b727 line training..whats you idea?

[Justin19899]

hello my dear friends.i like to know your idea about this situation.
as a matter of fact its an airline that provides a line training with 500hrs of flight with b727 that's come with 28000$.im interested in cause im looking for a suitable job for 1.5 years with instrument rating.
the question is whats going on after that 500hrs of flight.what can i do with 500hrs of light of b727?please help thanks

[Eric Janson]

Who is offering this?

There's a scam that's been running for several years out of India/Florida.

If it's the same people stay well clear!

[pfvspnf]

scam dont do it

[Tu.114]

Also, what do you want to achieve with a B727 type rating? This type is at least 20 years past its use-by date and now truly and well rests in peace.

Steer well clear of this offer.

[felixthecat]

$28000 for a rating on a B727 ?!?!?!? Nuts....and where in the world even will you get a job with that rating?

[Justin19899]

Its not a scam,this airline operates under control of goverment.i like to know that what happened after this 500hrs of flight.i know there are some airlines thats hire non type rated firstofficers that just flown over at least a jet aircraft.is this correct?

[Mr Good Cat]

You could get a job in the upcoming industrial powerhouse of Iran.

They'll probably be hanging on to their 727s a bit longer now Trump is in power.

[Justin19899]

It seems that your idea smells political ;) i dont care about who is where.i like aviation and follow to become an airline pilot just for flying:p

[Tu.114]

OK.

First of all, a type rating should be paid for by Your employer.

Second. What´s Your work worth? A salary maybe? Will You want a place to live in, keep it warm and possibly also have food on the table? Or do You value Yourself so low that You are even ready to pay for Your working a good day´s work?

Third. If You leave all professional ethos behind and are willing to pay for a type rating, at least pick one that will leave you somewhat employable thereafter. "Glass cockpit" and "widely operated worldwide" should be rather high on Your list of priorities. An old 3-crew fuel-to-noise converter like the 727, the worldwide operators of which You can count on the fingers of one hand and still have most to spare, has style points, true, but apart from that, I would not touch it with a 10 feet pole.

But after all, it´s your choice, as the consequences will be Yours as well to handle.

So: Choose wisely.

[Justin19899]

Thank you dear Tu.
This payment is for both type and line training.and this company is in my own city that i live.and i think they start to pay us after 200 hrs with minimum payment:ok:

[pfvspnf]

Are you paying to be the flight engineer ?

[donpizmeov]

Justin, most here paid more to fly a 737. Do what you need to do. Good luck

[Justin19899]

No I will pay for the right seat:p
And i hope that they send me to pass f100 type exam after this 500 hrs:O

[recceguy]

People who pay instead of passing exams and selections will always be and forever the lowest form of aviation life.

[ExDubai]

Thank you dear Tu.
This payment is for both type and line training.and this company is in my own city that i live.and i think they start to pay us after 200 hrs with minimum payment:ok:
Do what you like but read TU.144 answer carefully. The 3rd. point is something you really should think about.

[PapaEchoIndia]

At least put an extra "10" and pay for a 737 rating as many wrote...

[Justin19899]

Hi again��I want to hear your ideas again my friends about this program but they may have some changes in their schedule,they say you may select for a320 or 737 type and 250 hours of flight.i think it's better.but lower hours ...

[WB1900]

If you want to join an airline so eagerly then take your CPL/IFR pass all ATPL exams and apply in Europe with companies like Ryan Air, Easy Jet or Wizz. recently there had been an AD where even Austrian Airlines, Lufthansa and BA are looking for pilots (First officers). Even in the US are plenty of jobs for eager young fellows.
Please have a look around and don't pay for working. At the moment is tons of jobs out there where u get paid for the rating and the ocupation of the right seat.

[Callsign Kilo]

Great idea. Go for it. Do they offer courses on a 707?

[PILOTHEAD]

Go to Copa for free. They hire guys with 350 hours to. 737 or E190 time. Nobody flies 727s anymore. You would be wasting your money and I bet there is no guarantee of employment either. Give me the money instead. I could invest it in something for you with much greater return

[Justin19899]

I have cpl ir now and it's my dream to join Europian airlines cadet programs but I'm not eu citizen.this airline in my own country offer a320 or737 type plus line training.after this program i will have total flight hours of 400 hours including 250 hours with a320

[dkz]

CPL/IR with 150 hours ? Where are you from ?

[Justin19899]

I have flown 180 hours plus simulator till get my cpl and ir

[flaphandlemover]

Justin...

You come on this forum and ask us for our opinion... All the answers are negative and tell you not do it...
You are not accepting any advice and you just defend why you will do it anyways....

