than elegant program management.
Shortly before I retired from Boeing last October, I was given a briefing on the upcoming replacement and how it was going to affect the engine package.
While nearly everything is proprietary/confidential (meaning I can't talk about it), I was quite frankly shocked at the level of 'gold plating' that was going into the requirements with little - if any - regard to the associated costs. Right now, it's looking very much like another 'cost is no object' program. $4 Billion doesn't sound out of line for what's being asked.
If nothing else, I think the USAF needs to go back and scrub the requirements with an eye on cost vs. benefit.

[T28B]

What are Mr Putin's term limits? Suggest you look at his entire history at the top of government, to include the Medvedev interregnum. We know what the American ones are. The comparison is not apples to apples.
Jimmy Carter once declared that he'd close Camp David, as it was an excess or a luxury. Once he got into office, the light went on and Camp David remains open to this day. Perhaps once in the job Donald Trump will likewise see things differently.
Your point on the 747 being outdated: perhaps, but the other face of the same coin is that it is mature technology and has 4 donks. There are some stringent rules on how reliable, how mature, and how well proven a particular plane can be to be eligible for Presidential service. Others probably know the details, and will hopefully elaborate.

[Lonewolf_50]

For HS:
I will offer that Air Force 1 is not just transport. It is also an airborne C2 node. That particular feature of the big aircraft informed the previously mentioned requirements creep on the Merlin variant (that was cancelled, as noted above) in terms of how much more C2 equipment they tried to pile onto that aircraft.

[The Sultan]

Being reported that his tweet was after the Boeing CEO was quoted on how important free trade is to Boeing. This made Trump look stupid and he retaliated. A petty little man.

The Sultan

[Parson]

The requirement was for a 4 engine large jet leaving a choice of just two and it was never going to be A380.... The 747-8I is, I would imagine, a pretty modern jet.

Re obsession with one person, doesn't the VP have his own (smaller) kite as well?

[c53204]

All aircraft purchases - especially military end up costing more than any 'deal price'. But the quoted price does seem a tad steep - usual 'let's rip a Government off' scenario.

Any unwanted new A380's going cheap I wonder? ;-)

[Heathrow Harry]

"Firstly, there is no one waiting for a momentary window to deliver a nuclear strike on the USA.

Secondly, according to the constitution, there is always a replacement."

You are totally correct ORAC - the only problem is that the (long) list of succesors are almost always sitting together in D.C

I think there was a suggestion to add someone like the State Governors to the end of the list just in case

[XR219]

To be fair, he was already in office and that particular program had caught a dose of "requirements creep" -- but I digress. IMO, it was a calculated move to demonstrate that the President was "getting tough with that horrible acquisition system" while at the same time making a self sacrifice by not getting a new bird ... just a thought.
No sacrifice to him - they weren't due to enter service until 2024, apparently.

[PDR1]

I'm just bemused that some people seem to think a C-17 based solution would cheaper than a 747-based one. Never mind the detail that a C-17 would need a waiver for the ditching-at-sea case.

PDR

[Heathrow Harry]

He's sending messages - $ 2Bn for a couple of aircraft looks obscene to his supporters plus he's putting the frighteners on Mr B etc and basically saying the great days are over - if you come in with big estimates expect to be dragged through the media

I'm sure the USAF will still get the aircarft but times are a changin' for sure

[Turbine D]

There are number of inaccuracies in Trump's Tweet.
“Boeing is building . . . ”

Earlier in 2016, Boeing received a $170 million contract to design a replacement for the aging pair of Air Force Ones used by the president. Boeing is not actually building the jet, though logically it is the only U.S. manufacturer with the capability to build such an aircraft.

“ … a brand new 747 Air Force One … ”

At a minimum, there would be two Air Force Ones. You need a spare in case there is a problem with one. The jets generally have a life cycle of 30 years.

A plane only receives the call sign “Air Force One” when the president is on board. This is actually a highly modified version of the Boeing 747-8 jet.

“Costs are out of control, more than $4 billion”

Cost have actually not been set. The Defense Department’s five-year plan indicates a cost of $2.9 billion over the next five years for design and development. It’s logical to assume at least another $1 billion in additional expenses to complete and procure the aircraft.

So an estimate of $4 billion — for design, testing and manufacture of at least two jets — is not completely out of line. But the budget is subject to approval by Congress and the actual design of the aircraft. Boeing literally needs to re-engineer the plane from the ground up, so there are many one-time expenses.

Air Force One needs to be designed to survive a nuclear war. It requires all sorts of undisclosed security upgrades and countermeasures. It can refuel in flight. The actual cost of the plane will depend on the equipment that goes into it. There also needs to be extensive testing, probably lasting two years, before the plane is deemed ready for presidential travel.

