A320 Engine Fail

[Boyington]

In the FCTM of A320 in the section dealing with Engine Failure after V1 it is mentioned that the Flight Crew should delay the acceleration for securing the engine. May I know the reason for delaying the acceleration? Thanks.

[vilas]

For securing the engine what else? If you couldn't secure the engine by minimum acceleration altitude then accelerate when it is secured but do it before reaching the maximum acceleration altitude.

[Lantirn]

To make it very simple. You have an engine fire. Would you like to wait the fire extinguishing to accelerate with a fire under your wing?

[FlightDetent]

Acceleration means flap retraction. Configuration change means stop ECAM to keep workflow and task sharing neat. Rest is above.

[Metro man]

It's a question of priorities, getting the engine secured is the first. Climbing will certainly do you no harm where as delaying an important series of actions could.

[Roguedent]

For the sake of argument, the FCTM talks about delaying acceleration until the Secure. For a fire this is the second shot. My question is, if you have the failure at say 1700 and your max Acceleration Alt is calculated as 2400, if you haven’t got the second shot in as you get to 2400, should you level and accelerate and clean up and then continue to secure?

This is done in FLEX, so no TOGA 10 mins limit, but the book says Take off power, so the 10 mins could still figure.:ugh:

[Roj approved]

Hi Roguedent and Boyington,

Are you guys on the same Type rating course?

you've both asked the same question slightly differently. maybe time to talk to your instructor, to make sure you really nail down the fundamentals of this Abnormal

https://www.pprune.org/tech-log/607645-accel-secure-a320.html

[Roguedent]

Thanks Roj,

Not on the same course. Delay may be anything, from handling to navigating to ATC. The V1 cut works well if you lose the donk after V1, but when you have both and then a fire (still producing) you can eat up your window between start of the failure/fire to the fly smart Max Accel height quite quick. Hence the question on my other thread that is the 10 mins at take-off power a higher priority than the secure?

[OPEN DES]

The max EOAA as you know is based on 10min of T/O thrust. (I.e. up to selection of MCT thrust).
It caters for the worst case scenario:
-Eng Fail at Vef (1 sec before V1)
-No selection of TOGA (if FLEX planned)
-OAT vs Flex margin not considered, i.e.: for density altitude it is assumed that OAT is equal to flex. Achieved performance will be much better than assumed, in other words.
The above holds true for FlySmart where the Max EOAA is actually a derived figure for each single calculation.
In case of paper performance you will see that there is a single Max EOAA published for the whole range of TOW and conditions. This means that inherently there are even more margins.

Summary:
-Max EOAA is a very academic number. Good to enhance your Situation Awareness, especially in hot/high, limiting cases.
-We start the Chrono at T/O for a reason.
-Use your common sense.

[Roj approved]

Thanks Roj,

Not on the same course. Delay may be anything, from handling to navigating to ATC. The V1 cut works well if you lose the donk after V1, but when you have both and then a fire (still producing) you can eat up your window between start of the failure/fire to the fly smart Max Accel height quite quick. Hence the question on my other thread that is the 10 mins at take-off power a higher priority than the secure?

What do you think is more important? Getting the 2nd bottle into the engine to fight the fire, or let it burn and accelerate away from the airport?

I think Open Des’ summary might help you. The Airbus is a funny aeroplane, and the manuals are very different to Boeing, and even though they say the Airbus will look after itself, it won’t, you still need to do that piloty thing.

I’m in the middle of it too, as a refresher after 5 years on a Boeing, and it’s a struggle to get back into it the “French way”

[Roguedent]

I was using common sense. I want to get the fire out, but also don’t want the STC then academically failing me for going above a max accel height. Older aircraft, I preferred the start the clock and use that. In essence, be better is the answer. If the Crono is the master, then please point that out in the FCTM, as the max Accel seems to be limiting the way I read it. (FCTM-AO-020 p11/34). ‘....the flight crew MUST NOT exceed the engine out maximum acceleration altitude....’

