Global Eye / PIC / DeVere / Acuma et al - Zurich Vista UAE

[Yorkshire_Pudding]

Every so often we see posts referring to the above organisations but no real detailed information on what they are selling to us and how to avoid getting trapped by them. I would like to fill the void and warn others of the experience. Every EK/FZ pilot I know have been contacted by these guys at some stage so I’m sure a lot of folk are sadly already trapped in the scheme (and maybe unaware of its pitfalls).


The fact is these companies along with a host of other one man band salesmen are pushing ONE product and one product only: - Zurich Vista (combined insurance and investment policy). Zurich sounds like a trusted household name so why they trash their brand by pushing this product and using local non-FA qualified (in any country) sale people is beyond me. Anyway, heres how this product works in reality;

———-
Supposedly high return off shore saving plan ideal for the expat pilot. Plans start from 5 years but they will push you into 20 or 25 year plans.

Premium contributions start from 300 USD pm but they will push you to sign up for 2000 USD pm minimum achieve your long term financial goals and receive the maximum bonus on offer.

Your first 18 months of contributions (Initial Contribution Period - ICP) are locked in until close to product maturity after typically 20 years. You will be awarded bonuses against these contributions but this part of your investment is subject to 4% account fees pA for the entire policy term. If you took this product for 25 years, 4 % x 25 years is 100% of all your payments GONE in fees.


So effectively after the ICP your account balance is still ZERO but this is initially masked by the bonuses you have received (which are then eroded over time by the high account fees). Where have all your payments gone? Well apparently equality between the three parties involved… Zurich, the UAE broker and your salesman. These commissions are paid upfront and you are unlikely too see much of your conman for another 12 months (was that one consultation really worth paying him over 12,000 USD?)

12 months in, out of the blue you hear from your "IFA". Great news! Zurich are offering a one time promotion! If you can increase your monthly contributions we can add up to 45% value to your account! If you agree, they have just reset your 18 month ICP again. Again, contributions during this new 18 month period go to the 3 parties and at the end of this 2.5 year period, your redemption charge is still 100% (they keep ALL your money if you close the account, not one dollar back). Everything masked by the bonus they give.

By this stage you might start to dig a little as your balance grows. Why is nobody else talking about this amazing investment opportunity? Finally the penny drops that you are deep in a trap! You consider all your options… cash in and loose all your “investment”, continue as normal or reduce your payments to the minimum amount (300 USD) and ride it out. Unfortunately, they are well ahead of you again. All charges on your account are based on the maximum monthly premium you have ever made (even if this was just for one month) and will be charged for the entire term of your policy, regardless of what you pay in each month. They are charging you on a virtual fund which will eventually also wipe you out.

You can over the term of the policy cash in the funds you have paid in, but there is a huge redemption charge. At year 10 of a 20 year policy, they will keep 54% of your savings!! For someone contributing 2500 USD a month, thats a 162,000 USD fee PLUS all the charges they made over the preceding years.

I have not even touched on the very complex and high charges they make on your account after the ICP period. But in reality after all these deductions, I cannot see how your account can grow more than about 1.2% pA, which, funnily enough, is the figure you need to achieve to get back all of your investment payments you have made over 20 years! If the NET growth after fees is less, you're out of pocket. Why go through all the stress for that? The main point is this will be sold to you as a flexible savings plan, which it certainly is not!

————
I hope this helps any new joiner avoid just one of the many financial pitfalls out here in Dubai. If you get a phone call hang up and block the number! LinkedIN request from anyone in Finance or Investment in the UAE - block them!! a business card - burn it!!! Invest back home if anywhere and not in a seemingly totally unregulated market like the UAE.

[MrMachfivepointfive]

Got burned by them. Pulled the ripcord after five years due to issues every month. Was lucky to get 70% of my total contributions out. Avoid! Avoid! Avoid!

[PPRuNeUser0215]

It should be a sticky 👍🏻

[Mr Good Cat]

Got burned by them. Pulled the ripcord after five years due to issues every month. Was lucky to get 70% of my total contributions out. Avoid! Avoid! Avoid!

The simple answer is:

Don't invest in the Middle East. The main reason not to invest in the Middle East, is because it's in the Middle East.

Same your investments for your home country protected by your own financial regulators.

[EK380]

Yorkshire_Pudding,

Thanks for the post.

I'm one of the victims of Zurich as well; my broker seems to Nexus. Had him come to my place and collect the cheques every 6 months; 2000USD per month. After about 10 years the total in the fund is still less than what I put in.

A few months ago I went down to 500USD; should have gone to 300USD straight. Guess what... since that moment the gentleman was all of a sudden not interested to come to my place anymore; a courier was sent to pick up the cheques; tell enough right?

I would like to pull out, but to be honest I'm not sure what would be the best way.

Feel free to PM me if somebody is in a similar case or has more info. Also looking in maybe moving the plan abroad (to ZRH?), however once again not sure what the cost etc... would be involved.

STAY AWAY FROM THEM; put your money under your mattrass and you'll be better off!

[MrMachfivepointfive]

A few months ago I went down to 500USD; should have gone to 300USD straight. Guess what... since that moment the gentleman was all of a sudden not interested to come to my place anymore; a courier was sent to pick up the cheques; tell enough right?Same happened to me. Then I was told that my cheques bounced (they didn't). I had to do all the run around with the banks to proof that they didn't. Then my account went into constant lock down due to my contributions supposedly being a dollar or two short each month. They never were, but once again, I was forced to run around and provide proof. No apology ever and as stated the Acuma gentleman became very uninterested once I reduced the monthly contributions. Eventually I baled. Mr. JN is now very eager to get me to rejoin and recover my losses. Unbelievable.

[halas]

Mate of mine who resigned this time last year after 8 years had been involved with this mob.

Same as the above. Complete BS and left with less money than he had started/contributed with.

Be careful.

[Emma Royds]

I signed up for this but stopped paying after the first month, based on advice from a friend back in the UK who is a Chartered Financial Planner. He told me to drop it faster than a hot potato as he felt it is 'ridiculously expensive and restrictive' :ok:

[xhamster]

You should be able to smell a rat a mile away. When someone randomly gives you a phone call and it's a guy on the phone and he is sweet talking you like he is your best friend for 10 minutes before delivering the punch line, you ought to know he is after one thing. And that's your money. Don't get greedy. You should get a decent payout from the company when you leave. What more do you want? Put whatever you can save (if you can save) into your account back home every month and be happy with that.

[BigGeordie]

Partly right xhamster. The company payout may well not be very "decent" and certainly won't be enough to finance a comfortable retirement on its own. You have to do more than just pay the minimum contributions into that or you will be sleepwalking into years of misery when you do leave.

People must take responsibility for their own money and not expect sweet talking financial con-men (sorry, advisors) to do it for them. The best piece of financial advice I ever received was never to invest in something I didn't fully understand. People won't look after your money for nothing so where is their cut coming from? How is the money invested? What are the ongoing charges? How do I get my money out? All basic stuff but it does appear some people are quite happy to sign up for a 20 year(!) plan without really understanding it.

[nolimitholdem]

The simple answer is:

Don't invest in the Middle East. The main reason not to invest in the Middle East, is because it's in the Middle East.

Same your investments for your home country protected by your own financial regulators.

Not much to do with the Middle East other than these schemes target expats and there are many in the desert. But they go after them all over the world.

Zurich International and Friends Provident… Should You Invest With Them? (https://andrewhallam.com/2011/11/zurich-international-and-friends-provident-should-you-invest-with-them/)

That's an article from 2011. And these scams were around for a long time before that.

And this recent one. Unfortunately, education is sometime expensive.

Zurich Vista Policy Holder Asks If He Should Sell It All (https://andrewhallam.com/2016/11/zurich-vista-policy-holder-asks-if-he-should-sell-it-all/)

[bluelearjetdriver]

The best thing you can do is educate yourself. Do yourselves a favour, read the book, Money Maste the Game by Tony Robbins. It will open a few eyes... trust me.

[GoreTex]

whenever they called me I made an appointment with them on a friday 7AM, because I know its their day off, when they said its too early I just told them that I meet a competitor at 9AM, I gave them a wrong address, usually in jebel ali so they have to drive for a while, with one guy I actually booked a 2nd appointment, that was too funny because he was a bit upset.

[Che Xindamail]

Gore Tex, brilliant!
Similar scam from Hansard International, years ago. Peddled by a slime bag named David L. I got in and out within a year.

[Aluminium shuffler]

I'm glad I didn't invest as the advice I was getting during a consultation from their child adviser (seriously, I don't think he'd started shaving yet) was clear bollocks. What was most disappointing is that a neighbour had given him my contact details and "recommendation" without asking me first. The rep pestered me for others' details, just like most gardeners, water filter fitters and such do here, who all get quite angry when you refuse. It is appalling that so many of our colleagues feel free to hand out our phone numbers to scammers.

[masalama]

Hi all,
This was my first "investment" in the UAE and was lucky to get my contributions value out after 10 years, that's 0% growth, actually -ve growth if you consider a nominal ROI or if I had invested back in my home country.

The only learning from this was to be very careful with what you do with your money, " A fool and his money is quickly parted" was very true in my case. If there's a higher power, universe , karma whatever watching all this, I want that flashy smiling SOB "advisor" to feel some of the pain we duped "customers" felt.

Luckily, I'm in my home country for the past 12 years and I'm much better off and the govt. takes a keen eye on how companies manage funds and things like commissions, deductions , etc., are well regulated here.

All the best folks and stay away from anything that promises unrealistic returns etc. and don't invest in countries where the legal recourses are not well defined.

[White none please]

Anyone have any good/bad experience with DeVere? Over a reasonable length of time?
Thanks.

[sluggums]

Run, keep running, and don't look back. They're one of the worst.

[Farrell]

Brent Mayhew was the DeVere guy I remember from Oman.