Congress obviously would have a say in the final price tag.

Boeing says it made no money making the last set of Air Force One jets and does not expect to make money on this order, as it is more a matter of prestige.

“Cancel the order!”

Nothing has been ordered yet. But the program could be eliminated. This may not be a problem for Trump, but certainly would affect his successors. The current aircraft were delivered in 1990, and as noted, the life cycle is about 30 years. The Pentagon says the current fleet “faces capability gaps, rising maintenance costs, and parts obsolescence as it reaches the end of its planned 30-year life-cycle.”

Todd Harrison, a defense budget expert at the Center for Strategic and International Studies, said “the program is very new and hardly had a chance to get started yet.” So, in effect, there are no real cost overruns yet. He added that the estimated $4 billion cost is reasonable given the requirements of the project.

More of the costs are associated with the sophisticated and highly classified communication and other classified electronic equipment than with the actual aircraft cost.

I sometimes think Trump suffers from ADS based on his Tweets.

[KiloB]

I would bet:-

1. The A/C will still be delivered.
2. The Price will now be less than it would have been.

Don't like the man, but he scored this time.

[Lonewolf_50]

No sacrifice to him - they weren't due to enter service until 2024, apparently.
I agree: part of that decision was the PR/Image piece ... I'd suggest more than half. It's politics.

[NutLoose]

I can see where he is coming from with his buy American and bring back industry and jobs to the US idea, but then he wants to scrap an aircraft built in the US, for the US, generating income for the US and employing US citizens who may be out of a job if it is cancelled... Ironic isn't it, especially as he flies around in his 757 pimp mobile with British engines and great big RR logos on the cowls...

http://static.businessinsider.com/image/4e53e6cc69bedd5c44000010-400/image.jpg

[Heathrow Harry]

"There are number of inaccuracies in Trump's Tweet." - surely not!

It's Social Media for heavens sake...

and do you think he cares?

He's got the result he wants - lots of people running about screaming - same as taking that phone call fromTaiwan. Couple of minutes and he's got the Chinese on the back foot......

[Lonewolf_50]

Harry, are you suggesting that the President elect is a wind-up artist? :E
Shirley Knot! :cool:
(Heck, when you look at the extent he went to in order to 'wind up' the NFL back in the 1980's, which went all the way to court, he's been at this for over three decades. All social media does is make it easier for him to do so.)

[bvcu]

Need to read the history of this , the aircraft are 'pencilled in' with Boeing as the line won't remain open for long due to declining orders for 4 engine jets..........

[RAFEngO74to09]

Heathrow Harry,

On occasions when the President and other US top leaders are gathered at a single location (eg State of The Union Address or Presidential Inauguration), there is at least one Designated Survivor at a remote location with presidential level security and a "nuclear football" military aide.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Designated_survivor

[Turbine D]

Original quote by Heathrow Harry:
and do you think he cares?

Trump should care and know, "You hope for the best and prepare for the worst." Today we are remembering a day when we didn't exactly do that, 12/7/41.

The days of the his apprentice entertainment shows are over, now it is for real, no longer fiction. He has yet to figure that out.

But, that is what the US Government and Department of Defense have figured out, given the smaller and dangerous world we live in and the technical challenges that exist today. That is why we order new Presidential doomsday aircraft to replace those that are 30 years old, hope for the best, prepare for the worst.

[stilton]

If this moron does not take us into a nuclear war we will be fortunate.

[juliet]

I find it quite amazing that people insist on believing that Trump is an idiot. You may not like his ideology or his methods, but he is clearly an intelligent man. That he was able to tap into and manipulate enough people so that he could win this past election is proof enough.

Try thinking for a minute that everything he does is calculated and for a purpose and perhaps you can start to see a methodology.

[riff_raff]

Trump is a very shrewd politician. He knows full well that the new Presidential 747-8's won't be put in service until after he leaves office. And he also knows that Boeing can deliver the two aircraft for far less than they are currently asking.

[Arclite01]

I bet he'll have a lot less time for tweeting when he's doing the job for real !!

Arc

[TBM-Legend]

He's already working over the CEO of Boeing for a better deal and like any good businessman he doesn't need an overspec padded priced machine.

Remember, if you're paying wholesale, you've just paid too much!

[melmothtw]

Trump is a very shrewd politician.

Really, because he's spent the best part of two years telling us all he's anything BUT a politician? #DrainTheSwamp

[Heathrow Harry]

Thanks RAFENG - it makes sense

And I'll bet they have a waiting line - who wants to be there for the State of the Union Address??? Worse than the Queens Speech........................