My question...
Why are you asking then?

Apparently you have enough money to spend on a useless type rating and pay some dodgy outfit some money...

I am sure your answer will be again why you will do it anyways.... Do it then and stop asking useless questions...

you are too young to understand our point.... Good luck....

[Officer Kite]

Justin you've got it all wrong mate. The shorts360 is what you wanna be on, and settle for nothing less!

[4runner]

wtf is wrong with these guys???? I'm approaching 40, 10 kilos too heavy, a lousy pilot and an even worse lover. Yet I have 3 type ratings and was paid while I earned them. Obviously I'm lucky and these guys are "victims"...

[pfvspnf]

It's a troll , don't feed!

Sad to say there are really people like this , paying for command ! Vietjet needs to be blacklisted

[4runner]

It's a troll , don't feed!

Sad to say there are really people like this , paying for command ! Vietjet needs to be blacklisted

Vietjet used to PAY for training and ratings. I have good friends there. They NEVER paid for anything. Then the eurotards with stupid haircuts started offering to pay and the floodgates of mediocrity opened.

[Justin19899]

If i don't pay so there isn't any job for me with 27 years old.demand for this job is very high in my region and airliners prefers to hire those peoples whos fly with high performance jet aircraft

[harry the cod]

Justin19899

If you are genuine and seek advice, please listen to and answer the questions that posters have had the time and decency to give you. You have still not told us where you're from. At least answer this one question. Straight and simple.....

Harry

[Officer Kite]

irliners prefers to hire those peoples whos fly with high performance jet aircraft

Are we still talking about the 727?

Justin you are very clearly a troll, bugger off.

[Justin19899]

I want to excuse my freinds because most of you see the subject of this topic about 727 but actually now i have new offer for a320 or737 type and line training

[Officer Kite]

I want to excuse my freinds because most of you see the subject of this topic about 727 but actually now i have new offer for a320 or737 type and line training

Then if it's A320 TR or 737 TR with a job offer (not interview!) at the end of it, it may be worth it.

However if it's paying for the TR, and then paying to fly an aircraft full of paying passengers for the airline for however many hours (i.e. pay2fly), then it is an absolute no.

Paying for the type rating is something I too would be guilty of as in this day and age at the lower end it is near impossible to find an employer willing to pay, however paying to work after qualifying on the type you have paid for is not something I could ever stomach and is a cancer that needs to be stamped out in whatever way possible.

[flaphandlemover]

Justin... congratulations.. this is the way to go...
A320 or B737.. both amazing... maybe you should take them both.. you will be hired soon after you payed. You managed to get the best that you can for money....

Congratulations again...

Case closed... lets all move on before he asks questions on the Tu144 rating that I have on offer...

[Justin19899]

I don't know why some of you getting angry or upset with my question.but thanks for your answers and helps.

[Wizofoz]

I don't know why some of you getting angry or upset with my question.

Because we've all seen the status, standards and value of our profession eroded by kids willing to pay to work, rather than the other way around.

[Officer Kite]

Because we've all seen the status, standards and value of our profession eroded by kids willing to pay to work, rather than the other way around.

The 'kids' following a precedence set by those before them :rolleyes:

[luvly jubbly]

The 'kids' following a precedence set by those before them :rolleyes:

No. This is definitely something that has got far worse over the past 10-12 years. Can't blame kids though.
The airlines just stopped paying for training.
And those jets are so big and shiny
..........

[Officer Kite]

No. This is definitely something that has got far worse over the past 10-12 years. Can't blame kids though.
The airlines just stopped paying for training.
And those jets are so big and shiny
..........

I think I would fall into your definition of 'kid' being in my very early 20s. Now I can tell you it is absolutely not my fault, or the fault of those like me that the industry is the way it is and you have to practically pay for the oxygen at flight school. I don't like being lumped with the blame ... cos 10-12 years ago i really was a 'kid' and I can assure you it had nothing to do with me. And i haven't taken what you've said personally, what I'm saying can go for everyone in my age bracket.

Rather those that set this nasty precedent are already flying with you out in the sandpit in already holding various senior positions in companies.

[Aluminium shuffler]

Ah, here we go again with a P2F or SSTR pilot blaming senior guys for the P2F contract that they signed, despite the senior guys advising them not to. Exactly what was the senior pilot group meant to do about it, Kite? You blame them for not defending terms and conditions, but it is the P2F guys that helped the managers undercut the old conditions, bringing down the Ts and Cs for the entire industry. Why no pay rises in modern years? Because starry eyed dreamers are always willing to undercut us.