Local blogger covered him a few years back.

http://tinyurl.com/hstxg6r

[White none please]

Thanks Guys:ok:

[johnjonesnine]

Excellent thread!


I work in the broad area financial services - have done for 35 years. I have two degrees in financial disciplines and professional qualifications in banking and insurance.


I mention these not to boast but merely to show that industry insiders are also well aware of the appalling value (and advice) given by so-called financial advisers in the Middle East.


Most of these advisers hold no professional qualifications, and even if they do it is rarely more than the equivalent of an A level. They may have been selling double glazing last year, and perhaps time-shares next year - they are salesmen, pure and simple.


They sell insurance policies (disguised as investment products) issued by the likes of Zurich, Generali, Friends Provident, RL360 etc. that are "manufactured" in the Isle of Man or Channel Islands. Interestingly, these products cannot be sold in those jurisdictions (or in the UK generally). This crap is for export only!


An earlier poster said that you shouldn't invest in anything you don't understand - this is wise advice. Remember too that there is nothing wrong with having money in the bank (probably a bank in your home country). An investment property in an area that you know, in a country with a well understood legal system, is also always likely to be sound.


If you want to make plans for retirement, or children's education, or whatever, do by all means get financial advice, but here are my three tips:
1 Use an adviser in your home country. Ask them to show that they are properly authorized/regulated, that they have appropriate (at least degree-level) qualifications, that they are members of an Ombudsman (or complaints-handling) scheme and that they have professional indemnity insurance;
2 Pay them a fee for the advice. Clarify in advance how much the advice will cost and how the cost is calculated. This means you will have to write a personal cheque to them, but it will be cheap in the long-run. Insist that this fee is the only remuneration that they may receive and that they do not accept any commissions (or other soft-dollars e.g. "training" conferences in Las Vegas) from the promoters of the products they recommend; and
3 Watch all other costs like a hawk. Pay particular attention to investment management fees. Pilots are expert at flying planes, not at stock-picking. Pilots should never invest in anything other than passive or index-tracking funds. These kinds of funds are available with investment management fees of 1% per annum (or even less). Stick to these.

[Yorkshire_Pudding]

DeVere Acuma (PIC) are Insurance Brokers only and are NOT registered or authorised by the DIFC or DFSA here in Dubai.

They hold a license with the Insurance Authority in Dubai to sell insurance not financial investments. You can file a complaint with them through their website www.ia.gov.ae

Here is the surrender charge table for Zurich Vista - based on a 20 year plan - 25 year plan is worse. The percentage value is what THEY keep if you stop payments for a period of time or close the policy. They need to charge this because they gave away all your contribution payments made in the first 18 to 30 months to the salesperson who sold you the product!


Year
1 - 100%
2 - 97%
3 - 92%
4 - 87%
5 - 81%
6 - 76%
7 - 70%
8 - 65%
9 - 60%
10 - 54%
11 - 49%
12 - 43%
13 - 38%
14 - 32%
15 - 27%
16 - 22%
17 - 16%
18 - 11%
19 - 6%
20 - 0%

At the end of year 10 they would keep a fee 162,000 USD assuming a 2500 USD pcm policy and no growth (which is to be expected with this product due to high fees). This is very different to the encashment value in the personal illustration which is not a NET figure.

Due to all the high upfront fees and commission the policy will only break even at year 10, assuming you will then pay to maturity.

Remember if you stop or even reduce your payments (left employment or changed jobs) they will continue to making charges as if you're still making the full payments. This will eventually wipe out your account. After a period of no payments, the account will automatically be surrendered and subject to the above fees anyway.

[johnjonesnine]

One further addition to Yorkshire Pudding's post is that these policies are often sold on the basis that you can reduce the monthly contribution at any time. This part is true, but the bit that you are not told (except perhaps in very small print) is that the charges will continue to be calculated on the basis of the original contribution.


So if for example you take out a 20-year plan saving $2000 per month, and subsequently drop down to $1000 per month, the charges will continue to be levied as if you were still saving $2000 per month.


Appalling stuff really.

[Buford]

We should really name & shame the 'advisors' that took advantage of us all.

[sluggums]

Erm... All of them. Just pick any DXB based advisor.

[Yorkshire_Pudding]

The problem is they are only Senior Wealth Advisors in Dubai for 12 months or so, collect as much upfront commission as possible and move on to selling something. You have paid him/her for 20 years consultation fees upfront and they leave to sell luxury boats and the like.

[johnjonesnine]

Do also bear in mind that all of these guys have grand titles - at a minimum they are "Senior Wealth Advisers" or Senior Wealth Managers", even though some of them are just straight out of school!


I have never met a "Junior Wealth Manager" or a plain "Wealth Manager".:p

[TangoUniform]

Simple. If I get a random call, about anything, and the first words I hear on answering are along the lines of, "Good morning Mr. Xxxxx, how are you today?".....end of call.

[johnjonesnine]

I think the random calls are something they do when things are quiet, they don't have a high success rate, but if you have nothing better to do, or if you are using lowly paid staff....


Most people who fall in to the spiders web that these guys weave meet them initially in a social situation (e.g. at the golf/rugby club etc.) or through school activities.

[anson harris]

Utter scam - I was quite cheesed off to find that my name was given to one of these sharks when I joined Emirates, by a friend! The usual MO is that they sign someone up and then start hassling them for names of friends and colleagues that would also like to avail themselves of the same ripoff services.
Next thing you know some sharp suited DB who can't get a job in a real financial hub is round your place trying to sign you up to Zurich or whatever. I actually fell for it but luckily found a way out and got all my cash back (even plus a little bit of interest..). Luckily I realised what was happening fast - others are not so lucky.

[johnjonesnine]

I have looked over the website of this guy, Andrew Hallam, who is visiting the Gulf region in the coming days to give a series of seminars, mainly at schools, about investments:
https://andrewhallam.com/2016/12/millionaire-teacher-middle-east-speaking-tour-2017-january-february-march/

As far as I can tell he is the real deal, i.e. gives good solid advice on how to create a low cost investment portfolio, as opposed to being an insurance salesman.

It looks as if he may have a couple of books for sale, which I imagine you can take or leave.

If your kids attend one of the listed schools, and if you are free, it might be worth attending.


Disclaimer: I don't know and have never met Andrew Hallam.

[Dropp the Pilot]

If you do nothing else, buy his book "Global Expatriates Guide to Investing". It has chapters which specify what you should do with your money depending what country you plan to call home.

Follow his precepts (which essentially cut investment costs to the bone) and you will leave the region at least $250,000 wealthier than if you hire a "professional" to sell you things.

Hallam has nothing to sell but books - he is absolutely unexcelled for straight advice.

[johnjonesnine]

deVere has bought a bank in St Lucia.


What could possibly go wrong? Eh?

[Yorkshire_Pudding]

The Money Roundtable: Do long-term savings products serve their customers or their sellers? | The National (http://m.thenational.ae/business/personal-finance/the-money-roundtable-do-long-term-savings-products-serve-their-customers-or-their-sellers)

Analysts claim savers stick with them for just 7.6 years on average, but policyholders receive little back for exiting their plans after five, 10 years or even longer.

It is estimated that barely one in 20 completes the 25-year term. And those who do continue to the end often receive disappointing returns.

"To give you an example, if we have financial products that all in [cost] 4.5 per cent per year – and that is what we are seeing, 4.5 per cent, 5 per cent, sometimes higher – and the adviser is not doing anything silly and building a globally diversified platform, and if markets end up making, let’s say 7 per cent a year, and the investor is losing 4.5 per cent in fees, what do we have left?" said Mr Hallam, who is currently on a speaking tour of the Middle East.

"We have 2.5 per cent. But we have inflation historically, which has run historically 3 to 3.5 per cent per year. So it is my belief that you cannot retire effectively with the platforms that I have seen being sold prolifically throughout the Middle East."

[johnjonesnine]

Great clip from Boiler Room. This is how your "financial advisers" are trained:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfIKzReNDF4

[goeasy]

Went to one of his talks.
Brilliant.
just advice.
No sell.
But his book is worth reading.

Should be gift from company on arrival!

Look it up. NOW.
https://www.amazon.com/Global-Expatriates-Guide-Investing-Millionaire/dp/1119020980/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1488178903&sr=8-1&keywords=expats+guide+to+investing

[Dropp the Pilot]

Amen. Or don't read the book and end up with $250,000 less in your pension fund. Simple indeed.

[Che Xindamail]

Devere is calling expats in Doha at the moment. Beware!

[johnjonesnine]

Beware indeed.

In Qatar any insurance intermediary (for that is what deVere is) must be regulated either by the Qatar Central Bank or the Qatar Financial Centre Regulatory Authority.

If you get a call from deVere ask who are they regulated by, and please post the answer you get here.

They may say that they are licenced by some Ministry or other, but that's just the ordinary business licence that any bakery or dry cleaners will have - it will not permit them to sell or advise on insurance policies.

(Same applies to any "financial adviser" that contacts you in Doha.)

[johnjonesnine]

It has been reported that "The UK Financial Conduct Authority has ordered Holborn Assets Ltd to immediately cease all pension transfer business, particularly that introduced by overseas advisers."

http://www.international-adviser.com/news/1034897/holborn-assets-immediately-cease-pension-transfers?utm_source=Adestra&utm_medium=email&utm_term=&utm_content=Holborn%20Assets%20ordered%20to%20immediately%20 cease%20pension%20transfers&utm_campaign=newsletter_breakingnews_21_03_2017

Holborn Assets is very active in the GCC.

[MacSheikh]

I'm with Devere/Acuma. Don't have a savings plan, I moved my UK pensions offshore with QROPS.

My advisor is a Brit who has been in the UAE for 17 years. He speaks a lot of sense, tells me pro's and con's, backs them up with good info from the major players (G-S) etc. Only works on referral which is how I got involved. I'm happy to refer him. PM if you want details.

