Canada opts for Super Hornets

[TBM-Legend]

http://www.google.com.au/url?url=http://www.wsj.com/articles/canada-plans-purchase-of-18-boeing-super-hornet-aircraft-1479840332&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&sa=U&ved=0ahUKEwjl9KLZmb3QAhUHKJQKHYz9BdsQqQIIFCgAMAA&sig2=uoWo8CTPX7VLqKSyrRAL3A&usg=AFQjCNHaaT0TWZswfyXSAdjxLaMVgcWH0w

Canada is buying a few Super Hornets while their Government dithers on the full replacement of their fighter fleet. I guess their needed to stem the flow of political refugees from the USA!!

[ORAC]

Nothing new here, announced in June.

http://www.pprune.org/military-aviation/424953-f-35-cancelled-then-what-466.html#post9400014

As I said at the time, a cynical way to buy F-18E/F/G (more orders doubtless to follow over the years) without holding a competition - the "new" competition no doubt slipping/extending into the future as, eventually, a F-18E/F/G replacement. The new USAF long range penetrator sounds far more designed for Canadian range needs.

[Aggamemnon]

I've always thought that Typhoon would be a good fit for their requirements.

[sandiego89]

Some real gems in the article linked by TBM:


“We need to move on this as quickly as possible,”


Lockheed said Tuesday that the plane [F-35] was combat-ready and available today.


Canada’s plan to hold a transparent bidding process for fighter jets.....The bidding process could take five years.....


....measures will be implemented to extend the service of the current CF-18 fleet....


- Canada seems to dither worse than my 5 your old did picking out his prize at the carnival- FFS just pick something and stick to it.


I agree with ORAC this seems like a political out for a non-competition.

[recceguy]

Rafale - chosen by India, a country on a war foot - would have been great, but given the level of integration (submission) of the Canadian aerospace industry towards everything coming from the south, was never really considered.
Australia has been always more open (Mirage, helicopters, warships, submarines recently) but they are a little bit farther from Uncle Sam.

[Lonewolf_50]

India, a country on a war foot
What do you mean by that?
I get your Gallic chauvinism in the rest of your post (any of us will tend to be "pro" the country we are from)
I don't understand why you characterize India's current position like that.

[Out Of Trim]

Maybe, because of rising tensions between India and Pakistan in the Kashmir Provence..

See http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-india-38074202

[TBM-Legend]

The RAAF went down the Super Hornet route to replace our F-111s. The preferred chariot was the F-15 Strike Eagle however the training and logistics required were many times the cost and efficiency of introducing the SH.

Pilot conversions from our existing Hornet fleet were straight forward requiring minimal time and the maintainers similarly. Time and cost won the day and I'm sure Canada will have the same experience.

[SpazSinbad]

The Oz DefMin of the day Nelso picked the Super Hornet out of the blue - then ret'd AVM Criss characterised it as a 'super dog'/'super dog squared'.

The 7.30 Report - ABC (http://www.abc.net.au/7.30/content/2007/s2165833.htm) 18 Feb 2008

[TBM-Legend]

If you believe anything on the ABC what are you smoking?

The RAAF was asked what aircraft could fill the role and quickly. Nelson wouldn't know one jet from another. Ronnie RAAF picked for the reasons above and it was available quickly basically taking USN slots by arrangement. My good colleague led I Sqn to the Gulf within 3 months of them arriving in OZ as the first cadre of pilots were ex-Hornet drivers many who had been there before. Transitioning to another type would mean a year or so delay in the IOC.


Nellis the other day..[USN]
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l4E-OdF7Uh4&t=5s

[Buster Hyman]

Also, the incoming ALP Govt. then backed the choice after a review didn't they? Regardless, it looks good with a Roo on it.

http://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/external?url=http%3A%2F%2Fcontent6.video.news.com.au%2FMyMm5 vcDooja5l94Tw89BaZRbJM6XX4S%2Fpromo235888505&width=650&api_key=kq7wnrk4eun47vz9c5xuj3mc

[SpazSinbad]

'TBM-Legend' hmmm.... Retired AVM Criss said those words:
"MARK BANNERMAN ABC: ...Last year, the then Defence Minister Brendan Nelson made a decision to purchase 24 Super Hornet jet fighters. It left defence experts stunned.

Last year, you effectively said this plane was a dog. Have you changed your view in any way about that?

PETER CRISS: I said it was a super dog and it's a super dog squared as far as I'm concerned. As we found out more and more about it, it's abysmal in every area that is so critical to buying a fighter strike type aircraft. It cannot perform.