[Justin19899]

Ok its nice that you are worry about proficiency of guys like me that want to pay for my training.but i like to say before every contraction and payments i should pass an exam and interview.and i think these programs name is line training instead of p2f

[Officer Kite]

Ah, here we go again with a P2F or SSTR pilot blaming senior guys for the P2F contract that they signed, despite the senior guys advising them not to. Exactly what was the senior pilot group meant to do about it, Kite? You blame them for not defending terms and conditions, but it is the P2F guys that helped the managers undercut the old conditions, bringing down the Ts and Cs for the entire industry. Why no pay rises in modern years? Because starry eyed dreamers are always willing to undercut us.

I'm not P2F and I would never do P2F, I am however scheduled on a course to pay for my TR with a job offer at the end of it. It's about as good as it gets today down this end of the market.

The actual pilots who started devaluing themselves and the profession by paying for their training years ago are already up their respective career ladders - how is it in anyway the fault of those who want to start training today that they started a precedent that is now too late to do anything about. It is too late, paying is already the norm ... it is too late to do anything about it now, the time was years ago. And I never plan to do P2F as I said, but in a few years I will not be surprised if that becomes the norm the same way just paying for the TR is the norm today ... but I'm currently one of those refusing to do a P2F scheme. There are however many ex P2F pilots in EK from what I'm told ...

[Aluminium shuffler]

OK, good for you for not signing up for P2F. But you're still blaming the older generation for the existence of P2F or SSTR, whilst signing up for SSTR and thus condoning it. The older generation had no way to stop what new generations signed up to, most don't even know what you guys are signing.

Your contracts are between you and the employer, and absolutely nothing to do with older pilots, so I ask again, what do you think they should have done to stop it if the present generation are willing to throw their money at the airlines and sign up for blatantly illegal and immoral contracts? If you lot stop agreeing to these ridiculous practices, guess what? The airlines will have to return to paying for type ratings again!

There is nothing unreasonable about proportional bonds, with realistic time limits and pro-rata reductions, but forcing new staff into crippling debt so that they can't afford to lose their job and become weak yes-men is plain wrong, and on that we agree completely, but don't point fingers at folk who were not only not involved, but have also suffered significant erosion in terms and conditions because of the "I want it now" attitude of youngsters too impatient to climb the professional ladder the old way.

[Officer Kite]

I want to make it clear I agree with you on eroding Ts and Cs, and believe you in me I am not happy about it. But do I have any other choice? The answer is unfortunately not really. I'm not blaming or seeking to point fingers. However what I am saying is it annoys me when we all get looked down on as people ruining the profession by paying to train when this is something that is now the norm because people well before our time allowed it to become so.

I would love to take the moral high ground, reject the offer to fly an orange bus and let them pay for my training ... but the reality is they will not care ... not when they had over 5000 applications. That's 4999 other people more than willing to give their cash. Quite simply if I don't pay, well there is no shortage of people who will. It won't achieve an awful lot and I'll just be wasting time. And one thing you may notice, is the large application numbers, for a scheme costing £100,500. It is actually very competitive. So we are still quite some numbers away from being in any sort of a position to take that moral ground. They are by no means short of people willing to pay.

so I ask again, what do you think they should have done to stop it if the present generation are willing to throw their money at the airlines and sign up for blatantly illegal and immoral contracts?

This is the thing, it did not start with the present generation. The reason the present generation are in this situation of having to pay is because it is what has been the case for a few years now ... it was set by those before us, our fate was sealed. To answer your question, most pilots I come across tend to not really care about the training side of things once they've made it where they want to be (not that they're wrong in doing that) ... maybe if pilots were more vocal in their airlines about charging for TRs the airline would have stopped ... cos they certainly won't listen to applicants.

[Aluminium shuffler]

OK, Kite, I think you are peeved at those who took the P2F or early SSTR stuff just before your time and allowed that ball to start rolling. In that case, I agree with you and you have my sympathy; they aided a change to the system, leaped on by the locos, that will be difficult to roll back. If that is what you mean, then that's fair. I have seen too many people blame the generation that didn't have anything to do with it, though. Presumably they expected an industry wide strike against new terms, but that would have been illegal and cost family men their jobs, and would then have enabled locos to drive the conditions even lower and even faster by recruiting more desperate people. That'd have been bad for everyone.

[luvly jubbly]

I also agree in some ways with young Kite.

He is quite correct that if he doesn't pay for the training there are literally thousands of others who will. I see SSTR as a very different thing to P2F however. Who the f*** else pays their employer? It's madness.