[Jet II]

I'm feeling a bit left out I have had a QROPS with Deveres for almost 10 years and have never been offered a savings plan of any sort. :(

[johnjonesnine]

QROPS may be a good option for non-UK residents who intend to live abroad permanently, but here's the kicker, most expats do not live abroad permanently, particularly married expats.

With longer life expectations generally we can think of retirement as having two phases, the years of good health when travel and otherwise pottering around sunny climes can be enjoyed, and then the older years where frailty and declining health begin.

The QROPS salesperson talks only of the first part, but we must also face up to and plan for the second part and the truth is that most of us will wish to die at home, in the country of our birth. For couples the first part will come to an end when one partner has a heart attack or stroke or cancer.

We all know there are many expats with younger Asian wives who plan to retire to Asia. I think that intuitively we also know that 19/20 will end up back in Blighty before they die.

Now if you are returning to the UK in your 80s, in poor health or with a partner who is in poor health, the last thing I think you will want to deal with are the legal and taxation consequences of a pension transfer that you arranged 20 years earlier.

MacSheikh, you cay that "My advisor is a Brit who has been in the UAE for 17 years. He speaks a lot of sense, tells me pro's and con's, backs them up with good info from the major players".

I'm sure your adviser is very agreeable company, but you have to ask yourself if you are equipped to tell the difference between a good adviser and an adviser who talks a good game. What qualifications (particularly pensions and tax related) does your adviser have, if any? Does he/she have professional indemnity insurance? Do you know how much the advice is costing you?

The fact that your adviser says that he/she only works on referrals is meaningless, they all say that. It is the financial equivalent of the barrow boys who sell perfume at a special price, only for you Sir!

Concerning DeVere and QROPS specifically you might not be aware that it is reported that DeVere is currently the subject of a review by the Financial Conduct Authority in the UK:
http://www.financialreporter.co.uk/retirement/devere-ceases-pension-transfer-advice-amid-fca-review.html

[MacSheikh]

JJ9

I have no idea where I'll end up.

Who knows what the legal and taxation consequences will be in 20 years? I do know that my pension pot is doing a hell of a lot better offshore than had it been in the U.K.

My advisor is British qualified and overseen iaw UK regulations. He has shown me letters from the UK tax office regarding specific QROPS questions which formed part of his advice before I decided to move my pension.

One of the first things he said to us was "you should ask me what's in it for me?"

I have referred several friends who are happy with him.

[johnjonesnine]

Hi MacSheikh

You say that your adviser is in the UAE for the past 17 years - I'm assuming he/she came from the UK. At that time there were no educational requirements in the UK to be a financial adviser, and there are still none in the UAE (where the market is effectively an unregulated wild-west). DeVere's founder, Nigel Green, even goes as far as to make a virtue of the fact that he prefers financial advisers who have no relevant qualifications (love the balls he shows in making the comparison to Goldman Sachs!):
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wbcSgiYju-w

Even if your adviser holds the minimum standard now required in the UK that is just a Level 4 qualification, equivalent to the first year of a graduate qualification. Now, would you use a lawyer, or a doctor or an accountant who had just one year of training under their belt?

If your adviser is living and working in the UAE then they are not authorized and supervised by UK authorities and are not subject to UK regulations. Full stop.

You say that your pension pot is doing better than in the UK. How do you know, have you modeled how it would have done under the UK? Also, take a look at your adviser's car/apartment/watch. Who do you think is paying for it, and where do you think that money came from? (Hint - your pension pot is part of the answer).

You may be one of those who has received good advice from Devere, but this firm is notorious for smooth-talking high pressure salesmen selling high-commission products. It has also had more than its fair share of run-ins with regulators in better regulated countries. In addition to the current review by the Financial Conduct Authority in the UK:
DeVere recently had its license suspended in Hong Kong:
DeVere Group has licence suspended following probe | South China Morning Post (http://www.scmp.com/business/companies/article/1804094/devere-group-has-licence-suspended-following-probe)
And DeVere also previously left Singapore after it was fined in that jurisdiction:
http://www.trustnetoffshore.com/News/DisplayStory.aspx?id=368

(PS If you have no idea where you'll end up then a QROPS is probably unsuitable for you. If you told DeVere that you have no idea where you'll end up then the QROPS may have been mis-sold).

[Jet II]

I have heard all the bad claims about high pressure selling from Deveres but I didnt get any (I must have been lucky) - in fact the only time I had someone wanting to sell me one of these long term 'savings schemes' was when I had a review from the crowd who look after the EK Provident Fund - I would have still been 'saving' at 73! :uhoh:

[Stags84]

I'm currently looking to invest in an offshore platform with them. May I ask who you have been dealing with? How have you found them to be?

[johnjonesnine]

Hi Stag84

For the avoidance of doubt I attach a below picture of an "offshore platform".

The term "offshore platform" is a meaningless term in financial services, but it is a phrase used by deVere and their ilk to disguise what they actually sell, which is insurance policies.

They may talk about a platform, but what they're really selling is an "insurance wrapper", a specialised type of insurance policy which is issued in either the Isle of Man or the Channel Islands. These policies have such high charges and opaque structures that that cannot legally be sold in the UK - this crap is for export only.

Now, as this is your first post I guess there are two possibilities, one is that you are an innocent abroad, and have no idea what you're getting in to, and the other is that you are a shill. I wonder....

http://www.lantechcom.tw/global/eng/assets/img/solutions/091.jpg

[johnjonesnine]

Hi

I'm travelling this weekend so it'll be a few days before I give you a detailed response - but I will.

Two questions:
1 Its the Zurich Vista product I assume? and
2 Can you post a list of the underlying funds that you are invested in - including percentages? (so that I can look at the risk profile and charges of those funds, and thus of your policy).

[Dropp the Pilot]

-https://andrewhallam.com/category/expat-investing/zurich-international-friends-provident/
-Take your lumps and exit Zurich ASAP
-Move on

[Jet II]

I dont know the details of the Zurich plan but Mr Hallams Low Cost Indexed Platform only comes out ahead if you get a total return averaged over the 25 years of 8%.

In todays low interest environment that would be good - Warren Buffet thinks that 6-7% is more likely and that is if we see growth at the same rate as in the past.

"My primary source for that number comes from Warren Buffett, who claims point-blank that you should expect a 6-7% annual return in the stock market over the long term."

Total return (http://www.thesimpledollar.com/where-does-7-come-from-when-it-comes-to-long-term-stock-returns/)

[Dropp the Pilot]

Mr. Hallams methods will come out ahead every time, all the time. There are no longterm circumstances under which paying 2.5% management fees to numbnuts who propose to "beat the market" will ever outpace a disciplined approach to index investment.

[Jet II]

Not in the scenario he details on his website. He is advising the investor to walk away from $39k already invested and rely on making 8% for the next 24 years.

I'm always wary about people who are flogging books on get rich quick, in most cases it is only the author of the book who makes any money.

[MacSheikh]

Will PM you.

[Dropp the Pilot]

If you think Hallam is about getting rich quick you are entirely bereft of reading comprehension skills.

[Jet II]

Please - his whole website is about flogging his books. :rolleyes:

[Dropp the Pilot]

Read one.

You will give him $20 and he will give you some advice .

If you have a million dollars with any of the pension firms you gave $25,000 to your account "manager" this year and received nothing in return.

You can play with your calculator a bit and see which of those is a better deal.

[BigGeordie]

Jet, if you are happy to give away 2% or so of your life savings every year in fees but won't consider paying $20 for a book that suggests an alternative (and easy) approach then you really do need some good financial advice!

[Jet II]

Jesus - I do wish people would read what others actually post. :rolleyes:

I have nothing at all against people going for cheap tracker funds rather than managed investments - I dont need yet another get rich quick book to tell me about them. What I was commenting on was this guys advice to walk away from a $39k investment with the 'expectation' that you are going to get a total return over the next 24 years of 8%.

But if you think this guy knows better that Warren Buffett perhaps you need to buy all his books.

[Jet II]

Dropp the Pilot

I retired at 55 and now live off my investments - funnily enough I did it without listening to guys trying to flog their books and telling me that returns of 8% were to be expected.

Now sitting on the beach drinking a Cerveza - where did it all go wrong.. :E

[johnjonesnine]

transport jock

I promised you a post about the Zurich Vista product and here it is, with apologies for the length of the post. This product (and others like it) are extremely complex, and they use a jargon that is not familiar to a lot of people. I have done my best to use plain language, but I’m not sure how successfully!

So, some background. Most people living in the Middle East are making a little more money than they would if they were at home, and with our parents’ words about thrift and saving for a rainy day ringing in our ears, we intuitively understand that we should be saving for that rainy day, or retirement, or university fees etc.

The fact that a person may be a successful pilot, or engineer or teacher etc., earning agood income, does not necessarily mean that their level of financial capability is any higher that their peers back in their country of origin. Study after study in the UK, the USA, Australia and other developed countries have shown that consumers have a lot of difficulty in understanding savings/investment/pension products.

We can of course simply let our money accumulate month after month in a bank account, but the temptation to upgrade the car or go to Hong Kong for the weekend can be difficult to resist and can disrupt the establishment of a regular savings habit. In addition, we also know that banks pay very little interest at the moment.

The solution that financial advisers often suggest is a regular contribution to a collective investment scheme.

A collective investment scheme is a type of financial product where the investments of a large number of people are pooled together. The rationale is that economies of scale can be brought to bear (thus, in theory at least, reducing investment costs) and also so that smaller investors can participate in opportunities that might otherwise be limited to larger investors.

There are three common legal frameworks used to create a collective investment scheme:

A unit trust;
A variable capital company; and
A unit-linked insurance policy.

Perhaps the key difference between unit-linked insurance policies and the other collective investment schemes is that the underlying assets of the unit-linked insurance policy are owned by the insurance company rather than by the investor, and the investor has no legal claim to those underlying assets.