[Bevo]

riff_raff: Trump is a very shrewd politician. He knows full well that the new Presidential 747-8's won't be put in service until after he leaves office. And he also knows that Boeing can deliver the two aircraft for far less than they are currently asking. As Turbine D has pointed out, Boeing made no money on the VC-25A program. It will not make money on the replacement. In order to reduce the cost of the new aircraft the amazing number of required systems to be installed and required changes to the basic 747-8 will need to be reduced. Given the purpose of the aircraft, I doubt that anyone will step forward to do that.

[Lonewolf_50]

Really, because he's spent the best part of two years telling us all he's anything BUT a politician? #DrainTheSwamp
Looks like you broke the code. :ok: For a theme song to hum along with any political contest, we* heartily recommend the following 44 year old dit (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kz4HN4pL7kI)ty. The point was simply to win the election. They'll figure out the rest later, to include presidential transport.

(*plural, since it includes the voices in my head)

[Pontius Navigator]

I have I mind a past President that many wrote off as going to be useless who IMHO was one of your best. Is it true the office maketh the man?

[T28B]

It changes each one who has had the job, some more than others. Were you thinking of Harry Truman?

[Pontius Navigator]

No, more in living memory

[NutLoose]

Reagan?

I could totally understand the problems Boeing are having with cost, as mentioned before a friend was involved with the cancelled helicopter contract and they were getting stuff like

"We need to fit something in the avionics bay"
"What does it do?"
"Classified"
"What size it it?"
"Classified"
What power does it need?"
"Classified"
"What does it weigh."
"Classified"

And so it went on.

[tdracer]

Nutloose, you're spot on.
According to Av Week (Trump Vows To 'Negotiate' Price Of Boeing's New Air Force One | Ares (http://aviationweek.com/blog/trump-vows-negotiate-price-boeings-new-air-force-one?NL=AW-05&Issue=AW-05_20161208_AW-05_242&sfvc4enews=42&cl=article_5&utm_rid=CPEN1000002544393&utm_campaign=7850&utm_medium=email&elq2=572c68c7f35644eaae796d5a25b85f8b))

The Air Force has estimated it will spend $2.87 billion in research and develop funds through fiscal 2021 on the project, and the Government Accountability Office projects the total cost will be $3.2 billion.Think about that for a moment - ~$3 Billion in R&D - the actual aircraft are on top of that! :uhoh:
Boeing lost over $250 million building the current VC-25A aircraft - as noted earlier some of that was due to a poor program management, but much of it was underestimating the work required to meet the USAF requirements (adding things like dual APUs, aerial refueling, and EMP hardening to a passenger aircraft doesn't come cheap :ugh:)
As noted, I know more than I can say about the new aircraft requirements but if the USAF gets everything they are asking for, little more than the airframe structure will be common with a 747-8i. As I noted before, I was stunned at the level of system redesign that will be needed to meet the AF1 requirements - and that was just for the engines...:ugh:

[Lonewolf_50]

It's not your average commute, and when you buy in small production runs the cost per unit is steep.

[Buster Hyman]

Now, if I was Airbus, I'd be putting together a cheeky submission...:E:E:E

http://www.superyachts.com/syv2/newsimages/584/290/90/c/3e74/cms/luxury_style/755-most-expensive-private-plane---airbus-a380-flying-palace.jpg

[Pontius Navigator]

Nutty, correct, I wonder what our cousins' take on him is.

Buster, could be a CoG problem with the beast in the tail. I like the lift though, avoids the potential for trips and saves your knees running up the stairs. It would however mean the end of the iconic pose at the door of AF 1. I guess the Secret Service would vote for that as that top if steps wave must be the most vulnerable moment in any trip.

[Heathrow Harry]

"top if steps wave must be the most vulnerable moment in any trip."

Almost always at a totally controlled airfield, normally military - if he's not safe there where is he safe? Compared to being out in crowds -even if they mainly his supporters??

[mfaff]

Td,

Fascinating insight...which leads one to wonder if there are fundamental differences in the AAR system developed for the E-4 and that for the VC-25, both are adaptions of the basic 747-200 airframe and were to be refuelled from the same tankers.

Similarly the adaptation of the airframe and systems for EMP reasons would have been required for the E-4 mission and the VC-25 mission would have perhaps built on that as opposed to a completely 'new' system etc.

One could also imagine that the power generation and distribution requirements of the comms gear on the E-4 would have provided a basic, proven, deployed and accepted design from which the VC-25 could have evolved.

Or have I missed the point entirely and the E-4 lessons were in reality inappropriate for the VC-25 programme?

[PDR1]

Ummm....isn't the E-4 a 747-200 design of roughly the same era as the VC-25, and also currently being considered for replacement on obsolescence grounds? So what commonality would it have with a 747-800-based solution anyway?

PDR

[mfaff]

PDR precisely....... E-4A contract was 1973 with a service entry in 1974...Vc-25 RFP mid 1980s and entered service in 1990... so by the time the VC was being procured the E-4 had a decade plus in service.