MARK BANNERMAN [ABC]: The former chief of Australia's operational Air Force isn't just worried about the choice of the Super Hornet that he believes is slower and more vulnerable than the plane it replaces, what really concerns Peter Criss most is that no one inside the Defence Force or the department was prepared to stand up and argue against the decision.

PETER CRISS: I know there's a bunch of them that know the Super Hornet is a dog, alright. They've told me, they've told acquaintances of mine, friends of mine that they are terribly concerned about it. But it was the decision taken by the Minister at very short notice for whatever reasons and foisted on them...."

[Dropthegear]

Canada's illustrious leader never wants to upset people (he's more interested in getting in a selfie!). He campaigned in the recent election that we would not buy the F-35 for various reasons. Now it seems someone has convinced him that is the best airplane but he can't buy it so he's punting the decision until after the next election.

FYI Canada will not buy the F-18G because we don't do electronic attack for FJ's. If ever required, we would just tack onto a strike package led by another country and let them do it.

What Canada does is long range patrol over very cold and barren terrain. This makes it immoral and unethical to get pilots to fly single engine FJ's. We also will never need a first day of war, kick down the door, type of FJ. We intercept Russion bombers and patrols over the Arctic, Atlantic and Pacific. If flying for NATO, we only patrol in protected airspace.

The F-18E/F is not noted as a hot rod compared to other current generation FJ's, but it will keep up with a strike package. I'm surprised the government didn't just buy a whole replacement lot of F-18's right now, but the liberals are masters at dithering and making sure everything will cost as much as possible.

[tasspook]

but the liberals are masters at dithering and making sure everything will cost as much as possible.

Hahahaha, right.....and the Conservatives would NEVER do that. :rolleyes:

F-35 = Bad choice for the RCAF, period. Single engine FJ for Canada's territory, seriously, what were they thinking???

So what if the new guy decrees we're buying a few new 18's. The electorate have, generally speaking, had enough of the "ops normal" way of running a DoD acquisition process. I doubt if anyone is going to squawk too loudly about throwing down a bit of cash and giving the boys 'n girls a new jet.

How about if we, just for a change, leave the politics out of it and do what's proper for the folks honourable enough to put on the uniform.

[TBM-Legend]

SpaZS

Pete Criss also said the RAAF should buy the F-22. He has obviously not read the American position on the F-22. Credibility in today's world low...

1. No more being built - ever
2. The F-22 is not for export even to close allies like Japan and Australia - well documented

But Mr Criss says the RAAF should, in fact, consider buying the F-22 Raptor, an even more advanced — and expensive — combat aircraft than the F-35. Both aircraft are manufactured by Lockheed Martin.

[SpazSinbad]

'TBM-LegEnd' that is interesting. Recently a bunch of Oz F-35 naysayers submissions to the Oz Senate F-35 Enquiry gave similar advice - restart F-22 line & buy 'em. I'm glad we can dismiss that notion out of hand and buy F-35s instead. Praise be.

[lvl4org]

Realistically the Super Hornet will get the job done until UAVs can take over in a decade or two. The current fleet is too old and it needs replacement ASAP. Sure it can't dogfight that well, but it's got a great radar, modern electronics and missiles, and it's an easy transition.

It's the right move.

[TBM-Legend]

http://www.google.com.au/url?q=https://www.flightglobal.com/news/articles/usaf-wants-on-time-f-x-not-more-f-22s-422950/&sa=U&ved=0ahUKEwjLyaqbsMHQAhXEjZQKHVmrCUkQFggsMAQ&sig2=twk5Bpt6ySpn8OtrR4C75A&usg=AFQjCNHlUq0Q9Z2jTamfoWk8Py5RxT9b1Q


From FlightGlobal earlier this year..


and:
The F-22 cannot be exported under American federal law to protect its stealth technology and other high-tech features. Customers for U.S. fighters are acquiring earlier designs such as the F-15 Eagle and F-16 Fighting Falcon or the newer F-35 Lightning II Joint Strike Fighter, which contains technology from the F-22 but was designed to be cheaper, more flexible, and available for export. In September 2006, Congress upheld the ban on foreign F-22 sales. Despite the ban, the 2010 defense authorization bill included provisions requiring the DoD to prepare a report on the costs and feasibility for an F-22 export variant, and another report on the effect of F-22 export sales on U.S. aerospace industry.
Some Australian politicians and defense commentators proposed that Australia should attempt to purchase F-22s instead of the planned F-35s, citing the F-22's known capabilities and F-35's delays and developmental uncertainties.However, the Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF) determined that the F-22 was unable to perform the F-35's strike and close air support roles. The Japanese government also showed interest in the F-22 for its Replacement-Fighter program. The Japan Air Self-Defense Force (JASDF) would reportedly require fewer fighters for its mission if it obtained the F-22, thus reducing engineering and staffing costs. However, in 2009 it was reported that acquiring the F-22 would require increases to the defense budget beyond the historical 1 percent of GDP. With the end of F-22 production, Japan chose the F-35 in December 2011. Israel also expressed interest, but eventually chose the F-35 because of the F-22's price and unavailability.