The onlything that the investor owns is an insurance policy issued by an insurance company in the Isle of Man or the Channel Islands. The value of that policy may be linked to the performance of other assets (such as funds managed by Morgan Stanley, JP Morgan etc.), but those assets are owned by the insurance company.

PThis is an important distinction. These policies are often sold on the basis of the portfolio diversification benefits that they offer, but the truth is the opposite - if you buy a Zurich Vista policy you have a 100% counterparty exposure to a single company – Zurich International Life Limited, and if Zurich International Life Limited goes under those assets are available to meet the claims of all creditors.

Holborn Assets is authorised as an insurance broker by the Insurance Authority in the UAE, and I can find no evidence that it is authorised in any other capacity. That means that Holborn Assets can only sell insurance policies, and that any investment products that it sells are unit-linked insurance policies.

The history of these products is complicated, but suffice it to say that if you die while you own one of these products the insurance company will pay to your estate the value of your contributions to that point, plus a small margin, say 1%. That extra 1% makes these product, legally, insurance policies.

Now let us turn to the charges/costs of these policies. As the poster referenced Zurich I will look only at the Zurich Vista product, but others in the marketplace are broadly similar. Charges/costs fall under two broad headings – initial charges and ongoing charges.

The key documents containing most of the information on charges can be found here:
http://media.zurich.com/international/pdfs/MSP10238.pdf

https://www.zurich.com.sg/_/media/dbe/singapore/docs/life-solutions/savings-and-investments/msp10321-vista-product-summary-06-14.pdf?la=en&hash=A6B272D362C27C49F42FAA571937856270E082E4

https://www.zurich.com.sg/_/media/dbe/singapore/docs/life-solutions/savings-and-investments/msp10320-vista-technical-factsheet-06-14.pdf?la=en&hash=02BDF03DB000CA302AA4352CF5DC4348370C7D7B

Initial Charge. The first and most devastatingly expensive charge is made at the commencement of the savings plan. It is not called an initial charge, and you would really need to know your way around financial products to recognise if for what it is. It is called the “initial contribution period”, a period at the start of the savings plan (up to 18 months long) where your money is used to buy special units which have “no encashment value” (i.e. they are worthless).

Co-incidentally (not!) on the day you sign the application form Zurich will pay a commission to the selling broker of up to 18months’ worth of your savings!

Let us use the example (here and later) of a policy where you save $1,000 per month for 25 years – not an unusual scenario. That means that the day your broker lodges the application form with Zurich they get $18,000 in commission, cash, upfront!
It also means that after say 24 months, the value of your investment of $24,000 is just $6,000 (assuming no growth) because ofthe $18,000 in charges.

OngoingCharge. Sticking with the example of a $1,000 per month 25 year savings plan the ongoing charges (equally devastating for your financial health) are:

Policy Charge: $7.50 per month = 0.75%;
Policy management charge: 0.75 per annum;
Credit card payment charge: 1%;
Mirror fund charge: 0.75%
Average underlying fund charges: 1.5%
Underlying fund – other expenses: 0.5%

This gives us an ongoing charge rate of 5.25% per annum.

Now, the rate of return that can be expected from a balanced stock portfolio over the long term, adjusted for inflation, is generally accepted to be around 7%. If you are paying ongoing charges of 5.25% you haven’t a hope of achieving a 7% return.

Those ongoing charges are much more likely to result in poor investment performance than the “downturn in market forces” cited by your adviser.

[johnjonesnine]

Jet II

Clearly you do not think that it went wrong, but if after using the services of one of these advisers you are on a beach at 55 drinking Cerveza there is a good chance your adviser is in a 5-star hotel drinking champagne!

[johnjonesnine]

If you believe that the scale of the charges was not explained to you then you may have been mis-sold the product and you should make a formal complaint to the Insurance Authority in the UAE. You can submit that complaint via their website:
http://www.ia.gov.ae/en/Pages/default.aspx

As the person dealing with your complaint may not speak fluent English I would strongly recommend that you get a professional translation of the complaint into Arabic, and say that you are happy for them to respond in Arabic (i.e. make it easy for them).

Meanwhile, write to Zurich and tell them that you believe that you have been mis-sold the policy. Tell them that pending consideration of your complaint you wish to pause contributions without penalty, then cancel the bank instruction.

Perhaps you would keep the forum posted on how your complaint progresses?

[Jet II]

He would have a job as I dont have a financial advisor, I think they are all a bunch of crooks on a par with Real Estate agents - I self invest..

Besides, if these Investment Advisors are so good why are they not sitting on the beach with a Cerveza?

[johnjonesnine]

Perhaps I have you wrong, but back at post 42 you said "I have had a QROPS with Deveres for almost 10 years" so I think its fair to assume that you are a DeVere customer, albeit not a regular savings plan customer. I do also applaud your self-investment approach, it takes a bit of work, but it is so worthwhile.

I hope that QROPS advice was suitable. DeVere is currently the subject of an investigation by the Financial Conduct Authority in the UK in relation to its pension transfer business:
https://www.moneymarketing.co.uk/fca-launches-pension-transfer-investigation-devere/

It might be worth putting down that beer for a little while and dig out those old QROPS files. See if you can figure out how much DeVere made out of that transaction.

[Jet II]

I had Deveres set up a QROPS platform for me because at the time it was impractical to do it myself, I now self manage those funds through the holding company. Deveres made a decent amount out of setting up the QROPS platform but I rather doubt that any other financial advisor would have been significantly cheaper at the time.

[johnjonesnine]

Bear in mind the DeVere did not set up a QROPS platform for you - they wouldn't know where to begin. They sold you an off-the-shelf product manufactured by someone else. The only expense that DeVere incurred was in the time spent by the salesman talking you into the transaction. How many hours did that take, and how much commission did they earn? Do you know?

[MacSheikh]

JJ9

You make some good points but you're also spouting some real BS. My QROPS is with DeVere, my product is actively managed and I make the final decision based on information and advice from my advisor via quarterly meetings or more frequently if needed.

I have no doubt there are some real sharks out there but don't tar all with the same brush.

[johnjonesnine]

Let me ask you the same question, do you know how much DeVere took out of your pension pot when it was transferred?

[johnjonesnine]

Some interesting press about DeVere and QROPS:


Exposed: the rip-off investment 'advisers? who cost British expats billions - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/personalfinance/investing/11726158/Exposed-the-rip-off-investment-advisers-who-cost-British-expats-billions.html)


Expat gets pension restored by This is Money after it fell £80,000 | This is Money (http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/pensions/article-2570171/Expat-gets-pension-restored-This-Money-fell-80-000.html)

[Jet II]

Bear in mind the DeVere did not set up a QROPS platform for you - they wouldn't know where to begin. They sold you an off-the-shelf product manufactured by someone else. The only expense that DeVere incurred was in the time spent by the salesman talking you into the transaction. How many hours did that take, and how much commission did they earn? Do you know?

Do you know of any financial advisors that dont take commission for setting up QROPS platforms?. Given the amount of work that Deveres did in contacting my previous company and getting a transfer figure, organising all the contract paperwork etc - I would certainly be interested in the name of any company that does all this for nothing.

As for the cost well I just checked and it came in at just under 2%.

[johnjonesnine]

Most of the more reputable advisers (and I appreciate that its not easy to tell the difference) will set up a QROPS on a fee basis rather than commission. They don't like to do it though, and they may not advertise it. They will probably frame the choice in terms of "either you can pay me X amount in cash now or else I can take a commission from the company and you don't pay anything". 99.9% opt for the latter, even though it is far more expensive.

You asked for an example, well just Googling "fee-based QROPS advice" throws up this FCA regulated firm on the first page:
Fee based advice on QROPS, UK Pension Transfers (http://www.aesadviser.com/2015/11/fee-based-advice-on-qrops-uk-pension-transfers/)

(BTW, I have absolutely no connection to this firm, or any other financial adviser).

Regarding the amount of work involved, I would estimate the whole thing (excluding schmoozing with you) to come in at around two hours - max.

Now your average DeVere adviser has no (or at best very basic) financial qualifications. Compared to other occupations I would put them at or around the level of a regular mechanic or plumber. So I would value their time at no more than 75 pounds an hour. That means the value of the services provided to you by Devere is about 150 pounds.

You say that the transaction costs of your QROPS was 2%. I'm quite sure that 2% of your pension pot is a heck of a lot more than 150 pounds.

But the real kicker is that you didn't pay 2%. There is no commission-based QROPS in the market that only pays the broker 2%. 2% may be what they disclosed to you, They tend to start at 7% and go up from there:
Concerns raised over undisclosed QROPS transfer fees of up to 12% (http://www.pensionsage.com/pa/Concerns-raised-over-undisclosed-QROP-transfer-fees-of-up-to-12pc.php)

Full commission disclosure is not required for QROPS anywhere in the GCC - so when I hear a pilot or a teacher or an engineer telling me that they know what they are paying I have to wonder how that could be.

Post a link to the specific product that you bought and let us all have a stab at estimating the true costs.

[MacSheikh]

Methinks he doth protest too much!

[Jet II]

Well I checked out AES International (and I notice there is no shortage of complaints about their advice from disgruntled customers) and they show no prices for their services - in fact they seem more interested in managing your QROPS account rather than just setting it up - but I cant for the life of me believe that they will go to all the effort of setting up a QROPS account for £150 (or anywhere near that figure). If they were that cheap that would raise warning flags by itself.

What did strike me from reading about AES was this comment from one of their employees:

"After an initial 3 month training period you are immediately given levels of autonomy and responsibility found no where else in the financial services industry as a graduate."

so bearing in mind that their staff are paid on commission like the rest of the industry I somehow doubt that their advice will be any better/worse than Deveres.


Post a link to the specific product that you bought and let us all have a stab at estimating the true costs.