So AAR system might have been a straight copy across.. so may have a number of EMP/ power generation/ comms aspects..

It would be interesting to understand how Boeing, having produced seven E-4 airframes were caught 'short' of some of the issues needed to develop the VC-25...especially one of the specific adaptions which may well have been evolutions of the E-4 designs.

If however as you mention the replacement E-4 is also being studied as part of the VC programme then the increased R+D may well be appropriate for the more complex and challenging task...

[tdracer]

PDR, I've had the same thought that perhaps some of what was being asked for was really applicable to an E-4 replacement more than the AF1 mission.
I wasn't involved in the original E-4 so I don't know how much carry-over there might have been between that and the current VC-25 - I do know the VC-25 has different engines (CF6-80C2 vs. CF6-50s for the E-4) so in my area it was totally different. There was a great deal of 'wheel inventing' going on during the VC-25, but I don't know how much of that might have been 're-inventing':rolleyes:


BTW, there already is an 'elevator' option available for the 747-8i - it's fitted to at least one of the VIP aircraft (although it's done via STC during the executive interior refit - Boeing doesn't do it).

[Out Of Trim]

Perhaps Boeing should call Trump's bluff.

They could say they will supply two standard B-747-8i at the normal price and whatever else you want to install is down to you at your own expense!

:E

[Pontius Navigator]

HH, I am sure that the SS cover approaching 100% risk but remember a sniper could be over a mile away and there have been terrorist attacks by members of the military.

Then of course the simple Humpty Dumpty syndrome

[Heathrow Harry]

well I know someone who fell between the steps of the plane and the aircraft door - she was sober but too busy taking in the view - several nasty (but superficial) grazes and cuts)

And a guy leaving the plane, missing a step, and going all the way to the bottom - two cracked ribs and a broken leg

Unlikely to happen to POTUS but with Trump in place................

[PDR1]

PDR precisely....... E-4A contract was 1973 with a service entry in 1974...Vc-25 RFP mid 1980s and entered service in 1990... so by the time the VC was being procured the E-4 had a decade plus in service.

So AAR system might have been a straight copy across.. so may have a number of EMP/ power generation/ comms aspects..


AIUI the 747-2 is an obsolescent aeroplane which can no longer be manufactured and no longer meets current certification requirements anyway. I am led to believe that "current" 747s have significantly fuel, electrical and information systems architectures - hence the need to redesign these for a new VC-25. Similarly, topday's secure comms systems are very different to those of the earl 90s, with different wiring and antenna requirements. Add in current military needs (a decent Link-32 implementation, plus the best available DASS, would seem to be a minimum) and you rapidly end up with a new aeroplane needing a couple of billion in non-recurring engineering (which if you were looking to heckle you'd call "R&D" so it sounded excessive).

If I was asked for a big-handfulls guestimate for a VC-25 replacement something like $2-3bn would feel reasonable, frankly.

PDR

[NutLoose]

You don't need all that secure stuff, just borrow Hilary's laptop and do it all on that.

[Heathrow Harry]

PDR-1 is correct - the (very expensive) troubles Boeing had in getting the new 747 right clealry show it wasn't a simple upgrade from the older models.....................

[racedo]

On occasions when the President and other US top leaders are gathered at a single location (eg State of The Union Address or Presidential Inauguration), there is at least one Designated Survivor at a remote location with presidential level security and a "nuclear football" military aide.

Mike Pence gets to eat at a Wendy's / Dairy Queen in Big Sky Country.

[racedo]

It is hard to understand what that $4B number means in his thought process. Flight Global reports that the DoD has contracted for $127M for specification research and Boeing says the contract is $170M for "unique capabilities" definitions. It sounds like those two numbers are for the same research.

The DoD says the current estimate $1.65B is for TWO new Air Force One planes.

How Trump got to $4B is puzzling.

Looks like he has dealt with Boeing before and they mentioned a price and it bore no resemblance to final Invoice.

[KenV]

I don't want us to buy this guy a new airplane either. Put the two old VC25s we have in a museum and let him walk. Or maybe he can Tweet his way around the world.Good long term thinking! Let's punish the next three or four presidents cause you don't like this one.

[CONSO]

just a swag- but although BA will be the ' general' contractor- maybe 20 percent of the total will go directly to Boeing for the ' green airframe ' with special wiring, armour, etc. the rest of the $$$ will go to interior, comm gear, anti missile, extra apu,engines, flight test by air force, spares, etc ad naseaum.

even so , what is still puzzling is how long it takes to ' decide ' what changes to airframe are needed, and to provide wiring, hooks, brackets, stiffners, extra pieces, emp shielding, etc. EMP shielding has been around since the 60's at least- and now the use of cad-cam should make the fitting of extra brackets, etc relatively easy.

