EK 521 Investigation will take 2-3 years

[777boyindubai]

http://m.arabianbusiness.com/emirates-crash-inquiry-take-two-three-years-says-gcaa-director-653469.html

[SOPS]

How is that possible?

[FlyingStone]

For sure it will be the most independent investigation in the history of aviation

H.H. Sheikh Ahmed Bin Saeed Al Maktoom
Chairman
Dubai Civil Aviation Authority

His Highness Sheikh Ahmed bin Saeed Al Maktoum
Chairman and Chief Executive Emirates Airline & Group

[Kamelchaser]

Because there are so many public holidays?

[777boyindubai]

They are hoping that people will forget not one but two disasters in the space of five months.

[anson harris]

The world's most luxurious 8 star investigation takes time habibis.

[what_goes_up]

How is that possible?
Cause that is what it usually takes for a full investigation?

For sure it will be the most independent investigation in the history of aviation

H.H. Sheikh Ahmed Bin Saeed Al Maktoom
Chairman
Dubai Civil Aviation Authority

His Highness Sheikh Ahmed bin Saeed Al Maktoum
Chairman and Chief Executive Emirates Airline & Group
Accident Investigation is done by GCAA and not DCAA. Not saying they are not connected to each other... But so are European / US airlines linked to their governing bodies...

[fatbus]

Is there not ICAO stipulated time frame

[what_goes_up]

Is there not ICAO stipulated time frame

This is not an ICAO thing. Those are state regulations. In the U.K. for example it says:
...to be made public in the shortest time possible (and, if possible, within 12 months of the date of the accident or serious incident)...
But if complex, it can take longer there as well. I don't know how well the Accident Investigation Board is organized in the UAE. If they need a lot of external expertise, it takes much longer.

[Dropp the Pilot]

What is the second one?

[flaphandlemover]

Fly Dubai B738 in Rostov

[Tu.114]

But the FZ accident is investigated by Russia, isn´t it?

[flaphandlemover]

There is always the state of registration involved...

[The.Humble.Guy]

What happened to EK571?

I know about EK521...

[springbok449]

Was just about to ask the same question Humble...

[notapilot15]

Just bad interior. Not trying to be humble.

4 years to final report is common. Usually memory fades out by then.

[777boyindubai]

Sorry everyone for the wrong thread detail. Perhaps the mods will be kind enough to change it for me!!

[LHR Rain]

What goes up?

What European or US airline controls it's governing body?
There is not one example. That is because the governing bodies are independent and actually try to get to the bottom of an accident and not cover up any embarrassing details.

[dubaigong]

There is some time limit set up for the investigation.
I have been interviewed by one of the GCAA Chief Air Accident Investigator about the FZ accident in Rostov and he told me clearly that a preliminary report should be published after one month ( it has been done ) and a final report after one year....
So I Wonder why it would be different for the EK accident ?

[what_goes_up]

What goes up?

What European or US airline controls it's governing body?
There is not one example. That is because the governing bodies are independent and actually try to get to the bottom of an accident and not cover up any embarrassing details.
None, but so doesn't EK. I said they are linked to the governing bodies. And trust me, they are. They have more of a say within CAA than you would think. This doesn't mean an accident investigation is not done properly. This is usually done by a separate unit within CAA or, preferably, by a completely independent body.

[what_goes_up]

There is some time limit set up for the investigation.
I have been interviewed by one of the GCAA Chief Air Accident Investigator about the FZ accident in Rostov and he told me clearly that a preliminary report should be published after one month ( it has been done ) and a final report after one year....
So I Wonder why it would be different for the EK accident ?

This is typically "preliminary report should be produced within 28 days and the report should be out within 1 year".
The magic word is should.

[MickG0105]

Cause that is what it usually takes for a full investigation?


Accident Investigation is done by GCAA and not DCAA. Not saying they are not connected to each other... But so are European / US airlines linked to their governing bodies...
The Chairman and CEO of Emirates, Sheik Ahmed bin Saeed al-Maktoum, is also:
- Chairman of Dubai Airports,
- President of the Dubai Civil Aviation Authority, and
- a Board Member of the General Civil Aviation Authority of UAE.

When you have someone sitting on the Board of the investigating authority who also represents the airline, the airport and the regulatory authority involved in the accident you might expect the whole process might move along a little faster; you certainly wouldn't expect any conflicting or argumentative testimony from any of the three parties the Sheik represents.

[what_goes_up]

The Chairman and CEO of Emirates, Sheik Ahmed bin Saeed al-Maktoum, is also:
- Chairman of Dubai Airports,
- President of the Dubai Civil Aviation Authority, and
- a Board Member of the General Civil Aviation Authority of UAE.

When you have someone sitting on the Board of the investigating authority who also represents the airline, the airport and the regulatory authority involved in the accident you might expect the whole process might move along a little faster; you certainly wouldn't expect any conflicting or argumentative testimony from any of the three parties the Sheik represents.
So are you saying he should be involved in the investigation to speed up the process or being left out of it to have an unbiased investigation?
BTW airlines all over the world are being directly involved in an accident investigation no matter who sits in the board. They have the right to receive the report before being published and demand(!!) changes to be made. This is, if it is believed that the report will affect adversely the reputation of any person (natural or legal). And believe me... There are frustratingly many changes demanded which, in it self, lengthens the process.
Not defending EK's situation. Just highlighting that the situation does not differ from other countries.

[Talparc]

It takes time to recover the FDR, but no worries there will for sure be another accident in the meantime.

[puff m'call]

Who really needs an investigation in to what happened?

Most of us here can tell you what happened, it's why it happened guess.:confused:

[The Outlaw]

Landing gear up is not uncommon...I'm sure a few have done it in previous careers...just how you come away from it and how its brushed under the carpet is what counts i suppose.

[MickG0105]

So are you saying he should be involved in the investigation to speed up the process or being left out of it to have an unbiased investigation?

Neither. I'm simply making an observation.

BTW airlines all over the world are being directly involved in an accident investigation no matter who sits in the board.

Yes, they are, that's not in dispute.

They have the right to receive the report before being published and demand(!!) changes to be made.

Airlines and airplane manufacturers can demand(!!!) what they like till they're blue in the face. The investigating authority is independent and the final content of the investigation report is at its discretion (Section 5-4 of Annex 13 to the Convention on International Civil Aviation, Aircraft Accident and Incident Investigation is unequivocal on this point.)

Just highlighting that the situation does not differ from other countries.

This is where we differ. Here we have a case where the airline, the airport and the regulatory authority are represented by one and the same person and that person also sits on the board of the investigating authority. If that's not extraordinary I'd be very surprised.

[nolimitholdem]

Landing gear up is not uncommon...

Was not a gear up landing. Not in the implied sense of "omitted to lower", anyway. Not trying to open another thread on the incident itself, that was well-covered elsewhere. Just FYI.

[harry the cod]

There will be many lessons to be learnt from this accident, not least of which will be Culture. National culture and Organisational culture will be the headline news I'm sure, but a lot will depend on what can and can't be published 'politically'.

Either way, EK and the ME region is not unique in it's desire to attempt to look further afield to apportion blame. Anything from unpredicted weather to poor aircraft and system design may feature. Far better that than to blame a relatively inexperienced national captain, burdened by years of rote training and handicapped by a paranoid organisation that openly discourages hand flying.

Even so, back in 1970, the total loss of a Dan Air Comet near Barcelona resulted in a disputed Spanish final report, one that the British AAIB argued was biased towards the local ATC. They never fully accepted the findings, stating that although the British crew were at fault for navigations errors, the controller too was equally culpable for mis reading his radar and giving a fatal descent clearance to the comet over mountainous terrain.

Whilst this was over 40 years ago, many Worldwide accident reports since then have omitted information which could be deemed 'unrelated' or 'inappropriate'. That often means culture is involved and it would be politically incorrect to speculate on something considered less concrete.

Ironically, these 'causal' factors are often instrumental in lining up the final holes in the cheese.

Harry

[The Outlaw]

Great post, I couldn't agree with you more.

[what_goes_up]

Airlines and airplane manufacturers can demand(!!!) what they like till they're blue in the face. The investigating authority is independent and the final content of the investigation report is at its discretion (Section 5-4 of Annex 13 to the Convention on International Civil Aviation, Aircraft Accident and Incident Investigation is unequivocal on this point.)
I would love to agree with you on this one! Unfortunately, the application is not quite as straight as in Annex 13. There is the statutory instrument "The Civil Aviation (Investigation of Air Accidents and Incidents) Regulations which is adapted by most CAAs of the Western World.
Notice of Inspector’s Report and Representations thereon
12.—(1) No report which is required by regulation 13 to be published shall be so published if,in the investigating Inspector’s opinion, it is likely to affect adversely the reputation of any person,until the investigating Inspector has—
(a)
where it appears to him to be practicable so to do, served a notice under this regulationupon that person, or if that person is a deceased individual, upon the person who appearsto him, at the time he proposes to serve notice pursuant to this paragraph, to represent bestthe interest of the deceased in the matter; and
(b)
made such changes to the report as he thinks fit following his consideration of anyrepresentations which may be made to him in accordance with paragraph (3) below by oron behalf of the person served with such notice.
(2) The notice referred to in sub-paragraph (a) of paragraph (1) above shall include particulars ofany proposed analysis of facts and conclusions as to the cause or causes of the accident or incidentwhich may affect the person on whom or in respect of whom the notice is served...
This opens a can of worms for the Inspector as he is personally legally responsible if someone thinks he is treated unfairly.
There is a lot of political and (financial) industrial pressure on the Chief Inspector during a major accident investigation. Having been involved in quite a few investigations in the Western World I have lost faith after seeing that even main contributors to an accident have been cleared from a report and will not get involved in any upcoming!
The chance to see an unbiased report from the UAE authorities is about as small as from a report from NTSB, TSB, UK CAA or any other.

[flatfootsam]

Why has the GCAA just sacked the chief air accident investigator who was the IIC for the UPS accident, was at Rostov for flydubai and Dubai for the EK accident and is arguably the most competent investigator in the dept if not the entire region?

[777boyindubai]

It must surely be one of those redundancy things. $50 oil etc. Of course, there are no other explanations....

[flatfootsam]

Actually, under ICAO Annex 13 the States of Design and Manufacture have the option to mandate the inclusion of their comments in the final report if they fundamentally disagree on points in the final draft.

If the State conducting the investigation receives comments within sixty days of the date of the transmittal letter, it shall either amend the draft Final Report to include the substance of the comments received or, if desired by the State that provided comments, append the comments to the Final Report. If the State conducting the investigation receives no comments within sixty days of the date of the first transmittal letter.

There are numerous precedents for this action and is generally indicative of an underlying root cause difference of opinion or a certification implication. Issues relating to litigious considerstions are generally secondary...although that doesn't explain the 2-3 years for the report drafting which is a bit of a hike for a straight forward report though as the bulk of the time consuming work would/will be the analysis. As there is a human factors and operational focus on what occured, that should just a few sim verifications, a look at approvals and training, throw in some HF/CRM voodoo buzzwords and the jobs done...or so it would appear.