Well my QROPS account is with Sovereign in Guernsey, they charge a quarterly management fee of £96 and £15 for each buy/sell transaction.

https://www.sovereigngroup.com/pensions/guernsey/

I tend to keep a lot of cash in my QROPS account so the buy/sell fees are insignificant. As far as products go my priority for this account is capital preservation so that rules out tracker funds (I dont like to use managed open funds), therefore I went with Structured Notes. This is one of the first that I invested in, there is a 4% buy in with no management fee and this one happened to close early after 2 years with a 32% return. I still have some Notes but the returns are not as good as they were, the glory days are gone, but they still return around 8% with a 60% barrier against market falls.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/jsx22qkz1ilyx2z/MS%20Note.pdf?dl=0

I get that you dont like Deveres but in my experience they are no better or worse than any other Financial Advisor in the business - after all if these guys were any good they would have made their millions and would be retired to the Bahamas.

[johnjonesnine]

Hi Jet II

Thank you for your response.

I will do some research and revert. But one question, what did you transfer out of? A Defined Benefit or a Defined Contribution scheme?

You say "I get that you dont like Deveres but in my experience they are no better or worse than any other Financial Advisor in the business". I think were really in agreement here.

I don't dislike Deveres any more or less than any other financial advisory firm in the GCC. They are all poorly qualified salesmen/women, selling high-commission poor-value toxic financial products (products that would be illegal in the UK) in an unregulated market. If you deal with any of them you have little or no come-back as a consumer.

Devere are just bigger (and thus I assume better at it) than anyone else.


Regards

[goeasy]

jet II,

What you leave out of your criticism of Andrew Hallam, is compounding.

8% compounded over 25 years works out to a lot more than 8% profit. And it will be a lot more than any managed fund or average IFA can do.

That is Warren Buffetts advice too, if I believe AH.

My 300k invested in Generali over 8 years has made a whopping 1%. Don't go anywhere near the likes of Generali/FP/zurich even as recommended by nice trustable UK trained/qualified/experienced IFA. Nice blokes. Bad maths.

[Jet II]

goeasy

I was responding to Hallams suggestion on his website that you should walk away from a $39k investment as with an annual return of 8% the end result is a larger payout. I have already shown that Warren Buffet doesn't think that 8% return is achievable in the way that Hallam does.

I dont disagree that low cost trackers are a better investment strategy for most people - just in this case Hallams expectations are rather hopeful. He sounds like the guy who sold me my first endowment years ago that had all these wonderful examples of money to be made at rates of return that never materialised.

https://andrewhallam.com/2016/11/zurich-vista-policy-holder-asks-if-he-should-sell-it-all/

Just noticed that Hallam also promotes AES International....

[johnjonesnine]

Hi Jet II

I am referring back to your post #76. Apologies for the delay in getting back to you, I was laid low by man-flu!

I have tried to do some research into how much money Devere got paid out of your pension pot for selling you the QROPS but to little avail. The link you provided to Sovereign Group gives no information about that – do you have any documents from the time of the transfer that might shed light?

One of the things that I always look at when considering pensions or investments for myself is who is the person standing behind my pension/investment – how deep are their pockets, and what comeback do I have If they go bust (in passing, one of the minor consolations of buying the crap savings plans that these so-called financial advisers sell is that at least there is a large quoted and rated insurance company (e.g. Zurich, Generali etc.) standing over the obligation).

Your say that your QROPS is with Sovereign Group in Guernsey. I’m really struggling to find any meaningful information about who the SovereignGroup is. They appear to be supervised by the Guernsey Financial Regulator, but I can find no information about who owns them, nor how big they are. They are Gibraltar based, established in 1987, but don’t appear to have a credit rating from any of the credit agencies. I can’t see if there is an actual group (i.e. a pyramid of companied with a holding company at the top) or a collection of entities in different jurisdictions owned by the same person(s) (this is important from a corporate governance perspective).

As far as I can tell the operations of Sovereign Group in Guernsey are not covered by any investor/consumer compensation scheme, so if anything goes wrong you have no come-back.

The Chairman (and I think founder) of Sovereign is a guy called Howard Bilton, who appears to live in Hong Kong. So we have a Hong Kong based businessman, who owns (it seems) an unrated financial group based in Gibraltar, which has a subsidiary in Guernsey (with no compensation cover) that issues QROPS to GCC based expats now retired in X (wherever it is that you are enjoying that beer). I hope nothing goes wrong – if it does it will be a nightmare! Frankly, I would not be comfortable if my financial security in old age rested on that type ofstructure.

I have also looked at the document you posted about the Morgan Stanley Note, but again it gives no specific information about charges.

It is useful however as an example of the risks that these products present and why they are generally unsuitable for retail investors. The Morgan Stanley document says that these notes “are senior unsecured obligations of Morgan Stanley”.In other words you don’t own any underlying investment, you have a 100% counterparty exposure to Morgan Stanley, and the obligation is unsecured, therefore you will rank lowly among the creditors if Morgan Stanley hits financial troubles.

Morgan Stanley is a bank, and normally monies given to a bank are covered by government deposit protection, but Morgan Stanley make it clear that “the notes and deposits are not insured or guaranteed by the Federal Deposit Insurance Corporation”.

In Morgan Stanley’s own words “Structured products are predominantly high risk investments”. If you are happy that you understand the way in which the underlying deposits and derivatives (including leverage) are assembled, and are happy with the caps on returns that are typical, then go ahead.

Incidentally, you say that your note closed early after 2years with a return of 32%. I am happy for you, you deserve a good return because you took a lot of risk (and that risk/return relationship is immutable). You should however ask yourself why it was redeemed early. Was it because it was so deeply “in the money” that it made better sense for Morgan Stanley to take over your position?

I’m happy to engage further with you on financial issues generally, but what I’m really interested in is getting to the bottom of the charges of financial advisers, so if you have information on that please share.

[johnjonesnine]

It is reported by Bloomberg that DeVere is under investigation by the SEC in the United States:
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-05-24/firm-targeting-nest-eggs-of-u-k-expats-said-to-face-sec-probe

[Donamed]

Hi,

Thanks for your very informative advice on Zurich and Devere. I just bought in to it for life and education investment for my kids with 2718 dollars monthly. How can I withdraw from it and will I get anything back from the money I have contributed - just three installments.

[johnjonesnine]

Hi Dona

Perhaps the first thing to do is cancel any future payments so that the sum-at-risk is capped at the three contributions that you have made so far. You should contact your bank immediately in this regard.

You should write to Zurich and advise that you will be making no further payments at this time as you believe that the policy was not suitable for you. Do not cancel the policy at this time, but tell Zurich that you will be seeking a full rebate of all monies paid.

The next step will involve engaging with deVere. In order to give you better advice in this regard can you please say what country you live in (and did you buy the policy from deVere in that country)?

You might find that deVere will contact you before you contact them. This is because the day you signed the Zurich documentation Zurich paid deVere (and deVere paid your "adviser") thousands of dollars - possible up to $18,000 or more. Zurich will now want to claw that back, and the "adviser", who has no doubt already spent his/her share, will desperately want you to keep up the payments.

If you are contacted by deVere I strongly suggest that you say that you are happy to engage with them, but only in writing. Everything from now on must be documented. No meetings, no cups of coffee etc.

Please let me know what country you are in.

[Donamed]

Thanks JJ,


I work and live in Dubai and will do as you suggest.I did buy the policy through De vere

Thanks

Very much

[Donamed]

I did buy the policy from Devere

[Lance Murdoch]

I was foolish enough to sign up for one of these plans a few years ago. Fortunately I never have all of my investment eggs in one basket so was paying much less into the plan than the maximum. Once I realised what was happening I cut and ran. I calculate that I have lost circa 10000USD which is enough to be annoying but isn't really life damaging. I now view it as an expensive lesson in expat money management and I will not make the same mistake again.

I work in a field completely unrelated to aviation but I used to be an aircraft engineer and I still maintain my PPL as well as an interest in aviation. I read these pages because often they contain useful advice about general living in Dubai, this thread being an example. Thanks to Yorkshire Pudding and others as it was only after seeing this thread that my suspicions were confirmed that I was being ripped off.

I've not anything else to add other than to reiterate what others have said i.e. do not touch these schemes with a barge pole.

[Captain Partzee]

Any info about Friends Provident International?

Thanks.

[Dropp the Pilot]

https://andrewhallam.com/2015/05/if-you-invested-with-friends-provident-make-the-best-of-a-bad-situation/

https://andrewhallam.com/2011/04/weve-just-been-scammed-by-friends-provident-so-what-now/

[Captain Partzee]

Droop-the-pilot.
::ok:

[lasher]

Firstly! Thank you all for comments on De Vere and Zurich Vista. You are right, the salesman was trying hard to sell it to me. Surely not going for that.
Me and my husband have a joint life insurance policy with Zurich for life and ciritical illness. Has anyone got any payments from Zurich for life or ciritical illness? Appreciate replies.

[Dan Winterland]

There's a rash of them in Hong Kong as well. A recent increase in regulation in the UK has forced some of the worst ones to seek victims where the regulation is lax, or non existent.

[RevoBlu]

Hi Everyone.
I'm not a pilot I'm ATC at SHJ. I got into a fund with Friends Provident through Devere back in 2014. I had the 20 yr plan. I never reached beyond my 18 month initial payments because I raised the amount I put in a year after joining. I stopped all payments middle of last year Thank God. But I've been letting the fund just sit there. It's not earning or losing. I put in a total of $25 thousand US Dollars over that time. The statements are saying its worth $34 thousand now. I just started research on this topic last night and have been up for 7 hours straight in front of my laptop researching these overseas scams and reading a lot from Andrew Hallam and his advice. Bought the book on Kindle.