This is where the employers have all their pilots "over a barrel". Or certainly bent over in some ways.....

Until this stops, ts & cs will newer improve. You don't see surgeons fighting each other to pay for their training like this. Or dentists or doctors......

I fear for the young guns Kite's age. Is this how their career will be? 40 years of this? I doubt many his age will see it through to retirement.

[Officer Kite]

I'm glad you now see what I was trying to say. And just to add, I don't blame all previous pilots as I'm aware that many of the senior guys had nothing to do with ever paying a penny (I don't really hold grudges against anyone really)



As for what the industry will be like in 40+ years and if I ever live that long or fly for that long ... well all I know is that I'm not getting myself into this to become a millionaire so can't get too disappointed ... who knows what it will be like.

[Aluminium shuffler]

Certainly a P2F scheme for an obsolete type seems to obvious a bad deal to be taken up, but that is what this thread is about. It's patently obvious what will happen - whoever takes the bait will be paying for the agreed term on the promise of a job at the end, but trapped with a useless rating and crippling debt, they will be abused further with deferral of the paid job with the bait of doing just one more month unpaid again and again. But some people don't want to see it.

[4Screwaircrew]

I can remember the first two people that I encountered that were about to embark upon a self sponsored 737 rating, all of us that were in the industry were of the same opinion that they shouldn't do it. The consensus was that if you guys do this today then within 10 years the airlines will expect us all to do it, that was early in the 1990's!

[Officer Kite]

I can remember the first two people that I encountered that were about to embark upon a self sponsored 737 rating, all of us that were in the industry were of the same opinion that they shouldn't do it. The consensus was that if you guys do this today then within 10 years the airlines will expect us all to do it, that was early in the 1990's!

Those are the guys :E

[Justin19899]

Is there any difference between p2f and line training?

[luvly jubbly]

Is there any difference between p2f and line training?

No difference Justin. It's the same thing. Companies like to call it training but it's you, paying to go to work. And for the company it's an extra business class passenger sitting in the cockpit.

Line training is s legitimate exercise, but what are they telling you..... 500 hours??? Lol

[pfvspnf]

Justin if you are so desperate why don't you go to alpha and air Arabia and do your MPL , they'll be happy to take your money

[Peter Pilot]

All pilots have at some stage of their lives sacrificed something to be in this profession but what today's generation are willing to put up with is sheer stupidity.

You reap what you sow and you will suffer for it.

[Justin19899]

So if you think p2f is an enormous disaster for aviation industry and you think humanity goning to be in danger if i pay to get a type rating with some hours of flight please say what can i do with cpl/ir and 190 hours of flight with pa-28.?

[Officer Kite]

So if you think p2f is an enormous disaster for aviation industry

No one of intelligence "thinks" it is a disaster, they know it is a disaster.

Can you imagine, paying your employer to work for them ... it reminds of that old French saying, "Le monde a l'envers", literally the "world upside down", at what point in history did it become the employee who pays the employer to carry the employer's fare paying passengers? What next? Apprentices paying building companies to build a block of flats?

[Justin19899]

yes it's painful to pay them and work for them but it's my dream to have a320 type rating.do you know an airline thats looking for students who are graduateed recently and promis to hire them without knowing anything about their level of knowledge and flying skills?i think they hire these cases with knowing them in the period of line training for example choose 50 out of 80

[Officer Kite]

yes it's painful to pay them and work for them but it's my dream to have a320 type rating.do you know an airline thats looking for students who are graduateed recently and promis to hire them without knowing anything about their level of knowledge and flying skills?

No one does that, they put candidates in a simulator and assess their abilities then decide to hire or not to hire. The idea that you pay for 500 hours so that the airline can see if you're good is somewhat absurd.

P.S. I think the title of this thread should be changed, you said you're not even looking for a 727 rating.

[Justin19899]

How can i change the title?

[pfvspnf]

Justin? Where are you from? What License do you have?

You sound like a kid, youre either just here for fun or if you are really this clueless than you shouldn't be anywhere near an a320

[4runner]

yes it's painful to pay them and work for them but it's my dream to have a320 type rating.do you know an airline thats looking for students who are graduateed recently and promis to hire them without knowing anything about their level of knowledge and flying skills?i think they hire these cases with knowing them in the period of line training for example choose 50 out of 80

The United States has more aircraft than all other countries in the world, combined and then multiplied by 2. So yes, I do know of airlines that hire young pilots. I don't understand how the rest of the world has buggered up this profession so much. Perhaps an international pilot union? A European pilot union? I don't know. I'm not throwing stones. We're all aviators and should be proud, paid and respected.