[glad rag]

"Praise be"

Well we all have our own thoughts on that little snippet!

[SpazSinbad]

I wonder if CRISS "former chief of Australia's operational Air Force" still thinks the Shornet is a 'superdogsquared'?

[tartare]

As an interested observer and two times FJ joyrider - I thought the prevailing wisdom on the F-22 was, fantastic air superiority fighter, incredibly powerful, but (stealthery aside) lacking in necessary avionics and other electronic wizardry to compete in today's fight?
In other words - a bit of a dinosaur?
Or am I wrong...

[spannermonkey]

The one thing people seem to be focused on is does Canada buy the F35 or the F18E -hmmm, ooooh, ahhhh shiny new things!!! Canada has benefited from a significant financial return in regard to work derived by supporting the build of the F35 as have other countries. If the F35 is not the chosen platform, a lot of money is going to evaporate from the Canadian aerospace industry and the new F18 is never going to generate the same level of work for industry.

However, if Canada does indeed decide on the F35 in the end, the issue is not the cost of the aircraft, the bigger question is how are they going to maintain them. The CF18, like many other fleets in Canada is military owned and civil maintained (for the most part). The F35 is a totally new aircraft and no one seems to be saying much about how its going to be maintained or by who.

As Armstrong and Miller would no doubt say - 'Its like, what shiny new toy will we be getting insn'it, cos we need the one which has bigger bombs and guns and sh1t and goes real fast n sh1t, so we can get cool medals and stuff - insn'it'.

[West Coast]

What's better than it if its a dinosaur?

[tartare]

I guess my question was prompted by the fight now not so much being about the ability to turn and burn as sophistication of sensors, data fusion and weapons deployed.

Eg:

It took the Air Force more than a decade to equip the Raptor with the AIM-9X because of the F-22’s obtuse avionics architecture—which is exceptionally difficult to upgrade. Even this recent addition of the AIM-9X is a jury-rigged interim measure called Update 5, which also includes an automatic ground collision avoidance system.

While the new software upgrade allows Raptor pilots to take advantage of the performance of the new missile, the jet’s targeting display will not show the correct symbology for the AIM-9X. Instead, the weapon will have the same displays as the current AIM-9M and pilots will have to compensate for the difference.

The situation will not be rectified until a new enhanced stores management system (ESMS) is added to the frontline Block 30 and Block 35 Raptors in 2018 with the Increment 3.2B hardware upgrade. With Inc. 3.2B, the F-22 will display the proper symbology for the AIM-9X. But even then, the F-22 will not have a helmet-mounted cueing system—which was deleted during the jet’s problematic development program in the late 1990s.

Raptor pilots will be able take advantage of many of the superior capabilities of the AIM-9X even without a helmet-mounted cueing system. But to fully exploit the outer edges of the new Sidewinder’s greatly expanded weapons employment zone, F-22 pilots will eventually need one.

Once the F-35 is fully operational, with DAS etc. will it be better than even the upgraded F-22? The impression I had up until now was that nothing would be able to touch the F-35 systems wise - but may be I've drunk too much of Lockheed's kool-aid.

[PhilipG]

There has been some talk of "If Canada does not buy F35s... loss of work on F35 parts".
If this is the case and the work presently being done in Canada is "repatriated" to the USA, how long will it take to set up a suitable manufacturing base? Yet another delay in the F35 project...

[TBM-Legend]

Canada may just keep floating the F-35 carrot and keep working on current F-35 parts projects.

The SH offers them a big window given that they are still 2-3 years away as well..

[BEagle]

But how would Canada resolve their F-35 AAR issue?

It seems that they were interested only in the F-35A, which isn't compatible with any of their national AAR assets...

No doubt some Lockheed snake oil vendor would tell them that removing the UARRSI from the F-35A and fitting the probe from the F-35B/C "wouldn't be a problem"... Apart from R&D and OTE costs, that is...

[PhilipG]

But how would Canada resolve their F-35 AAR issue?

It seems that they were interested only in the F-35A, which isn't compatible with any of their national AAR assets...

I have personally always thought that the F35C with a stronger undercarriage and better hook would be better version of the F35 for austere basing in Canada.

The fact that it has longer range and can in any case have AAR from the present assets are of course bonuses.

Not sure what would happen to the unit cost, whichever, if more Cs were ordered...

[SpazSinbad]

For 'BEagle': http://www.dodbuzz.com/2012/06/19/lockheeds-comprehensive-qa-on-the-f-35/
O’Bryan: “We [LM VP] anticipated a number of the operators would want probe-and-drogue refueling in the F-35A and we kept that space empty on the F-35A to accommodate probe and drogue refueling. We‘ve done a number of studies – funded studies, not projects – funded studies to evaluate that, paid for by the countries who want that to happen. It’s a relatively easy … doable change.”’
http://i619.photobucket.com/albums/tt271/SpudmanWP/F-35A_Drouge.jpg

[BEagle]

Paid for by the countries who want that to happen. It’s a relatively easy … doable change.

As I said. Bearing in mind the ridiculous, ever-increasing price tag for the F-35, who would be daft enough to even consider footing the bill for such a 'doable change'...:\

Rafale is the jet which Canada should be ordering, not the Super Hornet and certainly not the F-35 in any of its versions.

[SpazSinbad]

'BEagle' any evidence for this claim: "...ridiculous, ever-increasing price tag for the F-35..." and for Canada / anyone but the USofA paying for SDD?

[red admiral]

There has been some talk of "If Canada does not buy F35s... loss of work on F35 parts".
If this is the case and the work presently being done in Canada is "repatriated" to the USA, how long will it take to set up a suitable manufacturing base? Yet another delay in the F35 project...

JSF manufacturing split isn't done on a workshare basis as for some other programmes. There is competition in between the customers.

[Turbine D]

One thing about the Super Hornets, you know the cost to procure and you have a good handle on how much it will cost to maintain and keep them flying.

When it come to the F-35, what the true cost to produce and procure isn't clear from one day to the next. But, you can count on LM not losing money selling them. When it comes to the cost of maintaining them and keeping them flying, that is anybody best guess and will be for sometime into the future.

[PhilipG]

One thing about the Super Hornets, you know the cost to procure and you have a good handle on how much it will cost to maintain and keep them flying.

Another advantage of the Super Hornet is that you are getting a combat proven aircraft, that the US will keep up to date.

As far as the F35 is concerned, nobody knows what it can / will do as there are no final version 3F software load planes flying.

If the Super Hornet ticks the boxes...

Rafale would be my preferred option..

[Tashengurt]

Excuse my ignorance but what's wrong with the Super Hornet?

[SpazSinbad]

Will the Canuckian Shornet be the F/A-18EH - eh?

'PhilipG' wot is a 'final version of 3F [F-35] software load'? & some news otherwise:

RCAF?s Lt.-Gen. Hood throws a monkey wrench into Liberal claims about CF-18s | Ottawa Citizen (http://ottawacitizen.com/news/national/defence-watch/rcafs-lt-gen-hood-throws-a-monkey-wrench-into-liberal-claims-about-cf-18s)

[TBM-Legend]

On refuelling the F-35's grandfather, the F-105, had both methods for fuelling...

[SpazSinbad]

And how is that relevant? https://airrefuelingarchive.wordpress.com/2011/01/20/f-105-with-both-probe-and-receptacle/

[TBM-Legend]

Very relevant when you have a choice of tankers.

[SpazSinbad]

For the F-105? F-105 for Canada - I'll join that ARROW bandwagon any day - NOT.

[TBM-Legend]

The F-105 was a success. The Arrow like the TSR-2 simply gimmicks that did not reach production and prove themselves.

The dual refuel methods on the F-35 give options.

Back to the original Q. the SH will work just fine for Canada just like it does here. The Kuwaitis are buying the SH as well and operate the Legacy Hornet..

[SpazSinbad]

Why doesn't the 'super dog squared' have dual refuelling? Then it could be the 'sponge bob square pants' of miljet aviation.

[BEagle]

In English, please...:rolleyes:

[SpazSinbad]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpongeBob_SquarePants#/media/File:SpongeBob_SquarePants_characters_cast.png
“Major characters in the series (from left to right): Gary, Mrs. Puff, Squidward, Patrick, SpongeBob, Sandy, Pearl, Mr. Krabs and Plankton.”
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SpongeBob_SquarePants

http://i98.photobucket.com/albums/l261/SpazSinbad/NewNewAllBum/SpongeBob_SquarePants_characters_cast.jpg~original (http://s98.photobucket.com/user/SpazSinbad/media/NewNewAllBum/SpongeBob_SquarePants_characters_cast.jpg.html)