I just found your thread here on the topic. Thanks for the great info here. I'm going to take out what I can even if its $500 dollars and just take the hit on the rest. $25k is a lot of money to just give away to someone but to take the pain and heartache off my back its worth it. I'll make it back in salary in a few months. That's how you have to look at it. There's so many stories out there of people losing over $70 thousand dollars but they knew it was worth it to just get out. Now Devere is Acuma, I sent an email to Acuma in Dubai and it got returned address does not exist. Now its being taken over by that RB company.. RB122432 whatever the hell..

I have a co worker that is with Zurich I told him about all of this last night, I told him stop sending them money right now. Look at this crap..its a scam..I just hope he heeds my advice.

[RevoBlu]

If you read the comments on a lot of Andrew Hallam's articles there's stories of people in Singapore, Hong Kong, Vietnam that are all being scammed by this product.

[johnjonesnine]

Hi

Ignore the value on the statements that you are receiving, that is probably inclusive of the worthless Initial Contribution Period units. Send an email to Zurich and ask them for an encashment value.

[Jack D]

I have used Zurich for home and motor insurance and found them to be non combative when it came to honoring any legitimate claims , all paid in a timely fashion with minimal fuss . As for life insurance a personal recommendation would be to only purchase the most basic term life insurance and invest the payments saved yourself , or put it under the mattress in Swiss Francs .
I have to add that I lived in Switzerland . These overseas franchises are often not subject to rigorous regulation ... and might even be trading on a well known brand name with no connection whatsoever to the company they purport to represent . An indication of this common scam might be familiar yet spurious branding e.g Xurich or Zurich Advance etc .
Life insurance and double glazing sales personnel are remarkably similar ... avoid ! and save your money .

[Jack D]

Sorry forgot to add , if you are buying life insurance " with profits " first of all don't ! and if you feel you simply must . then deal directly with the company .... no third parties ! Especially not in the ME

[johnjonesnine]

This is a slightly complicated response, but bear with me and I will try to explain some key market features.

There are two broad categories of insurance – life and non-life. Insurance companies can offer one or the other, but not both (though life and general insurance companies can have a common owner, such as in the Zurich Group).

Non-life insurance (or general insurance) covers risks such as home, motor, travel, property, liability etc. Non-life insurance products have a term of 1 year typically, and pay out if defined losses occur. From a consumer’s perspective it offers peace of mind even if no loss occurs and compensation if a loss does occur.

Life insurance, as the name suggests, is the insurance of a life (or joint lives). There are two different types – one of which we might call conventional, and the other is investment linked.

A conventional life insurance policy will pay out a sum of money in the event of the death of the insured person. These types of policies are usually used to ensure that a family is not left destitute by the death of parents, or to ensure that a mortgage is paid off if the borrower dies. Like general insurance, conventional life assurance offers peace of mind even if no loss occurs and compensation if a loss does occur.

The second type of life insurance is an investment linked policy. This is very different to other types of insurance, and this is the type of insurance sold by deVere and other similar firms.

In some respects an investment linked policy is like any other investment, you can invest a lump-sum, or regular savings. However what you are buying is legally an insurance policy. In the event of the death of the policyholder (or investor) the insurance company will pay out (typically) 101% ofthe value of the sum invested. That extra 1% is the only insurance element, but it is sufficient to meet the definition of an insurance policy.

Investors often think that they own a portfolio of funds issued by various fund managers. This is not true, what they own is an insurance policy, the value of which is linked to those funds, but they do not own those funds.

These types of investment linked policies used to be widespread, but they are dying out because the outrageously expensive and opaque charging structures have been outlawed in most developed markets. They are still offered by insurance companies operating (usually) out of the Channel Islands and the Isle of Man. However they cannot be sold in those jurisdictions – this junk is for export only! They are usually sold by commission salesmen/saleswomen in poorly regulated countries.

So referring back to your post – the general insurance products that you bought were issued by a Zurich-branded general insurance company, probably established in Switzerland or a well-regulated onshore EU jurisdiction.

The Zurich investment products that deVere and others sell are issued by Zurich International Life Limited in the Isle of Man, a completely different company, offering completely different products, and governed (as far as the sales process is concerned) by no law.

[sluggums]

Thanks very much for that. Very informative.

[FLEX/MCT]

I got suckered in by one of these DeVere scams when I first joined five years ago. It lost money pretty heavily for the first three years then rebounded well when the markets were buoyant to around a 14% gain. Thing is with the fees as high as they are I'll get stung again if the markets turn.

I've been working with Aly Ramzi at Mondial to transfer my money away from the unscrupulous and uncaring DeVere and into Mondials portfolio. Aly doesn't have any vested interests in screwing anybody over and is in a good place to advise on wether to stay in and reduce your fund charges to the minimum or bail out and take the upfront penalty and attempt to rebuild with your remaining money using the C fund or other low-charge platforms that do not require regular defined contributions that penalise you for not paying!

I won't put his direct email on here due to the obvious spambot implications but those of you with Mondial advisors can probably work it out or alternatively PM me, same if you have any further questions.

I can assure you I have no vested interest here but to recommend an avenue of help for anybody who finds themselves bitten by these cretinous companies and their toxic products.

[johnjonesnine]

Hi Flex

I have to tell you to be extremely cautions - and I'm going to be brutally blunt - you know as much about financial services as I do about flying airplanes - nothing. While I don't dispute your assessment of DeVere, there is a very big danger that you will jump out of the frying pan and into the fire.

Let's do a little forensic due diligence on Mondial.

Firstly, their website seems to be out of operation:
https://www.mondialdubai.com/

Secondly, I can find no trace of Aly Ramzi - his LinkedIn page seems to have been taken down.

Ask him for a copy of his terms of business, and a copy of the prospectus of the C plan - let's take a look under the hood.

BTW, the value of your existing plan is the money that you would get if you sold it. Ignore the fake values that you get on your statements. Email the insurance company and ask for the current encashment value.

Regards

[SmilingKnifed]

JJ, just for background info if you’re unaware, Mondial are retained by Emirates for consulting on the company’s provident fund. Each pilot is eligible for a twice-yearly consultation meeting.

[johnjonesnine]

Well, that is good, but employers do not have a fantastic track record in looking out for their employees best interests.

I am not referring to Mondial here, but I have come across situations where the basis of awarding investment advisory/consulting contracts in relation to employee benefits was not the quality of the adviser but the quantity of the kick-back to whoever had the decision power.

Mondial is a regulated entity (the UAE SEC - and that is welcome) but that factor, and the consulting role Mondial has in relation to the company’s provident fund, does not give it a free pass when it comes to scrutinizing the fees and charges that come with its services.

In the long run the single most decisive factor in determining the value of your investments is not the skills of the advisor (most can't beat the market, and it is impossible to know which ones will), nor even market movements (because in the long run these tend to smooth out) but it is the amount of money that is taken out of your investment in fees, charges, commissions etc.

[Captain Partzee]

"(most can't beat the market, and it is impossible to know which ones will)"
And for sure. These scams will never.
Let see. You will pay 1.5% quarterly as a fee on your first 18 monthly payments until the end of your plan.
So that means you will pay 6% as fees per year plus 1.2% of all your investment per year.
Of course, it's not only that. The fund you have chosen or your "financial adviser" has fees. On average 1.8% per year. And last but not least, more US$ 6 monthly.
Let's assume that you or your "financial adviser" have chosen 3 funds
You will pay roughly 9% in fees even if the market is plunging.
The S&P 500 return is approximately 10% year since its inception back in 1928. Adjusted for inflation the real return is more like 7%. :mad:

[johnjonesnine]

All correct - but I think it understates the costs!

The disclosed fees of the underlying funds are often much higher than 1.8%, more like 2.5%. Advisers tend to promote higher cost funds, presumably because they get a kick-back from the fund manager.

On top of that the funds are allowed to pay some costs (e.g. audit fees) that are not disclosed. The general consensus is that these add a further 0.5%.

Also, if you have a regular savings plan you are often encouraged to pay from your credit card account. The plan provider will normally charge an additional 1% for this.

Finally, just be clear about the first 18 months, the advisers and the prompters go out of their way to obscure and complicate what is happening, but it is really quite simple. The whole of your contributions for the first 18 months is paid to the adviser, upfront, as commission.

So if you buy a plan saving $1,000 a month for 25 years the value of that plan after 19 months is $1,000. You will get a statement telling you that it is $19,000, but the encashment value, which is the real value, will be just $1,000.

You get the $18,000 added back into your investment pot if you hold the plan to maturity. Approximately 5% of 25 year plans are held to maturity.

[shamonwillye]

Hey guys,

Friend of mine has the Vista policy, he's in it 3 years (25yr term) with around €43,000 invested (of which €7500 is the bonus)

Here is his plan.
Suspend account (max 3 years)
Take a partial surrender (approx €14k) (remaining balance 43-14k = €29k)
Every 3 years, reactive account with min instalment €50, then suspend again for 3 years.
Continue to do this until Term ends.

Effectively when term is reached, you can get the remaining €29k.

So far the account is suspended 9 months, and lost no money, as the funds is making enough to pay off the fees, in some cases it makes over €1k in one month, so as long as this continues,...it could work, right???

Thoughts guys, anyone have other ideas?

Or just do a Full Surrender?

Thanks.

[johnjonesnine]

Your friend's plan is a really bad plan, based either on poor advice, or poor product knowledge.

Cash in the plan and walk away - chalk it up to experience, unless your friend is in a jurisdiction that is properly regulated, in which case complain!

[Lance Murdoch]

The major flaw in the plan is the assumption that it continues to make €1000 per month. The fund is doing well because global stock markets are doing well. As soon as the market starts to fall (ignore what the commentators say, stock market bull runs always end eventually) the fund will start to lose money and your friend will still be paying the fees. I suggest that you take the full surrender and move on viewing it as an expensive education in money management.

[johnjonesnine]

Sorry to disagree with you, but you couldn't be more wrong.

The major flaw with these plans is not the BS returns that you are promised. The major flaw is what you are not told, which is the level of commissions and charges, and the impact that this will have.