[GlobalNav]

Good long term thinking! Let's punish the next three or four presidents cause you don't like this one.

Well, I mean the pres-elect is a real long term thinker, isn't he. Get used to it.

The costs he complains about are not the OEM's fault. They are the additional mods required by the White House Military Office, perhaps for very good reasons. Want to lower the cost? Start taking away the add-ons. And then pay a ton more for them after delivery when the need for them becomes undeniable.

Like I said, he's a real long-term thinker. Get used to it.

[West Coast]

The costs he complains about are not the OEM's fault.

You're the guy who pays the sticker price when buying a car.

If he shaves a few $ off what Boeing wants, well worth it.

[NutLoose]

Trouble is you are trying to shave money off the sticker price when the car model hasn't been designed and built yet.

It is Boeing we are talking about here and not a Mini

( which in case you didn't know, the price set when it came out was a figment of the manufacturers chairmans imagination and took no notice of costing and materials, he just said we will price it at this to go up against the Ford Anglia..
Ford bought one, stripped it down to the core parts and priced it up at rock bottom and even they couldn't build a Mini for what it was selling for. They lost on every car they sold at the start.... Here endeth the history lesson.)

[West Coast]

Are you saying there isn't a way to work down prices? The decision has been made to purchase so certain pricing elements have to be known.

[KenV]

Are you saying there isn't a way to work down prices? Sure there is. What do you want to leave out?

[Turbine D]

The decision has been made to purchase so certain pricing elements have to be known.
Yup, sorta like the F-35 saga...

[Buster Hyman]

How much to repaint a 757?

[KenV]

How much to repaint a 757? If it was a matter of paint, the government could buy a brand new 747-8I for a few hundred mil with any paint scheme they wanted. The point being, they want more than a fancy paint job. LOTS more. And that takes money.

[Parson]

I believe the Boeing quote is for 3 aircraft - the simplest solution would be to make do with 2. As is the current situation.

[TacomaSailor]

The cost of new Air Force One planes may be a little more complex and difficult to manage than Mr Trump thinks.

The Puget Sound business press has a lot of information and dialogue about the cost of the new plane or planes. Most of the commenters, many of whom claim to be engineers or designers with Boeing, claim the following:

- Boeing sells a green 747-800i to Air Force at lowest available commercial price (a standard clause in most federal contracts)
- AF, Secret Service, NSA, CIA...??? specify the equipment that must be installed
- Boeing engineers work with equipment engineers to determine what mods must be done to basic airframe
- ... a circular process follows of design, engineer, modify,...etc
- Boeing provides technical skills at a fixed cost+ basis
- equipment providers contract with AF for cost of equipment
- Boeing works as an integrator with fixed cost for administration and real estate

Bottom Line - Boeing has very little control of final cost. They only control a few items:

1) Original airframe
2) Cost of their technical skill
3) Cost of overhead and real estate

The other big cost driver is the rapid change in technology: computer, communications, radar, weapons. At some point the installed technology must be frozen. But, the added cost is the installed flexibility to adapt to upcoming changes. Including that flexibility is initially costly but in the long run very cost effective.

I am not sure about the information. But, I did manage many large Federal IT projects that worked in a very similar fashion. I was the overall integrator but I was working with off the shelf hardware and software that the Feds acquired. I then worked with technical staff, some mine, some the Feds, some provided by 3rd party software vendors, to make it all work together.

And... the big unknowns were change orders a year or two into the contract. New hardware, new versions of software, new "required" functionality. Those were all enormous cost escalators and were outside the control of the original hardware and software vendors and me the integrator.

I worked on a Federal project (tightly tied to commercial aviation) that continued for more than five years at 10x the original cost and NEVER did meet any of the original requirements. Eventually technology had moved so far ahead of the project that it was abandoned at a cost of Billions of $$ with little useful result.

[GlobalNav]

The cost of new Air Force One planes may be a little more complex and difficult to manage than Mr Trump thinks.

The Puget Sound business press has a lot of information and dialogue about the cost of the new plane or planes. Most of the commenters, many of whom claim to be engineers or designers with Boeing, claim the following:

- Boeing sells a green 747-800i to Air Force at lowest available commercial price (a standard clause in most federal contracts)
- AF, Secret Service, NSA, CIA...??? specify the equipment that must be installed
- Boeing engineers work with equipment engineers to determine what mods must be done to basic airframe
- ... a circular process follows of design, engineer, modify,...etc
- Boeing provides technical skills at a fixed cost+ basis
- equipment providers contract with AF for cost of equipment
- Boeing works as an integrator with fixed cost for administration and real estate

Bottom Line - Boeing has very little control of final cost. They only control a few items:

1) Original airframe
2) Cost of their technical skill
3) Cost of overhead and real estate

The other big cost driver is the rapid change in technology: computer, communications, radar, weapons. At some point the installed technology must be frozen. But, the added cost is the installed flexibility to adapt to upcoming changes. Including that flexibility is initially costly but in the long run very cost effective.

I am not sure about the information. But, I did manage many large Federal IT projects that worked in a very similar fashion. I was the overall integrator but I was working with off the shelf hardware and software that the Feds acquired. I then worked with technical staff, some mine, some the Feds, some provided by 3rd party software vendors, to make it all work together.

And... the big unknowns were change orders a year or two into the contract. New hardware, new versions of software, new "required" functionality. Those were all enormous cost escalators and were outside the control of the original hardware and software vendors and me the integrator.

I worked on a Federal project (tightly tied to commercial aviation) that continued for more than five years at 10x the original cost and NEVER did meet any of the original requirements. Eventually technology had moved so far ahead of the project that it was abandoned at a cost of Billions of $$ with little useful result.

You nailed it in detail. Of course, Mr Trump will change all this. Aren't we lucky?

[sandiego89]

Wasn't' there some talk that three aircraft could replace both the two "Air Force Ones" and the four E-4 (747-200 based) aircraft? Hours wise the E-4's still have some time left, but systems and parts wise they must be getting harder to maintain. Perhaps a few of the KC-46's will be outfitted with special comms gear, etc. as an E-4 replacement.

[Ian Corrigible]

POTUS: "I just slashed over $1 Bn from the new AF1 program!"

Air Force: "Whatcha talkin' bout Willis?" (https://www.bloomberg.com/politics/articles/2017-02-22/air-force-stumped-by-trump-s-claim-of-1-billion-savings-on-jet)

"To my knowledge I have not been told that we have that information," Colonel Pat Ryder, an Air Force spokesman, told reporters Wednesday when asked how Trump had managed to reduce the price for the new presidential plane. "I refer you to the White House," Ryder said. A White House spokesman didn't respond to repeated inquiries about Trump's comments.

[GlobalNav]

If the cost indeed is reduced by $1 bn, then airplanes delivered will have less features on them.

If you really want to reduce the cost, just order 2 vanilla 747-8i. Maybe add GoGo so the president can stay in touch via Twitter. That way you don't need the extensive secure mission communications system, missile defense, aerial refueling, VIP suite, medical facilities, and who knows how many and what other features probably envisioned originally.

Better yet, just charter an airplane from an airline whenever you need it. You get what you pay for.

[West Coast]

You get what you pay for.

Boeing (and I presume Airbus) has long been known for offering substantial discounts from the sticker price, airline A pays more than airline B for the exact same aircraft regularly. It's a prestige thing for Boeing as much as anything, had Trump encouraged Airbus to enter the flying forehead into the competition in a serious manner, Boeing would have scrambled. Don't think for a minute he wouldn't have encouraged them to, if nothing else he's shown he not a slave to orthodoxy, and having the President on a Boeing is a prestige thing only.

[GlobalNav]

Boeing (and I presume Airbus) has long been known for offering substantial discounts from the sticker price, airline A pays more than airline B for the exact same aircraft regularly. It's a prestige thing for Boeing as much as anything, had Trump encouraged Airbus to enter the flying forehead into the competition in a serious manner, Boeing would have scrambled. Don't think for a minute he wouldn't have encouraged them to, if nothing else he's shown he not a slave to orthodoxy, and having the President on a Boeing is a prestige thing only.
No argument with what you said. But I think this was already taken into account. Boeing knows the tremendous marketing value of AF1 for what it is. The "exorbitant costs" of Air Force 1 is not the airplane itself, but the expense of the bells and whistles so well described by TacomaSailor. If Mr Trump wants a bare-bones price, he can whistle his own tune on a bare-bones airplane.

[Heathrow Harry]

I guess if he only sees it as First Class Plus or the World's Biggest Exec jet (and he loves that idea I'm sure) then he doesn't see the need for all the bells and whistles

Those whose job it is to think of the every eventuality and try and mitigate it whatever the cost will take a different view............

it's not just you get what you pay for - you get what you want.........

[sandiego89]

World's Biggest Exec jet (and he loves that idea I'm sure)


I guess that Saudi prince never got his A-380 biz jet did he?


Whatever we do please don't let President Trump pick the décor! It might end up looking like one of those gaudy biz jets/Persian "gentleman's" establishments.

[West Coast]

A Navy guy complaining about the decor of a gentlemens club? Did you criticize the dancer's shoes as well?


But yes, don't let Trump choose the interior.

[ORAC]

Boeing knows the tremendous marketing value of AF1 for what it is. I would have thought the marketing value was about zero. I mean, seriously, out if the few remaining 747 customers, do you yhonk any of them will be swayed by the AF1 order?

[West Coast]

You might not have heard, they do make other aircraft. It wouldn't look good for them as a corporation if they couldn't retain the title as manufacturer of the President's primary ride.

PS, the cargo version isn't quite as dead yet.

[Rick777]

Trump never goes cheap on anything if it's for himself. There is neither a design nor a price yet. This was all just him and his ego trying to show what a great negotiator he is. Trump claims credit for anything good and disavows blame for anything bad.

[ORAC]

As opposed to which other politician in history?

[Rick777]

As opposed to which other politician in history?

As opposed to most of them on the scale where Trump operates.

[GlobalNav]

He needs a plane that matches his attention span - Wright Flyer?

[Kiltrash]

Sorry to drag up a old thread but on the 6 oc ITV news there was a shot of the Donald talking about the tragic events involving Harry Dunn and on the table in front of him was a model of a B747-8 in I assume the new Presidential colours. Nice looking, is it anywhere near getting off he drawing board?

[tdracer]

Sorry to drag up a old thread but on the 6 oc ITV news there was a shot of the Donald talking about the tragic events involving Harry Dunn and on the table in front of him was a model of a B747-8 in I assume the new Presidential colours. Nice looking, is it anywhere near getting off he drawing board?

I'm out of the loop since I retired 3 years ago, but they have had the aircraft 'on hand' since before I retired. Boeing had two 747-8 passenger white tails due to the bankruptcy of the original buyer, the USAF and Boeing agreed to used those for the new AF1 aircraft, and money had been authorized to start work.

[chopper2004]

Ummm....isn't the E-4 a 747-200 design of roughly the same era as the VC-25, and also currently being considered for replacement on obsolescence grounds? So what commonality would it have with a 747-800-based solution anyway?

PDR

I started a thread on E-4B/E-6/C-32 replacement on here in lieu of one seeing E-4B arrive at the 'Hall. Its called NEAT/

https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/624903-e4b-e6-c-32b-replacement-neat-idea.html?highlight=e-4b+necap

Cheers (https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/624903-e4b-e6-c-32b-replacement-neat-idea.html?highlight=e-4b+necap)

[chopper2004]

Work has commenced on the first airframe

https://www.airforcemag.com/first-new-air-force-one-begins-modification-process/


https://cimg1.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/900x600/2fa077db_c946_47ea_b3b9_36026d6eadef_26b8dedcbb49cd8cf212ffa 948ed3c9b6fee3aa4.jpeg

[Tashengurt]

Still an awful livery.

[Buster Hyman]

While the modification process does not detail the new livery of the aircraft, Pentagon budget documents and models seen at the White House show the aircraft painted red, white, and blue instead of the signature light blue and white that has been on Air Force One for decades.

Artist rendering only

[Less Hair]

I hope they keep the classic livery. That red line makes it look like North Korea.

[sandiego89]

I started a thread on E-4B/E-6/C-32 replacement on here in lieu of one seeing E-4B arrive at the 'Hall. Its called NEAT/

https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/624903-e4b-e6-c-32b-replacement-neat-idea.html?highlight=e-4b+necap

Cheers (https://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/624903-e4b-e6-c-32b-replacement-neat-idea.html?highlight=e-4b+necap)

Thanks for linking that thread. Some great videos of the E-4 in there- don't get to see the inside of those much. I'm sure the equipment has been much upgraded over the years, but a very 1980's looking interior.

Imagine a KC-46 based airframe would be a good E-4 and E-6 replacement- with the hardening and miles of wiring and generator capabilities.

[tdracer]

Thanks for linking that thread. Some great videos of the E-4 in there- don't get to see the inside of those much. I'm sure the equipment has been much upgraded over the years, but a very 1980's looking interior.

Imagine a KC-46 based airframe would be a good E-4 and E-6 replacement- with the hardening and miles of wiring and generator capabilities.

While I can't elaborate for what should be obvious reasons, the (classified) briefing on the new AF1 747s I received shortly before I retired suggested a lot of expensive changes that would be of questionable value for a presidential aircraft. That suggested to me that maybe the USAF was using the AF1 to develop (and pay for) 747 upgrades that would helpful for future E-4/E-6 or even airborne laser replacement. That was also true during the 767-2C/KC-46 development - lots of stuff that wasn't directly related to the air refueling mission, presumable to provide future capabilities unrelated to the AR mission.
That being said, if the USAF wants to buy any new 747s for future capability replacement, they better get on the stick. There are currently only a handful of 747-8F freighters still to be built, if significant orders don't materialize soon, Boeing will have to pull the plug on one 747.

[Asturias56]

Aren't the "presidential" 747 ex - the Russian Transaero order and therefore are already built?