Common sense isn’t an airbus trait. Surely a memory item to secure an engine would be common sense, instead of timely ECAM

[Roj approved]

Common sense isn’t an airbus trait.

See, now you’re getting it:}

The FCOM limitation is 10 minutes, no mention of a defined altitude.

The FCTM, says an altitude that can be achieved with engines at take off power for 10 mins. No mention of a hard altitude limit. Our Fly smart doesn’t calculate an altitude.

The FCOM over rules the FCTM, so in my world, I would be securing before accelerating, but once again, your training organisation should be able sort this out for you

[Roguedent]

Thanks Roj

The FCOM over rules the FCTM, so in my world, I would be securing before accelerating, but once again, your training organisation should be able sort this out for you

I think this is my problem. I'm used to the books being correct and not hopping around for info.

When a book says "....flight crew MUST NOT exceed the engine out acceleration altitude..." FCTM AO-020 p11/34, then you kinda take that to mean what it says.

Back to old school trust the clock

[Roj approved]

Back to old school trust the clock

:ok: Don't trust the Airbus, its just waiting to bite you on the ass :}

P.S. The Airbus books suck

[Goldenrivett]

Hi Roguedent,
I'm used to the books being correct and not hopping around for info. When a book says "....flight crew MUST NOT exceed the engine out acceleration altitude...then you kinda take that to mean what it says."
FCTM actually says "If the decision has been taken to delay the acceleration, the flight crew must not exceed the engine out MAXIMUM acceleration altitude."

It does mean what it says.

[vilas]

Actually the limit is 10 min. MAX EO ACC altitude is the minimum altitude for the whole chart values. So if you don't cross that it ensures the time limit.

[dweeks]

It's a question of priorities, getting the engine secured is the first. Climbing will certainly do you no harm where as delaying an important series of actions could.

Interesting. My carrier has always taught to get the flaps up and then deal with the fire, unless the engine is undergoing severe vibration and you have to shut it down for aircraft controllability.

As more than one sim check airman has told me..."the engine is out on the wing, and the fire is inside the engine. You're better off concentrating on aircraft control and terrain clearance for 90 seconds more, than screwing up the cleanup procedures, ECAM and terrain separation if you try to put out the fire in the initial climbout."

[Goldenrivett]

"...and the fire is inside the engine."

Not necessarily. See B707 G-ARWE (https://www.era.lib.ed.ac.uk/bitstream/handle/1842/5259/A3.C.A.P.%20324%20Civil%20aircraft%20accident%20Report%20on% 20the%20Accident%20to%20Boeing%20707-465%20G-Arwe%20at%20Heathrow%20Airport%2C%20London%20on%208th%20Apri l%201968.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y)

"The investigation into the accident established that the engine suffered a fatigue failure of its fifth stage Low Pressure Compressor wheel and that parts of the broken wheel had burst through the compressor casing. The engine fuel supply Line was severed and the escaping fuel then ignited. The fire continued to burn because of an omission to close the fuel shut-off valve by pulling the fire shut-off handle when the Engine Fire Drill was carried out."

[dweeks]

Not necessarily. See B707 G-ARWE (https://www.era.lib.ed.ac.uk/bitstream/handle/1842/5259/A3.C.A.P.%20324%20Civil%20aircraft%20accident%20Report%20on% 20the%20Accident%20to%20Boeing%20707-465%20G-Arwe%20at%20Heathrow%20Airport%2C%20London%20on%208th%20Apri l%201968.pdf?sequence=1&isAllowed=y)

"The investigation into the accident established that the engine suffered a fatigue failure of its fifth stage Low Pressure Compressor wheel and that parts of the broken wheel had burst through the compressor casing. The engine fuel supply Line was severed and the escaping fuel then ignited. The fire continued to burn because of an omission to close the fuel shut-off valve by pulling the fire shut-off handle when the Engine Fire Drill was carried out."



Yep.

As I said, my current carrier says wait until cleaned up. One of my previous (pre-multi-merger) carriers used to say put out an engine fire beginning at 400, no questions asked.

Plus ça change...