The level of these charges are so high that there is no possibility that your plan can keep up with markets.

If you save $1000 per month into a passive investing fund for 25 years you can expect 7% per annum over the long-term, giving a maturity value of $820,500.

But if you buy one of these policies, with annual fees of 6.5%, the value of a similarly invested portfolio will be $320,500.

In other words, the true cost of the advice to buy this policy was $500,000!

Now the adviser doesn't get $500,000, but that is the true cost of their advice to you.

[giord]

Hi guys,

I'm another one of those who fell into their hands due to poor knowledge of the system and the dogma that when You are in the ME You "must have a pension scheme".
After 3.5 years of UAE and PIC treatment I have relocated back to the good old Continent. I have suspended my payments since then, that is for 1.5 years now on a 25 years plan. I have an advisor in my country who is pushing me to restart the payments (obviously) but my idea is to get out of it being aware of the huge penalty that I will have to face. I feel sick thinking about the penalty of the full surrender value but I think that if I keep going with that plan for all the reasons mentioned by all the knowledgeable posters above it will be even worst. Any thoughts ? Treat it like an expensive finance education course as wisely stated above ?

Thanks !

[Yorkshire_Pudding]

You will get some of the funds back at 3.5 years, but obviously your pot will have shrunk with all the fees and charges still being applied whilst you froze payments.

I was told you need to make 10 full years of payments just to break even on the fees and charges and for the fund to grow thereafter.

If you had been making large contributions in the UAE which you can no longer afford to make back home and you reduce your monthly payments, all fees are still charged at the higher contribution rate. Your fund cannot grow and you are just servicing more losses. This might be the deal breaker for you to consider?

[Bird36]

Hi guys
Thanks for sharing your experiences.
Anyone had a surprise with AES International in dubai?
Thanks.

[Captain Partzee]

Check if they have fiduciary responsibility. Financial advisers or brokers must to be fiduciaries. This means they have to invest for you not for them.

Good luck.

[Bird36]

Yes, they employ high qualified fiduciaries.
I am looking for some feedback about them.
Thank you.

[johnjonesnine]

That post makes no sense. Financial firms do not employ fiduciaries, rather the firm itself may, or may not, have a fiduciary duty to its clients.

Are you a shill?

Regarding AES, their website says that "AES Middle East Insurance Broker LLC is regulated by the UAE Insurance Authority, licence no. 189":
https://www.aesinternational.com/legal-information/authorisations-and-regulations

So they appear to sell the same insurance-based, unit-linked, toxic savings plans that everyone else is selling to the gullible.

[FREQUENTFLYER1234]

Probably worth a visit or a read of his book before you commit to anything with one of these advisors.

https://www.thenational.ae/business/money/finance-guru-andrew-hallam-s-new-guide-for-expats-wanting-to-become-wealthy-1.695214

[johnjonesnine]

Yes, I highly recommend Hallam.

[Dropp the Pilot]

The book is absolutely top notch and has an appendix which adds advice specific to your home country's tax regime to help you avail of all your advantages whilst you are an expat.

Follow his very simple advice and you will return home at least $250,000 richer than your EK colleague who lets his money be incrementally robbed from him in the C fund.

Before you type your nay-sayer's response be aware that Hallam only offers his very astute advice and is trying to sell you nothing but his book.

[harry the cod]

Dropp

With all due respect, it's not that type of fund that should be avoided. In fact, if you read his advise, the C fund type investments are not his target. Sure, managed funds take charges and these should not be ignored, even if they are discounted as in the PF. Over time, the % fees charged by fund managers add up. Statistically, you're probably better off investing in a simple low fee tracker fund.

However, It's the likes of DeVere, Globaleye etc with their locked in policies and massive hidden up front charges that really screw people and it's these that need avoiding.

[Dropp the Pilot]

https://investor.vanguard.com/investing/how-to-invest/impact-of-costs

[harry the cod]

Not disagreeing with the obvious Dropp. Think you may have sent a similar link before!

A friend of mine has actually met this individual and says that his lifestyle is fairly frugal. To him, it's all about surviving on the minimum and not 'wasting' a single cent that could otherwise be invested! Fine in itself, but you end up living your whole life centred entirely around saving and never get to enjoy the benefits of your ever increasing wealth.

Life is about balance, as are investments. This guy invests in equities and bonds. Nothing else.

[Murrenfan]

Dropp, I do agree with you, Vanguard funds and their associated ETFs have the lowest expense ratio in the market, some ETFs like VOO and VTI are as low as 0.04%. However Vanguard does not allow you to open an account with them if you're a UAE resident, same with most brokers in US. I was trading my ETFs with DeGiro in Europe but now new european regs don't allow you to trade funds where their prospectus are in a different language. Most of trackers such as SP500 or FTSE and SPY have english prospectus and can't be traded in Europe anymore. I'm running out of options. "C" account is what I have left even though I know it's quite expensive as most of mutual funds. You can still use Swissquote and Saxo platforms but that will cost a leg and two arms every time you trade.

[Highway1]

I had no problem opening US trading accounts with Interactive Brokers whilst I was in Dubai for myself and my wife. The only issue if you are investing in US stocks and funds is that the US has no tax treaty with the UAE so all Dividends are subject to 30% Withholding Tax. I also opened an account with OptionsXpress who are now Schwab.

For European markets I had a trading account with TD Waterhouse in Luxembourg (I think they used to be Internax) but I would hesitate to recommend them.

[johnjonesnine]

I am an EU citizen and I am most comfortable investing in Euro denominated and EU based stocks.

I have used Internaxx for several years and so I'm wondering what your reservation about them is?

[Highway1]

Well their fees are very expensive when compared to the US brokers (even in comparison with their US branch, TD Ameritrade) and from a personal perspective I found their customer service to be really bad. When I moved from UAE to Mexico they demanded a lot of attested documentation couriered to them to 'prove' where I was resident, which I provided at great expense - and then when they had everything they wanted they turned around and said they dont operate accounts for Mexican residents and promptly closed my account.

Interactive Brokers on the other hand have been great.

[FREQUENTFLYER1234]

I use both Interactive Brokers and Internaxx.

IB is a little cheaper than Internaxx for trading costs.

I had no problems opening these accounts from within the UAE.

With both I am able to buy Irish Domiciled ETF’s (Allowing a reduced dividend withholding tax of 15% instead of the 30% when buying US domiciled funds) on the London Stock exchange from providers like Vanguard and iShares in multiple currencies.

I have built a low cost portfolio of index funds with an annual expense ratio of 0.22% plus my buying costs which I help to reduce by investing quarterly.

There is a ton of information out there if you want to research it or you could just read one of Andrew Hallam’s books to help get you started.

[giord]

Thank You & all for your inputs, greatly appreciated.

[johnjonesnine]

Rogue financial adviser convicted by Dubai court in landmark case!
A step in the right direction.

https://www.thenational.ae/uae/rogue-financial-adviser-convicted-by-dubai-court-in-landmark-case-1.700026

[Sameralzaim]

Be ware of this company.....
I have been victim of this company 12 years back. They approached me to sign up for their Vista Policy whixch I did and invested more than $ 70,000 in this policy. then I relocated to US where they did suspend the policy and did not allow me to take my money back or continue to contribute. they requested more than $ 15000 penalty to allow me to take my money and when I kept the policy, they charge more than $ 2000 annually as their fees while the policy freezed and they are doing no work for it. they provided.

Have tried to talk to them a lot but in vein and they keep on referring to fine prints in their terms and conditions that they never highlight it to the customers. and when I told them I will complain they said they are not regulated by European or US rules.

[johnjonesnine]

Hi Sameralzaim

Sorry to hear about your difficulties with Zurich International Life (ZIL).

You say that the policy was sold to you 12 years ago - that would make it 2005, yes?

I ask because in 2005 ZIL did deal with retail investors directly, as well as through brokers. After 2006 they only dealt with brokers, and the management of their sales department bought out that part of the business and set up Nexus Group, which is a broker:
https://www.nexusadvice.com/about/

If you dealt with ZIL directly (and there was no broker involved) then this is better because you have only one company to deal with, i.e ZIL.

ZIL is established in the Isle of Man and is regulated there by the Isle of Man Financial Services Authority (IOMFSA). You may be able to complain to the IOMFSA - they have a guide on their website:
https://www.iomfsa.im/media/1586/consumerbriefingcomplaints.pdf

I don't know if you have always been a US citizen/resident, or if you acquired this status since purchasing the savings plan, but this could be an important factor in framing that complaint.

Should ZIL have known all along that you were a US citizen/resident? Look back over the documents that you have (including emails). Did you ever mention a US address, or provide US documents (e.g. passport, bills etc) for identification purposes?

[Sameralzaim]

Thanks, Unfortunately, I bought my policy from Nexus... that was 2007.

I did few days back contacted Isle of Man Financial Services Authority (IOMFSA) and posted a complaint but just replied to me today stating that this is out of their jurisdiction as the policy was sold in UAE and not Isle of Man and it is before 2010 and their financial jurisdiction goes back to 2010. they have referred me to Dubai Financial Services Authority to complaint to.

It seems that Zurich using regulation gap to make sure that their sales practice are not actually subject to legal rules... I will try to write to DFSA and see.

[johnjonesnine]

Hi
There is no point in going to the DFSA, they do not regulate Nexus in Dubai. According to Nexus' website "Nexus Insurance Brokers LLC- regulated by the UAE Insurance Authority under registration number 207 and Commercial license number 583403."
https://www.nexusadvice.com/legal/

So it is the Insurance Authority that you need to contact, and they do have a complaints section on their website:
https://smartservices.ia.gov.ae/ecomplaint/ecomplaint/complaint?lang=en

The problem is that the Insurance Authority was only established in the past few years and, given that you bought the policy before that, they may decline to deal with it. Worth a try though.