[RAFEngO74to09]

Aren't the "presidential" 747 ex - the Russian Transaero order and therefore are already built?

Sort of - considerable cutting up and modification required:

"For example, the two airstair doors, one forward of the wing and one behind the wing, did not come as part of the commercial airliner configuration, according to USAF acquisition documents released in July 2018. The retractable airstairs are to allow the aircraft to emplane passengers and crew without needing to rely on ground-based staircases."

"The commercial 747-8s have been stripped of many of its typical components as well, says the USAF."

“Boeing prepared the two aircraft for modification start by removing the commercial interiors, engines, auxiliary power units, and numerous secondary system components,” says the service. “Additionally, Boeing placed a sophisticated jacking and crib mechanism under each aircraft to reduce structural stress for the initial modification phases.”

https://www.flightglobal.com/fixed-wing/boeing-starts-air-force-one-modifications-of-747-8/137197.article

Comparison 747-200 vs 747-8

https://www.boeing.com/defense/air-force-one/index.page

[Asturias56]

Are they fitting Huawei 5G???

[tdracer]

Sort of - considerable cutting up and modification required:

"For example, the two airstair doors, one forward of the wing and one behind the wing, did not come as part of the commercial airliner configuration, according to USAF acquisition documents released in July 2018. The retractable airstairs are to allow the aircraft to emplane passengers and crew without needing to rely on ground-based staircases."


This is basically what was done for the current VC-25 aircraft. They were built as baseline 747-200 aircraft, then flown to Wichita where they were rebuilt into the AF1 configuration. However the systems changes planned for the 747-8 are quite a bit more involved than what was done for the 747-200 (which, BTW, went way over budget, allegedly making them - at the time - the two most expensive aircraft ever built, with Boeing eating most of that on a fixed price contract).

The airstair setup was seriously cool - I remember watching it being deployed once and it was fascinating (I only remember one - forward of the wing - although there may have been another aft that I simply never noticed or used). The airstairs went from the cargo deck to the ground - with a separate staircase leading from the main deck to the cargo deck. I'm guessing they are using the same basic setup and not re-inventing the wheel, but I could be wrong...

[Asturias56]

This might be cheaper....... certainly less stylish..............

https://cimg0.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/294x171/download2_eda5305befed51da1f1c32925b24e05c4ea427e2.jpg

[Asturias56]

Didn't one of the Saudi Royal Family 747's have a lift that came out of the bottom the fuselage down to the runway for the then King who had serious health issues?

[alf5071h]

Yes, a lift spanning three decks. The forward hold also had a platform and extendable wheelchair ramp from the lift base.
AFAIR, aircraft tour during modification, there was a full height shower and expected medical facilities.
The forward lounge had a Mecca Meter installed in the roof so that relative position was always available.

Now what might DT have for direction, what objective.

[Asturias56]

Wall Street .... or Trump Tower..........

[Ascend Charlie]

He could use his moral compass, but that seems to swing all over the place.

[Less Hair]

Pointing to the Kremlin.

[Buster Hyman]

He could use his moral compass, but that seems to swing all over the place.
So...in other words...a RAT (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ram_air_turbine)? That works on SOOOO many levels.

[ORAC]

Reverting to the Kennedy paint scheme - though I can’t help feeling the quoted cost/temperature reason is a loads of xxxxx. Don’t think they needed to justify the decision…


https://www.defensenews.com/air/2022/06/10/biden-nixes-trump-design-for-air-force-one-over-cost-delay/

Biden nixes Trump design for Air Force One over cost, delay

[Less Hair]

I clearly prefer Loewy over Trump for designing AF1. However Loewy had some red in it as well early on.
https://www.moma.org/collection/works/196025

[Asturias56]

Justified on historical grounds but also just to keep reminding people of what Trump was liek

[LowObservable]

My theory was that the dark lower fuselage would present problems on a hot airport ramp. I don't think it would be a problem in the air, but solar IR bouncing off concrete...

[NutLoose]

Do we have any idea of the added cost to install the chair lift to the the airstairs for Biden?
https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/500x503/52dib9_68f6664bc8515d40f3b19d0cf5aa7ea0ac14c2a2.jpg
:O

[WHBM]

My theory was that the dark lower fuselage would present problems on a hot airport ramp. I don't think it would be a problem in the air, but solar IR bouncing off concrete...
Doesn't seem to have ever affected British Airways' longstanding livery though ...

The "extra cost and delays" line is so implausible that you just wonder what they were hoping to sweep up with the quote.

[NutLoose]

It will be carrying a lot of extra electronics etc, I wonder if it’s similar to the Rivet Joint where the top is required to white to reduce heating, does the 747 use a similar system to Airbus where avionics air is ducted along the skin for cooling?