As for the IOMFSA, I do think that they are being disingenuous in saying that their financial jurisdiction only goes back to 2010. The IOMFSA was created in by merging the previous regulators, being the Insurance and Pensions Authority (‘the IPA’) and the Financial Supervision Commission (‘the FSC’).

ZIL was regulated by the IPA before IOMFSA was created. Article 5(1) of the relevant Act provides that:
"The functions of the existingStatutory Boards and the Supervisor are transferred to the new Statutory Board."
http://www.tynwald.org.im/links/tls/SD/2015/2015-SD-0090.pdf

So the IOMFSA took over from and seamlessly continued the functions of the IPA (which in turn had been established in 1986).

I don't think the IOMFSA can wash their hands like this - can you please post the precise wording that they used?

[Sameralzaim]

This what they have wrote to me:

"based on the information you have provided to us; your complaint appear to be outside the jurisdiction of the Channel of Isle Ombudsman ("CIFO"), which would mean we are unable to review it.

CIFO is established by the Financial Services Ombudsman (Bailiwick of Guernsey) Law 2014 and the financial Service Ombudsman (Jersey) Law 2014 ("The laws") to resolve complaints about financial services. The reasons for rejecting a complaint are set out in the laws and CIFO policy on factors to be considered on rejecting complaints. this policy has been published in our website.

based on our review of the information you provided, we have concluded we are unable to review your complaint for the following reasons:

CIFO con only consider complaint about financial services provided in or from within the Channel Islands. your complaint appear to relate to the actions of Zurich International which is operating from UAE, in which we are unable to review the complaint. you may wish to contact appropriate financial sector ombudsman office or regulator in UAE. the contact information we have for Dubai Financial Services Authority is +971 4 3621500 (tel:+971 4 3621500).

in addition, the legislation that established CIFO's jurisdiction in Jersey does not permit us to review complaints arising from actions which occurred before 1 January 2010. your complaint appear to relate to an act which occurred on 2007, which would mean that we are unable to review it. "

[johnjonesnine]

I think you have been writing to the wrong jurisdiction.

This correspondence seems to be with the authorities in the Channel Islands, but Zurich International Life Ltd is an Isle of Man company:
https://www.zurichinternational.com/en/zurich-international-life/about-us/legal-entities

You need to complain to the Isle of Man Financial Services Authority.

[jamesindubai]

AES International are the same as everyone else

[APAW]

Hi all,

Doe anyone have any experience with W1 Investment group in Doha?

Thanks in advance,

[FREQUENTFLYER1234]

I’d suggest you read this book before seeing any advisors, signing up for or committing to anything.

https://www.amazon.com/Millionaire-Expat-Wealth-Living-Overseas/dp/1119411890

The $15 and few hours spent reading could potentially save you hundreds of thousands of dollars.

[johnjonesnine]

I had a look at their website.

I always think it's odd when the "About us" section of a website gives no information about the owners or management.

It also looks as if they are not regulated in Qatar, which means that you have no come-back if things go wrong (i.e. no Ombudsman to complain to, and probably no professional indemnity insurance).

The investment products that they sell are the same toxic crap that deVere and others sell. You know that when you see the words "appropriate tax wrapper" which always means a high-commission insurance policy.

I would say avoid and either read the excellent book recommended by Frequentflyer1234 above or go to a regulated fee-charging independent adviser in whatever country you come from.

[APAW]

Thank you both Frequentflyer1234 & johnjonesnine,

I've been here a few years now and have successfully managed to avoid DeVere, I just thought i'd put the feelers out there and see if anyone has had any experience with these guys. Currently I manage my own portfolio but am open to the idea of having some managed funds. I'll definitely check out that book, thanks once again guys.

[johnjonesnine]

DeVere has made a whopping settlement of $8m with the Securities and Exchanges Commission in the United States:
https://nypost.com/2018/06/04/brokerage-firm-agrees-to-8m-settlement-for-ripping-off-clients/

This settlement was related to QROPS business - the same type of business that DeVere does in the UAE:
https://www.devere-group.com/qrops/qrops-hmrc.aspx

If you have been sold a pension transfer scheme by deVere, or any of their ilk, you should read and research this story.

[jknechtel]

anson harris

May I ask how you managed to get your cash back? Complaining to whom and pulling which arguments?

Thanks!

[mavisbacon]

I 'invested' 100k with Guardian Wealth Management 4 years ago whilst in Qatar, and just got 101k back. Circa 0.25% PA. As far as I'm concerned it's a good result as I've got my initial investment back. Nowhere near my objective of keeping pace with inflation. It's been painful watching our money 'flatline' for the last 4 years with no attempt by Guardian to manage our money. From what I can see of it they are nothing more than salemen. They promise to 'actively manage' funds via their iguard protection, but what they actually do is simply dump our funds into a policy and then collect their charges. To add insult to injury it cost me over 3k to surrender the policy a year early. I don't know if anyone else has experience of them, but I strongly recommend giving them a wide berth.
Have a look-

https://cimg8.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1024x768/image_8422750682ac7c6fd498bd3fdb0d96589b71dffd.png

[Che Xindamail]

‘Hi, this is Jack, from Deveres here in West Bay, am I speaking to NN?’

This guy is working the phone in Doha at the moment.

[FREQUENTFLYER1234]

They’re now pushing UK property investments. I had one call the other day, I asked her if she was reading from a script. She turned sour very quickly!

[johnjonesnine]

Guardian Wealth Management have been hammered in Qatar:

"Qatar Financial Center Regulatory Authority (QFCRA) has banned directors of an insurance brokerage company that is primarily involved in selling long-term savings plans in Qatar to carry out their duties and fined them $400,000. QFCRA has imposed a penalty of $200,000 each on David Howell and John Hasberry, who were the directors of Guardian Wealth Management Qatar (GWMQ), which is now in liquidation."

https://thepeninsulaqatar.com/article/04/07/2019/QFC-Regulatory-Authority-fines-directors-of-wealth-management-firm-for-%E2%80%98serious-misconduct%E2%80%99

Be aware that these guys are still operating in UAE and possibly elsewhere.

[ZFT]

Has anyone any experience or comments about BLUESTAR-AGM apparently operating out of Hong Kong?

Thanks in advance

[johnjonesnine]

Have you more information? What sort of company is this? Do you have a link?

[ZFT]

They state they are an Offshore Investments specialist!

Here's their link https://bluestar-amg.com/

[johnjonesnine]

Their website says that “We are a British Owned, Hong Kong registered group, with the bulk of the operations in Mainland China and with satellite offices across Asia.”

So, although the company is registered in Hong Kong they do not seem to operate there – perhaps because Hong Kong is a regulated jurisdiction. In order to give financial advice in Hong Kong you must be approved by one of the Hong Kong regulators. I can find no evidence that Bluestar AG is regulated in Hong Kong – or anywhere else for that matter.

The registered address of the firm is Room 813 Holywood Plaza, 610 Nathan Road, Kowloon. A Google search indicates that there are a lot of companies operating out of that address – my guess is that it is a company formation/management office and the Bluestar has no physical presence at that address.

Bluestar AMG Holdings Limited is registered in Hong Kong, but I cannot see who the directors are without paying a fee. The website www.bluestar-amg.com was registered by a domain registry service provider and so we have no information about the owners.

One extraordinary feature (to me at least) of the website is that there is no mention of any individuals. No statement from the Board or the Management. I find that really odd – as if nobody wants their fingerprints on it. As for the services provided – its clear from their own brochure that it is the usual unit-linked insurance policies from Skandia, Zurich, RL360, Generali, Axa and Aviva:https://bluestar-amg.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/11/BLUESTARBROCHUREscreen.pdf

So, to summarise, Bluestar AMG is an unregulated seller of high commission toxic unit-linked savings plans, pretending to be a financial advisory firm.If you deal with them you will have no recourse to an ombudsman, they will have no professional indemnity insurance, no requirement to have a complaints procedure, there will be no regulatory controls on their sales practices, and their “advisers” will probably not have any relevant qualifications.

When it comes to retail investments I have an aversion to complexity – complexity makes it very difficult to understand what is going on, who is charging what, and how to unwind things. For arguments sake let’s assume you are Australian. If you deal with Bluestar advisor in China then you will have:

A British national;
Working for a Hong Kong company;
Operating in China;
Dealing with an Australian citizen;
Selling an insurance policy issued in the Isle of Man which is;
Invested in underlying funds in London, Luxembourg; Caymans etc.

That is six jurisdictions, six separate legal frameworks, between you and your money. That is way too complicated for me – I would run a mile from these guys. If your “financial adviser” wants to come on here and discuss any of this I will be happy to oblige!

(PS Sorry for the varying typeface)

[ZFT]

Thank you. Bears out my view on them too. At least others are now aware.

[Diane Bentley]

Hi PP Rumour Networks

Just to let you know that it's not just aviation workers getting scammed by the likes of deVere, but hundreds of people world-wide. DeVere keep getting fined and kicked out of one country, but then pop up in another. deVere are extremely litigious (and the reason they get away with it). I've had 2 'cease and desist' letters, but have taken legal advice and have been told that we have every right to review deVere in terms of the products they sell and their work ethic. We have a new Facebook Page - Financial Ruin by deVere Advisers in all Corners of the World, and a small group of us are posting our actual evidence of dealing with this company

When my husband and I were mis-sold by deVere in France, we know they had sent their salesman (Stuart Blake) to set up an office in Toulouse and specifically target Airbus employees, so we believe there could be other victims like us from there. Countries in addition to Europe that are prolific in, is the Middle East. They have been kicked out of the USA and some of Asia, the UK has stopped them from giving pension's advice, but I understand they are soon to be back, having teamed up under the Fidelius name and are going to give pension's advice to returning expats. If they don't stuff you when you are abroad, they'll get you on your return!

A truly dreadful company, causing misery to countless people all over the world, so we really need to unite and do something about it

[WB Driver]

Got burned by Zurich, stay VERY far away....:mad: